Preexistence

[terraricca]

Quote (gollamudi @ Nov. 18 2010,22:20)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 18 2010,10:52) Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 17 2010,17:45) Mike Boll, As to Matthew 22:44-46, I assure you Jesus is not just king of the Jews but rather he is King of everything in Heaven and on Earth.  The Jewish authorities, for the most part, and some of the people when prompted to, rejected him as king by putting him to death. To Kerwin and Adam: I believe you folks are missing the point of Matthew 22:44-46.  The Pharisees were expecting the Messiah to be ONLY the SON of David.  Jesus let them know that if the Messiah was ONLY the SON of David, David would not ever call him “My Lord”.  Look at his question.  “45 If then David calls him ‘Lord,’ how can he be his son?” Jesus is hinting that the Messiah is not REALLY the son of David, but only according to the flesh, as affirmed by Paul: NIV Romans 1:3 regarding his Son, who as to his human nature was a descendant of David, Now add this teaching of Jesus to Isaiah 11:10, Isaiah 11:10 In that day the Root of Jesse will stand as a banner for the peoples; the nations will rally to him, and his resting place will be glorious. You see Adam?  Even the OT teaches of the pre-existence of Jesus.  And that's not even mentioning Proverbs 8 or Micah 5. I wise man (Pierre ) reminded me that there are no contradictions in scripture – only things that we don't fully understand yet. You think the NT says Jesus created anything?  Look again.  And use the Greek words, not the English translation.  All things are FROM God, THROUGH Jesus. (1 Cor 8:6)  And that is all that the NT teaches, unless you read a trinitarian translation that uses the word “BY” instead of “THROUGH”.  But in using the word “BY”, the trinitarians don't think they are going against the OT that says only God created……..for they think Jesus IS that God who created.  But that's just the fantasy world they live in. Can either one of you guys answer me about the bread that CAME DOWN FROM HEAVEN?  The Jews definitely recognized that Jesus was saying he came down from heaven, so why don't you? Adam, I do understand your confusion.  But understand this: Proverbs 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding; You don't have to understand it all right now.  Just trust that our God is in control………and trust Him completely. Adam, if there are “contradictions” or anything else you want to discuss with me, hit me up.  But I like things “one point or scripture at a time”.  So if there's something in that long post you specifically want me to address, please post it again in a shorter post. peace and love, mike Hi brother Mike, Again you avoid my questions and tried to prove your ideas. You are not alone Christian here all of us are faithful Christians. We came here to debate on certain complicated issues. You quote only one side of the truth but we bring the other side where you never touched. As I told I am neutral on any concept of Christianity. I think rational not like many Christians who blindly follow their old misconceptions. Here I bring Matthew 22:44-46 44 The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, Till I put thine enemies underneath thy feet? 45 If David then calleth him Lord, how is he his son? 46 And no one was able to answer him a word, neither durst any man from that day forth ask him any more questions. Where is the so called preexistence here? I don't find any such think as you claim here. Jesus was telling if David calls Messiah Lord how could he be a son of him? Nothing wrong in that question because Messiah would be Lord of David or any great king of Israel. God will appoint Messiah as king of kings and Lord of Lords. It is the context of Psalm 110 you should see. No where preexistence of Messiah was meant in that psalm. Please read Jewish concepts on Messiah you will understand that they never understood Meesiah as we Christians do. He will be an ordinary human being like Moses as quoted from Deut 18:18. Again I quote from Isaiah 11: 1 A shoot will come up from the stump of Jesse;   from his roots a Branch will bear fruit. Where is this so called preexistence of Messiah as claim this verse. If you misinterpret scriptures who can help. N.T quotes this verse confusingly in Rev 22 as Jesus is the Root and the Offspring of David. I got vexed with such alleged doctrines. I quit for time being with such arguments to have some peace. Sorry for that. Peace to you Adam

Adam

most of your answers are ;in the respond to Gene ;

Nov 18-2010 – 18;37

Pierre

[Proclaimer]

Quote (Ed J @ Nov. 18 2010,14:13)

Quote (t8 @ Nov. 18 2010,12:06) EdJ John 15:27 And ye also shall bear witness (by the HolySpirit), because [[[ye]]] have been with me from the beginning. Is that not Jesus talking about his ministry on Earth. They were with him from the beginning of his ministry when at such time he called them. They were witnesses from the beginning. Not his birth, nor his existence as the Logos, but his ministry. Hi T8, Do you distance yourself from this verse too? Matt.16:24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. If not, why not? How about this one… John 16:14-5 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall show it unto you. All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall show it unto you. (Is this not witnessing for Jesus) God bless Ed J (Joshua 22:34) http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

I am not following you EdJ.

