Preexistence

[Baker]

Quote (Ed J @ Nov. 16 2010,16:45)

Quote (Baker @ Nov. 15 2010,09:02) Gene!  I don't believe in the trinity and I don't believe like WJ or any organized Church either.  They believe that Jesus always existed, I don't.  There is a big difference…. Col 1:15   Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: Rev 3:14 ¶ And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God; Rev 19:13   And he [was] clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.   Rev 19:14   And the armies [which were] in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.   Rev 19:15   And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.   Rev 19:16   And he hath on [his] vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.   It is this Scripture that I believe that John 1:1 is what became Jesus, in verse 14 Jhn 1:1 ¶ In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.   Jhn 1:2   The same was in the beginning with God.   Jhn 1:3   All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.   This also says in the beginning, the beginning of the creation of God….Just like Rev. 3:14 If you don't want to believe this, that is up to you, I am not sinning by believing Jesus was the firstborn of all  creation…. That's it…..Irene 44 and counting

Ed, I find it amazing, if I posted all those Scriptures, like you said I did, that then you and others still ignore them…..And why? What I wrote in my last post is not all of those Scriptures that prove the preexisting of Jesus either….all together there are over 30 Scriptures that are in the debate tread of the preexisting of Jesus.
I also find it interesting that Mike and myself are being criticized by those that don't believe in those Scriptures and ignoring them…
And that is just OK with me…..I will continue doing so, until the cows come home or until some of you stop ignoring them. And that you and others except them or at least tell me why they are not what they say… Peace Irene

[Baker]

Quote (gollamudi @ Nov. 16 2010,14:33)

Hi Sis Irene and brothers Gene & Kerwin, I appreciate your replies for my post on contradictions in the Bible. As you too noticed any doctrine can be supported by the written word of the Bible. There may be certain imbalance in finding the scriptures to suit your own ideas but no one can be right when compared to other's views. I found it from the unending debates here on Heavennet especially on Trinity, Preexistence, Free Will etc. Most of us claim to be led by spirit of God if so why others are not accepting our views? As per Jewish expectation when Messiah comes he will convince all of them with God's word and infact they will be taught by God. If the Messiah had already come why not this happening on this earth? Why havoc among brothern? Why there is no peace on earth? These are the questions running in my mind. I hope you will notice them too. Peace and love Adam

Adam!  You and others who do nit believe in over 30 Scriptures that tell me that the preexisting of Jesus and the trinity can be either proven right or wrong…Nobody up to date have proven the preexisting wrong…..And except for one Scripture against several other I can prove the trinity wrong…..Can you prove the preexisting wrong? Let me hear it…Peace Irene

[kerwin]

To all,

Preexistence has been proved wrong simply because a child does not exist before its parent with the exception of time travel. Those who choose to accept that God is a God of confusion are those who choose to believe Scripture can be broken to support their doctrine. When someone chooses such a path they can not be reasoned with.

Telling the truth offends people and in this case I see nothing being gained by so doing. Since this is the case I prefer silence to squabbling over a point with someone who hit their point of irrationality.

Preexistence only indirectly effects the message of the gospel and the main issues are more important to resolve first and more peacefully.

[terraricca]

Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 17 2010,17:19)

To all, Preexistence has been proved wrong simply because a child does not exist before its parent with the exception of time travel.  Those who choose to accept that God is a God of confusion are those who choose to believe Scripture can be broken to support their doctrine.  When someone chooses such a path they can not be reasoned with.   Telling the truth offends people and in this case I see nothing being gained by so doing.  Since this is the case I prefer silence to squabbling over a point with someone who hit their point of irrationality. Preexistence only indirectly effects the message of the gospel and the main issues are more important to resolve first and more peacefully.

kerwin

you absolutely right,since we know mothers do not carry live but the father does ,so it is true Christ was not born before God his father,
and this is so absolutely true.

Pierre

[Proclaimer]

So according to you, it is impossible that the messiah's origins are from ancient times, that he was the Word that existed with God and that he emptied himself and came in the flesh and is now in the glory that he had with the Father before the world begun.

Yes certainly impossible with you, but not with God.

