Preexistence

[JustAskin]

Hi Terra,

Mike is right here.

When Jesus said 'Noone has seen God, nor heard His voice', he was refering to 'humankind'. Jesus then went on to confirm that point in saying, 'He that is from Heaven, he has seen the Father[and listened to His voice]'

So, yes, those in Heaven 'see God', those of a pure Spirit see the Face of God.

Those in sin cannot see the unsinful face of God.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ July 01 2010,19:00)

The scripture UNAMBIGUOUSLY says that those who had weakness were appointed as high priests by the law. So if Christ had weakness He would also have been appointed by the law. He was not appointed by the law but by the oath BECAUSE He Himself was the SURETY.

Hi Jack

It is amazing how martians own theorys contradict him.

Martian insist that the Word that was with God in John 1:1 is the word (thought or plan) of God made flesh in Jesus.

If Martians theory is true then it would not be possible for Gods word (thought or plan) to fail!  

Another one of those straw mans blown to smithereens!

WJ

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (martian @ July 01 2010,20:12)

Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ July 02 2010,11:36) Quote (martian @ July 02 2010,11:25) Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ July 02 2010,11:17) Quote (martian @ July 02 2010,11:03) Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ July 02 2010,11:00) Quote (martian @ July 02 2010,09:43) Quote (942767 @ July 02 2010,09:10) Hi KJ: You say: Quote If the potential existed for Christ to sin, then the potential existed for the oath to fail and God can lie: Of course God cannot lie and He has seen everything from the beginning to the end, even your misunderstanding of the scriptures. Of course the potential was there for Jesus to fail.   Quote Hebrews  5:7  who, in the days of His flesh, when He had offered up prayers and supplications, with vehement cries and tears to Him who was able to save Him from death, and was heard because of His godly fear, 8 though He was a Son, yet He learned obedience by the things which He suffered. 9 And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him, 10 called by God as High Priest  “according to the order of Melchizedek,” 11 of whom we have much to say, and hard to explain, since you have become dull of hearing. Love in Christ, Marty Exactly right. If Christ had failed then God would have known by his foreknowledge and would have written scripture differently. If Christ did not have the potential to fail then all the tests would have meant nothing. He could never be tempted to do anything that was impossible for him to do. AND his test and overcoming would be of no use to us as an example. Martian, You're a trip man! God would have written scripture differently? Again you make assertions that cannot be verified. There is no way you can prove that His tests would have meant nothing if He could not have failed. If a theory cannot be verified by human experience then we do not have to accept it. The scripture UNAMBIGUOUSLY says that those who had weakness were appointed as high priests by the law. So if Christ had weakness He would also have been appointed by the law. He was not appointed by the law but by the oath BECAUSE He Himself was the SURETY. Quote 20 And inasmuch as He was not made priest without an oath 21 (for they have become priests without an oath, but He with an oath by Him who said to Him:      “ The LORD has sworn      And will not relent,      ‘ You are a priest forever      According to the order of Melchizedek’”),   22 by so much more Jesus has become a SURETY of a better covenant. It's clear dude! God swore by an oath and appointed the man who would guarantee its fulfillment. Again, the scripture UNAMBIGUOUSLY declares that men with weakness were appointed as high priests by the law. So if Christ had weakness, then He too would have been appointed by the law. He was not appointed by the law was He? God could not swear by an oath and then appoint someone who had the ability to botch it up. Get real! the Roo You scriptural proof is outside the general context of the word. that general context including Christ as our example. If he is not tested/tempted like all other men then he is not our example. Martian, We have already discussed the example aspect of it. Your theories are unverifiable. Again, Paul said that Jesus subsisted in the form of God, that is, He was God and that He made Himself nothing. This is our example! Paul did not make His temptations our example. The scripture is UNAMBIGUOUS that men who had weakness were appointed as high priests by the law. JESUS WAS NOT APPOINTED AS HIGH PRIEST BY THE LAW! ERGO…. the Roo so you do not believe hat Christ is our example? You are out of the realms of Christianity. I am done with your nonsense. Keep the forum and your victory. A small win it truly is. Paul said, “Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus…and He humbled Himself.” So it was His HUMILITY that was our example and not His temptations. He was not appointed as high priest by the law as men ho had weakness. Therefore, He was without weakness. That's all for tonight. I'm going to bed. the Roo Stupid response – So a God humbling himself to become a servant is an example for us? So as soon as I become a God I will humble myself too.  thanks man that should be useful to me.  NOT!!! HOWEVER – I am tempted every day and Christ as a man overcoming that temptation is something I can have hope in and follow from his example.

martian

Is it not true that Jesus came to reveal the Father or God in the flesh?