What?

[Ed J]

Quote (t8 @ Nov. 18 2010,16:34)

Quote (Ed J @ Nov. 18 2010,14:13) Quote (t8 @ Nov. 18 2010,12:06) EdJ John 15:27 And ye also shall bear witness (by the HolySpirit), because [[[ye]]] have been with me from the beginning. Is that not Jesus talking about his ministry on Earth. They were with him from the beginning of his ministry when at such time he called them. They were witnesses from the beginning. Not his birth, nor his existence as the Logos, but his ministry. Hi T8, Do you distance yourself from this verse too? Matt.16:24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. If not, why not? How about this one… John 16:14-5 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall show it unto you. All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall show it unto you. (Is this not witnessing for Jesus) God bless Ed J (Joshua 22:34) http://www.holycitybiblecode.org I am not following you EdJ. What?

Hi T8,

Let me ask you this…

Do you think we preexisted as well?

God bless
Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[shimmer]

Hi Adam.

How are you ?

Adam, when you first came here, how was your faith then ? Do you remember when…. why things changed for you ?

It helps. It helped me today. Think about it, let me know if you want.

Sometimes what we need is to 'rewind the tape' with our faith, it depends tho, think….. when was the strongest time of your faith……what is different ? and what changed it.

[gollamudi]

Quote (shimmer @ Nov. 18 2010,17:22)

Hi Adam. How are you ? Adam, when you first came here, how was your faith then ? Do you remember when…. why things changed for you ? It helps. It helped me today. Think about it, let me know if you want. Sometimes what we need is to 'rewind the tape' with our faith, it depends tho, think….. when was the strongest time of your faith……what is different ? and what changed it.

Hi Sis,
Greetings to you. Yea I came here some where in 2007 if I remember. I came here as a Trinitarian with full faith in the verbal inspiration of Holy scriptures both O.T and N.T. I read the wonderful article of brother T8 on Trinity and was attracted to join as member in this forum. As a believer or Christian my life has not changed much but as a rationlist I changed a lot. I read many books and articles on these complicated issues on Christian doctrines. I am satisfied with my research now. I found many new things which I never noticed in my Bible earlier. I no longer remain a blind follower of religion. I am much grown up in faith now. I don't regret what I did these few years. Infact I compiled a book on “The Quest for Real Christ” in 2009 which was the result of my long study for five to six years. I noticed our Bible is not uniform in its concepts rather it is diversive or divergent in its doctrines due to its different authors for different communities. I now become Christian skeptic and am with peace from all unending struggles which were going through mind earlier.

Thanks for your nice heartfelt responses.
With lots of love
Adam

[Proclaimer]

Quote (Ed J @ Nov. 18 2010,17:13)

Hi T8, Let me ask you this… Do you think we preexisted as well? God bless Ed J

It is possible, but I see no teaching in scripture to support it.

[Proclaimer]

Quote (gollamudi @ Nov. 18 2010,17:41)

Hi Sis, Greetings to you. Yea I came here some where in 2007 if I remember. I came here as a Trinitarian with full faith in the verbal inspiration of Holy scriptures both O.T and N.T. I read the wonderful article of brother T8 on Trinity and was attracted to join as member in this forum. As a believer or Christian my life has not changed much but as a rationlist I changed a lot. I read many books and articles on these complicated issues on Christian doctrines. I am satisfied with my research now. I found many new things which I never noticed in my Bible earlier. I no longer remain a blind follower of religion. I am much grown up in faith now. I don't regret what I did these few years. Infact I compiled a book on “The Quest for Real Christ” in 2009 which was the result of my long study for five to six years. I noticed our Bible is not uniform in its concepts rather it is diversive or divergent in its doctrines due to its different authors for different communities. I now become Christian skeptic and am with peace from all unending struggles which were going through mind earlier. Thanks for your nice heartfelt responses. With lots of love Adam

I believe you conclude this because you lack understanding.
The truth pierces the spirit from the soul, but when you spend too much time intellectually trying to work it all out, then you not only become confused due to our inferior position as being housed in clay jars, but limited from our Earthly perspective.

