Preexistence

[GeneBalthrop]

Quote (t8 @ July 20 2010,15:59)

Take note Gene. Philippians 2:6-9 6 Who, being in very nature God,      did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, 7 but made himself nothing,      taking the very nature of a servant,      being made in human likeness. 8 And being found in appearance as a man,      he humbled himself      and became obedient to death—         even death on a cross! 9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place      and gave him the name that is above every name, Let's recap. He existed in the form of God or with God's nature. He made himself nothing. Was made in human likeness He humbled himself Was obedient to death Was exalted by God to the highest place. Now look at this: John 17:5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began. John 17:24 “Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world. So now you can add one more bullet point: The exalted place he went to was the same glory that he had with the Father before the world began. Think about that. “Before the world began”. Hard to refute that because it is scripture. And this is the answer to your question. I am sorry that I cannot give you specifics. Scripture says that what we will become is a mystery except to say that we will be like him. So as you can see, it is a bit of a mystery and hence why you are able to dodge your way around this subject sometimes. But the above is conclusive in that he existed in the form of God and then emptied himself and came in the form of man and is now in the glory that he had with the Father before the world began.

T8……….Lets take one thing at a time…..OK…..Phil 2:6..> Who, (being) My Greek translates it the as (EXISTING) a present tense expression. Lets stay there first what do you with some research think about that. Lets be honest with each other here brother. That is to me the Key of understand that scripture. Now if we decide it is indeed Present tense then that can greately change our perceptions there. Because it would not add any credibility to a past tense.

peace and love to you and yours brother………………gene

Ps.. and if you can get around to it please reinstate my editing rights brother.

[martian]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 20 2010,11:14)

Hi Martian, Your post is a very well laid out story and explanation of why you understand it like you do, but it has major holes in it. 1.  I don't read in scripture anywhere about Adam and Eve thinking they were God or equal to Him.  Gen 3:5 says, 5″For God knows that in the day you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.“ The only way Satan told them they would be like God is in knowing good from evil.  Later verses have them hiding from God, and Eve recognizing that it was through the help of Jehovah that she had borne a child.  Their offspring were also well aware that they were not God(s) just because they knew good from evil.  They feared Jehovah God.  Adam had no possible expectation of “grasping equality with God”.  So using that as an “anti” last Adam comparison doesn't really work. Besides, when on earth did people think Jesus WAS God himself?  How could you say he didn't grasp at equality with God when he was on earth if nobody ever thought he was God Himself?  Son of God – yes.  Demon possessed – yes.  Was making himself equal to God in a blasphemous way – yes.  But who ever thought he WAS God while he was on earth? First you say: Quote Jesus appeared as a God to the people because He functioned as God to them Then you say: Quote Jesus took on the appearance of a bond servant to the people and did not use His position to exalt himself or meet his own needs. Which appearance did he have?  God or bond servant?  Isaiah 53 says, 2 He grew up before him like a tender shoot,       and like a root out of dry ground.       He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him,       nothing in his appearance that we should desire him. 3 He was despised and rejected by men,       a man of sorrows, and familiar with suffering.       Like one from whom men hide their faces       he was despised, and we esteemed him not. 4 Surely he took up our infirmities       and carried our sorrows,       yet we considered him stricken by God,       smitten by him, and afflicted. I never had the picture in my mind of Jesus like the handsome man in the paintings hanging from a cross.  I don't think he had a “handsome” or “godly” appearance, but that's just how I imagine it from Isaiah and other scriptures. Back to your post.  The main hole I find is that Jesus was in the “form” of a man ever since Mary gave birth to him.  He was never in the “form” of God while on earth no matter what words you use to describe “form”.  People flocked to him because of his works and teachings, not because they thought he looked like what God would look like as a man.  This “godly” appearance is never mentioned in scripture that I'm aware of.  So I don't know where to fit in “being in the form of God” while Jesus was on earth.  Plus, how could he be in the “form of God” on earth, then suddenly empty himself to become “in the form of man”?  When did this happen?  Did he stop washing his clothes or cleaning himself?  I mean, when is it said that Jesus' physical appearance on earth went from a “godly” one to a “regular guy” one? Too many holes Martian.  Your story doesn't explain, even if Jesus had an “outward appearance of a godly person” WHEN HE WAS A MAN, how it could be said he emptied himself to become in the form OF A MAN when he was ALREADY A MAN? I agree that the verses are about how we should imitate Jesus by leaving behind all we have to follow God.  But I think the whole point is that Jesus left more than a carpenter's life behind.  It was his wonderful position at God's right hand that he willingly left behind to do his God's will.  And that's actually what Phil says…….I think you read too much into it to serve your own purpose of making what Jesus accomplished seem more attainable to you. my two cents, mike

