Preexistence

[martian]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 19 2010,12:16)

Quote (martian @ July 19 2010,11:56) Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 19 2010,11:46) Quote (martian @ July 19 2010,11:02) Yes and I call Satan a liar and the father of liars. As long as you continue to do his work then you can take part of his reward and attributes Oh boy!  Now I'm compared to Satan himself!       Instead of your enormous posts, questions which can only be answered by my opinions, and insults, why not just take a scripture at a time.  Let's start with Phil 2, 5Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus: 6Who, being in the form of God,      did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, 7but made himself nothing,      taking the form of a servant,      being made in human likeness. 8And being found in appearance as a man,      he humbled himself      and became obedient to death—         even death on a cross! 5:  Explains that it is the man Jesus Christ being talked about. 6:  Says this Jesus Christ was once in the form of God. 7:  Says he THEN came in the form of a human. 8:  Says he THEN became obedient to death. How do you explain the pre-existence of Jesus away from these scriptures Martian? mike Nope not necessary to go scripture by scripture with you. As long as your end conclusion/interpretation negates Christ as our example there is no choice but it being wrong. I do not care to hear your opinions anymore. I have posted at least ten times concerning Phil and it has done no good. You would not believe it and you still refuse to answer my questions. Really Martian? You've got plenty of time to make false accusations and post your blustering gibberish, but you won't even explain ONE LITTLE SCRIPTURE away?     I figured as much anyway.   That's why I challenge WJ and KJ to debates……no where for them to run and hide.  Well, at least that's what I thought.  Jack totally quit our first debate because the questions got to tough for him.  But you go ahead and hide behind your insults and your “I've already explained it before” crap. mike

OK Mikey here is my answer to Phil 4

http://www.biblecenter.de/bibliothek/baixeras/philippians2.html

Now answer my questions –
1. Do you believe that part of Christ’s mission on Earth was to be an example to humanity on how to walk with God?
2. Do you believe that Christ had any knowledge or power, (not available to normal mankind) while he walked on this Earth due to his preexistence?

[martian]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 19 2010,12:18)

Quote (martian @ July 19 2010,12:01) Is the teaching of Christ as our example my “wish” or is it a scriptural truth? Christ as our example is a scriptural truth.  Christ as less than what he was just so you can feel more empowered is your “wish”. mike

I do not read an answer to my second question. Are you saying that Christ gave up all that made him different then humanity so he could be our example?
Phil does not each that. Read the web site I offered in response to your questions.

[martian]

Mike if you read my response to Phil you will notice that this writer ties the doctrine directly to the doctrine of the Trinity. It is a core “proof” of the Trinity. The fact you believe in the preexistence only proves that you have not come out of the trinity fully.

[mikeboll64]

Martian,

You said:

Quote

No she is handing out the opinion of an English translator mixed with her opinion that is based on a preconceived idea of preexistence.

Then let's deal with what the Hebrew and Greek say.  Start with Phil 2.  

You said:

Quote

Isaac and David who are both types of christ were called firstborn though neither were first chronologically.

I'm not aware of Isaac being called Abraham's “firstborn” although it may be.  I know he was called Abraham's “only” son both in the OT and the NT.  But just because he inherited the firstborn's rights from Ishmael is not to say the word “firstborn” itself didn't apply to the one born first.  It's just that those rights that belonged to Ishmael were stripped from him – the REAL firstborn.

Genesis 21:10
and she said to Abraham, “Get rid of that slave woman and her son, for that slave woman's son will never share in the inheritance with my son Isaac.“

Genesis 21:12
But God said to him, “Do not be so distressed about the boy and your maidservant. Listen to whatever Sarah tells you, because it is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.

So you can see that while the term “firstborn” means what it says, God has simply moved those rights from one to another.
When is that explained about Jesus?  When are we told he was “given someone else's firstborn rights” or that “he was appointed as the firstborn of all creation”?

