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Irene,
I amazed many with my knowledge of scripture at a young age, perhaps even younger than 12. I now believe I was full of ignorance at that time as like Jesus I have grown in both wisdom and stature even though his knowledge at that age appears clearly superior to mine at the same age. God gives the gift of knowledge to those he chooses when he chooses and in the amount he chooses.
As for human beings sinning I believe all human beings but Jesus chose to sin. They chose their evil path because their spirit was impure while Jesus was guided by the spirit of righteousness and so chose the path of righteousness. It is that spirit that Jesus is willing to share with those that believe. Since it guided him to a life without sinning even though he was tempted to do evil in the same degree you and I are it will do the same for us if we believe. Jesus’ faith in God was complete and we must seek to also have a complete faith and God will give it to us when we reach full maturity in the Anointed.
I am not going to argue about preexistence because what is important is that you believe all of God promises even though I am focused only on his promised of that those who truly believe will stop sinning for Jesus will set them truly free from serving sin. I focus on that one because if you fulfill it then you will also be poor in spirit, pure in heart, meek, your will mourn, merciful, a peacemaker, and anything else required by a true servant of God.
I am confident if you believe God’s promises then the false teachings Satan seeks to ensnare you with will fail to hold for you will be guided by God.
Your fellow student,
Kerwin
Kerwin,
you do well to believe as you do. However, don't flatter yourself in comparing yourself and Jesus. This gives an aire of believing that you COULD have been…
Not all are given to refinement and many will do well to believe so. Refinement is what the debaters are getting down to and if you cannot understand why they are debating then it seems it is not for you. So therefore don't indulge. if you do, then you will find yourself getting into difficulties and then 'inventing scriptural interpretations' as many do here. it will not benefit you and, in fact, it will draw to 'the wrong god'.
know your limits and don't try to run with the 'big boys' because it seems 'good to you'.
Nick Hassan,
According to the description of the Beareans they had a more noble spirit that the Thesalonians, Acts 17.
Character would be a synomyn.
Since scripture declares that all have sinned before they knew Christ they had an impure character before they knew the Anointed.
The Beareans for instance had an impure character despite being more noble than the Thesalonians.
Your fellow student,
Kerwin
Mike
I have taken your points a little out of order. It was just the way they occurred to me.
YOU SAY-
Why do you imagine you CAN be exactly like Christ? Why do you feel the need to be? He came to die for our sins so we can still be considered righteous in God's eyes even though there's no way we can live a sinless life – no matter how hard we try. His perfection paid the price for our imperfection. (Thank you Jesus and Praise Jah!)
1.So oh wise one, in what ways can we be like Christ and which ways not? Can you prove your answer scripturally? Can you show me the guide in scripture?
OR
As I said before, is it (according to your doctrine) left up to speculation and guesswork?
2.Saying that because we have been sinners we can never be like Christ is like saying that because we were once children we can never be adults.
3. I am sin free, aren’t you? My sins have been forgiven and put away as far as the East is from the West never to be remembered against me again.
DUH! HELLO? That is the exact reason Christ died to free us from sin. Anything else Is condemnation. I have let him set me free of sin. Have you not?
I may not be mature in character yet, but I am sin free. I am walking a sin free life because each and every sin I commit is under the blood. Aren’t yours?
You say –
Jesus taught us to love God with our whole heart, mind and soul. Can we imitate that even if Christ pre-existed? Sure. He taught us to love our neighbors like we love ourselves. Can we imitate that even though Christ pre-existed? Sure.
Reply –
Why and how did Christ do those things? Did he do it because he had knowledge of God that we do not have due to his preexistence? Did his preexistence give him any enchoragement to do these things that is not available to us? Then how can we follow in the same path as him?
You say-
What if we put a 3 year old boy in a monkey cage for 2 years? Wouldn't he be able to climb trees like a champ at the end of that time? Or would those monkeys have to be humans for him to imitate the way they climbed trees? Can humans not imitate people or things that are different from them?
Reply-
OMG!!! What kind of idiotic nonsense is this?
Is the there year old boy trying to learn how the monkeys make choices. Is he trying to have his character transformed to be like the monkey? Are you actually comparing becoming like Christ to imitating monkeys? OMG!!! Have you completely lost it?
