Preexistence

Participant

Quote (JustAskin @ June 19 2010,17:23)

WJ, what dies Scriptures say about 'adding or taking away a word from God's word'.

WJ, do you not fear God? Obviously not…even Satan fears God, and he is a Mighty God!

Its also interesting that you would say that satan is “a Mighty God” (capitol G) yet you can't even say Jesus is your “Mighy God”.

BTW, did you just add to the text by calling satan a “Mighty God”?

And you ask me if I fear God? HMMM?

June 21, 2010 at 3:38 pm#198942

Participant

Quote (karmarie @ June 21 2010,19:01)

Hi Martian, I agree with you that seeking a personal relationship with God is what is important and more important than seeking knowledge about God. Things are revealed the closer we become with God without the need to always read everything or search elsewhere.

The pre-existance of Jesus however is not something we can know for sure, the Bible does say The Word was with God in the beginning, then the Word became flesh. Jesus said “Now, Father, glorify me with your own self with the glory which I had with you before the world existed.

So if The Word was a Spiritual being alongside God the Father, and the World was created through Him, we shouldnt assume that this wasnt true without knowing for sure. Because its taking away what The pre-existant Word (In the flesh Jesus) created which we are a part of.

So I would rather assume what the Bible says is correct. It seems The Word was with God and was part of God as a Spirit being, then the Word was made flesh, in the man Jesus.

If the Word was Gods spoken word and thought, where is the proof of that? It doesnt make sense with how The Word (as you say a part of God, Gods mind word thought) manifested in Jesus spoke to God the Father, its like a Trinitarian saying Jesus as God was talking to himself, somehow.

Jesus being pre-existant doesnt make anything harder or give him any advantage at all. He is Lord and master, and an example for us. He came to give us life through death. So theres alot more to it than just that.

But what is important? Romans 10:9
“If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”

Let me deal with your points one at a time. —

“The pre-existance of Jesus however is not something we can know for sure, the Bible does say The Word was with God in the beginning, then the Word became flesh. Jesus said “Now, Father, glorify me with your own self with the glory which I had with you before the world existed.”

Reply –
Firstly you assume that the English translations are accurate to a point that these verses can be understood as they appear. It is abundantly clear throughout history that men (some with good intentions) have attempted to clarify/change scriptural translations in order to make particular doctrines stand out or to protect currently believed doctrines from disruption. I can give clear examples if you desire.

“So if The Word was a Spiritual being alongside God the Father, and the World was created through Him, we shouldnt assume that this wasnt true without knowing for sure. Because its taking away what The pre-existant Word (In the flesh Jesus) created which we are a part of.”

Reply –
Again this is if your interpretation or the interpretation of the translator are accurate. Those truths can always be in question.

“So I would rather assume what the Bible says is correct. It seems The Word was with God and was part of God as a Spirit being, then the Word was made flesh, in the man Jesus. “

“If the Word was Gods spoken word and thought, where is the proof of that? It doesnt make sense with how The Word (as you say a part of God, Gods mind word thought) manifested in Jesus spoke to God the Father, its like a Trinitarian saying Jesus as God was talking to himself, somehow.”

Reply –
The proof is in the word itself. The term “word” is used over 350 times in the NT and in all but a half a dozen Trinitarian and oneness translate it to be a statement speech and idea. Every Bible dictionary I have ever seen says it’s primary meaning to be that. Yet in this one sequence some translate it to be literally Jesus with no proof from the words themselves. The only proof is based on a doctrine they attempting to prove.
The word is the blueprint and Jesus is the building built from it. The blueprint was with God from the beginning and represented God’s character and intent.

“Jesus being pre-existant doesnt make anything harder or give him any advantage at all.”

Reply –
How do you know this? What happened to the memories and experiences of Christ in his prior life? If he created the world what happened to those memories? Did Christ know of his preexistence? Let me ask you – If you had existed in Heaven in communion with God for perhaps thousands of years prior to being born on Earth, and you at some time in your life on Earth remembered that life, Would you find it easier to walk in a way that would get you back there? Would that not be an advantage? With a preexistence Christ you have two choices
1.God erased the memories or killed the persona that was Christ in heaven in order to have a new Christ born of Mary.
2.Christ at some point in his Earthly life was well aware of his prior life in heaven which gave him a trememdous advantage over humanity. This of course would deny our ability to walk with God as he did or use him as our perfect and exact example.