Isn't Christ example for us, is to be like God?

Isn't it the image of God we are being created into?

It seems your focus is merely on Jesus a man of flesh and not God who was in the flesh!

Your doctrine is not practical because it is God who lives in us, therefore we should be like God and not merely a man of flesh!

WJ

[GeneBalthrop]

To All…………1 John 4:12…..> No man has seen God at any time, If we love one another, GOD dwells (IN) us, and HIS love is perfect (IN) us. God can not be seen (ever) He is Spirit and Lives vicariously (IN) his creation . GOD lives in the high place of our minds He is spirit and spirit can never be (seen) because it is Spirit (intellect) with power. God can only be manifested (IN) his creation as He was (IN) Jesus . He is what life (IS). Jesus said he spoke of the Father in proverbs (fictitious language) but a time would come when he would show us plainly of the Father. God IMAGES himself through His creation. Remember when Thomas said my Lord (Jesus) (AND) my GOD , He recognized the Present of GOD (IN) Jesus. God was truly (IN) Jesus, and it just downed on Thomas at that time. The word (Heaven) need more clarity, IMO

peace and love to you all…………………..gene

[GeneBalthrop]

KJ………..Can't you control yourself, quite posting all your goofy caricatures of yourself, it only show your ignorance brother. Get serious and try to really think about what people are telling you, open the gate of you mind and absorb for a change. Come out of all those false teaching you have embraced by those brain washing TRINITARIANS.

peace and love ………………………..gene

[martian]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 03 2010,01:51)

Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ July 01 2010,19:00) The scripture UNAMBIGUOUSLY says that those who had weakness were appointed as high priests by the law. So if Christ had weakness He would also have been appointed by the law. He was not appointed by the law but by the oath BECAUSE He Himself was the SURETY. Hi Jack It is amazing how martians own theorys contradict him. Martian insist that the Word that was with God in John 1:1 is the word (thought or plan) of God made flesh in Jesus. If Martians theory is true then it would not be possible for Gods word (thought or plan) to fail!   Another one of those straw mans blown to smithereens! WJ

Talk about a straw man —
I never claimed that the plan of God (logos) to have a perfected son in Christ could not fail. In an attempt to refute my position you have misrepresented it.

A straw man argument is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position.[1] To “attack a straw man” is to create the illusion of having refuted a proposition by substituting a superficially similar yet weaker proposition (the “straw man”), and refuting it, without ever having actually refuted the original position

To say that God’s plan cannot fail is silly. Did god cause the fall of man in the garden? Was that part of God’s plan? Man has free will. That is part of God’s plan. Free will insures that those that come to God do so of their own accord and are not merely robots following programming.

Guess it is your straw man that went -BOOM

[martian]

WJ

You say –
Is it not true that Jesus came to reveal the Father or God in the flesh?

Reply –
Not exactly. Christ came to show us by example what it means to have the fullness of God dwelling in a human being.

You say –
Isn't Christ example for us, is to be like God?
Yes in character. And how does that look or act in a human being? JESUS

You say –
Isn't it the image of God we are being created into?
Reply
Yes and Jesus is the first to truly reflect that image.

You say-
It seems your focus is merely on Jesus a man of flesh and not God who was in the flesh!

Reply
That is correct I do not focus on the false theory of God in the flesh.

You say-
Your doctrine is not practical because it is God who lives in us, therefore we should be like God and not merely a man of flesh!

Reply-
And where do we see an example of God living in a human being in a perfect manner? How would that human act or speak? What power would he have? How much could he overcome? How can I follow him? We are called to follow Christ our human brother and walk in like manner as he did.
The only way to answer those questions is to have an example that walked the path before us. One who is just like us yet overcame all.