Same with David.  He was called the “firstborn of kings of the earth”.  Now Saul was the REAL firstborn in that category, but he was stripped of that title and it was “appointed” to David instead.  So, in both of these cases, the word “firstborn” means what it says, it's just that it is explained that someone besides the REAL one who was born first inherited that one's “firstborn rights”.

Neither case changes what the term “firstborn” literally means.  And even if it did, why would that necessarily be the case with Jesus being called “firstborn”?  Is not the “default” meaning of firstborn “the one born first”?  If it is not explained otherwise, then shouldn't the default meaning apply?

You asked:

Quote

1. Do you believe that part of Christ’s mission on Earth was to be an example to humanity on how to walk with God?

Yes.

John 16:33
“I have told you these things, so that in me you may have peace. In this world you will have trouble. But take heart!I have overcome the world.”

1 Peter 2:21
21 In fact, to this [course] YOU were called, because even Christ suffered for YOU, leaving YOU a model for YOU to follow his steps closely.

You asked:

Quote

2. Do you believe that Christ had any knowledge or power, (not available to normal mankind) while he walked on this Earth due to his preexistence?

Knowledge – YES.

John 6:46
No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father.

John 8:38
I am telling you what I have seen in the Father's presence, and you do what you have heard from your father. “

John 5:20
For the Father loves the Son and shows him all he does.

He had memories of being in the Father's presence.  He had actually SEEN God, something no “man” can do.  The Father shows him “all”.  

Not to mention the authority with which he taught.  Everyone was amazed that he didn't teach like a scribe or Rabbi, but like someone who was speaking with authority…….like he KNEW this stuff first hand, not from the Law and the Prophets.

Power – NO.

John 14:12
I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father

Matthew 17:20
He replied, “Because you have so little faith. I tell you the truth, if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there' and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you.“

John 5:19
Jesus gave them this answer: “I tell you the truth, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does.

John 5:30
By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me.

Good enough Martian.  Now explain away Phil 2 for me.

mike

[mikeboll64]

Quote (martian @ July 19 2010,13:00)

Mike if you read my response to Phil you will notice that this writer ties the doctrine directly to the doctrine of the Trinity. It is a core “proof” of the Trinity.  The fact you believe in the preexistence only proves that you have not come out of the trinity fully.

That's one of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard.  “If you believe Jesus pre-existed, the trinity has it's hooks in you!”  

I believe scripture, period.  I wouldn't change my belief in what scripture says just because it's one thing the trinitarians agree with me on.  

And I'm not interested in reading a website that explains away Phil 2.  That website is not on HN calling me a liar and Satan, so I have nothing against that website.  

I AM interested in how Martian, the one on HN who claims Jesus didn't exist, explains away Phil 2 in HIS OWN WORDS.

mike

[Ed J]

Hi Everyone,

I personally can't understand why this issue is a concern to you?
For the record I believe we all Preexisted. (Jer.1:5 / John 15:27)

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[terraricca]

Quote (Ed J @ July 19 2010,20:29)

Hi Everyone, I personally can't understand why this issue is a concern to you? For the record I believe we all Preexisted. (Jer.1:5 / John 15:27) God bless Ed J (Joshua 22:34) http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

edj

you must be joking;that insanity;Jn 15:26 “When the Counselor comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father, he will testify about me.
Jn 15:27 And you also must testify, for you have been with me from the beginning.
Jn 16:1 “All this I have told you so that you will not go astray

Jos 22:33 They were glad to hear the report and praised God. And they talked no more about going to war against them to devastate the country where the Reubenites and the Gadites lived.
Jos 22:34 And the Reubenites and the Gadites gave the altar this name: A Witness Between Us that the LORD is God

insanity is wen people don't know what is right or wrong they become crazy,

Pierre

[Ed J]

Quote (terraricca @ July 19 2010,13:42)