You say-
Do you know the exact day Jesus will come on the clouds? Does not knowing what day it will be somehow diminish your ability to always try to be ready and acceptable to the one who will judge us?
Reply-
This has nothing to do with the subject. It has noting to do with dates and times. Did Christ preexistence impact in any way the decisions he made that led to his character development and faith to overcome or have relationship with God?
You say-
Do you know what New Jerusalem will look like exactly? Would the fact that Jesus did somehow mean we can't follow what he taught us?
Reply-
What does knowing what New Jerusalem looks like have to do with how I can develop my character to be like Christ’s? OR better yet how did he do it so that I can follow it. Was it due to some knowledge he had that I cannot get?
You say-
Does the fact that Jesus knew Abraham personally and we don't somehow mean we can't imitate the way Jesus acted towards others?
Reply-
Well there is a good case of circular reasoning. You assume that Christ knew Abraham personally based on the very doctrine which is in question and the subject of this debate? What silliness!
You say-
You think that if Jesus pre-existed, then we can't help the poor and needy or preach the gospel or obey the commandments or have faith?
Reply –
And how did Christ develop his character to have the desire to do such things? Did knowledge and/or experiences from his preexistence impact the way he developed his character? And how do you know if it did or not? Guesswork? Speculation?YOU SAY-
Jonah had first hand knowledge from God about the impending destruction of Ninevah. Did the population of Ninevah have to have that same firsthand knowledge spoken directly from God in order to save themselves? No. They did as they were told by someone who had MORE KNOWLEDGE ABOUT GOD'S PLAN THAN THEY DID, and they lived.
REPLY- WERE THOSE OF NEVEH ASKED YO USE JONAH AS AN EXAMPLE? THESE VERSES HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH THE SUBJECT.
You say –“ Why do you imagine you CAN be exactly like Christ?”
AND YOU SAY-
Lose your “wish” of who you want Jesus to be and start believing scripture.
Reply-
I am believing scripture. I believe that Christ is our example. You downgrade that aspect by forcing questions as to what extant we can be like Christ..
Read the following —
1And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers,
12for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ;
13until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ.
TO THE MEASURE TO THE STATURE WHICH BELONGS TO THE FULLNESS OF CHRIST. Obviously that means just like him.
14As a result, we are no longer to be children, tossed here and there by waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, by craftiness in deceitful scheming;
15but speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in all aspects into Him who is the head, even Christ,
GROW UP IN ALL ASPECTS INTO HIM WHO IS THE HEAD, EVEN CHRIST
In all aspects? Huh I wonder what that means?
16from whom the whole body, being fitted and held together by what every joint supplies, according to the proper working of each individual part, causes the growth of the body for the building up of itself in love.
Perhaps you wish to remain a child. I do not! If you choose to keep your sins and live in condemnation you will remain a child.You insinuate that we cannot be perfect and claim you believe scripture?
Philippians 3:15 Let us therefore, as many as are perfect, have this attitude; and if in anything you have a different attitude, God will reveal that also to you;
James 3:2 For we all stumble in many ways If anyone does not stumble in what he says, he is a perfect man, able to bridle the whole body as well.
Matthew 5:48 ”Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
2 Corinthians 7:1 [ Paul Reveals His Heart ] Therefore, having these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all defilement of flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.
Colossians 4:12 Epaphras, who is one of your number, a bondslave of Jesus Christ, sends you his greetings, always laboring earnestly for you in his prayers, that you may stand perfect and fully assured in all the will of God.
Hebrews 10:14 For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified.
WHAT DID CHRIST DO?
HE PREFECTED FOR ALL TIME THOSE WHO ARE SANCTIFIED
James 1:4 And let endurance have its perfect result, so that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing.
WHAT DID JAMES SAY? PERFECT AND COMPLETE, LACKING IN NOTHING?
You say-
Let's say you were an accountant all your life. I want to learn about how to follow Jesus through you. Do I need to posses every last bit of knowledge your mind contains about number crunching mish-mash to imitate your walk with Christ? What part of that knowledge that Jesus possessed do you actually need in order to follow his and his God's commands? Do you need to know everything the General knows to be a good soldier in the field?Reply-
Am I trying to imitate an accountant or a general?