For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps: Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:
Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously: Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.
I Peter 2:21-24

Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.
I Corithians 11:1

And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
Mark 8:34

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (martian @ July 02 2010,10:38)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 03 2010,01:51) Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ July 01 2010,19:00) The scripture UNAMBIGUOUSLY says that those who had weakness were appointed as high priests by the law. So if Christ had weakness He would also have been appointed by the law. He was not appointed by the law but by the oath BECAUSE He Himself was the SURETY. Hi Jack It is amazing how martians own theorys contradict him. Martian insist that the Word that was with God in John 1:1 is the word (thought or plan) of God made flesh in Jesus. If Martians theory is true then it would not be possible for Gods word (thought or plan) to fail!   Another one of those straw mans blown to smithereens! WJ Talk about a straw man — I never claimed that the plan of God (logos) to have a perfected son in Christ could not fail. In an attempt to refute my position you have misrepresented it. A straw man argument is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position.[1] To “attack a straw man” is to create the illusion of having refuted a proposition by substituting a superficially similar yet weaker proposition (the “straw man”), and refuting it, without ever having actually refuted the original position To say that God’s plan cannot fail is silly. Did god cause the fall of man in the garden? Was that part of God’s plan? Man has free will. That is part of God’s plan. Free will insures that those that come to God do so of their own accord and are not merely robots following programming. Guess it is your straw man that went -BOOM

Martian

Wrong again. Jesus is the “Lamb of God” that was slain before the foundation of the world.

God foreknew us before creation and predestined us before creation.

So Adam was in the plan of God, wasn't he?

WJ

[martian]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 03 2010,02:53)

Quote (martian @ July 02 2010,10:38) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 03 2010,01:51) Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ July 01 2010,19:00) The scripture UNAMBIGUOUSLY says that those who had weakness were appointed as high priests by the law. So if Christ had weakness He would also have been appointed by the law. He was not appointed by the law but by the oath BECAUSE He Himself was the SURETY. Hi Jack It is amazing how martians own theorys contradict him. Martian insist that the Word that was with God in John 1:1 is the word (thought or plan) of God made flesh in Jesus. If Martians theory is true then it would not be possible for Gods word (thought or plan) to fail!   Another one of those straw mans blown to smithereens! WJ Talk about a straw man — I never claimed that the plan of God (logos) to have a perfected son in Christ could not fail. In an attempt to refute my position you have misrepresented it. A straw man argument is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position.[1] To “attack a straw man” is to create the illusion of having refuted a proposition by substituting a superficially similar yet weaker proposition (the “straw man”), and refuting it, without ever having actually refuted the original position To say that God’s plan cannot fail is silly. Did god cause the fall of man in the garden? Was that part of God’s plan? Man has free will. That is part of God’s plan. Free will insures that those that come to God do so of their own accord and are not merely robots following programming. Guess it is your straw man that went -BOOM Martian Wrong again. Jesus is the “Lamb of God” that was slain before the foundation of the world. God foreknew us before creation and predestined us before creation. So Adam was in the plan of God, wasn't he? WJ

Just because God knew what was going to happen does not mean that he interfered to make it come out that way.
If you do not believe in free will then you are way out there in la la land.
If man does not have free will then why even seek God. it is already preordained who will be saved.
Christ obviously had free will (like the rest of mankind) It was not his will to die, but he submitted to his father's will.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (martian @ July 02 2010,11:29)

Just because God knew what was going to happen does not mean that he interfered to make it come out that way.

Really?

So God created everything and left it for chance?

Are you a “Deist”?

Did he interfere with man when Jesus came to save us?

God has always been interfering with man, remember “Pharaoh” and “Nebuchadnezzar”?

WJ

[KangarooJack]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 03 2010,01:51)

Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ July 01 2010,19:00) The scripture UNAMBIGUOUSLY says that those who had weakness were appointed as high priests by the law. So if Christ had weakness He would also have been appointed by the law. He was not appointed by the law but by the oath BECAUSE He Himself was the SURETY. Hi Jack It is amazing how martians own theorys contradict him. Martian insist that the Word that was with God in John 1:1 is the word (thought or plan) of God made flesh in Jesus. If Martians theory is true then it would not be possible for Gods word (thought or plan) to fail!   Another one of those straw mans blown to smithereens! WJ

Keith,

It is so simple! Men who had weakness were appointed as high priests by the law. Jesus was not appointed by the law but by oath.

