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Quote (kejonn @ July 22 2007,01:20) For all of those who do no believe that Yeshua existed in some form before his earthly birth, how do you answer the verse from Hebrews 1? Hbr 1:10 And, “YOU, LORD, IN THE BEGINNING LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH, AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS;
Hbr 1:11 THEY WILL PERISH, BUT YOU REMAIN; AND THEY ALL WILL BECOME OLD LIKE A GARMENT,
Hbr 1:12 AND LIKE A MANTLE YOU WILL ROLL THEM UP; LIKE A GARMENT THEY WILL ALSO BE CHANGED. BUT YOU ARE THE SAME, AND YOUR YEARS WILL NOT COME TO AN END.”
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Joh 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.kejonn….which Lord are you refering to there are two Lord
the Lord Jesus Christ and The Lord God Almighty> I believe what you quoted applies to the Lord God Allmighty.Ken,
But does this mean you believe in Yeshua's eternal existence or not? We already know the John 1 scriptures are interpreted either as a “plan” (no real prior existence other than a “plan”) or an actual entity know as Logos or Word. Which do you believe? Would the Hebrews 1 verses really be said about a “plan”.
kenrch….If John was referring to Jesus he would have said Jesus or son of God if that was his point. The word (word) refers to God himself not anyone else. He gives the light(or intellect to man ) and that includes Jesus also, who was a man and the light (word) that was in him was God's words not His, Thats why he said the words he was speaking weren't his but the words of the one who sent Him.
The captialization of the word,(word) turns the simple meaning of word(Intellect utered) to a person, it forces the text to go with the idea that Jesus was God which is used by triniterians to back up their belief of Jesus being God Himself. It wrong to asume the the word (word) means Jesus, it's forcing the text, is what I believe.none of what you quoted proves any prexistence of Jesus.
Gene,
How do you reconcile that view with the Hebrews verse I quoted? And what of these?Jhn 17:5 “Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.
Phl 2:6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,
Phl 2:7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, {and} being made in the likeness of men.Can a “word” be in the form of God? Is God just a bunch of words? Does a “word” have glory? Does a “word” have memory of such glory?
Quote (kejonn @ July 22 2007,03:40) Ken, But does this mean you believe in Yeshua's eternal existence or not? We already know the John 1 scriptures are interpreted either as a “plan” (no real prior existence other than a “plan”) or an actual entity know as Logos or Word. Which do you believe? Would the Hebrews 1 verses really be said about a “plan”.
Hi KJ:God's plan was to make man in his own image. The first man was made a living soul. The last man was made a life-giving spirit. The personality of Jesus did exist with the Father in the beginning. This is the Word of God that Jesus would teach to humanity and would apply to his daily life. He was perfected through obedience to the the Word of God.
God Bless
Quote (kejonn @ July 22 2007,04:59) Gene,
How do you reconcile that view with the Hebrews verse I quoted? And what of these?Jhn 17:5 “Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.
Phl 2:6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,
Phl 2:7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, {and} being made in the likeness of men.Can a “word” be in the form of God? Is God just a bunch of words? Does a “word” have glory? Does a “word” have memory of such glory?
Hi KJ:First, relative to Hebrews 1:10, Hebrews 1:2 states:
Quote Hebrews 1
1:1
God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
1:2
Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;We see in verse 1:2 that God made the worlds with him in mind. It is in this sense that Jesus laid the foundations of the earth as Hebrews 1:10 indicates. Jesus is not the creator as some teach by virtue of Hebrews 1:10, but it is through him (the Word of God) that we who are born-again believers are being made in his image.
Quote Ephesians 2:19
Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
2:20
And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
2:21
In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
2:22
In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.Quote Hebrews 3
3:1
Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;
3:2
Who was faithful to him that appointed him, as also Moses was faithful in all his house.
3:3
For this man was counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as he who hath builded the house hath more honour than the house.
3:4
For every house is builded by some man; but he that built all things is God.
3:5
And Moses verily was faithful in all his house, as a servant, for a testimony of those things which were to be spoken after;
3:6
But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.Relative to John 17:5 which states:
Quote 17:5
And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.This statement is explained by Jesus in the following verses
:
Quote 17:21
That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
17:22
And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
17:23
I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, AND HAST LOVED THEM, AS THOU HAST LOVED ME.
17:24
Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: FOR THOU LOVEDST ME BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD.And you say:
Quote Phl 2:6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,
Phl 2:7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, {and} being made in the likeness of men.
Can a “word” be in the form of God? Is God just a bunch of words? Does a “word” have glory? Does a “word” have memory of such glory?He was in the form of God at the time that he was anointed as God's Christ.