John 1:3
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

John 8:58
“I tell you the truth,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!”

Micah 5:2
“But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times.”

Philippians 2:5-11
5 Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
7 but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness.
8 And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death even death on a cross!
9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name,
10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

John 17:5
And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

Jude 1:25
to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.

I choose to believe scripture and so do others here. You have to respect the fact that we choose to believe scripture over other opinions.

[mikeboll64]

Adam:

Quote

1.If Jesus is the light then God is light thereby Jesus is God. Is that you mean?

6 There was a man sent from God whose name was John. 7 He came as a witness to testify concerning that light, so that through him all might believe.

Did John the Baptist come as a witness to God who was coming, or Jesus?

Adam:

Quote

2.If Jesus is the light then God created light first in the beginning thereby Jesus is the first creation of God as our sister LightenUp(Kathy) often claims here. Is that you mean?

Jesus is most definitely the “firstborn of all creation”.  So yes, he was the first being God ever created.  But Kathi doesn't claim this.  She has a problem with Jesus being a “creation”, although he says in Rev 3:14 that he is the beginning of the creation of God.

Adam:

Quote

3.Jesus said you are the light of the world if so disciples are also equal to Jesus in self same way. Is that you mean.

Jesus was saying the disciples would now be the light, since he was going back to heaven.  They chose the light over the darkness.  And Jesus taught them to not cover the light with a bowl, but to let it shine on all they could.  They were (and we still are) the “continuation” of the light that God sent into the world in the form of Jesus Christ.

Adam:

Quote

4.If Jesus is the bread of life that came from God and every word(impersonal) that comes out from God is bread that gives life them Jesus must be the word of God(impersonal) that came from heaven. Is that you mean?

Adam, here's where scriptural words will not help if you don't use common sense.  The King of Abyssinia has a spokesman.  That spokesman's title is “the word of the King”.  Jesus' title as God's head Spokeman is likewise “The Word of God”.  But you have to understand from context whether the scriptures are talking about God's spoken words, or God's Spokesman.  John 1:14 should help.  Can a literal word become flesh, dwell among us, and have the glory of an only begotten Son from the Father?  Of course not.  But there is a person that fits that description, isn't there?  Use your common sense on this one Adam.

And you kind of glossed over the “bread of life” scriptures there.  Could you address the 3 points I put at the end of that post, please?  I'm especially interested in your take on the fact that the Jews completely understood that Jesus was saying he came down from heaven.  They just didn't know how to take it.  But they understood that is what he was saying.  Why can't YOU understand that Jesus was saying he was the bread of life THAT CAME DOWN FROM HEAVEN?

Adam:

Quote

Here the prophet was none but Jesus as per Peter's sermon in Acts 2-3. Through Jesus the prophet God wanted speak to people of Israel.

For this point, you will have to remember that Jesus was both the Branch……AND THE ROOT of Jesse.  It was a hard teaching for the Pharisees too, so don't feel so all alone.  Here's how Jesus taught them that the Messiah was both AFTER and BEFORE David:

Matthew 22:44-46
41 While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them, 42 “What do you think about the Messiah? Whose son is he?”
  “The son of David,” they replied.

43 He said to them, “How is it then that David, speaking by the Spirit, calls him ‘Lord’? For he says,

  44 “‘The Lord said to my Lord:
  “Sit at my right hand
until I put your enemies
  under your feet.”'

  45 If then David calls him ‘Lord,’ how can he be his son?” 46 No one could say a word in reply, and from that day on no one dared to ask him any more questions.

What would YOU say Jesus was teaching the Pharisees in this passage Adam?

Like you, they were thinking the Messiah would simply be FROM the line of David.  But they didn't take Isaiah 11:10 and Micah 5:2 into consideration.  Unlike you, in their defense, they didn't at that time have all the many scriptures that came later that we all have at our disposal.  But what they did have was Jesus pointing out the flaw in their reasoning, and they could say nothing in answer to him.  He spoke scripturally, and they remained silent in their obvious error and misunderstanding.

Adam:

Quote

If Christianity is true monotheism I don't think John meant 'word' was separate person from God. If it so he could have meant two Godly beings existed from the beginning.