You say –

Your post is a very well laid out story and explanation of why you understand it like you do, but it has major holes in it.

1. I don't read in scripture anywhere about Adam and Eve thinking they were God or equal to Him. Gen 3:5 says,

5″For God knows that in the day you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.“

The only way Satan told them they would be like God is in knowing good from evil.

Reply-
I never said he claimed God status. I said that Adam and Eve would be like God. They became like God in the sense that they now knew dysfunction. Previous to this they had no knowledge of that possibility. This knowledge was what cost Adam his position of dominion over the Earth. He was King of the world until the fall.

You say-
Later verses have them hiding from God, and Eve recognizing that it was through the help of Jehovah that she had borne a child. Their offspring were also well aware that they were not God(s) just because they knew good from evil. They feared Jehovah God. Adam had no possible expectation of “grasping equality with God”. So using that as an “anti” last Adam comparison doesn't really work.

Reply-
But they were continually making themselves as God in that they continued to operate in dysfunction which before the fall they had no knowledge of.

You continue –
Besides, when on earth did people think Jesus WAS God himself? How could you say he didn't grasp at equality with God when he was on earth if nobody ever thought he was God Himself? Son of God – yes. Demon possessed – yes. Was making himself equal to God in a blasphemous way – yes. But who ever thought he WAS God while he was on earth?

Reply-
Again I never said He claimed God status. I said he had a right to claim status as king of Israel and could have lorded over the people as a man, but he did not.

You say-
First you say-

Quote

Jesus appeared as a God to the people because He functioned as God to them

Then you say:

Quote

Jesus took on the appearance of a bond servant to the people and did not use His position to exalt himself or meet his own needs.

Which appearance did he have? God or bond servant? Isaiah 53 says,

2 He grew up before him like a tender shoot,
and like a root out of dry ground.
He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him,
nothing in his appearance that we should desire him.

3 He was despised and rejected by men,
a man of sorrows, and familiar with suffering.
Like one from whom men hide their faces
he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

4 Su
rely he took up our infirmities
and carried our sorrows,
yet we considered him stricken by God,
smitten by him, and afflicted.

I never had the picture in my mind of Jesus like the handsome man in the paintings hanging from a cross. I don't think he had a “handsome” or “godly” appearance, but that's just how I imagine it from Isaiah and other scriptures.

Reply-
Perhaps it was a wrong use of the term Appearance. My point was that he functioned as God would toward the people.
Example – If you were to see a miracle take place in which the power of God flowed through a man you might say “Boy that appears to be God in action.” Did you actually see God? Was the man God? No but you did experience something that that made you think it was God in action.
This was the point he made in john 10 when he quoted psalm 82 to the Jews. He was pointing out that they should act as Gods to the people. This function of Christ is what made him appear as a God. Not physical appearance because God is an invisible breath or wind but in action and function his authority would appear Godly.
Perhaps the best way to understand it is to say Jesus did and spoke things that made him seem like a God, but in reality he was only living the normal life of perfected unfallen man. Unlike Adam he did not give up his position of King and Priest through sin. He could have walked the Earth as a king, yet he did not use that rightful authority to lord over mankind but was a servant to them instead. Jesus surrendered and emptied himself of his firstborn ligitimate right to rule and his right to be king of Israel to be a servant instead. Jesus did not give it up through sin. But emptied himself of those rights to serve his brethren. For THIS reason he was highly exalted.
If there is no correlation between Adam and Christ then why is Jesus called the second Adam. Why are they often compared.
4Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come
Romans 5.
15But the free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many.
16The gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned; for on the one hand the judgment arose from one transgression resulting in condemnation, but on the other hand the free gift arose from many transgressions resulting in justification.
17For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.
18So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.
19For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous.