Quote (Ed J @ July 19 2010,20:29) Hi Everyone, I personally can't understand why this issue is a concern to you? For the record I believe we all Preexisted. (Jer.1:5 / John 15:27) God bless Ed J (Joshua 22:34) http://www.holycitybiblecode.org edj you must be joking;that insanity;Jn 15:26 “When the Counselor comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father, he will testify about me. Jn 15:27 And you also must testify, for you have been with me from the beginning. Jn 16:1 “All this I have told you so that you will not go astray Jos 22:33 They were glad to hear the report and praised God. And they talked no more about going to war against them to devastate the country where the Reubenites and the Gadites lived. Jos 22:34 And the Reubenites and the Gadites gave the altar this name: A Witness Between Us that the LORD is God insanity is wen people don't know what is right or wrong they become crazy, Pierre

Hi Terraricca,

I see nothing has changed with you,
when you disagree all you offer is opinion
with NO Scriptural backing whatsoever, Why?

Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[terraricca]

Quote (Ed J @ July 19 2010,20:50)

Quote (terraricca @ July 19 2010,13:42) Quote (Ed J @ July 19 2010,20:29) Hi Everyone, I personally can't understand why this issue is a concern to you? For the record I believe we all Preexisted. (Jer.1:5 / John 15:27) God bless Ed J (Joshua 22:34) http://www.holycitybiblecode.org edj you must be joking;that insanity;Jn 15:26 “When the Counselor comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father, he will testify about me. Jn 15:27 And you also must testify, for you have been with me from the beginning. Jn 16:1 “All this I have told you so that you will not go astray Jos 22:33 They were glad to hear the report and praised God. And they talked no more about going to war against them to devastate the country where the Reubenites and the Gadites lived. Jos 22:34 And the Reubenites and the Gadites gave the altar this name: A Witness Between Us that the LORD is God insanity is wen people don't know what is right or wrong they become crazy, Pierre Hi Terraricca, I see nothing has changed with you, when you disagree all you offer is opinion with NO Scriptural backing whatsoever, Why? Ed J http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

edj

are you blind?? i show you the scriptures and plus,you now explain how you can come to the conclusion of;For the record I(Edj) believe we all Preexisted.?

let see your scripture backing and understanding

Pierre

[Arnold]

Come on guy's we don't need two debates at the same time going on….let Martian and Mike have their saying first…….. it gets to be to much to handle ………besides this is what ???These personal attack is really not necessary is it??

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (martian @ July 18 2010,20:28)

That's why I challenge WJ and KJ to debates……no where for them to run and hide.  Well, at least that's what I thought.  Jack totally quit our first debate because the questions got to tough for him.

Hi All

There he is beating his chest again, just like the dead horses he beats all the time.

Thats why Jack dropped out, not because this guy has beaten him, but because he got sick of answering the same questions and chasing Mike down his rabbit trails!

Mike you are so full of yourself!

WJ

[martian]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 19 2010,13:18)

Quote (martian @ July 19 2010,13:00) Mike if you read my response to Phil you will notice that this writer ties the doctrine directly to the doctrine of the Trinity. It is a core “proof” of the Trinity.  The fact you believe in the preexistence only proves that you have not come out of the trinity fully. That's one of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard.  “If you believe Jesus pre-existed, the trinity has it's hooks in you!”   I believe scripture, period.  I wouldn't change my belief in what scripture says just because it's one thing the trinitarians agree with me on.   And I'm not interested in reading a website that explains away Phil 2.  That website is not on HN calling me a liar and Satan, so I have nothing against that website.   I AM interested in how Martian, the one on HN who claims Jesus didn't exist, explains away Phil 2 in HIS OWN WORDS. mike

And i am not going to waste my time retyping everything that is in the web site. You ask me to explain what I believed on Phil and I gave you the answer.
See how you are? you ask for proof then ignore it. totally dishonest.
I have read that site many times and i agree with 99% of it. If you do not want to read it then you never wanted my take on Phil. You expected me to roll over and have no explanation and now that I do you run like a little coward. WJ is right about one thing your arrogance is running amuck.