The following verses may help to see this:
Quote 13:3
Jesus knowing that the Father had given all things into his hands, and that he was come from God, and went to God;
13:4
He riseth from supper, and laid aside his garments; and took a towel, and girded himself.
13:5
After that he poureth water into a bason, and began to wash the disciples' feet, and to wipe them with the towel wherewith he was girded.
13:6
Then cometh he to Simon Peter: and Peter saith unto him, Lord, dost thou wash my feet?
13:7
Jesus answered and said unto him, What I do thou knowest not now; but thou shalt know hereafter *.
13:8
Peter saith unto him, Thou shalt never * * * wash my feet. Jesus answered him, If I wash thee not, thou hast no part with me.
13:9
Simon Peter saith unto him, Lord, not my feet only, but also my hands and my head.
13:10
Jesus saith to him, He that is washed needeth not * save to wash his feet, but is clean every whit: and ye are clean, but not all.
13:11
For he knew who should betray him; therefore said he, Ye are not all clean.
13:12
So after he had washed their feet, and had taken his garments, and was set down again, he said unto them, Know ye what I have done to you?
13:13
Ye call me Master and Lord: and ye say well; for so I am.
13:14
If I then, your Lord and Master, have washed your feet; ye also ought to wash one another's feet.
13:15
For I have given you an example, that ye should do as * * I have done to you.
13:16
Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him.Paul's intent by the verses in Philippians was not to teach us that Jesus existed in the form of God before he came to earth, but to teach us about humility, and he illustrated it by the example set before us by our Lord.
God Bless
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 22 2007,03:57) kenrch….If John was referring to Jesus he would have said Jesus or son of God if that was his point. The word (word) refers to God himself not anyone else. He gives the light(or intellect to man ) and that includes Jesus also, who was a man and the light (word) that was in him was God's words not His, Thats why he said the words he was speaking weren't his but the words of the one who sent Him.
The captialization of the word,(word) turns the simple meaning of word(Intellect utered) to a person, it forces the text to go with the idea that Jesus was God which is used by triniterians to back up their belief of Jesus being God Himself. It wrong to asume the the word (word) means Jesus, it's forcing the text, is what I believe.none of what you quoted proves any prexistence of Jesus.
Did I say it did?
Quote (942767 @ July 22 2007,05:23) Quote (kejonn @ July 22 2007,03:40) Ken, But does this mean you believe in Yeshua's eternal existence or not? We already know the John 1 scriptures are interpreted either as a “plan” (no real prior existence other than a “plan”) or an actual entity know as Logos or Word. Which do you believe? Would the Hebrews 1 verses really be said about a “plan”.
Hi KJ:God's plan was to make man in his own image. The first man was made a living soul. The last man was made a life-giving spirit. The personality of Jesus did exist with the Father in the beginning. This is the Word of God that Jesus would teach to humanity and would apply to his daily life. He was perfected through obedience to the the Word of God.
God Bless
In the beginning was the WORD. I believe the Word was part of God. We Have a part of us called our spirit. Our soul would be I believe us as a complete being.Jesus did say He want to go back to where He was BEFORE the foundation of the world. Was that a literal Son? I don't think so, I believe He was part of the Father. The Father's Spirit. We have the Father's Spirit
Love and peace,
Ken
Quote (kejonn @ July 22 2007,04:59) Gene,
How do you reconcile that view with the Hebrews verse I quoted? And what of these?Jhn 17:5 “Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.
Phl 2:6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,
Phl 2:7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, {and} being made in the likeness of men.Can a “word” be in the form of God? Is God just a bunch of words? Does a “word” have glory? Does a “word” have memory of such glory?
Kejonn….first Heb does not say prexisted Jesus was the expressed image of God , but isn't that what God created us for also to be His Image but an image doesnt mean being Him.John 17:5 Jesus' glory was planed in the beginning and Jesus understood that glory that God was going to give Him, and to him he had it in the beginning. dosen't prove he exixted as a being, show me activity and i might change my mind.
Phil2:6,7 this was altered by translators the word existed is wrong it should read who exixtes in the form of God thougth no to rob God to make himself equal with Him.
agian i see not pryer activity.Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 22 2007,03:57) kenrch….If John was referring to Jesus he would have said Jesus or son of God if that was his point. The word (word) refers to God himself not anyone else. He gives the light(or intellect to man ) and that includes Jesus also, who was a man and the light (word) that was in him was God's words not His, Thats why he said the words he was speaking weren't his but the words of the one who sent Him.
The captialization of the word,(word) turns the simple meaning of word(Intellect utered) to a person, it forces the text to go with the idea that Jesus was God which is used by triniterians to back up their belief of Jesus being God Himself. It wrong to asume the the word (word) means Jesus, it's forcing the text, is what I believe.none of what you quoted proves any prexistence of Jesus.