“What part of that knowled
ge that Jesus possessed do you actually need in order to follow his and his God's commands? “
I need to know how Jesus followed the commands of his God. Did any of the knowledge he possessed from the prior life help him to do so? You cannot answer that because you do not know what knowledge he possessed. By this you introduce doubt into the teaching of the pure exact example of Christ. Your doctrine provides a loophole for the devil to say “Hath God said?” Your doctrine provides an opportunity for the devil to ask us if Christ was impacted or influenced in his abilities or character because of superior knowledge.
You say-
That is you my friend. I have seen at least a dozen scriptures posted by Irene, JA, t8, myself and others that CLEARLY say Jesus pre-existed, but it is you who ignore them or try to explain them away with faulty info about “firstborn” and “bara”.
Reply-
At this point it is not important whether my info is accurate or not. May not be. Doesn’t matter. What does matter is that your use of those scriptures to form a doctrine of preexistence is false. God wants us to succeed. He would not provide a man to be our example whose success could be because of some superior knowledge. That is not a perfect example and Christ was perfect in every thing that he did.
You say-
And what's worse, when shown that your info was faulty or incomplete, you don't even address that. Instead you post a long “story” about how I'm wrong and you're right.
Reply-
And you have never answered if Christ superior knowledge impacted his decisions or abilities to be perfected. AGAIN You cannot say outside of guesswork and speculation. YOU DON’T KNOW!!!
EERRRIC? And the door opens for the doubts about Christ as our example.
YOUR DOCTRINE DOES NOT PRODUCE HOPE IT PRODUCES DOUBT!!!
You say-
Why do you imagine you CAN be exactly like Christ? Why do you feel the need to be?
Reply-
Hello? Earth to Mike are you there?
Why do you feel the need to be?
Right there in that one sentence sums up your whole sad act. You are so duped by this false doctrine that you have thrown out all the teaching of becoming like Christ. Obviously you do not feel a need to be like Christ. How very sad for you.Eph 6
10Finally, be strong in the Lord and in the strength of His might.
11Put on the full armor of God, so that you will be able to stand firm against the schemes of the devil.
12For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places.
13Therefore, take up the full armor of God, so that you will be able to resist in the evil day, and having done everything, to stand firm.
The word everything here means, quite, all, the whole, all together, all
We are to stand firm as Christ stood firm. It means doing everything not just some of it.25Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for her,
26so that He might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word,
27that He might present to Himself the church in all her glory, having no spot or wrinkle or any such thing; but that she would be holy and blameless.
I WANT TO BE PART OF THAT BRIDE. I WANT TO KNOW HOW CHRIST DID IT. DID HE DO IT IN A WAY THAT I CAN FOLLOW OR DID HE DO IT VIA SOME SUPERIOR KNOWLEDGE THAT HE HAD FROM A PREXISTENCE?BTW –
I have already discussed Phil. I posted a web site that clearly expressed my take on the subject. You refused to read it. And you claim I do not deal with your posts? There is the pot calling the kettle black for sure!Nick Hassan and JustAskin,
You seemed to have missed a couple of things. One is that I strive to credit God with granting me the share of knowledge he did at an early age even though I confused that knowledge in my ignorance. That I also acknowledged as well as Jesus having superior knowledge at the same age.
As for comparing myself to Jesus being a sin. Where is that written? In fact what Jesus teaches us is that it is enough that a student is like his teacher and a servant like his master, Matthew 10:24-25, and that when fully trained a student is like his teacher, Luke 6:40.
I freely admit I am not fully trained at this time nor was I even now as trained as Jesus was when he was 12 though I did have some knowledge of scripture as did he. I believe his knowledge of scripture and definitely his understanding was superior to mine at the same age and he is still my teacher.
So comparing oneself to Jesus is not a sin and in fact we are called to be like God in true righteousness and holiness, Ephesians 4:24. Sadly I fall short of that goal but I must compare myself to it in order to determine whether or not I fall short.
Your fellow student,
Kerwin
Added a couple of words for clarification.
Martain,
Your wrote:
Quote there's no way we can live a sinless life – no matter how hard we try.
God disagrees with you, at least with the statement “there's no way we can live a sinless life” as Jesus is the way.
