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Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 05 2010,20:31) Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 06 2010,07:18) I am glad that you admit that monogenes and gennao can mean literally born or procreated. That's a step 
Hi Kathi,They can whoop and holler about “monogenes” and “gennao” all they want.
But they can't do away with “yalad”. And in Psalm 2:7, Jehovah says He “yalad” a Son. There is no question that yalad means a literal begetting in Psalm 2:7.
peace and love,
mike
MikeHaHa! You think you have an air tight case, but it is obvious that you don't.
Do the words “Yalad”, “monogenes” or “gennaō” have different meanings than being literally born or procreated or not?
If they do then it is merely conjecture and your own personal interpretation and opinion which is not backed by the facts.
WJ
Mikeboll said:
Quote Hello there Mr. Worshipping (the man) Jesus (when God specifically said in Deut 4:15-19 not to)
Hello there Mr. Mikeboll.Deuteronomy 6 teaches the plural God concept as you will see in my Rebuttal# 9. In verse 16 Moses commanded the people not to tempt YHWH as they tempted Him in Massah. According to Paul it was Christ whom the people tempted.
…nor let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed by serpents; 10 nor complain, as some of them also complained, and were destroyed by the destroyer. 1 Cor. 10:9
The Critical Text which is based in the oldest manuscripts say “Christos.” The NU Text from which the NWT is derived also says “Christos.” Why do you think that the NWT translators deleted “Christos” and put “Jehovah” in its place Mike?
I'll tell you why. Because Jehovah in Deuteronomy 6:16 is Christ and the NWT translators don't like it.
btw, you are a moderator. I could not login in on my regular name because it would not accept my password for some reason. So I created KJ Jr. for the time being. Please help me solve the problem so I can go back to KJ.
the Roo
Kangaroo Jack Jr.
You can log in as Kangaroo Jack. There might have been a problem because the forum had a domain name change.
If you have lost your password, then request a new one. It will be sent to your registered email address with the Kangaroo Jack account.Quote (Kangaroo Jack Jr. @ Aug. 06 2010,18:21) The Critical Text which is based in the oldest manuscripts say “Christos.” The NU Text from which the NWT is derived also says “Christos.” Why do you think that the NWT translators deleted “Christos” and put “Jehovah” in its place Mike?
JackGood question, but we know the answer to that, don't we?
WJ
Who cares about the NWT. As if that was needed to prove that God is one or that Jesus was before Abraham and David. You can prove these things using most translations.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 07 2010,16:38) Quote (Kangaroo Jack Jr. @ Aug. 06 2010,18:21) The Critical Text which is based in the oldest manuscripts say “Christos.” The NU Text from which the NWT is derived also says “Christos.” Why do you think that the NWT translators deleted “Christos” and put “Jehovah” in its place Mike?
JackGood question, but we know the answer to that, don't we?
WJ
According to the foreword, the NWT used the Wescott and Hort ms, while considering others.mike
Quote (Kangaroo Jack Jr. @ Aug. 07 2010,10:21) Mikeboll said: Quote Hello there Mr. Worshipping (the man) Jesus (when God specifically said in Deut 4:15-19 not to)
Hello there Mr. Mikeboll.Deuteronomy 6 teaches the plural God concept as you will see in my Rebuttal# 9. In verse 16 Moses commanded the people not to tempt YHWH as they tempted Him in Massah. According to Paul it was Christ whom the people tempted.
…nor let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed by serpents; 10 nor complain, as some of them also complained, and were destroyed by the destroyer. 1 Cor. 10:9
The Critical Text which is based in the oldest manuscripts say “Christos.” The NU Text from which the NWT is derived also says “Christos.” Why do you think that the NWT translators deleted “Christos” and put “Jehovah” in its place Mike?
I'll tell you why. Because Jehovah in Deuteronomy 6:16 is Christ and the NWT translators don't like it.
btw, you are a moderator. I could not login in on my regular name because it would not accept my password for some reason. So I created KJ Jr. for the time being. Please help me solve the problem so I can go back to KJ.
the Roo
Hello there Mr. Animal with a pouch,Let's review some things. Numbers 21 says:
21:5 And the people spoke against God and against Moses, “Why have you brought us up out of Egypt to die in the wilderness, for there is no bread or water, and we 12 detest this worthless 13 food.”