Romans 5:12
Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned—

This also ties in with the issue of “firstborn”.
Adam was the chronological firstborn human son of God. He gave up his rights as firstborn through sin. God appointed another human son to the firstborn position, Jesus. Jesus did not sin and therefore was given the double portion and all firstborn rights including becoming head over the household. That’s us the church. God’s household. This precedent is set in scripture many times where the chronological firstborn gives his rights away through sin and another son is chosen/appointed to receive those rights. In fact this practice became so common that laws were made forcing Fathers to show cause why the first birthed son should be denied the firstborn rights.
I apologize if my use of the word appearance was misleading.

[martian]

One more point. the holes you claim in my post are not from the interpretation but rather from my poor explination. this is precisely why I pointed you toward the web site. He brought out what I believe in a much more concise and clear manner.

[martian]

Mike –
As a side note to our look at Phil 2 let me post this from the Ancient Hebrew Research Center concerning the culture of the Hebrews and the way they thought and expressed themselves.
http://www.ancient-hebrew.org/12_thought.html
Greek thought describes objects in relation to its appearance. Hebrew thought describes objects in relation to its function.
A deer and an oak are two very different objects and we would never describe them in the same way with our Greek form of descriptions. The Hebrew word for both of these objects is איל (ayil) because the functional description of these two objects are identical to the ancient Hebrews, therefore, the same Hebrew word is used for both. The Hebraic definition of איל is “a strong leader”.
A deer stag is one of the most powerful animals of the forest and is seen as “a strong leader” among the other animals of the forest. Also the oak tree's wood is very hard compared to other trees such as the pine which is soft and is seen as a “strong leader” among the trees of the forest.
Notice the two different translations of the Hebrew word איל in Psalms 29.9. The NASB and KJV translates it as “The voice of the LORD makes the deer to calve” while the NIV translates it as “The voice of the LORD twists the oaks”. The literal translation of this verse in Hebrew thought would be; “The voice of the LORD makes the strong leaders turn”.
When translating the Hebrew into English, the translator must give a Greek description to this word which is why we have two different ways of translating this verse. This same word is also translated as a “ruler” in 2 Kings 24.15, who is a man who is a strong leader.
Another example of Greek thought would be the following description of a common pencil: “it is yellow and about 8 inches long”. A Hebrew description of the pencil would be related to its function such as “I write words with it”. Notice that the Hebrew description uses the verb “write” while the Greek description uses the adjectives “yellow” and “long”. Because of Hebrew's form of functional descriptions, verbs are used much more frequently then adjectives.

When God corrected the leaders of Israel in Psalms 82. He was not telling them they were literally Gods.
He was telling them they should function as Gods to the people.
In the Israel of Christ time it was common when Rabbis would meet to discuss scripture. In john 10 Christ uses a tactic often used wherein a person quotes a small portion of the OT and the listener would understand it in its entire context. It is called a Remez. He quotes Psalms 82 and the Jews he was speaking to knew he was correcting them for not functioning as God toward the people. He was contrasting himself as acting as God to the people to their not acting as God. For this they hated him.

I said all of that to show that the way in which Jesus functioned toward the people made him appear/seem like God and thought of in those terms. Not literal God but functioning as God would function. A perfect representation of God.

[JustAskin]

TheodoreJ,

Does it seem that way to you?

Did it seem wrong to you?

Was it wrong what was said?

Did the post contain truth?

Are you making a criticism, positive or negative?

Answer these questions and the answer you seek will be within.

