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Quote (gollamudi @ Aug. 11 2010,17:19) I appreciate your response. But I am sorry to say it is also a speculation to say that the 'word' was God's first work in this creation. Infact the 'word of God' can not be created since it is God's own word and it is His own expression. Since God can not be created so His word can not be created IMO. God's word is not another person as per Hebrew scriptures. It was never meant an ontological being apart from God in the Hebrew scriptures so were 'wisdom' and 'spirit'. Please read Isa 55:
Sure, but the Word was WITH God in the beginning, John 1:1. The Word that we know as Jesus Christ of Nazareth.Also, John wrote about the Word of Life that was in the beginning:
1 John 1
1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked at and our hands have touched—this we proclaim concerning the Word of life. 2 The life appeared; we have seen it and testify to it, and we proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and has appeared to us. 3 We proclaim to you what we have seen and heard, so that you also may have fellowship with us. And our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ. 4 We write this to make our joy complete.So I may not be able to say to you that the Word was the first act or work of the Father, but I can say to you that the Word of Life that the apostles saw, was touched by the hands of the apostles and was in the beginning. Jesus even confirms this by declaring that he was the life. “I am the way, truth and the life”.
Lastly, John tells us that he writes this that our joy may be complete. So I declare to you that I believe John and I am not going to jeopardize or disqualify from the perfect joy that John speaks of. No cleverly devised tale will remove me from that.
Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 11 2010,17:48) You are inadvertently cutting off the context of Philippians 2:6-11. The actual topic of that argument is not Jesus but rather having and attitude the same as Jesus and that topic is mentioned in Philippians 2:5. Verses 1:4 are a lead in to that topic. Paul is still teaching on the same topic in verses 6-11, where it climaxes, and the teaching concludes in verse 18 of the same chapter.
But kerwin, you can't remove the first verse.Philippians 2:6-11
6 Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,Yes of course there is a context, there is a context to everything. But the truth that he existed in the form of God is not negated.
e.g., let's say I am talking about the Iraq war and I mention that President Bush was the president. The context of the war doesn't negate the fact that he was the president at the start of that war.
This is simple stuff and I am surprised that I even need to explain this. Although on the other hand I am not surprised because I have to explain very simple concepts to Trinitarians too.
I guess when people are brainwashed, then even simple logic can escape them. How else do I conclude having to explain simple things to adults?
In every day language we describe contexts and insert facts. The facts are not negated by the context.
Quote (gollamudi @ Aug. 11 2010,17:19) Hi brother T8,
I appreciate your response. But I am sorry to say it is also a speculation to say that the 'word' was God's first work in this creation. Infact the 'word of God' can not be created since it is God's own word and it is His own expression. Since God can not be created so His word can not be created IMO. God's word is not another person as per Hebrew scriptures. It was never meant an ontological being apart from God in the Hebrew scriptures so were 'wisdom' and 'spirit'. Please read Isa 55:
Read 1John 1:1.Jesus is that Word of Life.
Hi brother T8,
It may be as per Christian mystification. But I feel it should be taken as metaphorically like 'Wisdom' and 'Spirit' which were also given some relationship with Jesus the man. I don't think we can take it literally as many think here. It would be a polytheism to assume 'word' as some being apart from God which can happen only in Hellenistic philosophy like that of Plato or Philo but not in pure monotheism of Hebrew Bible.
Thanks to you
AdamT8,
You still seem to be missing my point or you would understand that I am not removing verse 6 but rather understanding in line with the idea that Paul is teaching about having an attitude like Jesus. Verse 6 is part of the description of Jesus’ attitude that we are called to have one like.
Starting with the verse five the passage goes:
Philippians 2:5(NIV) reads:
Quote Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:
It then describes Jesus’ attitude with these words:
Philippians 2:6 NIV) reads:
Quote Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,Another way of stating that verse is “Jesus: whose character is God’s, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,”.
If you look up the definition of “nature” in the Merriam-Webster dictionary you will see that one definition is “the inherent character or basic constitution of a person or thing” and Paul is clearly speaking about an attribute of character in verse 5.
Then it goes on:
Philippians 2:7-8 NIV) reads:
Quote but made himself nothing,
taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
and became obedient to death—
even death on a cross!As you can see my chosen definition for “nature” fits the context of the passage while your definition that is “a kind or class usually distinguished by fundamental or essential characteristics” does not.
You are basically stating “Jesus: who is a Deity, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,”
How does that fit the context of even that verse much less the rest of that passage?