You are correct though that if “we try” that one is domed to failure as the nature of humans is evil and thus undermines any attempt we make to do what is right.
But through Jesus we get a new character that is created like God in true righteouseness and holines and if we live according to that spirit we will not sin for there is no sin in God.
The question then becomes do you have that character to live by and if you do them why are you not living by it for it is the power of God to do all he commands.
Your fellow student,
Kerwin
Barley,
I do not know what you believe the spirit is, but a couple of synonyms for spirit are nature and character. Due to the sin of Adam and Eve all men inherit a sinful nature otherwise known as an impure spirit. Jesus instructed us that we must get a new character to enter the kingdom of heaven and that should be self evident to anyone who knows God and what he desires of his people. We know God desires that we put on a new self that is like him in righteousness and holiness and that we receive and live by this new self through obeying all Jesus’ teachings and thus enter the new covenant and live according to its dictates.
I have used a number of synonyms for spirit in this post and I hope you are not confused by that practice but scripture also uses a number of synonyms so I feel it is appropriate to do so.
Your fellow student,
Kerwin
To All…………..The spirit is willing but the Flesh is weak , “FOR THE GOOD THAT (I) WOULD DO (i) DON'T DO , BUT THE EVIL (i) WOULD NOT DO THAT (I) DO, O WRETCHED MAN THAT (I) AM WHO CAN DELVER ME FROM THIS BODY OF DEATH? (I) THANK GO THROUGH JESUS CHRIST. “THEREFORE IT IS NO LONGER (I) WHO DO IT BUT SIN THAT DWELLS IN MY BODY'. And again “THEREFORE IF WE SAY WE HAVE NO SIN WE ARE LIAR AND ABIDE NOT IN THE TRUTH”. Truth is we all are not yet perfected and we still sin at times but we should not be practicing sin and should be overcoming sin more and more as we grow and mature in the faith. We have a way to be forgiven by God we simply have to admit our sins to him and He is faithful to forgive us our sins (AND) to cleanse us from all unrighteousness , we are told.
peace and love to you all…………………………gene
Kerwin,
If you are failing to understand what i am saying to you then you do not have the Spirit of Truth.
The Spirit does not fight against itself.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 23 2010,14:27) Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 23 2010,12:55) Hi MB,
The Spirit that made Christ Jesus speak and work as God.
Without the anointing he was an ordinary man.[Is53]
That anointing was with God and was God.
Yes Nick,Ordinary just like us, right?
EXCEPT HIS FATHER WAS GOD'S HOLY SPIRIT! What part of that do you knuckleheads not get?
Face it guys. Who else alive at that time (or any other time) didn't have a human father? Don't you think that would have made Jesus different right from the jump?
mike
Mike-
You say-
Ordinary just like us, right?EXCEPT HIS FATHER WAS GOD'S HOLY SPIRIT! What part of that do you knuckleheads not get?
Reply-
Do you hold that the Holy Spirit is a separate entity from God as the Trinitarians do? OR do you believe that the Holy Spirit is simply God. The fact that he is the only begotten son of God makes no difference either.Here is the definition of Begotten.
1.a son
a.rarely used for the young of animals
b.generally used of the offspring of men
c.in a restricted sense, the male offspring (one born by a father and of a mother)
d.in a wider sense, a descendant, one of the posterity of any one,
1.the children of Israel
2.sons of Abraham
e.used to describe one who depends on another or is his follower
1.a pupil
2.son of man
a.term describing man, carrying the connotation of weakness and mortality
b.son of man, symbolically denotes the fifth kingdom in Daniel 7:13 and by this term its humanity is indicated in contrast with the barbarity and ferocity of the four preceding kingdoms (the Babylonian, the Median and the Persian, the Macedonian, and the Roman) typified by the four beasts. In the book of Enoch (2nd Century) it is used of Christ.
c.used by Christ himself, doubtless in order that he might intimate his Messiahship and also that he might designate himself as the head of the human family, the man, the one who both furnished the pattern of the perfect man and acted on behalf of all mankind. Christ seems to have preferred this to the other Messianic titles, because by its lowliness it was least suited to foster the expectation of an earthly Messiah in royal splendour.