[davidbfun]

Quote (Arnold @ July 20 2010,19:14)

Quote (martian @ July 20 2010,09:04) Quote (Arnold @ July 20 2010,07:17) Quote (martian @ July 19 2010,12:32) Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 19 2010,12:18) Quote (martian @ July 19 2010,12:01) Is the teaching of Christ as our example my “wish” or is it a scriptural truth? Christ as our example is a scriptural truth.  Christ as less than what he was just so you can feel more empowered is your “wish”. mike I do not read an answer to my second question. Are you saying that Christ gave up all that made him different then humanity so he could be our example? Phil does not each that. Read the web site I offered in response to your questions. Martain!   Jesus is the Son of God and was never all the way like us.  What difference does it make anyway.  You are grasping for straws, just like the website.  i read some of it, it is so much to grasp, and I do agree with some of it.  But at the end what He was saying is that Phil. 2 tells us how we should live.  But the fact is that Jesus was all of that too.  So what difference does it make.  He is still the firstborn of all creation.  He was with His Father before the world was, by Jesus own words, in John 17:5 “And now O Father glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.” Also John 1:1 He was there with God in the beginning, and He will come again as “The Word of God. Rev, 19:13 He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and  His name is called The Word of God. verse 16 And on His robe and on His thigh a name written:” KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS. The connection I am trying to show here is that the Word that became flesh is Jesus in verse 14 of John 1 It all hangs together.  And all the rest of the Scriptures, which I am not writing out.   John 6:38-40 where He s saying that He came down from Heaven to do the will of His Father…. Col. 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of the creation of God….. Rev.. 3:14 Says that He is the beginning of the creation of God.  I will write this over and over again if you all do not get it…..I could understand if there would only be one Scripture, but all of these and you still don't except it?  Come on stop calling Jesus a liar….He said that He came from Heaven and that He was there before the world was…. May the LORD our Father open your mind and stop  being stubborn about this….. I will always say when I am wrong and I have done so here too, how about you…….Irene Irene, I want to say this nicely if possible. I have no desire to hurt your feelings. However I have little respect for your interpretation practices. All you ever seem to be able to do is post the same scriptures over and over again. You refuse to study the word firstborn to see if you are right about it. You do the same with creation. You offer no proof that you opinion fits within the culture of the times. You do no cross referencing to other scriptures on the same subject. You seem to have forgotten that there is an Old Testament and that nothing in the NT is to be understood outside of the OT. You ask me why I do not believe what you post. You have posted nothing that I cannot get reading my own English translation. But I want to know what the writers meant in their language. Example –  If I say today that something is “cool” I would be indicating that it is good or I like it.  If I were to say the same sentence 100 years ago some one would ask about it's temperature. The meanings of words change over time according to the culture and translations. You cannot just read an English translation of the bible ad think you understand the Greek or Hebrew behind it. You talk about following man but if you are depending on the translator to give you the correct and complete meaning of a word then you are following the translator. I really don't care if you have respect for me or not.  What I do care about is God's Word and it tells me that Jesus was in Heaven and came down to do the will of the Father…. Point one you make, I gave two Scriptures as far as firstborn goes, I gave two Scriptures as far as The Word of God goes…I gave two Scriptures that said that Jesus was in Heaven with His Father….. And yet you have no respect for those Scriptures and deny them over and over again….. I should really listen to my Husband and don't  say anything to you no more…. I would not repeat what He called you….. so much for respect….??? So just because what I am saying and what Jesus is saying is not in the OT we should ignore those Scriptures now?? That is about the silliest thing I have heard yet.  And for your information I got most of those Scriptures from t8 HN….. so much for studying them….. How do you think I started to believing in them in the first place….. It was a JW that made us aware of this… and we studied to see if it was the truth…..boy am I glad my Husband and I agree on most issues……And as far as looking at them in another language, weisst du ich kann deutsch sprechen und wir haben auch eine deutsche Bible, ist dass genug, oder muss ich noch eine andere sprache lernen. Ich bin zu alt dafuer…. es faengt jetzt an zu regnen, bei euch auch??  May the LORD be with you, Irene

Hello Irene,

I love your German ending! lol  We all have to learn….

It seems that it doesn't matter to some if you use Scripture or not because when you do they deny it, negate it or change it to fit their preconceived theology.

Let's try some LOGIC as you and many others  have used excellent Scripture verses to no avail.

#1 Jesus is son of God.

Irene your verses stating that Jesus is the “firstborn” of all creation agrees with him being son OF God (Elohim).

Next you're right again when Jesus is the only “begotten” son of God (El-YHVH).