[martian]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 19 2010,13:18)

Quote (martian @ July 19 2010,13:00) Mike if you read my response to Phil you will notice that this writer ties the doctrine directly to the doctrine of the Trinity. It is a core “proof” of the Trinity.  The fact you believe in the preexistence only proves that you have not come out of the trinity fully. That's one of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard.  “If you believe Jesus pre-existed, the trinity has it's hooks in you!”   I believe scripture, period.  I wouldn't change my belief in what scripture says just because it's one thing the trinitarians agree with me on.   And I'm not interested in reading a website that explains away Phil 2.  That website is not on HN calling me a liar and Satan, so I have nothing against that website.   I AM interested in how Martian, the one on HN who claims Jesus didn't exist, explains away Phil 2 in HIS OWN WORDS. mike

If it makes any difference I apologize for any personal attack I have made on you. I admit to getting too emotional about this silly website.
I offer no excuses other then the fact that I have been very ill the past 3 years and my temperment is not what it used to be.

However on the subject of the web site. there is really no difference between what I would write and what is said on this web page. He phrases it better then I would and puts it into a concise package. My ability to type has been compromised from vision problems and if i can find what I want to say already written somewhere I will use it. Is that a sin of some kind?
What is important is that you know what I believe about Phil 4. That is what you ask for is it not? You have often quoted others like Eusebus (sp) Why did you not just put it in your own words?
What is your motive in demanding that I retype this article in my own words? Is this a matter of revenge or payback because I insulted you?
Do you want to know what I believe or do you want to punish me somehow?

[JustAskin]

Hi Martian,

I agree with what the website states, and it states it well.

A point of doing 'both' showing the website and showing your own view is much like doing mathematics using a calculator and using your own head: As my old 'master' always says…It's all very well while the calculator has charged batteries (Your are able to access the Internet) but what if, and when, the batteries die (you can't access the Internet). How do you calculate then (How do you explain your proof from your own mouth)?

Even if you don't quote verbatim, you can paraphrase…as long as you stay wuthin the main theme.

The Website was 'SPOT ON'. Just use the context in your own words.

By the way, I say and say again, 'All the Proof, is in the Scriptures itself. The Scriptures is selfsupporting. There are proof verses for all 'proofrequired' verses…and everyone who knows anything will know them, or else 'learn them' from their own ignorance.

[martian]

Mike,
Here is what I posted several months ago. Perhaps you missed it. I add a few points not on the web page but it has more overall. If you want more detail I suggest you look there.
I have posted several times about Phil. This verse has nothing to do with the Godhead or about the pre-existent Christ. These verses are direct comparison between the first and the second Adam. Between Jesus and Adam. Between the motives and actions of Adam as compared to the motives and actions of Christ.
Allow me to set the stage for understanding the fall.
Gen 1, God creates man in His image and likeness and gives man dominion and authority to rule over the Earth.
At the end of the sixth day God finishes His creating process and says it is “good”. The literal meaning of “good” is functional. God created a functional world in which everything worked properly including man. There was no dysfunction in this world. Adam knew no dysfunction.
Gen 3
1Now the serpent was more crafty than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said to the woman, “Indeed, has God said, 'You shall not eat from any tree of the garden'?”
2The woman said to the serpent, “From the fruit of the trees of the garden we may eat;
3but from the fruit of the tree which is in the middle of the garden, God has said, 'You shall not eat from it or touch it, or you will die.'”
4The serpent said to the woman, “You surely will not die!
5″For God knows that in the day you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”

A literal Mechanical translation of verse 5 is this –

Given that “Elohiym [Powers] is knowing that in the day you eat from him then your eyes will be opened up and you will exist like Elohiym [Powers] knowing function and dysfunction

God knows what function and dysfunction is. Knowing function (good) and dysfunction (evil) makes you like God. You then begin making choices for yourself as to which of them you will choose. Before the fall man depended completely on God for direction and leadership. He did not equate himself equal with God in the decisions for his own life.
The temptation of Satan was for Adam and Eve to equate themselves with God by knowing function AND DYSFUNCTION. This was the fall. Man took God off the thrown and replaced God with themselves. Adam used his free will and position as a son of God to meet his own needs. Adam had dominion over the Earth and everything in it. He used that dominion to serve himself and look out for his own personal interest. The fall resulted in Adam losing that position of dominion.