AS you say this is doctrine and what is important is to be saved, however it is not enough to just be saved. One must endeavor to know the heart and character of God in order to become like him. For this we were given that perfect example of a normal Human son of God.

June 21, 2010 at 4:12 pm#198945

GeneBalthrop

Participant

martian………Exactly , Jesus did (NOT) exist as a Person before his Berth , He was only in the plan and will of God for all of Humanity, the one spoken of as the seed of the women, in Genesis , He was the (FIRST) from the Human race to reach perfection, a Perfect example to all of Us Human beings as He himself was (EXACTLY) in every way one of US. The false teaching of the preexistent Jesus only moves His (exact) Identity away from Us, giving him superior advantage over us, and how could He expect us to overcome (EVEN AS HE HAS) when we would be existing without his advantage. GOD'S plan was and is to save man kind and Jesus was the (FIRST) From mankind to achieve that goal. He was no more foreordained in the plan of GOD then Cyrus or Jeremiah was. IMO

peace and love to you and yours martian…………………………gene

June 21, 2010 at 5:06 pm#198946

Participant

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 20 2010,06:13)

Good, then when Isaiah the prophet calls Jesus the “Mighty God” (El Gabor) then you believe that he is “The Mighty God” don't you?

So again, is he your “Mighty God” or will you continue with your selective process of interpreting the scriptures?

Quote (t8 @ June 19 2010,20:05)

Yeah no problem with that.

God is the one true God and he sent Jesus.

No problem with what?

I have never heard you say with your lips “Jesus is my Mighty God”, and I have been here almost four years.

Quote (t8 @ June 19 2010,20:05)

How does this following truth agree with the above truth?

Isaiah 9:6
For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.”'

First off, we know that this is Jesus and we both agree that he is not the Father, so we have to assume that Mighty God is not necessarily the Almighty God either.

No t8, actually contextually you would have to assume that Jesus is the Almighty God unless Isaiah had some sort of memory lapse, for in chapter 10:21 Isaiah writes…

And it shall come to pass in that day, that the remnant of Israel, and such as are escaped of the house of Jacob, shall no more again stay upon him that smote them; but shall stay upon the “LORD, (YHWH)”the Holy One of Israel, in truth. “The remnant shall return, even the remnant of Jacob, unto THE MIGHTY GOD”. Isa 10:20, 21

So we see that the Mighty God here is “YHWH”. If that isn’t enough lets look at the other 2 times “El Gibbowr” is mentioned.

Thou shewest lovingkindness unto thousands, and recompensest the iniquity of the fathers into the bosom of their children after them: the Great, The “MIGHTY GOD, (El Gibbowr”) the LORD of hosts, is his name, Jer 32:17

Art thou not from everlasting, O LORD my God, mine Holy One? we shall not die. O LORD, thou hast ordained them for judgment; and, O MIGHTY GOD (El Gibbowr)”, thou hast established them for correction. Hab 1:12

But you want us to believe that Isaiah is saying that “Mighty God” in Isaiah 9:6 somehow is meaning that the one spoken of is a lesser God.

Your interpretation would also fly in the prophet Isaiah’s face because it is Isaiah that over and over claims that YHWH alone is God and there is no other.

“You alone, Lord, are God.” Isaiah 37:20

“Before Me there was no God formed, And there will be none after Me.” Isaiah 43:10

“I am the first and I am the last, And there is no God besides Me.” Isaiah 44:6

“Is there any God besides Me, Or is there any other Rock? I know of none.” Isaiah 44:8

“I am Yahweh, and there is no other; Besides Me there is no God.” Isaiah 45:5

“Surely, God is with you, and there is none else, No other God.” Isaiah 45:14

“I am Yahweh, and there is none else.” Isaiah 45:18

“Is it not I, Yahweh? And there is no other God besides Me, A righteous God and a Savior; There is none except Me.” Isaiah 45:21

“I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is no one like Me” Isaiah 46:9
……………………………………….Thank you for this list Paul, (Isa 1:18)!

