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Quote (Arnold @ July 10 2010,00:14) To whom it may concern!!!! When Scriptures say creatures, and we know who is in Heaven with Jehovah God we know that they are Spirit beings, because we also know that flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God…. When we have two Scriptures that says that Jesus was the firstborn of all creation and that in Him all things consist we should acknowledge it. Col. 1:15-18 Verse 18 tells us that He was the firstborn of all creation and the firstborn of the death. So in all things He may have preeminence….meaning first in all. When we have two Scriptures that tell us that The Word of God is Jesus whe should believe it….. And that Word became flesh we do know that He also is:'KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS. Rev. 19:16. In verse 13 Scriptures tell us that The Word had a robe on dipped in blood. Who else would that be, but Jesus.
And most of all when by Jesus own words He says that He was in Heaven and has come down, emptied Himself and became like Servant….. Phil. 2:5
John explains it so nicely for us that Jesus was before Abraham and He was before THE WORLD WAS IN
John 17:5 then John tells us in John 6:39-40 that He came from Heaven to do the will of Him who send Him. These Scriptures all prove that Jesus was a Spirit Being before the world was, created through Jesus, by the power of His Father….. Gene you really need to read up on this. Heaven Net does have a good article which I already posted here and gets ignored….Peace be with all of you, Irene
there you go again posting the same scriptures over and over again. Firstborn has been covered. Phil 2 has been covered.
You accuse others of ignoring posts. Perhaps you should look in the mirror.Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 09 2010,16:31) Quote (942767 @ July 09 2010,14:20) Hi Mike: Angels are creatures but they are not born of God.
Hi Marty,I don't even know what that means exactly, but at least you acknowledge that spirit beings are creatures. Jesus is a spirit being, why can't he be the firstborn of every creature like the Bible says?
mike
Hi Mike:The scripture states that Jesus is a man. My guess you are saying that he is a spirit being because the Word of God states that he was made a life-giving spirit. Where is the scripture that states that Jesus is a spirit being. After his resurrection and before he ascended into heaven in speaking to the Apostle Thomas, he showed that he had the same body of flesh and bone minus the blood that he shed. He is a man with a glorified body, and so, why are you saying that he is a spirit being?
It is that spirit that gives life to his soul as well as to ours when we are born again and learn to apply the Word of God that he obeyed to our daily lives. The spirit dwells within the body.
Let me quote this again. Angels are creatures, but they are not begotten of God. Jesus is the “firstbegotten” of God.
Quote Hebrew 2:4(Jesus)Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they. 5For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
6And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
7And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire
JOHN 3:16 STATES: “FOR GOD SO LOVED THE WORLD THAT HE GAVE HIS ONLY BEGOTTEN SON…”
WHEN WAS JESUS BEGOTTEN OF GOD, MIKE? WAS IT NOT WHEN HE WAS CONCEIVED OF THE HOLY GHOST IN THE WOMB OF THE VIRGIN MARY?
I DO NOT SEE ANY OTHER SCRIPTURE THAT SHOWS THAT HE WAS BEGOTTEN ANYWHERE ELSE BEFORE BEING CONCEIVED IN THE WOMB OF THE VIRGIN MARY.
You ask, “why can he not be the firstborn of every creature” just like the scriptures state? Well, he is, but your interpretation is not correct. He is the “firstbegotten of God” of any man. This refers to mankind, and not to any other creature. Angels are not begotten of God.
Love in Christ,
MartyMarty ! We do know that Jesus came in the flesh to die for us, but that is not what it is being discussed here,is it?? You gave us John 3:16, but then you don't go on where it says this in verse 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world. Where did He send him from?
He came down from Heaven….John 6 what I mean by given up other Scriptures. Here little and there a little will give you the truth…Can you explain all of this Scriptures, that Mike and I have given you?? About the Angels you are right, while they were created by Jesus through the power of God, Jesus came forth from God the Father that is why He is the literal Son of God while we and all Angels are created. and we are adopted…… God is a Creator is He not??? If you are game let' us debate this head on with just you. I think Mike would also like that….One Point at the time. One Scripture at the time. Are you for it? IreneQuote (Arnold @ July 10 2010,07:49) Marty ! We do know that Jesus came in the flesh to die for us, but that is not what it is being discussed here,is it?? You gave us John 3:16, but then you don't go on where it says this in verse 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world. Where did He send him from? He came down from Heaven….John 6 what I mean by given up other Scriptures. Here little and there a little will give you the truth…Can you explain all of this Scriptures, that Mike and I have given you?? About the Angels you are right, while they were created by Jesus through the power of God, Jesus came forth from God the Father that is why He is the literal Son of God while we and all Angels are created. and we are adopted…… God is a Creator is He not??? If you are game let' us debate this head on with just you. I think Mike would also like that….One Point at the time. One Scripture at the time. Are you for it? Irene
Hi Mrs:God sent Jesus into the world when he was baptized at the Jordan and was anointed for his ministry here on earth.