Now to Phil 4. Notice the context is set from the very beginning. It is not about proof of divinity or pre-existance for Jesus but rather about the attitude Christ had. Here the context is set of comparing the first and second Adam. I am deleting the verse separations since they were not in the originals. I am also replacing the term “form” with the literal meaning of the word “outward appearance”.
3Do nothing from selfishness or empty conceit, but with humility of mind regard one another as more important than yourselves; do not merely look out for your own personal interests, but also for the interests of others. Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, who, although He existed in the external appearance of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself, taking the external appearance of a bond-servant, and being made in likeness of men being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.

Jesus was a son of God. Created in the image (outward appearance) of God. Jesus appeared as a God to the people because He functioned as God to them. The people marveled at Him because He spoke with authority unlike the leaders of Israel. He performed miracles as no other had done.
Because Jesus never sought to meet his own needs, but always trusted God, He never lost His position of dominion over the Earth. He did not use his freedom to supply His own needs or desires. Not even his legitimate needs. Example – In the desert he was starving and had the power to turn the stones into bread. This was a legitimate need yet he would not go beyond God’s will. At other times (when it was God’s will) he did exercise dominion over God’s creation. When He was to enter the temple to preach, Peter pointed out that they had no Temple tax. Jesus told him to catch a fish and in that fishes mouth would be a coin for the tax. Jesus used the authority that God gave him to have dominion. Jesus took on the appearance of a bond servant to the people and did not use His position to exalt himself or meet his own needs.
9For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name,
10so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
12So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling;
13for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.
14Do all things without grumbling or disputing;
15so that you will prove yourselves to be blameless and innocent, children of God above reproach in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation, among whom you appear as lights in the world,
16holding fast the word of life, so that in the day of Christ I will have reason to glory because I did not run in vain nor toil in vain.
17But even if I am being poured out as a drink offering upon the sacrifice and service of your faith, I rejoice and share my joy with you all.
18You too, I urge you, rejoice in the same way and share your joy with me.

Adam equated himself equal with God. He sought to be equal with God. Jesus did not.
Mankind lost their position in God’s creation and Jesus never having given up his human position of dominion could have lorded over man, but instead became a servant to them. Jesus is a king and ruler over God’s creation because He never gave up that position.
This entire section of verse is pointing out the attitude of Christ. It is also a lesson to those of us that will become like Him that we keep humble even when we find ourselves wielding great authority in God. That we continue to serve our brethren rather then build our own kingdom.

[martian]

One more point. Jesus was king over Israel because he completed God's plan to be a perfect man and was elgible for the mantle of the Messiah. He knew that he had all authority on Earth because he never gave it up as Adam did. He said I could ask my father and he would send 12 legions of Angels to save him. Jesus knew that God would do it if he ask but he did not. He did not seek to save himself but gave up his desires to live for his brethren. this is specifically what christ gave up. He gave up his own even ligitimate needs for his brothers. He literally gave his life for his brothers.

[martian]

Does it not make you marvel that a man in such an enviable position to be King of the world would give all that up to be a servant to it instead? Isn't that more impressive then a God or simi -God doing something that is no biggie for them.
It becomes even more spectacular when you consider that the same exact path is open to us to be kings and priests like him. (not as Messiah but as perfected human with dominion over the earth and joint heirs.) Of course to follow him on that path he must be like us.

[martian]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 19 2010,13:12)

Martian, You said: Quote You asked: 1. Do you believe that part of Christ’s mission on Earth was to be an example to humanity on how to walk with God? Yes. You asked: Quote 2. Do you believe that Christ had any knowledge or power, (not available to normal mankind) while he walked on this Earth due to his preexistence? Knowledge – YES.