Quote (t8 @ June 19 2010,20:05)

The word Father that is used here is “Ab” and this word is the same word that is used when describing Abraham as our Father and this scripture is just a reference to say that Jesus is our Everlasting Father, in other words he is greater than Abraham, but it certainly doesn't say 'Heavenly Father'.

Agreed, but we do know that Jesus is “Heavenly” don’t we? The contention is not that Jesus is the “Heavenly Father” for the word “Heavenly” is not in the text as you say, but the contention is that Jesus is the “Mighty God” spoken of in Isa 9:6, and 10:21 and if the term “Mighty God” (El Gibbowr) in the scriptures means “a lesser god” than YHWH as you assert!

Quote (t8 @ June 19 2010,20:05)

Now for the second point which is your focus.

Jesus is called “Mighty God”. The word in the Hebrew used here is “El” and this word means the following:

1) god, godlike one, mighty one
1a) mighty men, men of rank, mighty heroes
1b) angels
1c) god, false god, (demons, imaginations)
1d) God, the one true God, Jehovah
2) mighty things in nature
3) strength, power

“So Jesus is the Mighty El and this can be interpreted to mean that Jesus is the 'Mighty God Like One' or 'mighty in strength and power' and this is consistent with the overwhelming amount of scriptures that clearly teach that there is one God the Father.

This is double talk t8, for you say the scriptures “clearly teach that there is one God the Father” yet you say… “So Jesus is the Mighty El”, (God).

You simply make the word of God of none effect. Isaiah is not saying that “Mighty God” is a “god like one” for in the next chapter he says…

“The remnant shall return, even the remnant of Jacob, unto THE MIGHTY GOD”. Isa 10:21

Contextually this is YHWH.

Quote (t8 @ June 19 2010,20:05)

This interpretation is also in total agreement with the fact that, Jesus is the Image of God, and it must also be stressed that Isaiah 9:6 doesn't say “Almighty God”. (The term Almighty means that there is no one mightier, yet we both know that the Father is mightier than all). The term “Mighty God” in Hebrew is ´El Gib•bohr´ and the term “God Almighty” is translated from the Hebrew words 'El Shad•dai' which applies uniquely to YHWH.

Isaiah 10:21 and the other 3 times (El Gibbowr) Mighty God is mentioned also applies uniquely to YHWH.

There are several exegetical problems you have with your assumption t8. Not to mention that Isaiah in the same breath mentions YHWH as being the “Mighty God”, but also the fact that there is no other being found to be called “Mighty God” in the Hebrew scriptures other than YHWH!

Not only that, the burden of proof is on you to prove that somehow Isaiah was implying the definition of a lesser “god” to Isaiah 9:6 when in fact he specifically speaks agains
t there being any other Gods.

Quote (t8 @ June 19 2010,20:05)

When a man believes that there is one God the Father as Paul did, then he is not confused about the one God and who Jesus is.

When a man believes that the word “God” is exclusive to the Father then he has to deny many passages that say Jesus is God (John 1:1 – Heb 1:8), Mighty God (Isa 9:6 – Isa 10:21), Almighty (Rev 1:8), just to mention a few.

You say Jesus is a “mighty God” but Paul says “So then, about eating food sacrificed to idols: We know that an idol is nothing at all in the world and that “THERE IS NO GOD BUT ONE. I Cor 8:4

How do you reconcile this t8? Both Isaiah and Paul say there are no other “gods” (el, elohim, theos) but one. Yet we know they call Jesus “Mighty God” or “God”. This cannot be reconciled unless you see them as “One God”. That’s right Jesus did say that he and the Father was One, and that is why they wanted to kill him, because he made himself equal to the Father!

June 21, 2010 at 7:12 pm#198960

NickHassan

Participant

Hi WJ,
You would not be so confused if you were one Spirit with the author of 1 Cor 8.
It is not about theory but knowing God and His Son

June 21, 2010 at 10:00 pm#198980

Participant

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 22 2010,04:06)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 20 2010,06:13)

Good, then when Isaiah the prophet calls Jesus the “Mighty God” (El Gabor) then you believe that he is “The Mighty God” don't you?