He came from heaven in two ways. First of all, he is a living person who was conceived of the Holy Ghost, and secondly, the Word of God that he obeyed came from heaven. It was God speaking to humanity through him. It was the Father doing the works through him as he said in John 14.
It was God who anointed him and sent him. God's throne is in heaven.
Yes, God is the creator. He created every thing with Jesus in mind, and no, God did not create the angels by Jesus through the power of God. (Where are you getting that from?)
I don't like the term “debate”, but it gives the impression that one is trying to win some contest or something. I am teaching what I believe to be the truth, and I ask God each day that if I am teaching anything that is not his Word or doing anything that is not his will that he correct me. And if I am wrong, I welcome that correction.
Having said that, there is no reason that I can see for Jesus to have preexisted his birth into this world, and I do not believe that the scriptures teach that he did. They do teach that Jesus was foreordained before he created anything, and all of God's plan for this world is fulfilled in him and through him.
I have already discussed the scriptures with you, and I will give you my understanding if you ask about any scripture, but to call it a debate, no, I don't think so. I will pray that God will reveal the truth to you if you are wrong or to me if I am wrong, because I certainly do not want to teach anything but the truth.
Love in Christ,
MartyThe Greek from which we get apostle derives from the verb “to send” and means “one sent” or “envoy.”
Irene claims that Jesus was sent from heaven and therefore preexisted. To be “sent” one must have a starting place and a destination.
Jesus told the Twelve, “As my Father hath sent me, even so send I you” (John 20:21)
Does this mean that the twelve were sent from heaven?Quote (martian @ July 10 2010,10:06) The Greek from which we get apostle derives from the verb “to send” and means “one sent” or “envoy.”
Irene claims that Jesus was sent from heaven and therefore preexisted. To be “sent” one must have a starting place and a destination.
Jesus told the Twelve, “As my Father hath sent me, even so send I you” (John 20:21)
Does this mean that the twelve were sent from heaven?
Hi Martian:Do his orders and ours come from headquarters? What do you say, Irene?
Quote (942767 @ July 10 2010,10:16) Quote (martian @ July 10 2010,10:06) The Greek from which we get apostle derives from the verb “to send” and means “one sent” or “envoy.”
Irene claims that Jesus was sent from heaven and therefore preexisted. To be “sent” one must have a starting place and a destination.
Jesus told the Twelve, “As my Father hath sent me, even so send I you” (John 20:21)
Does this mean that the twelve were sent from heaven?
Hi Martian:Do his orders and ours come from headquarters? What do you say, Irene?
Yup – you are right!!!Hi 94,
So you agree his anointing for ministry was at the Jordan.
Thence the anointing was more important than the vessel.Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 10 2010,11:28) Hi 94,
So you agree his anointing for ministry was at the Jordan.
Thence the anointing was more important than the vessel.
Nick:Without God neither he nor we can do anything. Who wants a ministry without his anointing?
Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 10 2010,11:28) Hi 94,
So you agree his anointing for ministry was at the Jordan.
Thence the anointing was more important than the vessel.
Without the vessel what is there to anoint. The reason for an anointing is the vessel.Quote (942767 @ July 10 2010,09:08) Quote (Arnold @ July 10 2010,07:49) Marty ! We do know that Jesus came in the flesh to die for us, but that is not what it is being discussed here,is it?? You gave us John 3:16, but then you don't go on where it says this in verse 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world. Where did He send him from? He came down from Heaven….John 6 what I mean by given up other Scriptures. Here little and there a little will give you the truth…Can you explain all of this Scriptures, that Mike and I have given you?? About the Angels you are right, while they were created by Jesus through the power of God, Jesus came forth from God the Father that is why He is the literal Son of God while we and all Angels are created. and we are adopted…… God is a Creator is He not??? If you are game let' us debate this head on with just you. I think Mike would also like that….One Point at the time. One Scripture at the time. Are you for it? Irene
Hi Mrs:God sent Jesus into the world when he was baptized at the Jordan and was anointed for his ministry here on earth.
He came from heaven in two ways. First of all, he is a living person who was conceived of the Holy Ghost, and secondly, the Word of God that he obeyed came from heaven. It was God speaking to humanity through him. It was the Father doing the works through him as he said in John 14.
It was God who anointed him and sent him. God's throne is in heaven.
Yes, God is the creator. He created every thing with Jesus in mind, and no, God did not create the angels by Jesus through the power of God. (Where are you getting that from?)
I don't like the term “debate”, but it gives the impression that one is trying to win some contest or something. I am teaching what I believe to be the truth, and I ask God each day that if I am teaching anything that is not his Word or doing anything that is not his will that he correct me. And if I am wrong, I welcome that correction.