Mike,
Let me give you a scernio ;
Let’s say you had lived in Heaven for even a hundred years in the presence of God and had great power and authority and then you were born on Earth. Some how in the birthing process or after words you become aware of those experiences and memories of that prior life. Do you think it is reasonable to assume those things would impact your decision making and belief system? You would require much less faith because you had already seen so much in reality. Don’t you think that would make it much easier to trust God and obey his will?
If this supperor knowledge you claim is in Jesus then he had influence that is not available to normal humanity. How are we to follow in the path that he blazed if that path was made on the basis of knowledge and experiences not available to us?
As I have said many many times before. Your doctrine negates Christ as our example. A truth that you have agreed with. Your doctrine produces doubt that we can actually use Christ as our example or follow the path he set for us. The fruit of your doctrine is DOUBT. Your doctrine works to bring doubt about the plan of God.
It is very much like Satan in the garden saying “Hath God said? How can you really follow on the path that Jesus went if he had tools that are not available to you?”
Do you really insist that your doctrine is true when it produces doubt on the mission of Christ as our example? Are you so intrenced in your doctrine that you would sacrifice a major mission of the Messiah to keep it intact? Is that in any way functional? Do you care if your doctrine functions to support Christ's mission or does it not matter to you?

[Arnold]

Quote (martian @ July 19 2010,12:32)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 19 2010,12:18) Quote (martian @ July 19 2010,12:01) Is the teaching of Christ as our example my “wish” or is it a scriptural truth? Christ as our example is a scriptural truth.  Christ as less than what he was just so you can feel more empowered is your “wish”. mike I do not read an answer to my second question. Are you saying that Christ gave up all that made him different then humanity so he could be our example? Phil does not each that. Read the web site I offered in response to your questions.

Martain!   Jesus is the Son of God and was never all the way like us.  What difference does it make anyway.  You are grasping for straws, just like the website.  i read some of it, it is so much to grasp, and I do agree with some of it.  But at the end what He was saying is that Phil. 2 tells us how we should live.  But the fact is that Jesus was all of that too.  So what difference does it make.  He is still the firstborn of all creation.  He was with His Father before the world was, by Jesus own words, in
John 17:5 “And now O Father glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.”
Also John 1:1 He was there with God in the beginning, and He will come again as “The Word of God.
Rev, 19:13 He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God.
verse 16 And on His robe and on His thigh a name written:”
KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.
The connection I am trying to show here is that the Word that became flesh is Jesus in verse 14 of John 1
It all hangs together.  And all the rest of the Scriptures, which I am not writing out.   John 6:38-40 where He s saying that He came down from Heaven to do the will of His Father….
Col. 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of the creation of God…..
Rev.. 3:14 Says that He is the beginning of the creation of God.  I will write this over and over again if you all do not get it…..I could understand if there would only be one Scripture, but all of these and you still don't except it?  Come on stop calling Jesus a liar….He said that He came from Heaven and that He was there before the world was….
May the LORD our Father open your mind and stop  being stubborn about this….. I will always say when I am wrong and I have done so here too, how about you…….Irene

[Arnold]

Quote (martian @ July 20 2010,04:47)

One more point. Jesus was king over Israel because he completed God's plan to be a perfect man and was elgible for the mantle of the Messiah. He knew that he had all authority on Earth because he never gave it up as Adam did. He said I could ask my father and he would send 12 legions of Angels to save him. Jesus knew that God would do it if he ask but he did not. He did not seek to save himself but gave up his desires to live for his brethren. this is specifically what christ gave up. He gave up his own even ligitimate needs for his brothers. He literally gave his life for his brothers.

He is called KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS,because He was The Word of God in verse 16 and 13.  Not just because He was a man…… It is two fold….. He was and is the firstborn of all creation  and the only Son who came forth from the Father.  While we are created out of the dust of the earth…. Is He still the same then we are?  Of course not….He never was….why, because all fall short of the glory of God….Jehovah God had to send someone like Jesus or we would stay in the grave forever….Can you prove that Jesus according to you, has to be completley like us????Scripture please…….. Irene

[Author]

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