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Hi KJ,
Or should we call you ERGO?
Your self induced blindness badly needs some salve.
Instead or studying God and the bible and frustrating yourself why not respond to the invitation?WJ,
So you crawled out of the bottomless pit having been released 'for a 'little while'.
Did I not 'prophess' your reaction after two days?
Tell everyone that JA was wrong.
Still, it shows you have healthy fear of lying against the Holy Spirit.
You still, not for the first time, do not say that you Worship the Holy Spirit, outright.
Yes, you say, 'God, as the three'. WJ, say it by itself, that you worship the Holy Spirit.
Why are you fearfull. Hey, double deja vu, twice now , I remember asking you…WJ, i warrant you don't worship ANY of them, you just 'say' it … Is that what they call 'paying lip service'?
Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ June 29 2010,05:48) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 29 2010,04:01) WJ………..Honor a man is one thing but worship as a GOD is quite another IMO. peace and love………………………gene
But Jesus said that “all men should honor the Son EVEN AS they honor the Father.” You don't honor the Father as a man do you? You honor Him as God. Ergo….Hebrews 3:1-3:
For this One has been counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as He who built the house has more honor than the house. 4 For every house is built by someone, but He who built all things is God.
Christ is counted worthy of the glory and honor of the builder. The builder is God. Therefore, Christ is honored as God.
No degree in rocket science is needed Gene. All you need is to take off your blinders.
KJ
No one ever said that Christ did not cooperate with God to build the house. the primary way he did that was to live and teach how a human being walks with God. H does not need to be deity to do any of it. that has more value then him doing it as a God.
Does man need the example of a God overcoming sin?
Does man need an example of a God being raised from the dead?
Does man need the example of a God wallking a godly life on Earth?
NO! He needs a man to use as an example of all these things to take real hope in them.Quote (martian @ June 29 2010,09:58) Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ June 29 2010,05:48) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 29 2010,04:01) WJ………..Honor a man is one thing but worship as a GOD is quite another IMO. peace and love………………………gene
But Jesus said that “all men should honor the Son EVEN AS they honor the Father.” You don't honor the Father as a man do you? You honor Him as God. Ergo….Hebrews 3:1-3:
For this One has been counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as He who built the house has more honor than the house. 4 For every house is built by someone, but He who built all things is God.
Christ is counted worthy of the glory and honor of the builder. The builder is God. Therefore, Christ is honored as God.
No degree in rocket science is needed Gene. All you need is to take off your blinders.
KJ
No one ever said that Christ did not cooperate with God to build the house. the primary way he did that was to live and teach how a human being walks with God. H does not need to be deity to do any of it. that has more value then him doing it as a God.
Does man need the example of a God overcoming sin?
Does man need an example of a God being raised from the dead?
Does man need the example of a God wallking a godly life on Earth?
NO! He needs a man to use as an example of all these things to take real hope in them.
Hog wash! It CLEARLY says that Christ is counted worthy of the glory of the builder because He IS the builder. The builder is God. Therefore, Christ is God.For this One has been counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as He who built the house has more honor than the house. 4 For every house is built by someone, but He who built all things is God.
This is a clear cut assertion that Christ is God.
the Roo
Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ June 29 2010,10:05) Quote (martian @ June 29 2010,09:58) Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ June 29 2010,05:48) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 29 2010,04:01) WJ………..Honor a man is one thing but worship as a GOD is quite another IMO. peace and love………………………gene
But Jesus said that “all men should honor the Son EVEN AS they honor the Father.” You don't honor the Father as a man do you? You honor Him as God. Ergo….Hebrews 3:1-3:
For this One has been counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as He who built the house has more honor than the house. 4 For every house is built by someone, but He who built all things is God.
Christ is counted worthy of the glory and honor of the builder. The builder is God. Therefore, Christ is honored as God.
No degree in rocket science is needed Gene. All you need is to take off your blinders.
KJ
No one ever said that Christ did not cooperate with God to build the house. the primary way he did that was to live and teach how a human being walks with God. H does not need to be deity to do any of it. that has more value then him doing it as a God.
Does man need the example of a God overcoming sin?
Does man need an example of a God being raised from the dead?
Does man need the example of a God wallking a godly life on Earth?
NO! He needs a man to use as an example of all these things to take real hope in them.
Hog wash! It CLEARLY says that Christ is counted worthy of the glory of the builder because He IS the builder. The builder is God. Therefore, Christ is God.For this One has been counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as He who built the house has more honor than the house. 4 For every house is built by someone, but He who built all things is God.