How he comes into existence people want to argue. The fact is that he is a son and a son is the offspring of his parents.

#2 Jesus' pre-existence

IF Jesus emptied himself there should be a vessel he emptied himself from.

What physical forms (vessels) were in Heaven?

Angels.

Scripture says that angels do not di
e….therefore in order to become our Savior he could not come to Earth in his angelic body so…..he emptied himself and took the humanly form of a bond-servant…to the death.

Ever noticed or wondered why the Bible compares Jesus with an angel? (..he became a little lower than the angels…) and his spirit was placed into Mary by The Holy Spirit….

Many times God SENT or GAVE us His son which means he had to be in Heaven WITH God.  If he was WITH God he could not be God whom he was WITH.

Scripture says that he was like us in every way except that The Holy Spirit in-vitroed Jesus into the Virgin Mary versus Joseph impregnating her.  And because of his being like us and dying he has become OUR High Priest and mediator (man Jesus).

IMO  It would be no big deal for a “perfect” God to come to Earth and live a “perfect” life, would it? So, Jesus can't be God because he was OUR servant.  Who would ever think that God would leave His position in Heaven to come to Earth to serve us?  Ridiculous.

#3 Re:  “WORD”

“Word” and “Word of God” are titles of Jesus Christ. Some will argue that he was the physical words coming out of God's mouth; silly, no?

If Jesus is the Word of God he performed the duties in the physical body of The Angel of the Lord.  Angels are messengers and they spread the “WORD”. And they are God's Ambassadors carrying the same weight as if God were doing the talking.

Germans are known to be pragmatic and good in math so I present the concept of Elohim: God in Hebrew

MATHEMATICALLY:

{ , } = Set (Whole)
⊂ = Subset
≮ ≯ = not less than; not greater than

Elohim (Hebrew) =  {YHVH, Holy Spirit}= God (English)

YHVH ⊂ Elohim
Holy Spirit ⊂ Elohim

YHVH ≠ Holy Spirit
YHVH ≮≯ Holy Spirit

Holy Spirit ≠ YHVH
Holy Spirit ≮≯ YHVH

YHVH = {Body, Spirit}
Holy Spirit = {7 Spirits}

I have a more detailed presentation in Power Point so if anyone wants a copy drop me a PM and ask for Godhead.

Thanks,

David

[JustAskin]

Davidbfun,

You always make a good post … Then kill it with a silly end statement.

Apart from the 'Mathematic' bit you posted well.

My two recommendations:
1) Don't analyse God by formulae. Please.
2) Write your end part…then delete it before posting!

[Ed J]

Quote (JustAskin @ July 21 2010,05:35)

Davidbfun, You always make a good post … Then kill it with a silly end statement. Apart from the 'Mathematic' bit you posted well. My two recommendations: 1) Don't analyse God by formulae. Please. 2) Write your end part…then delete it before posting!

Hi JustAskin,

Did you flunk math, for you not to like mathematical formulas?

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[JustAskin]

Edj,

I'm ok with mathematics.

It is dishonour to encase God in mathematical formulae. It will lead to man claiming that he invented God.

This is a broader subject that should not be encouraged.

[NickHassan]

Hi SF,
Myths and legends based on logic and not revelation.

[martian]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 20 2010,11:21)

Quote (martian @ July 20 2010,06:20) Do you really insist that your doctrine is true when it produces doubt on the mission of Christ as our example? Are you so intrenced in your doctrine that you would sacrifice a major mission of the Messiah to keep it intact? Is that in any way functional? Do you care if your doctrine functions to support Christ's mission or does it not matter to you? Hi Martian, This is the very crux of your problem.  You are appealing to me to see things YOUR way, not because you have scripture that denies MY way, but solely based on your “wish” to have Christ be exactly like we are.   You are almost trying to “guilt” me into agreeing with your view – against what scripture teaches – just so we can be happy knowing “whatever Jesus did, we can do to, because we're EXACTLY like him”. I'm sorry, man.  That's just not scriptural. peace and love, mike

Having christ as our example is my wish again. christ as our example is not scriptural.
You are willing to throw that away to keep your inbterpretation of scripture. You work against the gospel.