Can you imagine twin fetuses debating about what the world looks like. How much could they possibly understand.

What separates a true believer from an intellectual person is experience with God. If I were you, I would drop trying to figure it all out in your own understanding and get to know God. After all, understanding follows when you know him, not the other way round.

[shimmer]

Exactly t8, thats true Adam, as t8 says. Think about it.

[shimmer]

Hi Adam,

I said

Quote

“….. when was the strongest time of your faith……what is different ? and what changed it.”

You said

Quote

“Yea I came here some where in 2007 if I remember. I came here as a Trinitarian with full faith in the verbal inspiration of Holy scriptures both O.T and N.T.”

Did you feel better then, closer to God ?

Another poster here, (princess of the king) said this not long ago…

“Every person is born with the spirit, attaining this again is the goal, does not anyone understand that the faith of a child is the most precious, during this time in our lives is when we are the closest we will ever be.”

True aye.
Hope you'l be ok Adam.

[gollamudi]

Quote (t8 @ Nov. 18 2010,17:48)

Quote (gollamudi @ Nov. 18 2010,17:41) Hi Sis, Greetings to you. Yea I came here some where in 2007 if I remember. I came here as a Trinitarian with full faith in the verbal inspiration of Holy scriptures both O.T and N.T. I read the wonderful article of brother T8 on Trinity and was attracted to join as member in this forum. As a believer or Christian my life has not changed much but as a rationlist I changed a lot. I read many books and articles on these complicated issues on Christian doctrines. I am satisfied with my research now. I found many new things which I never noticed in my Bible earlier. I no longer remain a blind follower of religion. I am much grown up in faith now. I don't  regret what I did these few years. Infact I compiled a book on “The Quest for Real Christ” in 2009 which was the result of my long study for five to six years. I noticed our Bible is not uniform in its concepts rather it is diversive or divergent in its doctrines due to its different authors for different communities. I now become Christian skeptic and am with peace from all unending struggles which were going through mind earlier. Thanks for your nice heartfelt responses. With lots of love Adam I believe you conclude this because you lack understanding. The truth pierces the spirit from the soul, but when you spend too much time intellectually trying to work it all out, then you not only become confused due to our inferior position as being housed in clay jars, but limited from our Earthly perspective. Can you imagine twin fetuses debating about what the world looks like. How much could they possibly understand. What separates a true believer from an intellectual person is experience with God. If I were you, I would drop trying to figure it all out in your own understanding and get to know God. After all, understanding follows when you know him, not the other way round.

Hi brother T8,
Greetings to you. I know you responded very few times to my posts. So that is your conclusion on me. It is natural to conclude like that after reading my recent posts. I expected at least you could have left my experiences as a true believer of God and Christ. I felt bad when you commented on that. No problem brother I still feel I am having the spirit of God in me as our brother Gene utters here. I am a born again believer like any member in this forum. I speak in tongues like others. I spent hours in God's presence like others. I brought at least fifty people to Christ. I led many Bible studies. I can not boast that I experienced intercession with great agony in tears and groanings few times in my life. So you say I don't know God. What can I say brother you are at liberty to comment on this feeble brother.

But one thing I noticed most of us claim to say we are led by the spirit of God and have understanding of all scriptures. Can anybody convince even one other brother with his so called convictions of spirit of God. I heard it from many here. It is the tragedy my brother. A trinitarian will blame a non-trinitarian saying he is non-believer. A preexistence believer can blame unitarian for not believing scriptures. A unitarian can blame a skeptic like as me as non-believer. It is only relativety of one's conviction pose as true belief. But God knows who is who.

I don't blame you or anybody here. I don't regret about my findings. They are but true. Without wisdom and understanding nothing could be achieved even in the matters of religion. Rest I leave it to others to uphold to their own. In fact the example of twins in the womb you gave on ignorance can rightly be applied to those orthodox Christian fundamentalists who close their eyes to the outer world.

Nice talking and debating here on your website. If you permit I may continue otherwise I happily leave brother.