21:6 So the Lord sent poisonous 14 snakes 15 among the people, and they bit the people; many people of Israel died
What does “christ” mean? Does it not refer to an “anointed one of God”? Moses was “christ”, so was David and others before Jesus. Could 1 Cor 10:9 be saying for us not to test the one that God has anointed? And that's assuming that the word is “Christos”, not “kurios”. That is still up for debate.
When I first read the Bible, I didn't really think of Jesus having much to do with the OT, because he wasn't really mentioned……or so I thought. I have learned from you and Kathi to take a harder look at Jesus' role in the OT. And I am slowly doing just that. And after you guys pointed out some things, it dawned on me that it would be kind of strange for God's Son to just be hanging out doing nothing for the first 4000 years of the history of mankind. So obviously, I still have much to learn, but consider just one thing Jack:
If the rock mass is Christ, and the messenger that went before the Israelites is Christ, and it is Christ they shouldn't have tempted……..all of these things prove that Christ is someone OTHER THAN GOD HIMSELF.
An “anointed one OF GOD” cannot therefore be God Himself. A “messenger OF GOD” cannot be God Himself.
Food for thought, my friend.
peace and love,
mikeQuote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 07 2010,09:09) Tell me Mike, when is the last time that you “WORSHIPPED” (proskyneō) Jesus? When was the last time that you fell on your knees as a token of “Profound Reverence” to Jesus by shouting with a loud voice, WORTHY ARE YOU LORD JESUS TO RECEIVE POWER, AND RICHES, AND WISDOM, AND STRENGTH, AND HONOUR, AND GLORY, AND BLESSING?
Hi WJ,Hmmmm…….I wonder from whom Jesus “received” the power, riches, wisdom and strength.
Do you think it could have been from the one he said was “our God and his God”…….the same one he still calls “my God”?And you can't be serious about the “worship” word. People fell down on their knees to “worship” King David too. Do you think they were “worshipping” David as his God? Probably not, so why would you think they “worshipped” Jesus as his God? (Btw, the LXX uses the same word “proskuneo” in 2 Samuel 1:2 to describe what the man did to David.)
If you say the “worship” applied to Jesus is “worship” worthy of God alone, then you must also be saying that the man in 2 Samuel offered this same “worship” to King David, therefore David is also God.
One last thought: I found it interesting that the first “worship” of Jesus verse you pasted was from Matt 20, which says in the NET version:
20:20 Then the mother of the sons of Zebedee came to him with her sons, and kneeling down she asked him for a favor. 26 20:21 He said to her, “What do you want?” She replied, 27 “Permit 28 these two sons of mine to sit, one at your 29 right hand and one at your left, in your kingdom.” 20:22 Jesus 30 answered, “You don’t know what you are asking! 31 Are you able to drink the cup I am about to drink?” 32 They said to him, “We are able.” 33 20:23 He told them, “You will drink my cup, 34 but to sit at my right and at my left is not mine to give. Rather, it is for those for whom it has been prepared by my Father.”
You see? You once again use something to support the trinity that actually ends up refuting it.
Jesus doesn't have PERMISSION to offer what John's mom asks for because his God has already decided who will sit there.Better to stick with what scripture says, Keith. Jesus tells Satan in Matt 4:10,
10Jesus said to him, “Away from me, Satan! For it is written: 'Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.'”
So here we have Jesus quoting Moses who was quoting God Himself. Hmmmm……..that's three very good reasons to believe you should worship and serve as God ONLY THE LORD GOD HIMSELF. You want to worship Jesus as God, but you ignore your God #2's very words.
peace and love,
mikeHi WJ,
You said:
Quote Yep. But the writers of the scriptures and the Forefathers call him their God too. How about you Mike?