[NickHassan]

Hi MB,
Of course CHRIST refers to the anointed man, not just an ordinary man..

[martian]

Quote (Arnold @ July 20 2010,11:14)

Quote (martian @ July 20 2010,09:04) Quote (Arnold @ July 20 2010,07:17) Quote (martian @ July 19 2010,12:32) Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 19 2010,12:18) Quote (martian @ July 19 2010,12:01) Is the teaching of Christ as our example my “wish” or is it a scriptural truth? Christ as our example is a scriptural truth.  Christ as less than what he was just so you can feel more empowered is your “wish”. mike I do not read an answer to my second question. Are you saying that Christ gave up all that made him different then humanity so he could be our example? Phil does not each that. Read the web site I offered in response to your questions. Martain!   Jesus is the Son of God and was never all the way like us.  What difference does it make anyway.  You are grasping for straws, just like the website.  i read some of it, it is so much to grasp, and I do agree with some of it.  But at the end what He was saying is that Phil. 2 tells us how we should live.  But the fact is that Jesus was all of that too.  So what difference does it make.  He is still the firstborn of all creation.  He was with His Father before the world was, by Jesus own words, in John 17:5 “And now O Father glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.” Also John 1:1 He was there with God in the beginning, and He will come again as “The Word of God. Rev, 19:13 He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and  His name is called The Word of God. verse 16 And on His robe and on His thigh a name written:” KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS. The connection I am trying to show here is that the Word that became flesh is Jesus in verse 14 of John 1 It all hangs together.  And all the rest of the Scriptures, which I am not writing out.   John 6:38-40 where He s saying that He came down from Heaven to do the will of His Father…. Col. 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of the creation of God….. Rev.. 3:14 Says that He is the beginning of the creation of God.  I will write this over and over again if you all do not get it…..I could understand if there would only be one Scripture, but all of these and you still don't except it?  Come on stop calling Jesus a liar….He said that He came from Heaven and that He was there before the world was…. May the LORD our Father open your mind and stop  being stubborn about this….. I will always say when I am wrong and I have done so here too, how about you…….Irene Irene, I want to say this nicely if possible. I have no desire to hurt your feelings. However I have little respect for your interpretation practices. All you ever seem to be able to do is post the same scriptures over and over again. You refuse to study the word firstborn to see if you are right about it. You do the same with creation. You offer no proof that you opinion fits within the culture of the times. You do no cross referencing to other scriptures on the same subject. You seem to have forgotten that there is an Old Testament and that nothing in the NT is to be understood outside of the OT. You ask me why I do not believe what you post. You have posted nothing that I cannot get reading my own English translation. But I want to know what the writers meant in their language. Example –  If I say today that something is “cool” I would be indicating that it is good or I like it.  If I were to say the same sentence 100 years ago some one would ask about it's temperature. The meanings of words change over time according to the culture and translations. You cannot just read an English translation of the bible ad think you understand the Greek or Hebrew behind it. You talk about following man but if you are depending on the translator to give you the correct and complete meaning of a word then you are following the translator. I really don't care if you have respect for me or not.  What I do care about is God's Word and it tells me that Jesus was in Heaven and came down to do the will of the Father…. Point one you make, I gave two Scriptures as far as firstborn goes, I gave two Scriptures as far as The Word of God goes…I gave two Scriptures that said that Jesus was in Heaven with His Father….. And yet you have no respect for those Scriptures and deny them over and over again….. I should really listen to my Husband and don't  say anything to you no more…. I would not repeat what He called you….. so much for respect….??? So just because what I am saying and what Jesus is saying is not in the OT we should ignore those Scriptures now?? That is about the silliest thing I have heard yet.  And for your information I got most of those Scriptures from t8 HN….. so much for studying them….. How do you think I started to believing in them in the first place….. It was a JW that made us aware of this… and we studied to see if it was the truth…..boy am I glad my Husband and I agree on most issues……And as far as looking at them in another language, weisst du ich kann deutsch sprechen und wir haben auch eine deutsche Bible, ist dass genug, oder muss ich noch eine andere sprache lernen. Ich bin zu alt dafuer…. es faengt jetzt an zu regnen, bei euch auch??  May the LORD be with you, Irene

I tried to be nice. That just doesn't work with the likes of you. You complain that I am too sarcastic and yet you insinuate something by mentioning that your husband said something nasty about me.
Oh dear, I am so concerned about what your husband calls me.