After all what does being a Deity have to do with not considering equality with God something to be grasped?
Note: Both definitions are from the “nature” entry in the Merriam-Webster online dictionary.
Edited to improve readability.
How does brother T8 not bother about polytheism if Jesus was also a deity as per Phil 2:6. It is all confusion created by Paul and other N.T writers so that we are beating the bush in finding truth. They created such an ambiguity so that you will never find truth in these so called scriptures.
Hope you will also realise what I found in such scriptures.
AdamQuote (t8 @ Aug. 11 2010,18:49) Quote (gollamudi @ Aug. 11 2010,17:19) I appreciate your response. But I am sorry to say it is also a speculation to say that the 'word' was God's first work in this creation. Infact the 'word of God' can not be created since it is God's own word and it is His own expression. Since God can not be created so His word can not be created IMO. God's word is not another person as per Hebrew scriptures. It was never meant an ontological being apart from God in the Hebrew scriptures so were 'wisdom' and 'spirit'. Please read Isa 55:
Sure, but the Word was WITH God in the beginning, John 1:1. The Word that we know as Jesus Christ of Nazareth.Also, John wrote about the Word of Life that was in the beginning:
1 John 1
1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked at and our hands have touched—this we proclaim concerning the Word of life. 2 The life appeared; we have seen it and testify to it, and we proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and has appeared to us. 3 We proclaim to you what we have seen and heard, so that you also may have fellowship with us. And our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ. 4 We write this to make our joy complete.So I may not be able to say to you that the Word was the first act or work of the Father, but I can say to you that the Word of Life that the apostles saw, was touched by the hands of the apostles and was in the beginning. Jesus even confirms this by declaring that he was the life. “I am the way, truth and the life”.
Lastly, John tells us that he writes this that our joy may be complete. So I declare to you that I believe John and I am not going to jeopardize or disqualify from the perfect joy that John speaks of. No cleverly devised tale will remove me from that.
T8……..When are you going to realize the Word of GOD (WAS, WAS, WAS, WAS, WAS, WAS, WAS, GOD!. Not Jesus, God created everything by Speaking them into existence. GOD and His WORDS are ONE and the Same thing as You and Your Words are. You can not separate a Man from his words nor GOD from His words. Why can't you understand that brother?peace and love to you and yours……………….gene
Quote (t8 @ Aug. 11 2010,00:31) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 11 2010,10:03) t8 So then to you Jesus is not the “author (aitios) of eternal salvation” but the Father is? Heb 5:8, 9
Yes I believe Hebrews 5:8-9
It also says this in the context of him being a son.
But your context is that he is God.So can I put it to you that I believe Hebrews 5:8-9 more than you.
Hebrews 5:8-9 (New International Version)
8 Although he was a son, he learned obedience from what he suffered 9 and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey himHebrews 5:8-9 (New American Standard Bible)
8 Although He was a Son, He learned obedience from the things which He suffered.
9 And having been made perfect, He became to all those who obey Him the source of eternal salvation,So I believe he was a son. He learned obedience from his suffering. Was made perfect. And became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey him.
I believe all this and your belief that he is God, just wipes that away in one swoop.
How can God be made perfect. How can he learn obedience – (obedience to whom?). How can God be his own son?
So IMO, I believe this verse and your doctrine actually nullifies it.
t8Was that a yes “Jesus is the AUTHOR of eternal salvation”?
If he is not God then the scriptures contradict themselves because YHWH said he alone is “The Savour”.
Jesus is not the Savour by proxy t8, he is “The Savour”.
Is the term Son of God “antithetical” to the term God?
WJ
Quote (gollamudi @ Aug. 11 2010,19:57) Hi brother T8,
It may be as per Christian mystification. But I feel it should be taken as metaphorically like 'Wisdom' and 'Spirit' which were also given some relationship with Jesus the man. I don't think we can take it literally as many think here. It would be a polytheism to assume 'word' as some being apart from God which can happen only in Hellenistic philosophy like that of Plato or Philo but not in pure monotheism of Hebrew Bible.
Thanks to you
Adam
Absolutely not. Jesus is also literally wisdom from God. Yes truth, life, wisdom, and the word are all attributes of God. They are also personified in Jesus Christ. He IS the life. He IS the truth. He IS wisdom. He IS the Word of Life.When God created us, he based us on his attributes. That is why we have a name given to us that no one else knows. Someone might be called Charity, Grace, Mighty One, Peter, and the name personifies the person. What was Paul's previous name, what was Peter's. Why the name change?