I love all brothers and sisters here.
Peace to all
Adam

[terraricca]

Quote (t8 @ Nov. 19 2010,00:48)

Quote (gollamudi @ Nov. 18 2010,17:41) Hi Sis, Greetings to you. Yea I came here some where in 2007 if I remember. I came here as a Trinitarian with full faith in the verbal inspiration of Holy scriptures both O.T and N.T. I read the wonderful article of brother T8 on Trinity and was attracted to join as member in this forum. As a believer or Christian my life has not changed much but as a rationlist I changed a lot. I read many books and articles on these complicated issues on Christian doctrines. I am satisfied with my research now. I found many new things which I never noticed in my Bible earlier. I no longer remain a blind follower of religion. I am much grown up in faith now. I don't regret what I did these few years. Infact I compiled a book on “The Quest for Real Christ” in 2009 which was the result of my long study for five to six years. I noticed our Bible is not uniform in its concepts rather it is diversive or divergent in its doctrines due to its different authors for different communities. I now become Christian skeptic and am with peace from all unending struggles which were going through mind earlier. Thanks for your nice heartfelt responses. With lots of love Adam I believe you conclude this because you lack understanding. The truth pierces the spirit from the soul, but when you spend too much time intellectually trying to work it all out, then you not only become confused due to our inferior position as being housed in clay jars, but limited from our Earthly perspective. Can you imagine twin fetuses debating about what the world looks like. How much could they possibly understand. What separates a true believer from an intellectual person is experience with God. If I were you, I would drop trying to figure it all out in your own understanding and get to know God. After all, understanding follows when you know him, not the other way round.

hi T8

would you also agree that the degree of doubts of someone in the word of God also plays an important role,

like a intellectual approach would be that HE looking to HIS understanding of the the word of God, what is impossible to do, beside understand what is mainly written,and would reject anything what seems not in line to HIS views ,what ever would seems to create confusion and do not make sense to HIM,would be also rejected,

now on the other side the true believer with is true faith,and deep in is hearth believes that the words written in the scriptures are really the words of GOD without doubts,

and so reading the word to understand what God try to say to him so that he may know the truth about him and the one he send,
in this way he will connect with the spirit of God to obtain understanding.

Pierre

[kerwin]

T8

You wrote:

Quote

He is the root and branch of David.

If you are speaking of the passage in Revelations It is written more along the lines of “He is the root and Offspring of David” according to the translation I have read.

I agree that he is the root of David because David believed God when God promised that from his descendents the Anointed would come.

I also agree that he is the Offspring of David as he is a descendent, born from and after the birth, of David.

You have yet to resolve how a descendent can be exist before their ancestor or even their parent and scripture does not contradict itself.

[Lightenup]

Quote (gollamudi @ Nov. 17 2010,23:00)

Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 18 2010,04:58) Hi Adam, You are welcome!  I appreciate your searching heart and I am glad to see that you have come away from the unitarian position.  Sometime the Lord may lead us again into deep discussion and I will look forward to that if it comes. Our friend Mandy has found more active things to do I'm sure and from what she last wrote, is attending a Catholic church but doesn't buy all they teach.  I think she needed a rest from all the confusion here.  May the Lord give you both and us all His perfect peace from the Prince of Peace-Jesus Christ. One thing that I have to say about darkness, darkness is only the absence of light and not a created thing.  Think about your shadow on a sunny day.  Your shadow is not something created but a result of you standing in the path of the light source.  I hope that helps God bless your search! Kathi Hi Sis Kathi, I appreciate your reply and I am thankful to you for encouraging my searching heart. Many can not do that. I am also thankful to you for giving information about Sis Mandy. I long to see her on Heavennet. But as you mentioned she may be right in choosing out of these unending debates for some time. Yea, I am free from any doctrinal bias now and I have become neutral. I am willing to see any new revelations like you used bring here earlier. You may be right in saying darkness need not be created rather it exists from the beginning so as to differentiate light. Love and peace to you Adam

Hi Adam,
I thought you might be interested in what Tertullian said about the light on day one:

Then, therefore, does the Word also Himself assume His own form and glorious garb, His own sound and vocal utterance, when God says, “Let there be light.” This is the perfect nativity of the Word, when He proceeds forth from God—formed by Him first to devise and think out all things under the name of Wisdom—“The Lord created or formed me as the beginning of His ways;” then afterward begotten, to carry all into effect—“When He prepared the heaven, I was present with Him.” Thus does He make Him equal to Him: for by proceeding from Himself He became His first-begotten Son, because begotten before all things; and His only-begotten also, because alone begotten of God, in a way peculiar to Himself, from the womb of His own heart—even as the Father Himself testifies: “My heart,” says He, “hath emitted my most excellent Word.” The Father took pleasure evermore in Him, who equally rejoiced with a reciprocal gladness in the Father’s presence: “Thou art my Son, to-day have I begotten Thee;” even before the morning star did I
beget Thee. The Son likewise acknowledges the Father, speaking in His own person, under the name of Wisdom: “The Lord formed Me as the beginning of His ways, with a view to His own works; before all the hills did He beget Me.”

