Preexistence

[NickHassan]

Hi Irene,
Jesus is indeed with God alive forever in the Spirit he shares with God.
This is our hope too.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 11 2010,12:00)

Ignatius was thought to have been taught by the Apostle John himself and he said: Glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who by Him has given you such wisdom, that He was the Son of God, “the first-born of every creature,” God the Word, the only-begotten Son, and was of the seed of David according to the flesh, by the Virgin Mary; He thought Jesus was the firstborn of all creation AND also was born of Mary in the flesh.  He further emphasizes this belief in a letter to the Ephesians, Jesus the Christ, the only-begotten Son and Word, before time began, but who afterwards became also man, of Mary the virgin. It is clear that Ignatius thought Jesus pre-existed his flesh.  Eusebius was an early church father who was thought to be “the greatest Greek teacher and most learned theologian of his day” wrote this around 325 A.D., We believe in One God, the Father Almighty, the Maker of all things visible and invisible. And in One Lord Jesus Christ, the Word of God, God from God, Light from Light, Life from Life, Son Only-begotten, first-born of every creature, before all the ages, begotten from the Father,

Hi all

The above is mikes continued insistence in misrepresenting the Forefathers words and their intended meaning.

Ignatius also spoke these words…

There is only one physician, who is both flesh and spirit, BORN AND UNBORN, God in man, true life in death, both from Mary and from God, first subject to suffering and then beyond it, Jesus Christ our Lord. 7:2

It is clear by his words that he did not believe that Jesus was “born” from an asexual God by some procreation process.

As far as Eusebius, he signed off on the Nicene Creed in 325 which states…

[But those who say: 'There was a time when he was not;' and 'He was not before he was made;' and 'He was made out of nothing,' or 'He is of another substance' or 'essence,' or 'The Son of God is created,' or 'changeable,' or 'alterable'—they are condemned by the holy catholic and apostolic Church.]

But Mike continues to misrepresent their interpretation of the words “firstborn” and “begotten” for no early Church Father who was a Trinitarian believed Jesus had a beginnig before he came in the flesh!

The Hebrew word “yachiyd” is the equivalent of the Greek word “monogenes”. The Hebrew word for begotten which is “Yalad” is the equivalent of the Greek word “gennaō” which is the same word the writers of Hebrews and Acts used when they quoted Psalms 2:7. (Acts 13:33 – Heb 1:5 -5:5)

These scriptures prove Jesus was begotten after his resurrection!

Paul also uses the same word here…

For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten (gennaō) you through the gospel. 1 Cor 4:15

And here…

I beseech thee for my son Onesimus, whom I have begotten (gennaō) in my bonds: PHM 1:10

These scriptures also prove the use of the word to mean A begetting without procreation!

WJ

[NickHassan]

Hi WJ,
So the Word of God begets sons.
The Spirit of Christ is that Word

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 12 2010,15:34)

Hi WJ, So the Word of God begets sons. The Spirit of Christ is that Word

Yes, many that already existed but not as sons until they were begotten of him!

WJ

[NickHassan]

Hi WJ,
Yes men exist and have access to maybe 100 years of life before the cord breaks and the bucket falls to the bottom of the well[ecc12].
The anointing of the Eternal Spirit of the Eternal God gives them eternal life.
Come to the fountain for men of eternal life [Jn7]