Adam, don't get hung up on the word “god”.  It simply meant a “mighty one”.  We have only ONE Almighty One, but the scriptures are full of others being called “mighty one”.  Don't you ever wonder about Isaiah 9:6?  Who do you think Jehovah is calling “mighty god” here?  Of course Jesus is “a god” or “mighty one”.  But he is not “THE God”, or “THE Almighty One”.  How about John 1:18?  Jesus is called “the only begotten god”.  

So yes, the Word who became flesh and had the GLORY OF AN ONLY BEGOTTEN SON FROM THE FATHER was obviously Jesus.  He is also the Light that came INTO the world that was made through him.  He is also the bread that came DOWN FROM HEAVEN.  

I'll await your response to my three points in the bread post.

peace and love,
mike

[mikeboll64]

Quote (gollamudi @ Nov. 16 2010,19:23)

Please see how our brother Mike challenges people on this pre-existece as if he alone is true.

That's a cop-out Adam.  All I, Irene and Pierre and t8 do is post scripture after scripture.  If you don't believe the scriptures, then may God help you.  And if you are willing, like Gene, to say John 17:5 refers to the glory the “thought of Jesus in God's head” had, then may God grant you more common sense.

Don't take it out on me because the scriptures teach a truth that makes you feel less able to accomplish what Jesus did.

I'm not saying “I alone am true.”  I'm saying “Scripture alone is true” – whether or not it fits into your own “wishes”.

mike

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Baker @ Nov. 17 2010,09:25)

I also find it interesting that Mike and myself are being criticized by those that don't believe in those Scriptures and ignoring them… And that is just OK with me…..I will continue doing so, until the cows come home or until some of you stop ignoring them.

You GO, girl!

I'm right there with you Irene.

peace and love,
mike

[mikeboll64]

Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 17 2010,10:19)

To all, Preexistence has been proved wrong simply because a child does not exist before its parent with the exception of time travel.

Hi Kerwin,

Please tell me what you think Jesus was teaching the Pharisees in Matthew 22:44-46.

Thanks.

mike

[mikeboll64]

Quote (terraricca @ Nov. 17 2010,10:32)

you absolutely right,since we know mothers do not carry live but the father does ,so it is true Christ was not born before God his father, and this is so absolutely true.

Good one, Pierre.

[gollamudi]

Quote (shimmer @ Nov. 16 2010,19:32)

OK Adam, thats good, your doing well, your doing OK, I pray that God be with you and keep you safe from all the worry and confusion, and for both of us, because I need that too. We will be ok Adam.

Hi Sis I am happy that you share my feelings.

Much love to you
Adam

[gollamudi]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Nov. 17 2010,01:58)

Adam………….Perfect Post Brother, you have said it rightly and clearly, God blesses you brother and gives you recall to lay straight his words, Man did indeed reject GOD and GOD then Spoke to us through Men and one of was the SON OF MAN < Jesus our brother. Digging through all the confusion takes work as Kerwin, Shimmer, and you both do and God does reveal his truth to those who truly seek it. Keep up the good work brother. You have it right brother.Alway remember "THE SPIRIT ITSELF BEARS WITNESS WITH OUR SPIRIT THAT WE ARE THE SONS OF THE LIVING GOD". This witness is the Spirit (intellect)  of THE TRUTH,  all WHO HAVE THIS SPIRIT (INTELLECT) (IN) KNOW THE (SOUND ) OF THE TRUTH.  Let the Spirit have its perfect work in you brother. Stand firm in what it reveals to you and you will be a vessel that the LORD our GOD will work through. peace and love to you and yours Adam………………………gene

Thanks brother Gene for your positive comments.