While there is no writer of scripture who calls Jesus their God, there are a few scriptures where Jesus himself plainly states that the Father, who is our God, is also his God.I asked:
Quote Have people ever seen his form?
You answered:Quote Yep, and the Angels are worshipping him now.
First, angels are not mankind, which is what I meant.Second, the word worship means to show reverrence and doesn't necessarily mean the same worship that is due to “the Lord God only”, as Jesus and Moses put it.
Third, you didn't address the issue that no man has ever seen God take a form of anything in heaven or earth. By contrast, many people saw the form of Jesus. Even as Stephen was being stoned to death, he was able to see the “form” of Jesus clearly, but still not able to see any “form” of God……..only His glory.
We said:
Quote Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 04 2010,23:33)
Was God's Messiah “apportioned to all the nations under heaven” by his God?Misuse of scripture, for the scripture is about “Idols” which are called things.
We are NOT to worship anything God has apportioned to all the nations, period. Was Jesus apportioned to all the nations?You said:
Quote Then YHWH is a Hypocrite for commanding the Angels to worship him, right?
You do understand the difference between doing obeisance, like the word “proskuneo” means, and actually worshipping the God of the heavens and earth, don't you? I know you understand, but you must “play dumb” to make your point. It doesn't work Keith, for all of us here know how sharp your brain is.We said:
Quote Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 04 2010,23:33)
WJ, why DOES Ignatius say “born and unborn”? I don't get it.Of course you don’t get it because you don’t want to get it.
So explain what you think he meant. But do in light of the other things he plainly said. We said:
Quote Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 04 2010,23:33)
But more importantly, why do you think he said Jesus was “both OF Mary and OF God”?Because he is both “God” and “Man”, remember “The Word/God came in the flesh”.
What?!? That doesn't even make sense Keith. He is “OF Mary” because he was BORN OF MARY. So he is “OF God” because he was BORN OF GOD.You said:
Quote But that is not what Ignatius said is it?
Sure it is. It's right there in YOUR quote of him. We said:
Quote Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 04 2010,23:33)
And you can give any trinitarian sponsored definition of begotten that you want to. Go ahead and try to fit your definition in this sentence in all the various forms of “beget”. My definition of “procreated” works just fine…….does yours? Try the “single of it's kind” one. Try it in all three forms of “beget”.I already have. Paul’s use of the word fits just fine.
Really? Show it to me then. Print Ignatius' quote out word for word using YOUR definition of begotten in all 4 mentions of it in the quote I posted. Let's see how understandable it is with YOUR definitions.Your “today” theory doesn't hold water when you know that the Hebrew word also loosely meant “this time period”. So don't put too much into that word just because you think it helps your doctrine.
You said:
Quote The Father is “unbegotten” because the Son never said “TODAY I HAVE BEGOTTEN YOU”.
Come on man! I expect better than that out of someone of your intelligence.We said:
Quote Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 04 2010,23:33)
Too many holes, brother. You'd do well to run from Ignatius like you do from Eusebius!No doubt you create many rabbit holes.
WJ
Keith, if you want to discuss Ignatius and Eusebius side by side, I started a thread about it a while back. Remember? It was called “trinitarian scholars are mistaken” or something like that. It was like pulling teeth to get you, Jack and Paul to even visit the thread. But then you guys want to go thread to thread making claims about 3 words Ignatius said while ignoring the substance of what both he and Eusebius believed.Interesting…….
peace and love,
mikeIt must be a new year in the forum.
The trinitarians have been hibernating in the cold winter of their discontent with Truth.
The Springness of the Forum has allows shoots of unscriptural doctrine to rise again.
The Rhyzomes, were of course, only dormant, like the ring of Power in Lord of the Rings, awaiting a time to re-emerge and terrify middle-earth Forum posters, leading many off into “slaves-to-the-lie” captivity .Mike……….You are right on this point , Christ simply means Anointed one. And Where it say it was Christos that followed the Childern of Israel in the Wilderness that simply means the Anointing that was on Moses and the 70 Elders and Joshua and Caleb was from GOD and this anointing was also in the angles that were also with them. While the trinitarian minds can not understand this also the preexistences mind can not either because they think it was Jesus who was following them in his preexistence life. Both in this case are wrong IMO.
peace and love……………………gene
Some people here think that the options are that God made all things or God and Jesus made all things.