Having said that, there is no reason that I can see for Jesus to have preexisted his birth into this world, and I do not believe that the scriptures teach that he did. They do teach that Jesus was foreordained before he created anything, and all of God's plan for this world is fulfilled in him and through him.
I have already discussed the scriptures with you, and I will give you my understanding if you ask about any scripture, but to call it a debate, no, I don't think so. I will pray that God will reveal the truth to you if you are wrong or to me if I am wrong, because I certainly do not want to teach anything but the truth.
Love in Christ,
Marty
Marty! I will just take the first subject you disagree with me with. You say that Jesius came first into the world, and was conceived of the Holy Spirit. Yes, that is true when He became a man. To do so He said that He emptied Himself in Phil. 2:5
You don't believe that John 1:1 The Word of God is Jesus? wHY??? Then who was it that became flesh in verse 14 The Word became flesh?? And who was it that had on a robe dippeD with blood and His name is:” The Word of God.”
Rev. 19:13 Who is it? Please explain to me who that is.
Also who is it in Rev, 19:16 Irene
P>S. I will retiurn tomorrow night I do have a life other then H.N……. IreneQuote (Nick Hassan @ July 10 2010,14:42) Hi M,
True.
But the words he said and the miraculous works he did were those of his God in him.
Nick! Question to you… Do you believe that it was Jesus in John 1:1? If not who was it??? IreneQuote (Gene Balthrop @ July 09 2010,16:44) Mike……….Angels are not spirit Creatures, there is not such thing as a spirit creature,
Hi Gene,Then explain the 3 scriptures I posted for Marty, please.
mike
Hi Irene,
It was the Spirit of Christ.
Jesus was not alive till conceived of Mary.
But the Spirit of Christ enlightened the prophets and was the rock that was with the Israelites.[1Cor10, 1 peter1]Quote (942767 @ July 10 2010,06:59) Hi Mike: The scripture states that Jesus is a man. My guess you are saying that he is a spirit being because the Word of God states that he was made a life-giving spirit. Where is the scripture that states that Jesus is a spirit being.
Hi Marty,Joh 20:26
Eight days later the disciples were again together in the house, and Thomas was with them. Although the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you!”How did Jesus get in the room? How about this one,
Luke 24:15
15As they talked and discussed these things with each other, Jesus himself came up and walked along with them; 16but they were kept from recognizing him.24:30-31
30When he was at the table with them, he took bread, gave thanks, broke it and began to give it to them. 31Then their eyes were opened and they recognized him, and he disappeared from their sight.How can a flesh and blood man walk through walls, transform his appearance and disappear into thin air? Paul explains here,
1 Cor 15:25
35But someone may ask, “How are the dead raised? With what kind of body will they come?”15:42-44
42So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; 43it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.Marty, read all of 1 Cor 15 and it is all explained how Jesus now has a spiritual body. Now if you add that to the facts we know about the Son of Man coming FROM heaven, ascending to where he was BEFORE, and being restored to his previous glory then it is not hard to surmise that Jesus was spirit, then flesh, then spirit again.
mike
Quote (Arnold @ July 10 2010,07:49) If you are game let' us debate this head on with just you. I think Mike would also like that….One Point at the time. One Scripture at the time. Are you for it? Irene
Hi Irene and Marty,Yes, I would love to watch you debate this point one scripture or point at a time. I think HN is full of people just posting their thoughts and interpretations over and over, but it seems no one wants to break it down to the “brass tacks” when someone else challenges those thoughts.
For example, someone may state, “Jesus only pre-existed as a foreordained thought in God's mind.” But does that mean that Jesus returned to his former glory as a “thought in God's mind”?
John 17:5 says,
So now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had in your presence before the world existed.Can a thought of God be “in His presence”? NetNotes says,
1 tn Or “in your presence”; Grk “with yourself.” The use of παρά (para) twice in this verse looks back to the assertion in John 1:1 that the Word (the Λόγος [Logos], who became Jesus of Nazareth in 1:14) was with God (πρὸς τὸν θεόν, pro” ton qeon). Whatever else may be said, the statement in 17:5 strongly asserts the preexistence of Jesus Christ.
Anyway yeah, I would like to see this broken down by both of you – for what that's worth.
peace and love,
mikeQuote (942767 @ July 10 2010,09:08) I have already discussed the scriptures with you, and I will give you my understanding if you ask about any scripture, but to call it a debate, no, I don't think so. I will pray that God will reveal the truth to you if you are wrong or to me if I am wrong, because I certainly do not want to teach anything but the truth.
Hi Marty,Don't think of it as a debate, but a discussion in a debate thread where no one can interupt you two.
Your last sentence is an admirable notion, but will you hold to it WHEN IRENE SHOWS YOU THE ERROR OF YOUR WAYS?
peace and love to you,
mike
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