Love and peace to you
Adam

[gollamudi]

Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 17 2010,07:15)

Hi Adam, It has been awhile since we talked.  I feel really tired at the moment but I did see that you wrote this about what I believe is possible and I just wanted to clarify something about that. you said: Quote 2.If Jesus is the light then God created light first in the beginning thereby Jesus is the first creation of God as our sister LightenUp(Kathy) often claims here. Is that you mean? I do not think that Jesus is the first creation of God.  I don't consider Jesus as being created before the ages but begotten after a kind who was God.  God beget the begotten God.  Jesus is the firstBORN and the first to be born had to come from birth, not creation.  I do still think that it was possible for Jesus to be begotten when God said “Let there be light.” Anyway, I just wanted to clarify that.   I hope for you to find the peace you long for, Kathi

Hi Sis Kathy,
Greetings to you. Yea that's a really long span of time since I spoke to you. I am sorry for quoting you without your consent. I appreciate your love and peace towards me. I like your way of telling that Jesus was begotten by God (asexually) but was not created as many non-trinitarians claim here. 'Let there be light' that might be the point of Jesus birth as you claim. I always have doubt on this whether darkness was born or created by God first since Gen 1:1 say that there was already darkness before God spoke anything. Any how I leave it you.

Nice to see you continue on Heavennet. What about Mandy?
Hope things are OK on your side.

Much love and peace to you
Adam

[gollamudi]

Quote (Baker @ Nov. 17 2010,09:32)

Quote (gollamudi @ Nov. 16 2010,14:33) Hi Sis Irene and brothers Gene & Kerwin, I appreciate your replies for my post on contradictions in the Bible. As you too noticed any doctrine can be supported by the written word of the Bible. There may be certain imbalance in finding the scriptures to suit your own ideas but no one can be right when compared to other's views. I found it from the unending debates here on Heavennet especially on Trinity, Preexistence, Free Will etc. Most of us claim to be led by spirit of God if so why others are not accepting our views? As per Jewish expectation when Messiah comes he will convince all of them with God's word and infact they will be taught by God. If the Messiah had already come why not this happening on this earth? Why havoc among brothern? Why there is no peace on earth? These are the questions running in my mind. I hope you will notice them too. Peace and love Adam Adam!  You and others who do nit believe in over 30 Scriptures that tell me that the preexisting of Jesus and the trinity can be either proven right or wrong…Nobody up to date have proven the preexisting wrong…..And except for one Scripture against several other I can prove the trinity wrong…..Can you prove the preexisting wrong? Let me hear it…Peace Irene

Hi Sis Irene,
Thanks for your response to my post above. In fact I appreciate your patience in quoting this set of scriptures which support pre-existence of Jesus. I accept now that N.T talk about certain degree of Jesus' pre-existence. At the same time it also supports his beginnings from his birth through his mother. I am neutral here I don't support any doctrine here whether trinitarian, pre-existence or unitarianism. I now see there is confusion in our source that is our Bible. But you people don't agree with me since you all believe verbal inspiration of scriptures which I doubt now. Any how my replies to brother Mike will reflect my beliefs.

Thanks and love to you
Adam

[terraricca]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 17 2010,20:11)

Quote (terraricca @ Nov. 17 2010,10:32) you absolutely right,since we know mothers do not carry live but the father does ,so it is true Christ was not born before God his father, and this is so absolutely true.  Good one, Pierre.

Mike

it is sad to see that many do not understand who is Jesus Christ and they do not understand that he is the son of God,
they do not understand what he is,why he came,why it was him who came,wen it at to be then and not now,and they do not regard the word of God has the word of God,not from the hearth,only lips service.and carnal feelings.

Pierre

[gollamudi]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 17 2010,13:04)

Quote (gollamudi @ Nov. 16 2010,19:23) Please see how our brother Mike challenges people on this pre-existece as if he alone is true. That's a cop-out Adam.  All I, Irene and Pierre and t8 do is post scripture after scripture.  If you don't believe the scriptures, then may God help you.  And if you are willing, like Gene, to say John 17:5 refers to the glory the “thought of Jesus in God's head” had, then may God grant you more common sense. Don't take it out on me because the scriptures teach a truth that makes you feel less able to accomplish what Jesus did. I'm not saying “I alone am true.”  I'm saying “Scripture alone is true” – whether or not it fits into your own “wishes”. mike

Hi brother Mike,
I appreciate your patience in replying my post above. A couple of words about me first before I proceed further. I came here to this forum as a Trinitarian after being attracted by much debated article on Trinity written by brother T8 (I don't know his real name so far). I came across loving brothers like Gene, Nick, Jerry, Kerwin etc and sisters like Mandy, Irene, Kathy, Karmarie etc. I enjoyed their arguments and clarification here. I started leaving my old beliefs of Trinity, divinity of Jesus etc. I unlearned much of my old misconceptions and started learning them afresh. At one point I oriented towards unitarianism but I left it since it could not give me proper clarification on certain scriptures. I now become oriented towards Jewish monotheism which was the base religion for Christianity. So you can find me almost neutral in my arguments on various topics.