[KangarooJack]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 13 2010,07:21)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 11 2010,12:00) Ignatius was thought to have been taught by the Apostle John himself and he said: Glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who by Him has given you such wisdom, that He was the Son of God, “the first-born of every creature,” God the Word, the only-begotten Son, and was of the seed of David according to the flesh, by the Virgin Mary; He thought Jesus was the firstborn of all creation AND also was born of Mary in the flesh.  He further emphasizes this belief in a letter to the Ephesians, Jesus the Christ, the only-begotten Son and Word, before time began, but who afterwards became also man, of Mary the virgin. It is clear that Ignatius thought Jesus pre-existed his flesh.  Eusebius was an early church father who was thought to be “the greatest Greek teacher and most learned theologian of his day” wrote this around 325 A.D., We believe in One God, the Father Almighty, the Maker of all things visible and invisible. And in One Lord Jesus Christ, the Word of God, God from God, Light from Light, Life from Life, Son Only-begotten, first-born of every creature, before all the ages, begotten from the Father, Hi all The above is mikes continued insistence in misrepresenting the Forefathers words and their intended meaning. Ignatius also spoke these words… There is only one physician, who is both flesh and spirit, BORN AND UNBORN, God in man, true life in death, both from Mary and from God, first subject to suffering and then beyond it, Jesus Christ our Lord. 7:2 It is clear by his words that he did not believe that Jesus was “born” from an asexual God by some procreation process. As far as Eusebius, he signed off on the Nicene Creed in 325 which states… [But those who say: 'There was a time when he was not;' and 'He was not before he was made;' and 'He was made out of nothing,' or 'He is of another substance' or 'essence,' or 'The Son of God is created,' or 'changeable,' or 'alterable'—they are condemned by the holy catholic and apostolic Church.] But Mike continues to misrepresent their interpretation of the words “firstborn” and “begotten” for no early Church Father who was a Trinitarian believed Jesus had a beginnig before he came in the flesh! The Hebrew word “yachiyd” is the equivalent of the Greek word “monogenes”. The Hebrew word for begotten which is “Yalad” is the equivalent of the Greek word “gennaō” which is the same word the writers of Hebrews and Acts used when they quoted Psalms 2:7. (Acts 13:33 – Heb 1:5 -5:5) These scriptures prove Jesus was begotten after his resurrection! Paul also uses the same word here… For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten (gennaō) you through the gospel. 1 Cor 4:15 And here… I beseech thee for my son Onesimus, whom I have begotten (gennaō) in my bonds: PHM 1:10 These scriptures also prove the use of the word to mean A begetting without procreation! WJ

Keith,

Mike knows that trinitarians define “firstborn of every creature” to mean that Jesus is preeminent. He even quoted a JW source in our first debate.

On page 8 Mike said:

Quote

I'll let the Witnesses answer for me:   Trinitarians say that “first-born” here means prime, most excellent, most distinguished; thus Christ would be understood to be, not part of creation, but the most distinguished in relation to those who were created. If that is so, and if the Trinity doctrine is true, why are the Father and the holy spirit not also said to be the firstborn of all creation? But the Bible applies this expression only to the Son. According to the customary meaning of “firstborn,” it indicates that Jesus is the eldest in Jehovah’s family of sons. Before Colossians 1:15, the expression “the firstborn of” occurs upwards of 30 times in the Bible, and in each instance that it is applied to living creatures the same meaning applies—the firstborn is part of the group. “The firstborn of Israel” is one of the sons of Israel; “the firstborn of Pharaoh” is one of Pharaoh’s family; “the firstborn of beast” are themselves animals. What, then, causes some to ascribe a different meaning to it at Colossians 1:15? Is it Bible usage or is it a belief to which they already hold and for which they seek proof?

https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….2;st=70

On March 26 Mike outright accused trinitarians of “doctoring the scriptures” for the last 1800 years and “flat out lying” about Colossians 1:15:

Quote

“My point to all this is that the Trinitarians have been doctoring the Scriptures and changing the meanings of clearly written Scriptures for 1800 years.  Lately, they just keep getting more and more blatant about it.  The NIV is the most prominent translation in America today, at least with the younger, post-King James readers, and they are flat out lying about Rev 3:14 and Col 1:15.”

https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….2;st=70

Mike quoted the JW's who say that trinitarians say that “firstborn of all creation” means that Jesus is “supreme” and that He is “not a part of creation”. Mike even said that trinitarians have been “doctoring” Colossians 1:15 and “flat out lying” about it for the last 1800 years.

But now Mike wants us to believe that they were anti-trinitarians all along about Colossians 1:15.

No one here buys Mike's nonsense!

Jack

[martian]

Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ July 13 2010,08:50)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 13 2010,07:21) Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 11 2010,12:00) Ignatius was thought to have been taught by the Apostle John himself and he said: Glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who by Him has given you such wisdom, that He was the Son of God, “the first-born of every creature,” God the Word, the only-begotten Son, and was of the seed of David according to the flesh, by the Virgin Mary; He thought Jesus was the firstborn of all creation AND also was born of Mary in the flesh.  He further emphasizes this belief in a letter to the Ephesians, Jesus the Christ, the only-begotten Son and Word, before time began, but who afterwards became also man, of Mary the virgin. It is clear that Ignatius thought Jesus pre-existed his flesh.  Eusebius was an early church father who was thought to be “the greatest Greek teacher and most learned theologian of his day” wrote this around 325 A.D., We believe in One God, the Father Almighty, the Maker of all things visible and invisible. And in One Lord Jesus Christ, the Word of God, God from God, Light from Light, Life from Life, Son Only-begotten, first-born of every creature, before all the ages, begotten from the Father, Hi all The above is mikes continued insistence in misrepresenting the Forefathers words and their intended meaning. Ignatius also spoke these words… There is only one physician, who is both flesh and spirit, BORN AND UNBORN, God in man, true life in death, both from Mary and from God, first subject to suffering and then beyond it, Jesus Christ our Lord. 7:2 It is clear by his words that he did not believe that Jesus was “born” from an asexual God by some procreation process. As far as Eusebius, he signed off on the Nicene Creed in 325 which states… [But those who say: 'There was a time when he was not;' and 'He was not before he was made;' and 'He was made out of nothing,' or 'He is of another substance' or 'essence,' or 'The Son of God is created,' or 'changeable,' or 'alterable'—they are condemned by the holy catholic and apostolic Church.] But Mike continues to misrepresent their interpretation of the words “firstborn” and “begotten” for no early Church Father who was a Trinitarian believed Jesus had a beginnig before he came in the flesh! The Hebrew word “yachiyd” is the equivalent of the Greek word “monogenes”. The Hebrew word for begotten which is “Yalad” is the equivalent of the Greek word “gennaō” which is the same word the writers of Hebrews and Acts used when they quoted Psalms 2:7. (Acts 13:33 – Heb 1:5 -5:5) These scriptures prove Jesus was begotten after his resurrection! Paul also uses the same word here… For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten (gennaō) you through the gospel. 1 Cor 4:15 And here… I beseech thee for my son Onesimus, whom I have begotten (gennaō) in my bonds: PHM 1:10 These scriptures also prove the use of the word to mean A begetting without procreation! WJ Keith, Mike knows that trinitarians define “firstborn of every creature” to mean that Jesus is preeminent. He even quoted a JW source in our first debate. On page 8 Mike said: Quote I'll let the Witnesses answer for me:   Trinitarians say that “first-born” here means prime, most excellent, most distinguished; thus Christ would be understood to be, not part of creation, but the most distinguished in relation to those who were created. If that is so, and if the Trinity doctrine is true, why are the Father and the holy spirit not also said to be the firstborn of all creation? But the Bible applies this expression only to the Son. According to the customary meaning of “firstborn,” it indicates that Jesus is the eldest in Jehovah’s family of sons. Before Colossians 1:15, the expression “the firstborn of” occurs upwards of 30 times in the Bible, and in each instance that it is applied to living creatures the same meaning applies—the firstborn is part of the group. “The firstborn of Israel” is one of the sons of Israel; “the firstborn of Pharaoh” is one of Pharaoh’s family; “the firstborn of beast” are themselves animals. What, then, causes some to ascribe a different meaning to it at Colossians 1:15? Is it Bible usage or is it a belief to which they already hold and for which they seek proof? https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….2;st=70 On March 26 Mike outright accused trinitarians of “doctoring the scriptures” for the last 1800 years and “flat out lying” about Colossians 1:15: Quote “My point to all this is that the Trinitarians have been doctoring the Scriptures and changing the meanings of clearly written Scriptures for 1800 years.  Lately, they just keep getting more and more blatant about it.  The NIV is the most prominent translation in America today, at least with the younger, post-King James readers, and they are flat out lying about Rev 3:14 and Col 1:15.” https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….2;st=70 Mike quoted the JW's who say that trinitarians say that “firstborn of all creation” means that Jesus is “supreme” and that He is “not a part of creation”. Mike even said that trinitarians have been “doctoring” Colossians 1:15 and “flat out lying” about it for the last 1800 years. But now Mike wants us to believe that they were anti-trinitarians all along about Colossians 1:15. No one here buys Mike's nonsense! Jack

I hate to say it but I agree with WJ and Roo in some of what they say. Jesus did not preexist his birth to mary.

