Preexistence

[kejonn]

Nick,

I think i asked this of you once, but didn't get an answer. Did Yeshua have to be born again (John 3)?

[kejonn]

Nick,

You also did not answer my question about whether you believe Yeshua was Savior by birth or did this come upon him at baptism? You answered that he was sent but “sent” has many connotations.

[NickHassan]

Quote (kejonn @ July 20 2007,17:24)

Nick, I think i asked this of you once, but didn't get an answer. Did Yeshua have to be born again (John 3)?

Hi KJ,
Being reborn from above is baptism in the Spirit.
Yes.
Jesus was baptised in the Spirit at the Jordan.

If he did not how can he demand we follow him?

[NickHassan]

Hi KJ,
Sent
Born
Appeared
Exalted
Raised up

Luke 2:11
For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord.

Acts 5:31
Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

Acts 13:23
Of this man's seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus:

2 Timothy 1:10
But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:

1 John 4:14
And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.

[NickHassan]

Quote (Not3in1 @ July 20 2007,16:42)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 19 2007,21:25) The ANOINTED is the Messiah or the CHRIST. He is shown in the Psalm to be the appointed ruler of the earth. Twice in the verse he is identified as the Son of God. That is why it caused so much offense to the enemies of God. The above quote is referring to Psalm 2. Nick, Psalm 2 is prophetic.  I know we disagree and that is OK. The reason I believe it is prophetic is because, as you say, the Psalm points out that the Messiah is the appointed ruler of the earth………..when he was on earth, was he a ruler?  Or did he become a ruler after he was acsended; when he returns to earth!  Yes, a ruler, but in the future.

Hi not3,
If it is all prophetic was he a son when he came before he was a ruler? Then why do you say it is all prophetic?

[NickHassan]

Quote (Not3in1 @ July 20 2007,17:02)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 20 2007,09:38) Hi J, Rev 20 ” 7And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. 9And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. “ Ps 2 seems to speak of this time when Christ with God is already ruling and his cords of authority are around the world leaders who would break out of them. 1Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing? 2The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, saying, 3Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us. 4He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the LORD shall have them in derision. 5Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure. 6Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion. “Seems to speak……” Nick, I have been reading about inference today.  I know there is a seperate thread for this topic, but as it relates to your ideas of Pslam 2 and Jesus preexisting, let me say this: You have taken a few verses from Rev. and mixed them with your ideas of what you think Psalm 2 is saying.  This is inference, deduction, deducing and by reason of logic. Believe what is simply written.  To believe otherwise is to count on your own intellect and wisdom.  Do the scriptures come out and say explicitly that Jesus preexisted?  No?  That don't believe it!  Don't count on your own deductions to make it so.

hmmm
Is no one allowed to offer ideas here not3?
Would you suppress the searching and make us all pc?
How will we ever grow?

[Not3in1]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 20 2007,18:57)

Quote (Not3in1 @ July 20 2007,16:42) Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 19 2007,21:25) The ANOINTED is the Messiah or the CHRIST. He is shown in the Psalm to be the appointed ruler of the earth. Twice in the verse he is identified as the Son of God. That is why it caused so much offense to the enemies of God. The above quote is referring to Psalm 2. Nick, Psalm 2 is prophetic.  I know we disagree and that is OK. The reason I believe it is prophetic is because, as you say, the Psalm points out that the Messiah is the appointed ruler of the earth………..when he was on earth, was he a ruler?  Or did he become a ruler after he was acsended; when he returns to earth!  Yes, a ruler, but in the future. Hi not3, If it is all prophetic was he a son when he came before he was a ruler? Then why do you say it is all prophetic?

Jesus was not a ruler when he was on earth.
He rode into town on a donkey, right?

It was the disciples hope that Jesus was going to restore Israel – but it didn't happen. And it hasn't happened…..yet!

Jesus was not the Only Son of God, the Annointed Messiah, until he was born in Bethlehem.

[Not3in1]

Sure, Nick, we all offer ideas. You know I am not trying to keep you from sharing or anyone else for that matter. However, like you, I want to point out that we should stick with what is written instead of grabbing scriptures from here and from there to create a theology.