Coming to your response on my post: You cleverly left out certain scriptures I quoted in my post which do not support any amount of pre-existence of human Jesus. My beliefs are mostly oriented on O.T than N.T which I find deviated from original concepts on God and His Messiah including satan. I agree N.T talks about certain degree of pre-existence as you, Sis Irene, brother T8 and others claim here. But that doesn't mean it is the true doctrine. I can also say brothers like Gene and Kerwin are right in supporting non-literal preexistence especially based on certain scriptures like 1 Pet 1:19-20, Eph 1:4-5 etc. You quoted Jesus' argument on Messiah being the Lord of king David who being the forefather of him. I don't get confused on such misconception of Jewish people on that because Messiah being the Lord of all kings in whom God would rest his authority. So David being an ordinary king would naturally give honour to him not that he was preexisting to him physically. I can quote the example of John 10 where Jewish people misunderstood Jesus' divinity and equality with God but you and I know that they were wrong which also was clarified by Jesus himself stating that even judges who were appointed by God can be called as gods.

The problem here is how can a person (being) who was preexisting his birth can be real human as N.T scholar John Knox rightly quotes “there can be humanity without prexistence and there can be divinity without humanity; there is no way having them both together”.

I quote here what the author of Hebrews say in Chap 5:
4 No one takes this honor upon himself but only when called by God, just as Aaron was.
5 In the same way, it was not Christ who glorified himself in becoming high priest, but rather the one who said to him: “You are my son; this day I have begotten you”;
6 just as he says in another place: 4 “You are a priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek.”
7 In the days when he was in the flesh, he offered prayers and supplications with loud cries and tears to the one who was able to save him from death, 5 and he was heard because of his reverence.
8 Son though he was, 6 he learned obedience from what he suffered;
9 and when he was made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him,

If you see these verses you can find how human like us could learn obedience and was made perfect by his obedience by God. I wonder how a preexisting being could unlearn his previous origin and started learning like baby and could become mature as the N.T claims. Whole O.T claims that God Yahweh alone was the creator and none besides when He created everything. But N.T claims some how this Jesus was involved in God's creation. How can I understand this contradiction in the basic doctrine of creation?

Again I take the example of John 17:5 where Jesus claimed to have had glory before the foundations of the world. If so how other scriptures like Acts 2:23
“Now he is exalted to the place of highest honor in heaven, at God's right hand. And the Father, as he had promised, gave him the Holy Spirit to pour out upon us, just as you see and hear today.”
and also Heb 1:3-4, Acts 5:31, Rom 1:3 claim that he was exalted by God at crucifixion and resurrection. Why not Jesus asked God to return back give glory which he had prior to his birth on this earth instead of asking for glory which he had before the foundations of world? I find holes in this doctrine of preexisting glory. If he was already having glory it is ridiculous to claim that he was exalted by God when he suffered with obedience rather he earned this glory.

This is where I am fed up with Christian religion and now become skeptic and neutral towards any biblical doctrine.
I hope you will understand my agony.