JWs huh? So the genesis of your beliefs comes from a cult? Do you also not believe in the bodily resurrection of Jesus . If you believe that you are not even saved.

There is no point in pointing out that paralel scriptures concerning firstborn are used to define what firstborn means. But you are not interested in knowing truth. You are only interested in what you can twist into so-called proof.
I was not done discussing firstborn and you jump somewhere else.
Why don't you go back to your kingdom hall and leave Christianity to real Christians.

Your German is real cute. too bad scripture was not originally written in German. You
might actually learn something. Your posts are so irrational I wonder if you are sufering dementia or what.
Get over yourself. you ain,t that important.

[NickHassan]

Hi M,
Why do you get so angry with your elders?

[martian]

Quote ( @ –)

Quote (martian @ July 20 2010,09:04) Quote (Arnold @ July 20 2010,07:17) Quote (martian @ July 19 2010,12:32) mikeboll64,July wrote: [quote=martian,July 19 2010,12:01]Is the teaching of Christ as our example my “wish” or is it a scriptural truth? Christ as our example is a scriptural truth.  Christ as less than what he was just so you can feel more empowered is your “wish”. mike I do not read an answer to my second question. Are you saying that Christ gave up all that made him different then humanity so he could be our example? Phil does not each that. Read the web site I offered in response to your questions. Martain!   Jesus is the Son of God and was never all the way like us.  What difference does it make anyway.  You are grasping for straws, just like the website.  i read some of it, it is so much to grasp, and I do agree with some of it.  But at the end what He was saying is that Phil. 2 tells us how we should live.  But the fact is that Jesus was all of that too.  So what difference does it make.  He is still the firstborn of all creation.  He was with His Father before the world was, by Jesus own words, in John 17:5 “And now O Father gl

You have threatened to not post to me anymore. Please Please Please make it so. The less I have to deal with you cultists the better I like it.
GO AWAY YOU BOTHER ME. Take you husbands advice and get lost.

Go ahead you win. Proclaim it to the board. Anyone who would listen to your guff I am not interested in their opinion anyway.

[Proclaimer]

Quote (JustAskin @ July 21 2010,03:13)

TheodoreJ, Does it seem that way to you? Did it seem wrong to you? Was it wrong what was said? Did the post contain truth? Are you making a criticism, positive or negative? Answer these questions and the answer you seek will be within.

I guess you could always ask him by what authority he is asking you this question.

[Arnold]

davidbfun! I am so glad that you agree with me of what Jesus is… Ja, I also like to speak my Hometown language… which I don't get a chance to do to often. Even here at Home we speak English. Georg and I did so when our Kids grew up and I was so scared that they would have a problems with just speaking German. One of my friends at the time did and their child had major problems….. As far as the number system goes, Ed is the one you should talk to, it is Greek to me…. just like another language… had enoguh with two…. Yes, I just can't understand when it comes to the Word in John 1:1 that some will want to make it not what it is talking about. I even gave them Rev. 19:13 and verse 16 and still they will ignore it…. hope you stay,,,Peace Irene

[martian]

Irene
I am no longer going to respond to your irrational posts. Please leave me alone.

[martian]

I am off here for a while. You that have apposed my posts have at it. Declare your victory. It matters very little just like this site matters little. Have you victory in your 4 square inch kingdom.
This site is an entertainment venue only. Lately it has been entertaining like visiting a nut house. you can laugh at the nuts for a while and then it gets old.
Continue please in the irrational ward. At least here you are having little or no impact on real Christianity.
Like 4 year olds you play house and think it really matters.
Many on here are religious and not relational. Dectrinal and not scriptural. Traditional and not functional.
I'm disgusted with it.

[JustAskin]

t8,

Yes, I thought of that but quickly realised it would be childish, Circular, and besides, it was not that important.

There was scope for plenty more but I limited it to just what I posted.

[Author]

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