[NickHassan]

Hi not3,
Jesus was anointed as the Christ at the Jordan but was a son before that.
He was king when he was here, though yet to see the fulness of his kingdom.
Zechariah 9:9
Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass.

Matthew 21:5
Tell ye the daughter of Sion, Behold, thy King cometh unto thee, meek, and sitting upon an ass, and a colt the foal of an ass.

My original point was that the Jews were on the lookout for the Son because of Psalm 2 and nobody has addressed that issue.

[GeneBalthrop]

nick…..> the Jew's then and now are still liiking for the massiah, but when Jesus came they did not reconize him as King, and when on trial Pilate ask him are you the king of the Jew's and Jesus answered;,”are you speaking for yourself about this or did others tell you this concerning me?” then he said,” my kingdom is not of this world. If my kingdom were of this world my servants would fight, so that I would not be delevered to the Jews, but (NOW) my Kingdom is not from here.
Then Pilate said are you a King then, Jesus answered, YOU SAY, that I am a King ( the word rightly was added it is not in the original text) then he says, “For this cause I was born, and for (THIS CAUSE) I have come into the world (THAT) I should bear witnes to the truth, everone who is of the truth hears My voice.

there is your answer Nick, no he was not a King when he came, but He certainly will be when He comes.

hope this helps ……..gene

[NickHassan]

Hi Gene,
The King came on a donkey.
He preached the kingdom and men everywhere were forcing their way in.
It will be made full and completed at his return.

[NickHassan]

Quote (Not3in1 @ July 20 2007,19:06)

Sure, Nick, we all offer ideas.  You know I am not trying to keep you from sharing or anyone else for that matter.  However, like you, I want to point out that we should stick with what is written instead of grabbing scriptures from here and from there to create a theology.

Hi not3,
I would like your opinion on how the verses align or to offer alternative ideas to keep a mutually positive aspect in what we do here. All suggestions are welcome on Psalm2 as it seems the most vital source for Peter and Paul in the OT.
You are a caring Mum. Would you tell your kids never to bake in case they burn their fingers or keep them home from school in case they get bullied?
Sensible caution is fine but we should not be scolding schoolma'ams discouraging honest searching with all it's attendant risks.

[Not3in1]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 21 2007,07:02)

Quote (Not3in1 @ July 20 2007,19:06) Sure, Nick, we all offer ideas.  You know I am not trying to keep you from sharing or anyone else for that matter.  However, like you, I want to point out that we should stick with what is written instead of grabbing scriptures from here and from there to create a theology. Hi not3, I would like your opinion on how the verses align or to offer alternative ideas to keep a mutually positive aspect in what we do here. All suggestions are welcome on Psalm2 as it seems the most vital source for Peter and Paul in the OT. You are a caring Mum. Would you tell your kids never to bake in case they burn their fingers or keep them home from school in case they get bullied? Sensible caution is fine but we should not be scolding schoolma'ams discouraging honest searching with all it's attendant risks.

Nick, to some degree you are a being a bit silly.  I believe this might be a case of you being able to dish-out critical advice, but then not able to receive it?

You caution all here to stay within what “is written.”  When I encourage you to do the same, somehow you have viewed this as being discouraging.  Not so.

When you take from one section of the OT and two sections of the NT, and put them together to form a doctrine (say, preexistence), you must be careful to not create a NEW doctrine.  

When one scripture is clear water (Jesus was conceived.  God is One.) it is within our best interest to take them at face value and not muddy the clear waters of understanding.  Do you think the doctrine of the Trinity would exist if we did not add to the scriptures that say, “God is One”?  Do you think the doctrine of preexistence would exist if we did not add to the scriptures that say, “Jesus was conceived”? We should align our beliefs with clear scripture, not align scripture with our muddied beliefs.

We can take scriptures from Gen. to Rev. and make our own doctrines.  But when scripture is clear, let it stand on it's own.

[kejonn]

Not3,

Check out the thread I started about the Wisdom of Solomon and Wisdom of Shirach in the “Other Writings” forum. I excerpted some interesting stuff about wisdom from two books of the Apocrypha.