Thanks and peace to you
Adam

[Baker]

Quote (gollamudi @ Nov. 17 2010,15:39)

Quote (Baker @ Nov. 17 2010,09:32) Quote (gollamudi @ Nov. 16 2010,14:33) Hi Sis Irene and brothers Gene & Kerwin, I appreciate your replies for my post on contradictions in the Bible. As you too noticed any doctrine can be supported by the written word of the Bible. There may be certain imbalance in finding the scriptures to suit your own ideas but no one can be right when compared to other's views. I found it from the unending debates here on Heavennet especially on Trinity, Preexistence, Free Will etc. Most of us claim to be led by spirit of God if so why others are not accepting our views? As per Jewish expectation when Messiah comes he will convince all of them with God's word and infact they will be taught by God. If the Messiah had already come why not this happening on this earth? Why havoc among brothern? Why there is no peace on earth? These are the questions running in my mind. I hope you will notice them too. Peace and love Adam Adam!  You and others who do nit believe in over 30 Scriptures that tell me that the preexisting of Jesus and the trinity can be either proven right or wrong…Nobody up to date have proven the preexisting wrong…..And except for one Scripture against several other I can prove the trinity wrong…..Can you prove the preexisting wrong? Let me hear it…Peace Irene Hi Sis Irene, Thanks for your response to my post above. In fact I appreciate your patience in quoting this set of scriptures which support pre-existence of Jesus. I accept now that N.T talk  about certain degree of Jesus' pre-existence. At the same time it also supports his beginnings from his birth through his mother. I am neutral here I don't support any doctrine here whether trinitarian, pre-existence or unitarianism. I now see there is confusion in our source that is our Bible. But you people don't agree with me since you all believe verbal inspiration of scriptures which I doubt now. Any how my replies to brother Mike will reflect my beliefs. Thanks and love to you Adam

Adam, then you are not a Christian, if you deny the Bible being the words of God.  The Bible is our basis of Faith.  We can go there and see what is right and what is wrong.  The doctrine of the trinity is wrong.  To say also that all are doctrines is wrong.  The preexisting of Jesus is plainly written in the Bible.  While the trinity, except for one Scripture, you cannot prove in  the Bible. That makes a big difference to me….So you also don't believe that Christ has come.  He will come again and set all straight.  The first time He came nobody excepted Him.  Only a few, like the Apostles.  Most that did in the first three centuries died a bloody and cruel dead, except for John who was exiled to the Island of Petmus, where He wrote Revelation……You are not a Christian you are a Jew at heart.  So what are you doing here??? To give us a hard time?  Putting up articles like you just did??  It was also God's plan for Jesus to come and die for us, so we can live.  And you want to tell God, what He did or not do?? It is all written in the Bible.  You rather believe men?  
Sorry my friend, you are totally wrong…..

Mat 15:9   But in vain they do worship me, teaching [for] doctrines the commandments of men.  

Peace Irene

In a first post Adam made He said that the Messiah has not come yet.  That is the post I responded to.  In the mean time He changed His mind and made another post, where He obviously changed Hid mind.  Read it yourself….Irene

[kerwin]

T8,

You can say all things are possible for God and that is true but he will not do anything evil. So for Jesus to be born before Mary means he could only be reborn from here. Scripture does not state that is the case but rather states that he was revealed to the world at Bethlehem.

The alternative solution is that Jesus travelled back in time and thus existed before his mother. That works if you do not believe he created the world since such a belief introduces a paradox which is what we are attempting to move in order that scripture does not contradict itself.

You are suggesting that Jesus conception and birth are a violation of the laws of nature that God put into place. I have great doubts as I know of none of Jesus’ miracles, including his resurrection, which violates the laws of nature. God has his reasons for establishing those laws and he can change them though I know of no case when he does.

It is true that by the Word of God the old creation came to be. It is also true that the Spirit of God is the active force of God and so it implemented God’s Word. In addition it is true that the new creation is done through Jesus by his act of righteousness. These points’ scripture is clear on.

I agree that Jesus is superior to Abraham. That after all was the point Jesus was attempting to make that the Jew misinterpreted to mean he was born before Abraham. Jesus was clarifying what he actually meant.

Jesus did come from Bethlehem Ephrathah and his Spirit comes from heaven where it is God and is with God and has always been. It is true that God planned for Jesus before the creation of the world and thus Jesus originated in the mind of God to be reveled when the time is right.

Jesus has an attitude like God and so chose to humble himself and serve others even though he was there superior.

God glorified Jesus with the title and position of King of everything in heaven and earth before he created Jesus in Mary’s womb because predestined him for that position. He only made him King after Jesus’ death and resurrection and Jesus took his throne after his ascension.