It's clear! He had no weakness.

Jack

[martian]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 03 2010,03:52)

Quote (martian @ July 02 2010,11:29) Just because God knew what was going to happen does not mean that he interfered to make it come out that way. Really? So God created everything and left it for chance? Are you a “Deist”? Did he interfere with man when Jesus came to save us? God has always been interfering with man, remember “Pharaoh” and “Nebuchadnezzar”? WJ

You say-
So God created everything and left it for chance?
Reply-
No God leaves everything to “CHIOCE”.
Notice in the following scriptures that it says Pharaoh hardened his own heart. Yet scripture also says that God hardened pharaoh’s heart.
Can you explain how this can be?

Exodus 8:15
But when Pharaoh saw that there was relief, he hardened his heart and did not listen to them, as the LORD had said.

Exodus 8:32
But Pharaoh hardened his heart this time also, and he did not let the people go.
The fact is that God is not static but fluid in his works. The Greek thinking mind wants to put God in a box of dogmas and doctrines. Just like the pharasees. That is why they could not live by every word that proceeds out of his mouth.
God has always provoked us. He provoked Adam and Eve just by putting the Tree of knowledge of Good and Evil in the Garden. He came in their face and offered them a choice. God not only created us with free will but he insists that we use it.
God provoked Pharaoh to make a choice. He tested him to see what would come out. After the resurrection Christ did the same to Paul. It was hard for Paul to kick against the prods. He was provoked into making a choice.
As human beings we are constantly provoked to make choices. We have a predetermined destiny set before us. If we would set aside all our fears and the weights we put upon ourselves what is the limit that we could achieve? How big is God?

It is not temptation or interferance for God to provoke us. He places clear choicest in front of us and forces us to choose.
Christ and the way he lived was a clear choice.
We could follow along the same path as Christ or we can stay in our dogma box. God wants us out of the box and will provoke from time to time to make choices.
I would rather that you were hot or cold but because you are luke warm I spit you out of my mouth.
If we are hot for God then all is well. If we are cold but still making choices God can work with us and guide us toward the right path. If we are luke warm God can do nothing with us. Those are the ones that are provoked. Those are the ones who’s choices are made very clear. Pharaoh was shown very clearly that to keep the Hebrews in bondage was against His will. Sign after sign was given and still pharaoh still refused.
So whose fault was it that pharaoh hardened his heart? God or pharaoh? The answer is hard for some religious people to understand. It was both. God takes responsibility for the provocation and pharaoh takes responsibility for the choice spurred on by that provocation.
God subjected the world to futility and he alone takes responsibility for that. He does it to provoke us to seek him above all else.
We are constantly tested to see what will come out of us. We are provoked at times to force us to choose.

I will be honest with you WJ. I fear you will not get this. More’s the pity.

[KangarooJack]