Charity, grace, mighty, rock, are all attributes and descriptions, but are also characteristics that define the character or person. How much more does Christ personify attributes of God? I tell you much more. He expresses the fullness of God.
You forget this. Yes there are attributes and there are people who personify these attributes and are even called by these attributes in name.
Goll, a half truth is not the full truth. Your metaphorical explanation is not a full explanation. You also need to look beyond the metaphorical and attributes and realise that God places these attributes in people and they are named so.
Jesus is literally wisdom from God. He is literally the Word of Life that was WITH the Father in the beginning. He is literally the truth. You cannot deny that Jesus is literally these. It is God's good pleasure to distribute his attributes among us.
WJ………If Jesus was a GOD how did He learn (OBEDIENCE) by the things He suffered, Who was He to obey if He were a GOD Himself was it himself he had to learn to obey? Again that is what we are left with by using the Trinitarian and Preexistent LOGIC, We just go around in inconclusive circles winding up nowhere and making no sense so you have to try to create some kind of false reasonings to support your dogmas WJ.
peace and love……………………………gene
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 12 2010,01:56) t8 Was that a yes “Jesus is the AUTHOR of eternal salvation”?
If he is not God then the scriptures contradict themselves because YHWH said he alone is “The Savour”.
Jesus is not the Savour by proxy t8, he is “The Savour”.
Is the term Son of God “antithetical” to the term God?
WJ
WJ, Jesus is the source. Paul says that the head of the man is Christ and the head of Christ is God. Therefore Christ is our source or head. His head is God, and ultimately it is God who is the head of all, even the source of all.e.g., The Amazon River has a source, (many actually), but these sources also have their own source.
Just because Jesus is the source of our salvation doesn't exclude God the Father from providing the plan and will for our salvation. Jesus said, “not my will but your will”. What more proof do you need. It was the Father's will that his son would die for us.
You seem to be excluding God the Father from our salvation in order to preserve your doctrine. See how your doctrine makes you stray, even without realising it?
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 12 2010,01:43) T8……..When are you going to realize the Word of GOD (WAS, WAS, WAS, WAS, WAS, WAS, WAS, GOD!. Not Jesus, God created everything by Speaking them into existence. GOD and His WORDS are ONE and the Same thing as You and Your Words are. You can not separate a Man from his words nor GOD from His words. Why can't you understand that brother?
Gene, it doesn't say that the Word was God. That is the same as saying that the Word was the God. And this means that the Word is God to the exclusion of the Father being God. This is where both yourself and Trinitarians misrepresent John 1:1.You need a lesson in definite articles and what they mean and do in the Greek language. Think of a capital letter as in your name.
If I said, Eve was Adam, it would mean that Eve was literally Adam. If I said, Eve was adam, then I would be correct, because I would be saying that Eve's nature was man(kind).
Now the Word was WITH God and this you cannot deny. The Word that was WITH God is preceded by a definite article and God is not. You ignore this and it leads you into error.
John 1:1 and 1John 1:1 go together perfectly.
Jesus is the Word of Life and you are telling me that he is NOT the Word of Life.
That sums it up doesn't it?
Hi t8:
Hebrews 1 tells us that in these last days, “God has spoken to humanity through His Son” (Hebrews 1) and in John 14 Jesus tells us that the Father dwelling within him is doing the works through him. John 6 Jesus tells us that the words that he is speaking (God speaking through him) are “spirit and they are life”.
And so, yes Jesus is the “the Word of life” because he obeyed God without sin even unto death on the cross.
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (t8 @ Aug. 12 2010,10:36) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 12 2010,01:43) T8……..When are you going to realize the Word of GOD (WAS, WAS, WAS, WAS, WAS, WAS, WAS, GOD!. Not Jesus, God created everything by Speaking them into existence. GOD and His WORDS are ONE and the Same thing as You and Your Words are. You can not separate a Man from his words nor GOD from His words. Why can't you understand that brother?
Gene, it doesn't say that the Word was God. That is the same as saying that the Word was the God. And this means that the Word is God to the exclusion of the Father being God. This is where both yourself and Trinitarians misrepresent John 1:1.You need a lesson in definite articles and what they mean and do in the Greek language. Think of a capital letter as in your name.
If I said, Eve was Adam, it would mean that Eve was literally Adam. If I said, Eve was adam, then I would be correct, because I would be saying that Eve's nature was man(kind).