[terraricca]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 13 2010,07:21)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 11 2010,12:00) Ignatius was thought to have been taught by the Apostle John himself and he said: Glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who by Him has given you such wisdom, that He was the Son of God, “the first-born of every creature,” God the Word, the only-begotten Son, and was of the seed of David according to the flesh, by the Virgin Mary; He thought Jesus was the firstborn of all creation AND also was born of Mary in the flesh.  He further emphasizes this belief in a letter to the Ephesians, Jesus the Christ, the only-begotten Son and Word, before time began, but who afterwards became also man, of Mary the virgin. It is clear that Ignatius thought Jesus pre-existed his flesh.  Eusebius was an early church father who was thought to be “the greatest Greek teacher and most learned theologian of his day” wrote this around 325 A.D., We believe in One God, the Father Almighty, the Maker of all things visible and invisible. And in One Lord Jesus Christ, the Word of God, God from God, Light from Light, Life from Life, Son Only-begotten, first-born of every creature, before all the ages, begotten from the Father, Hi all The above is mikes continued insistence in misrepresenting the Forefathers words and their intended meaning. Ignatius also spoke these words… There is only one physician, who is both flesh and spirit, BORN AND UNBORN, God in man, true life in death, both from Mary and from God, first subject to suffering and then beyond it, Jesus Christ our Lord. 7:2 It is clear by his words that he did not believe that Jesus was “born” from an asexual God by some procreation process. As far as Eusebius, he signed off on the Nicene Creed in 325 which states… [But those who say: 'There was a time when he was not;' and 'He was not before he was made;' and 'He was made out of nothing,' or 'He is of another substance' or 'essence,' or 'The Son of God is created,' or 'changeable,' or 'alterable'—they are condemned by the holy catholic and apostolic Church.] But Mike continues to misrepresent their interpretation of the words “firstborn” and “begotten” for no early Church Father who was a Trinitarian believed Jesus had a beginnig before he came in the flesh! The Hebrew word “yachiyd” is the equivalent of the Greek word “monogenes”. The Hebrew word for begotten which is “Yalad” is the equivalent of the Greek word “gennaō” which is the same word the writers of Hebrews and Acts used when they quoted Psalms 2:7. (Acts 13:33 – Heb 1:5 -5:5) These scriptures prove Jesus was begotten after his resurrection! Paul also uses the same word here… For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten (gennaō) you through the gospel. 1 Cor 4:15 And here… I beseech thee for my son Onesimus, whom I have begotten (gennaō) in my bonds: PHM 1:10 These scriptures also prove the use of the word to mean A begetting without procreation! WJ

JW

why is it you tell others that they twist the scriptures and do not see what you do??

this is your written words;;These scriptures prove Jesus was begotten after his resurrection!

how you explain then that those words were spoken on his baptism in the Jordan river by John the baptist;Mt 3:17 And a voice from heaven said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.”

in these words God the father begotten his son Jesus Christ;

is there any other son what God as approved that you know of???

Pierre

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (terraricca @ July 12 2010,17:04)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 13 2010,07:21) Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 11 2010,12:00) Ignatius was thought to have been taught by the Apostle John himself and he said: Glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who by Him has given you such wisdom, that He was the Son of God, “the first-born of every creature,” God the Word, the only-begotten Son, and was of the seed of David according to the flesh, by the Virgin Mary; He thought Jesus was the firstborn of all creation AND also was born of Mary in the flesh.  He further emphasizes this belief in a letter to the Ephesians, Jesus the Christ, the only-begotten Son and Word, before time began, but who afterwards became also man, of Mary the virgin. It is clear that Ignatius thought Jesus pre-existed his flesh.  Eusebius was an early church father who was thought to be “the greatest Greek teacher and most learned theologian of his day” wrote this around 325 A.D., We believe in One God, the Father Almighty, the Maker of all things visible and invisible. And in One Lord Jesus Christ, the Word of God, God from God, Light from Light, Life from Life, Son Only-begotten, first-born of every creature, before all the ages, begotten from the Father, Hi all The above is mikes continued insistence in misrepresenting the Forefathers words and their intended meaning. Ignatius also spoke these words… There is only one physician, who is both flesh and spirit, BORN AND UNBORN, God in man, true life in death, both from Mary and from God, first subject to suffering and then beyond it, Jesus Christ our Lord. 7:2 It is clear by his words that he did not believe that Jesus was “born” from an asexual God by some procreation process. As far as Eusebius, he signed off on the Nicene Creed in 325 which states… [But those who say: 'There was a time when he was not;' and 'He was not before he was made;' and 'He was made out of nothing,' or 'He is of another substance' or 'essence,' or 'The Son of God is created,' or 'changeable,' or 'alterable'—they are condemned by the holy catholic and apostolic Church.] But Mike continues to misrepresent their interpretation of the words “firstborn” and “begotten” for no early Church Father who was a Trinitarian believed Jesus had a beginnig before he came in the flesh! The Hebrew word “yachiyd” is the equivalent of the Greek word “monogenes”. The Hebrew word for begotten which is “Yalad” is the equivalent of the Greek word “gennaō” which is the same word the writers of Hebrews and Acts used when they quoted Psalms 2:7. (Acts 13:33 – Heb 1:5 -5:5) These scriptures prove Jesus was begotten after his resurrection! Paul also uses the same word here… For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten (gennaō) you through the gospel. 1 Cor 4:15 And here… I beseech thee for my son Onesimus, whom I have begotten (gennaō) in my bonds: PHM 1:10 These scriptures also prove the use of the word to mean A begetting without procreation! WJ JW why is it you tell others that they twist the scriptures and do not see what you do?? this is your written words;;These scriptures prove Jesus was begotten after his resurrection! how you explain then that those words were spoken on his baptism in the Jordan river by John the baptist;Mt 3:17 And a voice from heaven said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.” in these words God the father begotten his son Jesus Christ; is there any other son what God as approved that you know of??? Pierre