This is a clear cut assertion that Christ is God.
the Roo
Is that where you have been keeping yourself? In the pig pen?
I see you did not answer the other questions. It makes no difference what you think you can prove from scripture if it works against Christ as our example.
You conclusions work against Christ as our example. In other words Anti-Christ
I agree with Gene. What purpose does it serve to send a God to be our example?
You are just being silly.Roo
Regardless of all the arguments we have had, I want one serious question answered.
Are you employed by the forum to stir things up?It is difficult for me to believe that any person could be so obtuse without doing it on purpose, perhaps for hire. I have heard that some forums hire people to post silly things to keep the argument going.
Quote (martian @ June 29 2010,10:34) Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ June 29 2010,10:05) Quote (martian @ June 29 2010,09:58) Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ June 29 2010,05:48) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 29 2010,04:01) WJ………..Honor a man is one thing but worship as a GOD is quite another IMO. peace and love………………………gene
But Jesus said that “all men should honor the Son EVEN AS they honor the Father.” You don't honor the Father as a man do you? You honor Him as God. Ergo….Hebrews 3:1-3:
For this One has been counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as He who built the house has more honor than the house. 4 For every house is built by someone, but He who built all things is God.
Christ is counted worthy of the glory and honor of the builder. The builder is God. Therefore, Christ is honored as God.
No degree in rocket science is needed Gene. All you need is to take off your blinders.
KJ
No one ever said that Christ did not cooperate with God to build the house. the primary way he did that was to live and teach how a human being walks with God. H does not need to be deity to do any of it. that has more value then him doing it as a God.
Does man need the example of a God overcoming sin?
Does man need an example of a God being raised from the dead?
Does man need the example of a God wallking a godly life on Earth?
NO! He needs a man to use as an example of all these things to take real hope in them.
Hog wash! It CLEARLY says that Christ is counted worthy of the glory of the builder because He IS the builder. The builder is God. Therefore, Christ is God.For this One has been counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as He who built the house has more honor than the house. 4 For every house is built by someone, but He who built all things is God.
This is a clear cut assertion that Christ is God.
the Roo
Is that where you have been keeping yourself? In the pig pen?
I see you did not answer the other questions. It makes no difference what you think you can prove from scripture if it works against Christ as our example.
You conclusions work against Christ as our example. In other words Anti-Christ
I agree with Gene. What purpose does it serve to send a God to be our example?
You are just being silly.
I don't answer all your questions because I like to cut to the chase. If I destroy your main point than I bring all your points down at once. The Hebrews text says nothing at all about Christ “cooperating” in building the house. It says that He is counted worthy of more glory than Moses “inasmuch as the builder of the house has more glory than the house.” Then it says that the builder is God. Therefore, Christ is God. This says it all.The second reason I don't answer all your points is because you are a bore. For instance, you say that my conclusions work against Christ as our example. You should say it this way: Your conclusions work against Christ as our example for these reasons, A, B, C. You make many bare assertions without demonstrating them.
The scripture says that Jesus is a High Priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek. Melchizedek was a manifestation of God. It clearly says that he had no beginning of days nor end of life but was made a High Priest like the Son of God. This necessarily infers that Christ also was a manifestation of God. This means that God was the High priest that could be touched with the feeling of our infirmities.
You're not a challenge to me. You are a bore. So I just give you quickie answers. Your god cannot understand me because he canot become like me. You are a full blown gnostic and you are outside the gates of true Christianity.
the Roo
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 24 2010,04:25) Yep, if Abraham and Paul are Fathers of my faith, then Jesus is my “everlasting father” also. How about you?
Good. As you can see, that verse could be used (incorrectly) to prove he was the Heavenly Father as some denominations do. I think Oneness doctrine does.So now you just need to be as flexible and open in reading the 'mighty el' part as well.
Look up the usage for the word 'el' yourself, and you will see a range of options of which one is being used. It helps to see options that are in agreement with scripture rather than one that is in agrrement with a 3rd century creed.
Do you understand the usages in scripture for 'el'?
Quote (martian @ June 29 2010,10:42) Roo
Regardless of all the arguments we have had, I want one serious question answered.
Are you employed by the forum to stir things up?It is difficult for me to believe that any person could be so obtuse without doing it on purpose, perhaps for hire. I have heard that some forums hire people to post silly things to keep the argument going.