Now the Word was WITH God and this you cannot deny. The Word that was WITH God is preceded by a definite article and God is not. You ignore this and it leads you into error.
John 1:1 and 1John 1:1 go together perfectly.
Jesus is the Word of Life and you are telling me that he is NOT the Word of Life.
That sums it up doesn't it?
t8 Here I have to agree with WJ in John 1:1 it says in the beginning was the Word and the Word was God and was with God. Also in Hebrew 1:8 He is called God. And in Rev. 19:13 He is called The Word of God, King of Kings and Lord of Lords in verse 16. I understand that God is a title and both have other names. Our Heavenly Fathers name is Jehovah or Yahweh… Or Elohim. Jesus was the Word and will be again when He comes again….Rev, 19:13-16 explains it very nicely. Many were called God, just like Satan is called the God of this world….that does not make Him equal with the Almighty God. While He is the Mighty God. Afterall He did come forth from the Almighty God. Proverbs 8
Peace IreneThe language doesn't support that Jesus is God in John 1:1, but that he was divine and was WITH God. The definite article is not there Irene.
The reason Satan is called the God (with an article) is because it describes the context of him being God and that is he is God of this world. So he is THE God of this world.
So Jesus is not God of all. The God in John 1:1 is God of all, the true God. It doesn't say that the Word was either THE God or A God. You would be adding that in if you said either.
Quote (942767 @ Aug. 12 2010,10:47) Hi t8: Hebrews 1 tells us that in these last days, “God has spoken to humanity through His Son” (Hebrews 1) and in John 14 Jesus tells us that the Father dwelling within him is doing the works through him. John 6 Jesus tells us that the words that he is speaking (God speaking through him) are “spirit and they are life”.
And so, yes Jesus is the “the Word of life” because he obeyed God without sin even unto death on the cross.
Love in Christ,
Marty
He is either THE Word of Life, has the word of life, or both.e.g., I may have truth, and it is possible that to have truth that you are the truth, but in this case, I am not that truth.
If Jesus had the word of life, it is possible that he is THE Word of Life, and in this case, he is the Word of Life that was With God.
To say otherwise is to deny that he was the Word of Life.
Quote (t8 @ Aug. 11 2010,18:29) You seem to be excluding God the Father from our salvation in order to preserve your doctrine. See how your doctrine makes you stray, even without realising it?
So you admit then that when YHWH says that “HE ALONE is our Savour”, then that includes Jesus?
WJ
Quote (t8 @ Aug. 11 2010,19:11) The language doesn't support that Jesus is God in John 1:1, but that he was divine and was WITH God. The definite article is not there Irene.
Your statement is Circular, for the definite article is not included in many places that refer to the “One True God (Theos)”.Why would John create such confusion when he could have used another word to say “Divine” or “Son”?
WJ
Quote (t8 @ Aug. 12 2010,11:16) Quote (942767 @ Aug. 12 2010,10:47) Hi t8: Hebrews 1 tells us that in these last days, “God has spoken to humanity through His Son” (Hebrews 1) and in John 14 Jesus tells us that the Father dwelling within him is doing the works through him. John 6 Jesus tells us that the words that he is speaking (God speaking through him) are “spirit and they are life”.
And so, yes Jesus is the “the Word of life” because he obeyed God without sin even unto death on the cross.
Love in Christ,
Marty
He is either THE Word of Life, has the word of life, or both.e.g., I may have truth, and it is possible that to have truth that you are the truth, but in this case, I am not that truth.
If Jesus had the word of life, it is possible that he is THE Word of Life, and in this case, he is the Word of Life that was With God.
To say otherwise is to deny that he was the Word of Life.
Hi t8:You sound like someone trying to explain the trinity. It is a mystery, they say, but no, the scriptures have plainly told us:
Quote Hebrews 5:5So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee. 6As he saith also in another place, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
7Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;
8Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
9And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
He is the author of eternal life because he obeyed the Word of God even unto death on the cross, and now he watches over that Word at the right hand of the Father to perform it.
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 12 2010,18:29) Quote (t8 @ Aug. 11 2010,18:29) You seem to be excluding God the Father from our salvation in order to preserve your doctrine. See how your doctrine makes you stray, even without realising it?
So you admit then that when YHWH says that “HE ALONE is our Savour”, then that includes Jesus?WJ
hi WJthere is only one savior and that is God the father of all (live giver) even Christ is depend on him,
God has many helping hands to fulfill his will ,but he still the only live giver.Pierre
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