Hi GB,.
So the Word was God with Himself?Quote (kenrch @ July 22 2007,06:43) Quote (942767 @ July 22 2007,05:23) Quote (kejonn @ July 22 2007,03:40) Ken, But does this mean you believe in Yeshua's eternal existence or not? We already know the John 1 scriptures are interpreted either as a “plan” (no real prior existence other than a “plan”) or an actual entity know as Logos or Word. Which do you believe? Would the Hebrews 1 verses really be said about a “plan”.
Hi KJ:God's plan was to make man in his own image. The first man was made a living soul. The last man was made a life-giving spirit. The personality of Jesus did exist with the Father in the beginning. This is the Word of God that Jesus would teach to humanity and would apply to his daily life. He was perfected through obedience to the the Word of God.
God Bless
In the beginning was the WORD. I believe the Word was part of God. We Have a part of us called our spirit. Our soul would be I believe us as a complete being.Jesus did say He want to go back to where He was BEFORE the foundation of the world. Was that a literal Son? I don't think so, I believe He was part of the Father. The Father's Spirit. We have the Father's Spirit
Love and peace,
Ken
Hi K,
So a part of God was with God?Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 22 2007,07:21) Quote (kejonn @ July 22 2007,04:59) Gene,
How do you reconcile that view with the Hebrews verse I quoted? And what of these?Jhn 17:5 “Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.
Phl 2:6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,
Phl 2:7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, {and} being made in the likeness of men.Can a “word” be in the form of God? Is God just a bunch of words? Does a “word” have glory? Does a “word” have memory of such glory?
Kejonn….first Heb does not say prexisted Jesus was the expressed image of God , but isn't that what God created us for also to be His Image but an image doesnt mean being Him.John 17:5 Jesus' glory was planed in the beginning and Jesus understood that glory that God was going to give Him, and to him he had it in the beginning. dosen't prove he exixted as a being, show me activity and i might change my mind.
Phil2:6,7 this was altered by translators the word existed is wrong it should read who exixtes in the form of God thougth no to rob God to make himself equal with Him.
agian i see not pryer activity.
Hi gene,
Why does everyone wish to rob the Monogenes Son of his Glory?
His sacrifice was to give it away and assume our lowly mantle so he could rescue us.
No one seems to want to recognise that sacrifice and all would demean the Son.Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 22 2007,09:03) Quote (kenrch @ July 22 2007,06:43) Quote (942767 @ July 22 2007,05:23) Quote (kejonn @ July 22 2007,03:40) Ken, But does this mean you believe in Yeshua's eternal existence or not? We already know the John 1 scriptures are interpreted either as a “plan” (no real prior existence other than a “plan”) or an actual entity know as Logos or Word. Which do you believe? Would the Hebrews 1 verses really be said about a “plan”.
Hi KJ:God's plan was to make man in his own image. The first man was made a living soul. The last man was made a life-giving spirit. The personality of Jesus did exist with the Father in the beginning. This is the Word of God that Jesus would teach to humanity and would apply to his daily life. He was perfected through obedience to the the Word of God.
God Bless
In the beginning was the WORD. I believe the Word was part of God. We Have a part of us called our spirit. Our soul would be I believe us as a complete being.Jesus did say He want to go back to where He was BEFORE the foundation of the world. Was that a literal Son? I don't think so, I believe He was part of the Father. The Father's Spirit. We have the Father's Spirit
Love and peace,
Ken
Hi K,
So a part of God was with God?
Sure is your spirit with you? NO!?Hi K,
Would you want me to align your logical derivation with Scripture?
The Word was with God and had his own glory.Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 22 2007,09:08) Hi K,
Would you want me to align your logical derivation with Scripture?
The Word was with God and had his own glory.
You didn't answer my question. Is your spirit with you?Gen 1:2 The earth was without form and void, and darkness was over the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.
Gen 1:3 And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light.The Spirit of God was hovering over the water AND God said.
Does scripture say God was hovering over the water?
So the Spirit of God is God and is with God.
Is your spirit with you?
Quote (kenrch @ July 22 2007,09:10) Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 22 2007,09:08) Hi K,
Would you want me to align your logical derivation with Scripture?
The Word was with God and had his own glory.
You didn't answer my question. Is your spirit with you?
Hi K,
No,
I am glad my spirit is still in me.
If it was with me I would be dead.
Jas 2.26Quote (kenrch @ July 22 2007,09:19) Gen 1:2 The earth was without form and void, and darkness was over the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.
Gen 1:3 And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light.The Spirit of God was hovering over the water AND God said.
Does scripture say God was hovering over the water?
So the Spirit of God is God and is with God.
Is your spirit with you?
Hi K,
God can pour of His Spirit.
We cannot.
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