T

If you would read with comprehension you might understand what I am saying.

I am not saying the word “begotten” (gennaō) does not apply to Jesus before the ressurection, but I am saying the word “begotten (gennaō) is not given to Jesus before he came in the flesh and that the Forefathers disagree with mikes interpretation of the text!

WJ

[NickHassan]

Hi,
Jesus is not spoken of till his conception in Mary has occurred.[Mt1]

[942767]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 10 2010,16:49)

Quote (942767 @ July 10 2010,06:59) Hi Mike: The scripture states that Jesus is a man.  My guess you are saying that he is a spirit being because the Word of God states that he was made a life-giving spirit.  Where is the scripture that states that Jesus is a spirit being. Hi Marty, Joh 20:26 Eight days later the disciples were again together in the house, and Thomas was with them. Although the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you!” How did Jesus get in the room?  How about this one, Luke 24:15 15As they talked and discussed these things with each other, Jesus himself came up and walked along with them; 16but they were kept from recognizing him. 24:30-31 30When he was at the table with them, he took bread, gave thanks, broke it and began to give it to them. 31Then their eyes were opened and they recognized him, and he disappeared from their sight. How can a flesh and blood man walk through walls, transform his appearance and disappear into thin air?  Paul explains here, 1 Cor 15:25 35But someone may ask, “How are the dead raised? With what kind of body will they come?” 15:42-44 42So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; 43it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.  If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. Marty, read all of 1 Cor 15 and it is all explained how Jesus now has a spiritual body.  Now if you add that to the facts we know about the Son of Man coming FROM heaven, ascending to where he was BEFORE, and being restored to his previous glory then it is not hard to surmise that Jesus was spirit, then flesh, then spirit again. mike

Hi Mike:

Jesus appeared to his disciples after his resurrection.

Quote

Luke 24:35-41 (King James Version) 35And they told what things were done in the way, and how he was known of them in breaking of bread. 36And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you. 37But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit. 38And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts? 39Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see;FOR A SPIRIT HATH NOT FLESH AND BONE, as ye see me have. 40And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet.

Also, Mike Jesus said that he was going to ascend where he was before, but he did not say anything about being restored to his former glory. You are adding the word “restored” to what he said.

Love in Christ,
Marty

[mikeboll64]

Quote (martian @ July 12 2010,07:59)

I will not deal with things you pull out of context. The statement you quote is explained further on. You know what forget the post. I am not interested in debating philosophy with the Greeks. I would actually like to walk with God using Christ as my example.  You have heard of that have you not? Just answer a few questions. 1.  How does your doctrine help me become more like Christ? 2. How does it make Christ more of a perfect example for me? 3. What happened to the memories and experences of the Christ in the prior life? 4. How did his preexistence effect his ability to walk with God on Earth?

Hi Martian,  

1.  “This means eternal life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you HAVE SENT”.  You must take in accurate knowledge of both, Martian.  The Son of Man came FROM heaven – that knowledge is in the scriptures, why won't you take it in?

Let's say I didn't believe the transfiguration on the mountain was real, but you did.  Your question #1 is like me asking you, “How does me believing the transfiguration really happened help me to become more like Christ?”  It is a moot point.    

2.  That he was willing to leave the “comforts” he had and give up everything, including his life, to the glory of his God.  Remember the rich man who walked away from Jesus sad because he had much wealth?  Jesus didn't just suggest others do it, he led by example.