To the only God our Savior is glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore!

Jude 1:25 is one I desire some time for as I have not yet consulted God about. It seems to have and internal contradiction in the clause “before all ages” disagrees with “now and forevermore”. In addition it seems to conflict with Jesus own words in Matthew 28 that he has been made Lord of everything in heaven and on earth.

What scriptures do you believe? Certainly not the ones you quoted. What I see is you believe in a God of confusion. That is your choice and I see no reason to directly press you in a point where you are still subject to the chains of Satan. I myself have not won free of his chains as yet. I merely hope to as soon as possible given my reluctance to surrender myself to God despite my desire to do so. It is my hope that in time your eyes are opened and you choose to escape all of the evil one’s chains. I hope the same for me.

[kerwin]

Mike Boll,

As to Matthew 22:44-46, I assure you Jesus is not just king of the Jews but rather he is King of everything in Heaven and on Earth. The Jewish authorities, for the most part, and some of the people when prompted to, rejected him as king by putting him to death.

[terraricca]

Kerwin

there are a few Fla's in you definition;
HERE IS ONE;;
Jesus did come from Bethlehem Ephrathah and( his Spirit comes from heaven where it is God and is with God and has always been).( It is true that God planned for Jesus before the creation of the world and thus Jesus originated in the mind of God to be reveled when the time is right.)

HIS SPIRIT YOU MEAN HIS LIVE ,HIS SOUL,???MEN SOUL IS A COMBINATION OF FLESH BODY AND A SPIRIT= SOUL
AT BIRTH THAT SPIRIT IS MOST EMPTY AND FILLS AS WE GO AND MATURE TILL DEAD FALLOWS.

NOW WE KNOW THAT WAS NOT THE CASE WITH JESUS FROM THE WOMB HE WAS THERE,(I MEAN KNOWLEDGEABLE) AT 12 YEARS OF AGE HE KNEW WHO WAS IS FATHER WITHOUT A DOUGHT,
ONE MORE THING JESUS HAD TO FULLFIL OVER 1000 PROPHECIES SOME BEFORE IS BIRTH MOST AFTER HE BECAME THE CHRIST ,AND SOME AFTER HIS DEAD.
THIS IS IMPOSIBLE FOR AN MAN TO DO,THIS IS NOT FORCED,AND CHRIST WAS NOT A PUPPET.HE ALSO KNEW WHY HE CAME.

TO SAY THAT ALL OF THAT WAS IN THE MIND OF GOD,HOW DID GOD MADE IT TO BECOME ACCOMPLISHED ??
THIS WOULD MEAN THAT GOD CONTROLED PERSONLY ALL THE MOVES OF CHRIST AND SO CHRIST WOULD BE A PUPPET,AND THATS A LIE.

SO CHRIST SAID HE IS FROM HEAVEN AND THAT IS TRUE,AND SCRIPTURES ALSO SAYS THAT HE CAME DOWN FOR THE PROPOSED GLORY HE RECEIVED,

FOR THIS REASONS CHRIST WAS PREEXISTING,

HERE IS ANOTHER ONE;;;
,The alternative solution is that Jesus travelled back in time and thus existed before his mother. That works if you do not believe he created the world since such a belief introduces a paradox which is what we are attempting to move in order that scripture does not contradict itself
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THIS IS YOU REASONNING LIKE MEN,THIS IS NOT “STAR WARS” FIRST WE KNOW THAT GOD CREATE TIME ,AND ALL THAT IS IN IT,RIGHT,SO HE IS IN CONTROL IT DOES NOT MATTER IF WE UNDERSTAND IT WE ARE SEARCHING SO FAR AND EVERY WERE AND CAN NOT FIND GOD IN SPACE,AND NO ONE WANT TO BELIEVE HIS WORDS,

AT THE RIGHT TIME CHRIS IS BORN TROUGH A VERGIN AND THE LINE OF DAVID,RIGHT THE REST IS NOT IMPORTANT,(ALL AS IT WAS PROPHECIED,RIGHT ??)
YOU CAN ASK WHY DID HE WENT TO EGIPT WHY ALL THOSE THINGS HAPPEN HE HAD NO CONTROL OVER THAT.
AND MARIE HAD THE PRIVILEGE BECAUSE SHE WAS A DEVOTED PERSON TO HER GOD,