Quote (martian @ July 03 2010,05:46)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 03 2010,03:52) Quote (martian @ July 02 2010,11:29) Just because God knew what was going to happen does not mean that he interfered to make it come out that way. Really? So God created everything and left it for chance? Are you a “Deist”? Did he interfere with man when Jesus came to save us? God has always been interfering with man, remember “Pharaoh” and “Nebuchadnezzar”? WJ You say- So God created everything and left it for chance? Reply- No God leaves everything to “CHIOCE”. Notice in the following scriptures that it says Pharaoh hardened his own heart. Yet scripture also says that God hardened pharaoh’s heart. Can you explain how this can be? Exodus 8:15 But when Pharaoh saw that there was relief, he hardened his heart and did not listen to them, as the LORD had said. Exodus 8:32 But Pharaoh hardened his heart this time also, and he did not let the people go. The fact is that God is not static but fluid in his works. The Greek thinking mind wants to put God in a box of dogmas and doctrines. Just like the pharasees. That is why they could not live by every word that proceeds out of his mouth. God has always provoked us. He provoked Adam and Eve just by putting the Tree of knowledge of Good and Evil in the Garden. He came in their face and offered them a choice. God not only created us with free will but he insists that we use it. God provoked Pharaoh to make a choice. He tested him to see what would come out. After the resurrection Christ did the same to Paul. It was hard for Paul to kick against the prods.  He was provoked into making a choice. As human beings we are constantly provoked to make choices. We have a predetermined destiny set before us. If we would set aside all our fears and the weights we put upon ourselves what is the limit that we could achieve? How big is God? It is not temptation or interferance for God to provoke us. He places clear choicest in front of us and forces us to choose. Christ and the way he lived was a clear choice. We could follow along the same path as Christ or we can stay in our dogma box. God wants us out of the box and will provoke from time to time to make choices. I would rather that you were hot or cold but because you are luke warm I spit you out of my mouth. If we are hot for God then all is well. If we are cold but still making choices God can work with us and guide us toward the right path. If we are luke warm God can do nothing with us. Those are the ones that are provoked. Those are the ones who’s choices are made very clear. Pharaoh was shown very clearly that to keep the Hebrews in bondage was against His will. Sign after sign was given and still pharaoh still refused. So whose fault was it that pharaoh hardened his heart? God or pharaoh? The answer is hard for some religious people to understand. It was both. God takes responsibility for the provocation and pharaoh takes responsibility for the choice spurred on by that provocation. God subjected the world to futility and he alone takes responsibility for that. He does it to provoke us to seek him above all else. We are constantly tested to see what will come out of us. We are provoked at times to force us to choose. I will be honest with you WJ. I fear you will not get this. More’s the pity.

the Roo

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (martian @ July 02 2010,13:46)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 03 2010,03:52) martian,July wrote: Just because God knew what was going to happen does not mean that he interfered to make it come out that way. Really? So God created everything and left it for chance? Are you a “Deist”? Did he interfere with man when Jesus came to save us? God has always been interfering with man, remember “Pharaoh” and “Nebuchadnezzar”? WJ

Quote (martian @ July 02 2010,13:46)

We are constantly tested to see what will come out of us. We are provoked at times to force us to choose. I will be honest with you WJ. I fear you will not get this. More’s the pity.

Martian

Don't fear for me for I know in whom I have believed.

Will God's will ultimately be fulfilled? God hardened the heart of the Pharaoh to show his power!

You didn't touch on Nebuchaadnezzar, did he choose to be like a beast in the field?

WJ

[terraricca]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 02 2010,13:09)

Quote (terraricca @ July 02 2010,07:54) and no one as seen God but the son ;;is this mean also in heaven??could be. Hi Pierre, Matthew 18:10 NIV “See that you do not look down on one of these little ones. For I tell you that their angels in heaven always see the face of my Father in heaven. I hope this helps. peace and love, mike

hi mike

you quote;;color=blue]Matthew 18:10 NIV
“See that you do not look down on one of these little ones. For I tell you that their angels in heaven always see the face of my Father in heaven

what does it mean ??

Pierre

[martian]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 03 2010,06:08)

Quote (martian @ July 02 2010,13:46) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 03 2010,03:52) martian,July wrote: Just because God knew what was going to happen does not mean that he interfered to make it come out that way. Really? So God created everything and left it for chance? Are you a “Deist”? Did he interfere with man when Jesus came to save us? God has always been interfering with man, remember “Pharaoh” and “Nebuchadnezzar”? WJ Quote (martian @ July 02 2010,13:46) We are constantly tested to see what will come out of us. We are provoked at times to force us to choose. I will be honest with you WJ. I fear you will not get this. More’s the pity. Martian Don't fear for me for I know in whom I have believed. Will God's will ultimately be fulfilled? God hardened the heart of the Pharaoh to show his power! You didn't touch on Nebuchaadnezzar, did he choose to be like a beast in the field? WJ