3.  I imagine the same thing that happens to ours when we die.  God puts them in a “data storage bank” or something to be returned to us when we are resurrected, IMO.

4.  Sorry, but this question is also moot.  I couldn't say how things would have been different had he not already existed before he came in the flesh, because that's not how it happened.

Btw, I showed you my 1st and 3rd century proof of how “firstborn of all creation” and “only begotten” was understood – not just by any old body off the street – but by men who were renowned for their understanding of the scriptures.   I'm still waiting on your proof that those Greek terms mean something different than what they say.

mike

[mikeboll64]

Quote (942767 @ July 12 2010,13:20)

Hi Mike: With this statement, I do agree.  Jesus is still a man who now has a spiritual body, and that means that he is alive forever more.  Death has no dominion over him. Love in Christ, Marty

Hi Marty,

I'm glad two people actually agree about something on HN!  

It is not the spirituality that makes Jesus immortal.  It was God's will that he now be eternal.  To say God couldn't end the life of a being just because that being was spirit is to limit what God can and can't do, IMO.  Now if God created angels and other spirit beings and told them they were immortal, then God cannot lie and end their life.  This MIGHT be the case with Satan, for his punishment will be everlasting torment, not death.  I don't know that the Bible actually says spirits are immortal, does it? I think a lot of people assume that…..maybe I missed something in scripture?

peace and love,
mike

mike

[mikeboll64]

Quote (martian @ July 13 2010,01:44)

Come on this is your chance before I write your doctrine off as another cultish philosophy.

I wasn't ignoring you. I spent 7 hours Sunday working on my debate with KJ. (Lot's of research)

I'm just now seeing your posts on Monday night.

mike

[Arnold]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 13 2010,11:14)

Quote (942767 @ July 12 2010,13:20) Hi Mike: With this statement, I do agree.  Jesus is still a man who now has a spiritual body, and that means that he is alive forever more.  Death has no dominion over him. Love in Christ, Marty Hi Marty, I'm glad two people actually agree about something on HN!   It is not the spirituality that makes Jesus immortal.  It was God's will that he now be eternal.  To say God couldn't end the life of a being just because that being was spirit is to limit what God can and can't do, IMO.  Now if God created angels and other spirit beings and told them they were immortal, then God cannot lie and end their life.  This MIGHT be the case with Satan, for his punishment will be everlasting torment, not death.  I don't know that the Bible actually says spirits are immortal, does it?  I think a lot of people assume that…..maybe I missed something in scripture? peace and love, mike mike

Mike! Since God has created all and also Satan who was Lucifer a beautiful Angels until iniquity was found in Him, whatever God created He also can destroy.  The Lake of Fire is the second death, and all wicked man also Satan and His Demon will be thrown into it.  It will burn up and that is the second death.  Destroying that is what I believe all those that will be in the Lake of Fire.  It says that Death is the last enemy that will be destroyed.  That is Satan since He is that cause all…….. Irene

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 13 2010,01:56)

Mike…………martian is right on this one brother. the doctrine of Preexistence of Jesus is every bit as bad as the doctrine of the Trinity both are connected with each other, both separate our likeness of Jesus both are false teachings. IMO peace and love to you and yours………………………gene

Hi Gene,

I disagree and haven't seen any answers to Irene's very simple points that clearly say Jesus was the Word, who we know all things came into being thorugh, and who we know is a real live person AGAIN in heaven.

Why would Jesus say “in your presence” twice?

Father glorify me IN YOUR PRESENCE with the glory I had IN YOUR PRESENCE before the creation of the world.

peace and love,
mike

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 13 2010,06:48)

Hi Irene, Jesus is indeed with God alive forever in the Spirit he shares with God. This is our hope too.

Hi Nick,

My hope is to be a separate being who shares in God's spirit and worships God along with my King Jesus Christ. Apparently your hope is to become a part of God by being absorbed into His spirit.

Isn't that what you think happened to Jesus?

mike

[NickHassan]

Hi MB,
The Word was with God.
The word was not made flesh till the Jordan

[NickHassan]

Hi MB,
The hope of Jesus was expressed by him in Jn 17.20-23

[mikeboll64]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 13 2010,07:21)

Hi all The above is mikes continued insistence in misrepresenting the Forefathers words and their intended meaning.

Tsk, tsk WJ,

Always running from post to post with your drivel, and always stalling and crying in our debate threads (that's right, 2 of them) when I try to force you to prove your drivel.

mike

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