Actually the texts says that all things were made THROUGH him (Jesus).
Another scripture says that there is one God the Father FROM who all things came and one Lord, the Lord Jesus Christ THROUGH who all things came.Think of Eve. God created her, but THROUGH Adam. Is that correct? And were you created? And through whom? Your mother?
And now understand that the man is the head of the woman and Christ the head of man, and God the head of Christ.
Hi t8,
I see creation as having two steps, one person gives the wisdom and power, the other receives the wisdom and power to complete the task. I can design a kitchen and the cabinet maker makes the kitchen. The result, I put in a new kitchen through my cabinet maker/installer. The kitchen originated from me and completed by him. This is similar to salvation, it took one to send and accept the sacrifice, the other to be willing to be sent, to completely obey, and then to be the perfect sacrifice.Well that could well be the case.
If I said to you that I made a website, I might still have an external programmer doing the code, or an artist who creates a template from my ideas.
I also think that God creates things through other things. e.g, we can see similar DNA in all species. We can even see that we have much common code with chimpanzees which gives rise the mistaken idea of evolution.
But it appears that God reuses his own code. In fact that is how I build web sites. I hardly ever start from scratch because I have written a lot of code and what would be the point.
I can take the code from this web site for example and create a web site about New Zealand. It could look completely different but the underlying code could have a similar base and I could save a lot of work doing it that way.
Also, there is a big gap between the Eternal God and a human being and other created creatures and things. It stands to reason that God had a template of some kind that he was able to create all things through. That is who Christ is. He is the firstborn of all creation. The image of the invisible God. All things were made through him and for him.
Imagine a computer and imagine a web page. A web page is not possible without the computer of similar device. There are intermediate and necessary steps between a computer and a web page. The computer needs an operating system, (OS), and the OS needs an application called a web browser and there needs to be a network connection before the web page is even possible. The computer may contain everything, hardware, OS, software, etc, but there are levels or layers that make it possible. In IT terms this is called “the stack”.
When God created all things. He didn't just say, Let their be a cup of coffee. No, quite a few layers down, that was possible.
God is the ever existing one. The Word who is Jesus Christ came from him. God through him, made all things. The first man was Adam, and from or through him came Eve. From or through Eve came Cain, Abel, and others, and so on.
So did God create you? Yes of course. But he didn't whip you up from nothing. No you were created through many generations and your spirit came from him directly.
So to the doubters out there. If you look at creation, it witnesses of the fact that God makes things through other things all the time. Now ask yourself this. When God was alone. Before anything created, he must have done a work that would be considered the first work.
What is that first work?
Quote (gollamudi @ Aug. 10 2010,14:45) Jesus is the first work of God as per JW/Arianism/Preexistenceism…
It makes you wonder how the same people can believe that Adam is the fist man when Jesus supposedly existed before him.Quote (t8 @ Aug. 10 2010,19:11) Well that could well be the case. If I said to you that I made a website, I might still have an external programmer doing the code, or an artist who creates a template from my ideas.
I also think that God creates things through other things. e.g, we can see similar DNA in all species. We can even see that we have much common code with chimpanzees which gives rise the mistaken idea of evolution.
But it appears that God reuses his own code. In fact that is how I build web sites. I hardly ever start from scratch because I have written a lot of code and what would be the point.
I can take the code from this web site for example and create a web site about New Zealand. It could look completely different but the underlying code could have a similar base and I could save a lot of work doing it that way.
Also, there is a big gap between the Eternal God and a human being and other created creatures and things. It stands to reason that God had a template of some kind that he was able to create all things through. That is who Christ is. He is the firstborn of all creation. The image of the invisible God. All things were made through him and for him.