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf03.v.ix.vii.html

Are you familiar with Tertullian?

[Proclaimer]

Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 18 2010,20:28)

T8 You wrote: Quote He is the root and branch of David. If you are speaking of the passage in Revelations It is written more along the lines of “He is the root and Offspring of David” according to the translation I have read. I agree that he is the root of David because David believed God when God promised that from his descendents the Anointed would come. I also agree that he is the Offspring of David as he is a descendent, born from and after the birth, of David. You have yet to resolve how a descendent can be exist before their ancestor or even their parent and scripture does not contradict itself.

The head of Christ is God and the head of the woman is the man and the head of man is Christ.

So all things were created through him and for him and creation is defined as being made by God through Christ.

Knowing that Christ existed in the form of God and emptied himself and existed in the flesh, we have 2 natures with which Christ existed. The first was divine nature and the second was flesh. He then returned to the glory that he had with the Father before the world began.

To recap, he existed as a divine being with God  and God created all things through him. When creation fell, the one whom God made all things through emptied himself and took on flesh and started life as a baby and grew into an adult in the same way we started life.

He then died and was taken up with God in the same glory that he had before.

This should explain it and it is all scriptural.

He was divine, became a man, and returned.

[Proclaimer]

Thanks for that quote from Tertullian, Lightenup.

[terraricca]

Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 19 2010,18:43)

Quote (gollamudi @ Nov. 17 2010,23:00) Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 18 2010,04:58) Hi Adam, You are welcome!  I appreciate your searching heart and I am glad to see that you have come away from the unitarian position.  Sometime the Lord may lead us again into deep discussion and I will look forward to that if it comes. Our friend Mandy has found more active things to do I'm sure and from what she last wrote, is attending a Catholic church but doesn't buy all they teach.  I think she needed a rest from all the confusion here.  May the Lord give you both and us all His perfect peace from the Prince of Peace-Jesus Christ. One thing that I have to say about darkness, darkness is only the absence of light and not a created thing.  Think about your shadow on a sunny day.  Your shadow is not something created but a result of you standing in the path of the light source.  I hope that helps God bless your search! Kathi Hi Sis Kathi, I appreciate your reply and I am thankful to you for encouraging my searching heart. Many can not do that. I am also thankful to you for giving information about Sis Mandy. I long to see her on Heavennet. But as you mentioned she may be right in choosing out of these unending debates for some time. Yea, I am free from any doctrinal bias now and I have become neutral. I am willing to see any new revelations like you used bring here earlier. You may be right in saying darkness need not be created rather it exists from the beginning so as to differentiate light. Love and peace to you Adam Hi Adam, I thought you might be interested in what Tertullian said about the light on day one: Then, therefore, does the Word also Himself assume His own form and glorious garb, His own sound and vocal utterance, when God says, “Let there be light.” This is the perfect nativity of the Word, when He proceeds forth from God—formed by Him first to devise and think out all things under the name of Wisdom—“The Lord created or formed me as the beginning of His ways;” then afterward begotten, to carry all into effect—“When He prepared the heaven, I was present with Him.” Thus does He make Him equal to Him: for by proceeding from Himself He became His first-begotten Son, because begotten before all things; and His only-begotten also, because alone begotten of God, in a way peculiar to Himself, from the womb of His own heart—even as the Father Himself testifies: “My heart,” says He, “hath emitted my most excellent Word.” The Father took pleasure evermore in Him, who equally rejoiced with a reciprocal gladness in the Father’s presence:  “Thou art my Son, to-day have I begotten Thee;” even before the morning star did I beget Thee. The Son likewise acknowledges the Father, speaking in His own person, under the name of Wisdom: “The Lord formed Me as the beginning of His ways, with a view to His own works; before all the hills did He beget Me.” http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf03.v.ix.vii.html Are you familiar with Tertullian?

kathi

tertulian,look like he understand that THT WORD was the light God created in the beginning???

would that mean God was in the dark before creation of the Word???

Ps 94:9 Does he who implanted the ear not hear?
Does he who formed the eye not see?