I can give you my personal assurance that he is not being paid or is not working for Heaven Net. He is offering his services for free and on his own accord.Quote (t8 @ June 29 2010,11:49) Quote (martian @ June 29 2010,10:42) Roo
Regardless of all the arguments we have had, I want one serious question answered.
Are you employed by the forum to stir things up?It is difficult for me to believe that any person could be so obtuse without doing it on purpose, perhaps for hire. I have heard that some forums hire people to post silly things to keep the argument going.
I can give you my personal assurance that he is not being paid or is not working for Heaven Net. He is offering his services for free and on his own accord.
Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ June 29 2010,11:01) Quote (martian @ June 29 2010,10:34) Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ June 29 2010,10:05) Quote (martian @ June 29 2010,09:58) Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ June 29 2010,05:48) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 29 2010,04:01) WJ………..Honor a man is one thing but worship as a GOD is quite another IMO. peace and love………………………gene
But Jesus said that “all men should honor the Son EVEN AS they honor the Father.” You don't honor the Father as a man do you? You honor Him as God. Ergo….Hebrews 3:1-3:
For this One has been counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as He who built the house has more honor than the house. 4 For every house is built by someone, but He who built all things is God.
Christ is counted worthy of the glory and honor of the builder. The builder is God. Therefore, Christ is honored as God.
No degree in rocket science is needed Gene. All you need is to take off your blinders.
KJ
No one ever said that Christ did not cooperate with God to build the house. the primary way he did that was to live and teach how a human being walks with God. H does not need to be deity to do any of it. that has more value then him doing it as a God.
Does man need the example of a God overcoming sin?
Does man need an example of a God being raised from the dead?
Does man need the example of a God wallking a godly life on Earth?
NO! He needs a man to use as an example of all these things to take real hope in them.
Hog wash! It CLEARLY says that Christ is counted worthy of the glory of the builder because He IS the builder. The builder is God. Therefore, Christ is God.For this One has been counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as He who built the house has more honor than the house. 4 For every house is built by someone, but He who built all things is God.
This is a clear cut assertion that Christ is God.
the Roo
Is that where you have been keeping yourself? In the pig pen?
I see you did not answer the other questions. It makes no difference what you think you can prove from scripture if it works against Christ as our example.
You conclusions work against Christ as our example. In other words Anti-Christ
I agree with Gene. What purpose does it serve to send a God to be our example?
You are just being silly.
I don't answer all your questions because I like to cut to the chase. If I destroy your main point than I bring all your points down at once. The Hebrews text says nothing at all about Christ “cooperating” in building the house. It says that He is counted worthy of more glory than Moses “inasmuch as the builder of the house has more glory than the house.” Then it says that the builder is God. Therefore, Christ is God. This says it all.The second reason I don't answer all your points is because you are a bore. For instance, you say that my conclusions work against Christ as our example. You should say it this way: Your conclusions work against Christ as our example for these reasons, A, B, C. You make many bare assertions without demonstrating them.
The scripture says that Jesus is a High Priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek. Melchizedek was a manifestation of God. It clearly says that he had no beginning of days nor end of life but was made a High Priest like the Son of God. This necessarily infers that Christ also was a manifestation of God. This means that God was the High priest that could be touched with the feeling of our infirmities.
You're not a challenge to me. You are a bore. So I just give you quickie answers. Your god cannot understand me because he canot become like me. You are a full blown gnostic and you are outside the gates of true Christianity.
the Roo
OK. Lets look at your “absolute” proof.
First let’s look at the context.
My comments in brackets.1Therefore, holy brethren, partakers of a heavenly calling, consider Jesus, the Apostle and High Priest of our confession;
[Apostle and High Priest. Both human callings]
2He was faithful to Him who appointed Him, as Moses also was in all His house.
[Appointed by God. A God appointed by another God?]
3For He has been counted worthy of more glory than Moses, by just so much as the builder of the house has more honor than the house.
[The house is the church and those that work on behalf of the church deserve more honor then those being built]
4For every house is built by someone, but the builder of all things is God.
[Every church is built by someone that is appointed by God. This includes evangelists prophets teachers music directors pastors ect. Are they all Gods? The fact that they derive their power from God does not make them God.]
5Now Moses was faithful in all His house as a servant, for a testimony of those things which were to be spoken later;
6but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house–whose house we are, if we hold fast our confidence and the boast of our hope firm until the end.
[There is a definite difference between a servant and a son, but neither requires deity.]
So much for your “absolute” proof.Now you say I never give the ABC’s of my reasons? I actually do but you ignore them as WJ does.