3.son of God
a.used to describe Adam (Luke 3:38)
b.used to describe those who are born again (Luke 20:36) and of angels and of Jesus Christ
c.of those whom God esteems as sons, whom he loves, protects and benefits above others
1.in the OT used of the Jews
2.in the NT of Christians
3.those whose character God, as a loving father, shapes by chastisements (Hebrews 12:5-8)
those who revere God as their father, the pious worshippers of God, those who in character and life resemble God, those who are governed by the Spirit of God, repose the same calm and joyful trust in God which children do in their parents (Romans 8:14, Galatians 3:26), and hereafter in the blessedness and glory of the life eternal will openly wear this dignity of the sons of God. Term used preeminently of Jesus Christ, as enjoying the supreme love of God, united to him in affectionate intimacy, privy to his saving councils, obedient to the Father's will in all his acts
You say-
Face it guys. Who else alive at that time (or any other time) didn't have a human father? Don't you think that would have made Jesus different right from the jump?
Reply-
The fact that God impregnated Mary by some miraculous way does not mean that the result was any less human then us.
God made Adam from the dust of the ground while my genetic makeup comes from my parents. Is one of us not human?
We are all sons of God.
Nick made this point earlier.
Luke 3:38the son of Enosh, the son of Seth, the son of Adam, the son of God.Quote (kerwin @ July 23 2010,16:07) Martain, Your wrote:
Quote there's no way we can live a sinless life – no matter how hard we try.
God disagrees with you, at least with the statement “there's no way we can live a sinless life” as Jesus is the way.
You are correct though that if “we try” that one is domed to failure as the nature of humans is evil and thus undermines any attempt we make to do what is right.
But through Jesus we get a new character that is created like God in true righteouseness and holines and if we live according to that spirit we will not sin for there is no sin in God.
The question then becomes do you have that character to live by and if you do them why are you not living by it for it is the power of God to do all he commands.
Your fellow student,
Kerwin
Actually I was quoting Mike who said we cannot live a sinless life. I said that becaus my sins are forgiven and put as far as the East is from the West I live a sinless or sin free life.Martian,
The only Sins Jesus Died for are the ORIGINAL Sin of Adam that condemned all mankind.
We are now responsible for our own sin.
But woopydoo, if you are forgiven your personal sins. What are you doing on this Forum then, Should you not be out telling everyone and saving others?Gene,
You need to consider the context of a scripture when you interpret it. In this case Jesus was addressing the disciples were giving into the physical limits of their bodies despirit their desire to do as Jesus asked them. It is God who placed limits on the human body and being stopped by those limits is not a sin. Giving into temptation is not being stopped by the limits of the human body as God does not set such a limit then command us to exceed it knowing he has set us up for failure.
Your fellow student,
Kerwin
Hi JA,
All HAVE SINNED..[Rom3]Where is this ORIGINAL SIN you speak of in scripture?
It is in catholic theologyJustAskin,
Since you claim to have the Spirit of truth them explain why what you said did not contradict even though clearly seemed to conflict with what Jesus taught.
I do not believe you can since you have chosen to “elevate” Jesus to a place that he does not want to be at. Jesus is King of both heaven in earth but he is still a human being and nothing else but a human being. That is the position that God gave him and prepared for him beforehand. He does not need or want your elevation as God is the one who decided his kind and what position of authority he would hold.
What he wants and demands from you is absolute obedience to his teachings and through that onbedience you will also come to righteous as God is righteous.
Your fellow student,
Kerwin
Quote (JustAskin @ July 23 2010,16:37) Martian, The only Sins Jesus Died for are the ORIGINAL Sin of Adam that condemned all mankind.
We are now responsible for our own sin.
But woopydoo, if you are forgiven your personal sins. What are you doing on this Forum then, Should you not be out telling everyone and saving others?
OMG Are you really going to say that? No wonder some think you are out of it.Quote (kerwin @ July 23 2010,18:07) Martain, Isn't that using God's name in vain?
Your fellow student,
Kerwin
Actually no. The word “name” in hebrew is shem and means character. That particular commandment literally means to not misrepresent the character of God. It would be like Claiming that Christ is God and then saying he is capable of sin. That is misrepresenting God's character and is taking God's name in vain.
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