Imagine a computer and imagine a web page. A web page is not possible without the computer of similar device. There are intermediate and necessary steps between a computer and a web page. The computer needs an operating system, (OS), and the OS needs an application called a web browser and there needs to be a network connection before the web page is even possible. The computer may contain everything, hardware, OS, software, etc, but there are levels or layers that make it possible. In IT terms this is called “the stack”.
When God created all things. He didn't just say, Let their be a cup of coffee. No, quite a few layers down, that was possible.
God is the ever existing one. The Word who is Jesus Christ came from him. God through him, made all things. The first man was Adam, and from or through him came Eve. From or through Eve came Cain, Abel, and others, and so on.
So did God create you? Yes of course. But he didn't whip you up from nothing. No you were created through many generations and your spirit came from him directly.
So to the doubters out there. If you look at creation, it witnesses of the fact that God makes things through other things all the time. Now ask yourself this. When God was alone. Before anything created, he must have done a work that would be considered the first work.
What is that first work?
The Hebrew root ברא (BaRA) is a child root formed out of the parent by adding the letter ברא. As a verb this word is used 46 times in the Hebrew Bible. Below are just a couple of these occurrences in the KJV translation (the underlined word is the translation of the word ברא).
In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. (Genesis 1:1)
Wherefore kick ye at my sacrifice and at mine offering, which I have commanded in my habitation; and honourest thy sons above me, to make yourselves fat with the chiefest of all the offerings of Israel my people? (1Sa 2:29)
Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me. (Ps 51:10 or 12 in the Hebrew Bible)
Remember now thy Creator in the days of thy youth, while the evil days come not, nor the years draw nigh, when thou shalt say, I have no pleasure in them; (Ecc 12:1)
The first thing to remember when researching the original meaning of a word is that you need to find the “concrete” meaning of the word. Since “create” is an abstract it would be a foreign concept to the ancient Hebrews. We find the concrete meaning in 1 Samuel 2:29 which are “fat”. The actual word in this passage is lehavriyackem (LHBRYAKM). The L means “to”, the H makes the verb causative (make), BRA is the root, Y (placed between the R and A is also part of the causative form and the KM is “you” (plural) or yourselves”. Literally this word means “to make yourselves fat”.
Now let's see how this meaning applies to the other verses listed. In Genesis 1:1 it does not say that God “created” the heavens and the earth, instead he “fattened” them or “filled” them. Notice that the remaining chapter is about this “filling” of the heavens with sun, moon, birds and and the “filling” of the earth with animals, plants and man.
The “Create in me a clean heart” of Psalms 51:10 would better be translated as “fill me with a clean heart”.
The passage in Ecc 12:1 translates this verb (which is in the participle form meaning “one that fattens/fills”) as “Creator” but the truth is that this word is in the plural form and they should have at least translated it as “Creators”. This is often a problem when relying on a translation as the translator will often “fix” the text so that it makes more sense. But as this word means to fatten or fill, this should be understood as “fatteners” or “fillers”. I believe this verse is speaking about the “teachers” (ones who fill you with knowledge) of your youth.Did ?Christ help fill up the kingdom with children of God? Yep he sure did. The kingdom was brought to it's fullest position through the work of christ.
Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 10 2010,21:57) Quote (gollamudi @ Aug. 10 2010,14:45) Jesus is the first work of God as per JW/Arianism/Preexistenceism…
It makes you wonder how the same people can believe that Adam is the fist man when Jesus supposedly existed before him.
kerwin! Even though Jesus is the firstborn of all creation, He existed in a Spirit Body, it is Adam who was the first Human Being made from the dust of the earth. While Jesus came forth from Jehovah God…. I do know how hard it is for you to believe that…. I too had a hard time with it…… But believe me I only want the truth and nothing but the truth to be taught here. So all I am asking of you to give it time, and look at the article that Heaven Net has. it explains it much better then I or anybody else can…..Also I do not believe in the trinity, some will put that along side of it, it is another subject and has nothing to do with why Jesus was the firstborn of all creation, why He was with His Father in Heaven and emptied Himself and became a mere man. But He did know where He came from otherwise He could have never said what He did in John 17:5. With all my Christian Love Irene
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