So again, is he your “Mighty God” or will you continue with your selective process of interpreting the scriptures?

Quote (t8 @ June 19 2010,20:05)

Yeah no problem with that.

God is the one true God and he sent Jesus.

No problem with what?

I have never heard you say with your lips “Jesus is my Mighty God”, and I have been here almost four years.

Quote (t8 @ June 19 2010,20:05)

How does this following truth agree with the above truth?

First off, we know that this is Jesus and we both agree that he is not the Father, so we have to assume that Mighty God is not necessarily the Almighty God either.

No t8, actually contextually you would have to assume that Jesus is the Almighty God unless Isaiah had some sort of memory lapse, for in chapter 10:21 Isaiah writes…

So we see that the Mighty God here is “YHWH”. If that isn’t enough lets look at the other 2 times “El Gibbowr” is mentioned.

But you want us to believe that Isaiah is saying that “Mighty God” in Isaiah 9:6 somehow is meaning that the one spoken of is a lesser God.

Your interpretation would also fly in the prophet Isaiah’s face because it is Isaiah that over and over claims that YHWH alone is God and there is no other.

“You alone, Lord, are God.” Isaiah 37:20

“Before Me there was no God formed, And there will be none after Me.” Isaiah 43:10

“I am the first and I am the last, And there is no God besides Me.” Isaiah 44:6

“Is there any God besides Me, Or is there any other Rock? I know of none.” Isaiah 44:8

“I am Yahweh, and there is no other; Besides Me there is no God.” Isaiah 45:5

“Surely, God is with you, and there is none else, No other God.” Isaiah 45:14

“I am Yahweh, and there is none else.” Isaiah 45:18

“Is it not I, Yahweh? And there is no other God besides Me, A righteous God and a Savior; There is none except Me.” Isaiah 45:21

“I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is no one like Me” Isaiah 46:9
……………………………………….Thank you for this list Paul, (Isa 1:18)!

Quote (t8 @ June 19 2010,20:05)

Now for the second point which is your focus.

Jesus is called “Mighty God”. The word in the Hebrew used here is “El” and this word means the following:

This is double talk t8, for you say the scriptures “clearly teach that there is one God the Father” yet you say… “So Jesus is the Mighty El”, (God).

You simply make the word of God of none effect. Isaiah is not saying that “Mighty God” is a “god like one” for in the next chapter he says…

“The remnant shall return, even the remnant of Jacob, unto THE MIGHTY GOD”. Isa 10:21

Contextually this is YHWH.

Quote (t8 @ June 19 2010,20:05)

Isaiah 10:21 and the other 3 times (El Gibbowr) Mighty God is mentioned also applies uniquely to YHWH.

Quote (t8 @ June 19 2010,20:05)

When a man believes that there is one God the Father as Paul did, then he is not confused about the one God and who Jesus is.

WJ,
I am saddened to see you have gone down hill so badly since you joined the forum. It used to be you were a sticker on using the actual meanings of words from the original languages.
Isa 9:6 You replace “name” with “identity” It cannot be done within the Hebrew. The term name or Shem in Hebrew means character or reputation. This verse is not identifying Christ as the mighty God it is simply pointing out that Christ will have the character of the mighty God ect.
I am going to assume you have forgotten this, although I have posted it several times. My only other conclusion is that you are purposely deceptive in your interpretation.
Now you look it up in a Hebrew Lexicon and prove me wrong.

June 21, 2010 at 10:12 pm#198985

Participant

Quote (martian @ June 21 2010,17:00)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 22 2010,04:06)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 20 2010,06:13)

Good, then when Isaiah the prophet calls Jesus the “Mighty God” (El Gabor) then you believe that he is “The Mighty God” don't you?

So again, is he your “Mighty God” or will you continue with your selective process of interpreting the scriptures?

Quote (t8 @ June 19 2010,20:05)

Yeah no problem with that.

God is the one true God and he sent Jesus.

No problem with what?

I have never heard you say with your lips “Jesus is my Mighty God”, and I have been here almost four years.

Quote (t8 @ June 19 2010,20:05)

How does this following truth agree with the above truth?