[GeneBalthrop]

Nick….Jesus dose not have his Kingdom until He is installed as King and obisiously that hasn't happened yet or He would be hear, the plsm 2 you are refering to is prophetic a time at the end of the Millanial reign when Satan is released and goes out to decieve the nations then they will try to break the bands of Jesus and the FAther off of them. Jesus as King is a temperary position, because after the thousand yeard He turns everything over to the Father, as spoken of in coranthians,

He painly said if his kingdom were of this world this servants would not have allowed him to be taken. He is comming with great power and authority and then His Kingdom will be established in all the world just like it say's. what point are you driving at?.

[GeneBalthrop]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 21 2007,06:55)

Hi Gene, The King came on a donkey. He preached the kingdom and men everywhere were forcing their way in. It will be made full and completed at his return.

Nick…..> this might be part of the answer for you, first you do realize there is the Kingdom of God and there is also the Kingdom of Jesus Christ and they are different Kingdoms, the Kingdom of God is within us, and the Kingdom of Jesus is a physical Kingdom< Not a spritual Kingdom. Jesus came the first time proclamming the first time the Kingdom of God and when he comes the second time it will be a physical Kingdom. Hope this helps.

[NickHassan]

Hi Gene,
There is oNE kingdom.

Christ is the apponted king in the Kingdom of God, of heaven, and of David.

[NickHassan]

Quote (Not3in1 @ July 21 2007,07:19)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 21 2007,07:02) Quote (Not3in1 @ July 20 2007,19:06) Sure, Nick, we all offer ideas.  You know I am not trying to keep you from sharing or anyone else for that matter.  However, like you, I want to point out that we should stick with what is written instead of grabbing scriptures from here and from there to create a theology. Hi not3, I would like your opinion on how the verses align or to offer alternative ideas to keep a mutually positive aspect in what we do here. All suggestions are welcome on Psalm2 as it seems the most vital source for Peter and Paul in the OT. You are a caring Mum. Would you tell your kids never to bake in case they burn their fingers or keep them home from school in case they get bullied? Sensible caution is fine but we should not be scolding schoolma'ams discouraging honest searching with all it's attendant risks. Nick, to some degree you are a being a bit silly.  I believe this might be a case of you being able to dish-out critical advice, but then not able to receive it? You caution all here to stay within what “is written.”  When I encourage you to do the same, somehow you have viewed this as being discouraging.  Not so. When you take from one section of the OT and two sections of the NT, and put them together to form a doctrine (say, preexistence), you must be careful to not create a NEW doctrine.   When one scripture is clear water (Jesus was conceived.  God is One.) it is within our best interest to take them at face value and not muddy the clear waters of understanding.  Do you think the doctrine of the Trinity would exist if we did not add to the scriptures that say, “God is One”?  Do you think the doctrine of preexistence would exist if we did not add to the scriptures that say, “Jesus was conceived”?  We should align our beliefs with clear scripture, not align scripture with our muddied beliefs. We can take scriptures from Gen. to Rev. and make our own doctrines.  But when scripture is clear, let it stand on it's own.

Hi not3,
You have yet to respond to the question.

I love being corrected on matters of scripture but I do not love negative restrictions being applied to matters of study and the alignment of verses.

[Mr. Steve]

Christ pre-existence is a no-brainer. John 17:5 states that Christ was with the Father before the world was. How clear can the scripture be.

There are many other scriptures in the new testament that destroy the notion of a trinity. Christians should read all the scriptures where Christ is teaching and uses the phrase “your Father which is in Heaven”. He was distinguishing himself from the Father. He did not say your Father, which I am here before you. He didn't even teach for believers to pray to him, but to the Father, in the name of Jesus. In Matthew 4 Satan tests Christ and says “if ye be the Son of God”. He did not say if you be the Father manifest in the Flesh, or if you are God. Satan also said he would give to Christ the Kingdoms of the world if he would fall down and worship Satan. Christ response was that thou shalt worship the Lord thy God and him alone. Christ here is making two acknowledgements; first, that he is not God, and second, that he worships the Father as God. This obliderates the entire trinity concept because it says that Christ is equal in all respects to the Father. You never read in scripture where the Father worships the Son, but here we see the Son worships the Father. Again, establishing the Father as God and Christ being subject to God in all things.

[NickHassan]

amen

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