Ps 94:9 Does he who implanted the ear not hear?
Does he who formed the eye not see?

Job 28:20 “Where then does wisdom come from?
Where does understanding dwell?

Job 28:28 And he said to man,
‘The fear of the Lord—that is wisdom,
and to shun evil is understanding.
will proclaim the name of Jehovah before thee; and I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will show mercy on whom I will show mercy.
Ex 33:20 And he said, Thou canst not see my face; for man shall not see me and live

Pierre

[Proclaimer]

Quote (terraricca @ Nov. 19 2010,12:31)

would that mean God was in the dark before creation of the Word???

Good question.

God is light and there is no darkness in him.
So where did the darkness come from?

Another view is that the light is not the sun or the logos, but light on the Earth. After the atmosphere cleared up (post the volcanic stage) light hit the Earth thereby allowing life to live on Earth.

It appears that the focus in Genesis is the Earth itself. So we might need to look at what is being said from that perspective.

This is another topic of course, so maybe if we want to expand on it, it could have its own topic.

[shimmer]

Your all wrong, I can prove it with scripture which I will later…… the light is love, the dark is hate. Men prefered to live in the dark (hate)

Hatred brings everything else with it, envy, jealousy, lies, fighting, murder, war, destruction…………. etc

God is love, The light which was in the beginning. The dark has never overcome it.

[Lightenup]

t8 and Pierre and Shimmer,
I think that God certainly is/was always Light (spiritual not physical). Think of the sun lit up but its rays not turned on yet. “Let there be light” turned on the rays (the Son) from the sun (the Father) who was always lit up just had nothing to emit rays to till something was created. When it finally got time to create He said “let there be light” and He begot the rays (the Light of/from Light-the Son).

[mikeboll64]

Quote (gollamudi @ Nov. 18 2010,15:20)

Hi brother Mike, Again you avoid my questions and tried to prove your ideas. You are not alone Christian here all of us are faithful Christians.

Hi Adam,

You said:

Quote

Hi brother Mike, Again you avoid my questions and tried to prove your ideas. You are not alone Christian here all of us are faithful Christians.

It was certainly not my intention to either avoid any scriptures or make it seem like I'm somehow more Christian than you are.  You have led 50 people to Christ?  Wow!  That is impressive!  

The point you are missing on Matthew is that Jesus is plainly teaching that he could not be merely the “son” of David or David wouldn't call him “my Lord”.  Isaiah mentions someone who is the Root of Jesse and someone who is the Branch of Jesse.  Revelation 22:16 ties them both together by Jesus saying he is both the Root and the Offspring of David. Now if Jesus substitutes “offspring” for the original word “branch”, then it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out what “root” stands for.  Paul also ties into this thought by saying, “Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of the Messiah”.  Why would he say “the HUMAN ancestry” Adam?  Doesn't that sound a bit odd if that's the only ancestry Jesus ever had?  Paul also says, “regarding his Son, who as to his earthly life was a descendant of David”.  Again, why even mention “earthly” as if there was any other life?

Look, if you don't agree about these, then just answer these two simple scriptures for me please.

John 8 NWT
56 Abraham YOUR father rejoiced greatly in the prospect of seeing my day, and he saw it and rejoiced.” 57 Therefore the Jews said to him: “You are not yet fifty years old, and still you have seen Abraham?” 58 Jesus said to them: “Most truly I say to YOU, Before Abraham came into existence, I have been.” 59 Therefore they picked up stones to hurl [them] at him; but Jesus hid and went out of the temple.

Adam, is it clear that the Jews understood Jesus to be saying he literally saw Abraham because he was alive during Abraham's day?  Yes or No?

John 6 NIV
41 At this the Jews there began to grumble about him because he said, “I am the bread that came down from heaven.” 42 They said, “Is this not Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How can he now say, ‘I came down from heaven’?”

Adam, is it clear that the Jews understood Jesus to be saying that he literally came down from heaven? Yes or No?

Adam, if you ever want to discuss a scripture, then let's do it.  You were gone for a while, but I actually started threads about some individual pre-existent scriptures.  But if you can read, then John 6 is all you even need.  For Jesus clearly and plainly says he came down from heaven.  The Jews understood exactly what he was saying.  So if Jesus actually said it, and there is confirmation that that is what he was really saying, then what more do you need?

peace and love,
mike

[Author]

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