So let me ask you a few questions
Which would be more beneficial for mankind to walk with God?
A God overcomes sin as an example or a man overcomes sin as an example.
A God is raised from the dead as an example or a man is raised from the dead as an example.
A God resists temptation as an example or a man resists temptation as an example.
A God shows a father son relationship with another God or God shows relationship with a human son as an example to humanity.
From which can a man draw hope or encouragement?
From which can a man gain hope for his own life?You conclusions work against the Father to human son relationship. they work against this very important mission of christ. That is anti-Christ
Roo, just a BTW —
Before you call someone a Gnostic you should learn what the gnostics believed.
Britannica Concise Encyclopedia:
Dualism
(Dualism is a form of Gnosticism)
In philosophy, any pair of irreducible, mutually heterogeneous principles used to analyze the nature and origins of knowledge (epistemological dualism) or to explain all of reality or some broad aspect of it (metaphysical dualism); also, any theory that employs dualisms. Examples of epistemological dualisms are subject and object and sensation and sensibilia; examples of metaphysical dualisms are mind and matter, good and evil, and GOD AND WORLD. Dualism is distinguished from monism and pluralism.This is part and partial of the belief that Christ could not be a “mere” man. It stems from the belief that no good thing could be born of the lower Earthly realm.
I do not disbelieve that Christ is a Man/God because I think of the Earthly realm as evil. I do not believe that Christ is Dual natured Creature because it does not fit within the plan of God.
God is not the author of confusion. The problem with Christ as a God is that it DOES cause confusion.
Christ as a God brings all he did, as an example, into question. There is no way of knowing if he did the things via his humanity or via his deity. With Christ as a God how can anyone know (without speculation) which of his natures overcame sin or rose from the dead or was one with God?
There are those that even go a step farther to say that Christ was the Father in a suit of flesh. This creates even more of a problem. Now there can be no doubt that he who overcame sin and death, he who resisted temptation and healed the masses was a God. It is impossible for us to follow that or use it as an example. I cannot follow till I become deity. I am not a God and never will be, so I can never be like this deified Christ or use his life as an example.Quote (JustAskin @ June 28 2010,17:15) WJ, So you crawled out of the bottomless pit having been released 'for a 'little while'.
Did I not 'prophess' your reaction after two days?
Tell everyone that JA was wrong.
Still, it shows you have healthy fear of lying against the Holy Spirit.
You still, not for the first time, do not say that you Worship the Holy Spirit, outright.
Yes, you say, 'God, as the three'. WJ, say it by itself, that you worship the Holy Spirit.
Why are you fearfull. Hey, double deja vu, twice now , I remember asking you…WJ, i warrant you don't worship ANY of them, you just 'say' it … Is that what they call 'paying lip service'?
Is God Holy? Is God Spirit? Then is his Holy Spirit any less than God being of the same essence as the Father and proceeding from the Father and Jesus to live in our bodies which is his Temple?I worship the Father!
I worship Jesus!
I worship the Holy Spirit!
These three are One.
Sweet Holy Spirit, I praise you and worship you for all you have done and will do in my life! Thank you for your guidance and showing me the truth and the way! Thank you for being my Counselor and giving me power to live the victorius life! Thank you for shedding abroad the Love of God in my heart!
If I am still around then JA will be proven to be a false prophet and not speaking by the Holy Spirit of God.
Shall you try and put a curse on a child of God JA?
I am covered in the blood of the Lamb, my Great God and Savour who causes me to be more than a conqueror, and nothing that you say and do shall by any means harm me! Tit 2:13, 14
And I worship you Father, Son and Holy Spirit for who you are!
WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 30 2010,02:23) Quote (JustAskin @ June 28 2010,17:15) WJ, So you crawled out of the bottomless pit having been released 'for a 'little while'.
Did I not 'prophess' your reaction after two days?
Tell everyone that JA was wrong.
Still, it shows you have healthy fear of lying against the Holy Spirit.
You still, not for the first time, do not say that you Worship the Holy Spirit, outright.
Yes, you say, 'God, as the three'. WJ, say it by itself, that you worship the Holy Spirit.
Why are you fearfull. Hey, double deja vu, twice now , I remember asking you…WJ, i warrant you don't worship ANY of them, you just 'say' it … Is that what they call 'paying lip service'?
Is God Holy? Is God Spirit? Then is his Holy Spirit any less than God being of the same essence as the Father and proceeding from the Father and Jesus to live in our bodies which is his Temple?I worship the Father!