THIS IS ANOTHER;;I agree that Jesus is superior to Abraham. That after all was the point Jesus was attempting to make that the Jew misinterpreted to mean he was born before Abraham. Jesus was clarifying what he actually meant.
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JESUS SAID “BEFORE ABRHAM I AM ” WHAT THAT MEAN ,ARE YOU A APOSTLES AND DRIVEN BY GOD SPIRIT TO CHANGE WHAT THE WORD OF GOD SAYS ?? I DO NOT THINK SO.

THIS IS NOT TO CLEAR;It is true that by the Word of God the old creation came to be. It is also true that the Spirit of God is the active force of God and so it implemented God’s Word. In addition it is true that the new creation is done through Jesus by his act of righteousness. These points’ scripture is clear on.

THE OLD CREATION CAME BY ADAM,THE NEW CREATION COMES BY REVERSING THE WAY OF ADAM,BUT IT IS CHRIST SACRIFICE THAT ALLOW US TO DO IT,AND BY KEEPING OUR WAY IN GODS PAD TO RIGHTEOUSNESS AND SO TO HOLINESS.WE WILL HAVE LIVE.

ONE MORE;;
Jesus has an attitude like God and so chose to humble himself and serve others even though he was there superior.

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WERE DID HE LEARN IT THIS IS NOT EASY,SO HOW HAS GOD HUMBLE HIMSELF LIKE JESUS??
THIS IS NOT WHAT SCRIPTURES TELL,PLEASE SHOW SCRIPTURES??

THIS I CAN CLEAR UP FOR YOU;

Jude 1:25 is one I desire some time for as I have not yet consulted God about. It seems to have and internal contradiction in the clause “before all ages” disagrees with “now and forevermore”. In addition it seems to conflict with Jesus own words in Matthew 28 that he has been made Lord of everything in heaven and on earth.

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THERE IS NOTHING IN CONTREDICTION AT ALL,GOD IS AND WILL ALWAYS BE GOD ALL POWERS,BUT CHRIST SAYS THAT ALL POWERS HAVE BEEN GIVEN TO HIM BY HIS FATHER,RIGHT ?? SO WERE IS THE CONTRADICTION,
CAN GOD NOT GIVE WHAT IS HIS OWN ,WHO ARE WE TO JUDGE WHAT HE DOES WITH HIS WHEALTH.RIGHT

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THIS IS SPECIAL;;God glorified Jesus with the title and position of King of everything in heaven and earth before he created Jesus in Mary’s womb because predestined him for that position. He only made him King after Jesus’ death and resurrection and Jesus took his throne after his ascension
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WE HAVE GIVEN YOU CLOSE TO 40 SCRIPTURES TO SHOW YOU THE PREEXISTANCE OF CHRIST ,AND YOU IN TWO AND ALFE SENTENCE YOU WIPED THEM OUT AND PRESENT YOUR PERSONAL FOLY.UNBELIEVABLE.

WOW,WOW;You can say all things are possible for God and that is true but he will not do anything evil. So for Jesus to be born before Mary means he could only be reborn from here. Scripture does not state that is the case but rather states that he was revealed to the world at Bethlehem
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THE SCRIPTURES SAY THAT CHRIST IS THE FIRST CREATION OF GOD, WE HUMAN AND ANIMALS ARE BORN,SAME LAY EGGS TO,SO TODAY WE HAVE TEST TUBE BABY S AND IT ONLY TAKES ONE LITTLE SPERM AND IT IS DONE,AND THAT IS DONE BY MEN ,WOULD GOD BE INFERIOR TO MEN???
WAS ADAM BORN OR CREATED??TO HAVE YOUR VIEWS YOU HAVE TO SCRAPED MOST OF THE BIBLE,

WELL THAT S ALL MY FREIND,

I just made capital letters for you to see were my words are compere to yours.do not think i am angry on you.

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