Is your theory based on the three individual words that are translated harden(ed) in the NAS?
Perhaps you should start there.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (martian @ July 02 2010,19:03)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 03 2010,06:08) Quote (martian @ July 02 2010,13:46) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 03 2010,03:52) martian,July wrote: Just because God knew what was going to happen does not mean that he interfered to make it come out that way. Really? So God created everything and left it for chance? Are you a “Deist”? Did he interfere with man when Jesus came to save us? God has always been interfering with man, remember “Pharaoh” and “Nebuchadnezzar”? WJ Quote (martian @ July 02 2010,13:46) We are constantly tested to see what will come out of us. We are provoked at times to force us to choose. I will be honest with you WJ. I fear you will not get this. More’s the pity. Martian Don't fear for me for I know in whom I have believed. Will God's will ultimately be fulfilled? God hardened the heart of the Pharaoh to show his power! You didn't touch on Nebuchaadnezzar, did he choose to be like a beast in the field? WJ Is your theory based on the three individual words that are translated harden(ed) in the NAS? Perhaps you should start there.

Martian

How about starting here…

As it is written, “Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. For he saith to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion“. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, “but of God that sheweth mercy“. **For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth (sklērynō). Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?** What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? Rom 9:13-24

The Greek word for “Hardeneth” is 'sklērynō' which means…

1) to make hard, harden

2) metaph.

a) to render obstinate, stubborn

b) to be hardened

c) to become obstinate or stubborn

It is found 6 times in the NT and in each case it is dealing with the heart!

I believe we have “free will”, the freedom to choose right or wrong, but I also believe that God whenever he wants to can do whatever he wants with his creation!

Thank God that he can and he will interfere with man and his ways.

The Lord giveth and the Lord can take away!

WJ

[GeneBalthrop]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 03 2010,15:51)

As it is written, “Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. For he saith to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion“. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, “but of God that sheweth mercy“. **For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth (sklērynō). Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?** What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? Rom 9:13-24 The Greek word for “Hardeneth” is 'sklērynō' which means… 1) to make hard, harden 2) metaph. a) to render obstinate, stubborn b) to be hardened c) to become obstinate or stubborn It is found 6 times in the NT and in each case it is dealing with the heart! I believe we have “free will”, the freedom to choose right or wrong, but I also believe that God whenever he wants to can do whatever he wants with his creation! Thank God that he can and he will interfere with man and his ways. The Lord giveth and the Lord can take away! WJ

WJ………..Something we totally agree on for a change. Only it should be posted in the “FREE” Will thread > IMO

peace and love to you and yours……………………gene

[martian]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 03 2010,15:51)

Quote (martian @ July 02 2010,19:03) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 03 2010,06:08) Quote (martian @ July 02 2010,13:46) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 03 2010,03:52) martian,July wrote: Just because God knew what was going to happen does not mean that he interfered to make it come out that way. Really? So God created everything and left it for chance? Are you a “Deist”? Did he interfere with man when Jesus came to save us? God has always been interfering with man, remember “Pharaoh” and “Nebuchadnezzar”? WJ Quote (martian @ July 02 2010,13:46) We are constantly tested to see what will come out of us. We are provoked at times to force us to choose. I will be honest with you WJ. I fear you will not get this. More’s the pity. Martian Don't fear for me for I know in whom I have believed. Will God's will ultimately be fulfilled? God hardened the heart of the Pharaoh to show his power! You didn't touch on Nebuchaadnezzar, did he choose to be like a beast in the field? WJ Is your theory based on the three individual words that are translated harden(ed) in the NAS? Perhaps you should start there. Martian How about starting here… As it is written, “Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. For he saith to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion“. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, “but of God that sheweth mercy“. **For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth (sklērynō). Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?** What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? Rom 9:13-24 The Greek word for “Hardeneth” is 'sklērynō' which means… 1) to make hard, harden 2) metaph. a) to render obstinate, stubborn b) to be hardened c) to become obstinate or stubborn It is found 6 times in the NT and in each case it is dealing with the heart! I believe we have “free will”, the freedom to choose right or wrong, but I also believe that God whenever he wants to can do whatever he wants with his creation! Thank God that he can and he will interfere with man and his ways. The Lord giveth and the Lord can take away! WJ

Still think the Hebrew is more revealing. Perhaps we should start there. After all it is in the hebrew that the story is originally written.

[GeneBalthrop]

martian……..Those things WJ quoted were from the old Hebrew texts brother.

peace and love to you and yours martian………………………gene

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