I worship Jesus!
I worship the Holy Spirit!
These three are One.
Sweet Holy Spirit, I praise you and worship you for all you have done and will do in my life! Thank you for your guidance and showing me the truth and the way! Thank you for being my Counselor and giving me power to live the victorius life! Thank you for shedding abroad the Love of God in my heart!
If I am still around then JA will be proven to be a false prophet and not speaking by the Holy Spirit of God.
Shall you try and put a curse on a child of God JA?
I am covered in the blood of the Lamb, my Great God and Savour who causes me to be more than a conqueror, and nothing that you say and do shall by any means harm me! Tit 2:13, 14
And I worship you Father, Son and Holy Spirit for who you are!
WJ
God is indeed merciful. He even hears the prayers of those that are confused about his identity.
According to scripture all that is required to be saved is to believe in God his appointed savior and that Christ rose from the dead.
I believe that you acknowledge these things. unfortunately you add a lot more to it.Martian said:
Quote Appointed by God. A God appointed by another God?]
The Word existed in the form of God but took the form of a servant for the umteenth time. His being appointed by God is consistent with His taking the form of a servant. Please don't make me keep repeating this.Martian:
Quote [There is a definite difference between a servant and a son, but neither requires deity.]
So much for your “absolute” proof.
Now you're the one always touting how we should interpret according to Hebrew thought. Yet you ignore the plain fact that the Jew did not hold to your antithesis between the names “Son of God” and “God.”The Jews answered him, “We have a law, and according to our[a] law He ought to die, because He made Himself the Son of God.” John 19:7
The “law” required the death penalty for anyone who made Himself to be the Son of God. Note that the law reads thus:
And whoever blasphemes the name of YHWH shall surely be put to death. All the congregation shall certainly stone him, the stranger as well as him who is born in the land. When he blasphemes the name of the YHWH, he shall be put to death. Lev. 24:16
It is clear that Christ's claim to be the Son of God amounted to blasphemy against the name of YHWH.
So much for your antithesis between the Son of God and God.
the Roo
Quote (martian @ June 30 2010,00:57) [quote=Kangaroo Jack,June 29 2010 Now you say I never give the ABC’s of my reasons? I actually do but you ignore them as WJ does.
So let me ask you a few questions
Which would be more beneficial for mankind to walk with God?
A God overcomes sin as an example or a man overcomes sin as an example.
A God is raised from the dead as an example or a man is raised from the dead as an example.
A God resists temptation as an example or a man resists temptation as an example.
A God shows a father son relationship with another God or God shows relationship with a human son as an example to humanity.
From which can a man draw hope or encouragement?
From which can a man gain hope for his own life?You conclusions work against the Father to human son relationship. they work against this very important mission of christ. That is anti-Christ
martian……..Amen to that post brother. They just seem unable to get it. They call others Gnostic's and they believe more like this Gnostic's believed then anyone else does. What conflicting statements , what false confusions, it just shows the ignorance that is in them, Brotherpeace and love to you and yours brother…………………….gene
Martian said:
Quote Christ as a God brings all he did, as an example, into question. There is no way of knowing if he did the things via his humanity or via his deity. With Christ as a God how can anyone know (without speculation) which of his natures overcame sin or rose from the dead or was one with God?
This is the essence of our difference isn't it? You are a Rationalist and I am a Presuppositionalist.Rationalism: The theory that all religious knowledge must be deduced from logic alone
Presuppositionalism: The theory that all religious knowledge must be deduced from scripture alone
I know that Christ is God and I know that He was really tempted. And I know that He really overcame. I know these things because God said so.
I fail to see how Christ as God brings His example into question. We discussed this last year and I told you that Christ as God become servant makes His example more meaningful. If His acts were performed as a mere servant, then He was just doing what He was supposed to do. But as God stooping down and becoming a servant His example has more command to it.
For example, I used to be in middle management and I often stooped down and worked with my underlings. I had much more clout with them then anyone in upper management had. Why? Because I did that which I was not required to do.
Your theory that Christ as God brings His example into question cannot be verified by human experience. A theory that cannot be verified by human experience must be discarded.
But human experience has verified that when a superior stoops down and becomes a servant himself his example has more command with people.
DEMONSTRATE YOUR THEORY OR DISCARD IT.
the Roo
Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 30 2010,05:48) Hi KJ,
Your ideas do not stand on scripture but on your suppositions.
Martian's ideas do not stand on scripture nor human experience.KJ
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