First off, we know that this is Jesus and we both agree that he is not the Father, so we have to assume that Mighty God is not necessarily the Almighty God either.

No t8, actually contextually you would have to assume that Jesus is the Almighty God unless Isaiah had some sort of memory lapse, for in chapter 10:21 Isaiah writes…

So we see that the Mighty God here is “YHWH”. If that isn’t enough lets look at the other 2 times “El Gibbowr” is mentioned.

But you want us to believe that Isaiah is saying that “Mighty God” in Isaiah 9:6 somehow is meaning that the one spoken of is a lesser God.

Your interpretation would also fly in the prophet Isaiah’s face because it is Isaiah that over and over claims that YHWH alone is God and there is no other.

“You alone, Lord, are God.” Isaiah 37:20

“Before Me there was no God formed, And there will be none after Me.” Isaiah 43:10

“I am the first and I am the last, And there is no God besides Me.” Isaiah 44:6

“Is there any God besides Me, Or is there any other Rock? I know of none.” Isaiah 44:8

“I am Yahweh, and there is no other; Besides Me there is no God.” Isaiah 45:5

“Surely, God is with you, and there is none else, No other God.” Isaiah 45:14

“I am Yahweh, and there is none else.” Isaiah 45:18

“Is it not I, Yahweh? And there is no other God besides Me, A righteous God and a Savior; There is none except Me.” Isaiah 45:21

“I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is no one like Me” Isaiah 46:9
……………………………………….Thank you for this list Paul, (Isa 1:18)!

Quote (t8 @ June 19 2010,20:05)

Now for the second point which is your focus.

Jesus is called “Mighty God”. The word in the Hebrew used here is “El” and this word means the following:

This is double talk t8, for you say the scriptures “clearly teach that there is one God the Father” yet you say… “So Jesus is the Mighty El”, (God).

You simply make the word of God of none effect. Isaiah is not saying that “Mighty God” is a “god like one” for in the next chapter he says…

“The remnant shall return, even the remnant of Jacob, unto THE MIGHTY GOD”. Isa 10:21

Contextually this is YHWH.

Quote (t8 @ June 19 2010,20:05)

Isaiah 10:21 and the other 3 times (El Gibbowr) Mighty God is mentioned also applies uniquely to YHWH.

There are several exe
getical problems you have with your assumption t8. Not to mention that Isaiah in the same breath mentions YHWH as being the “Mighty God”, but also the fact that there is no other being found to be called “Mighty God” in the Hebrew scriptures other than YHWH!

Quote (t8 @ June 19 2010,20:05)

When a man believes that there is one God the Father as Paul did, then he is not confused about the one God and who Jesus is.

Martian

Your ad hominems mean nothing to me.

The Hebrew structure of Isa 9:6 is exactly the same as Isa 10:21, which is speaking of YWHW, so you are creating another smokescreen because the same title “Mighty God” is the same in the four verses mentioned.

Try again!

June 21, 2010 at 10:26 pm#198990

Participant

WJ,
You ability to lack wisdom and understanding…'is extra-ordinary' (Emperor Han to Bruce Lee, Enter the Dragon)

“Mighty God” is not 'God Almighty'. That is what you want to believe so that you can say that Jesus is God… Ha! If Jesus is God, why the need to make a special statement to say that 'ONLY ONCE'.

Never the less, You know full well that someone who IS 'The Mighty God' and someone who 'Will Be called' 'Mighty God' are not the same person nor means one will become the other.

A Son cannot becomea Father, no matter what, until he himself acquires a Son to himself.

A God does not 'become'…A God 'IS'.

God does not change, God cannot change… If God could change then He would not be God. If God changes, to what could He change? Only into something LESS than what He IS, and anything LESS than GOD cannot be God.

WJ… Where are yoy going to, and from where did you come from?

June 21, 2010 at 10:33 pm#198991

NickHassan

Participant

Hi WJ,
When you know God and His son it will get easier for you.

June 21, 2010 at 10:42 pm#198994

Participant

Quote (JustAskin @ June 21 2010,17:26)

Never the less, You know full well that someone who IS 'The Mighty God' and someone who 'Will Be called' 'Mighty God' are not the same person nor means one will become the other.

You mean like satan is called “Mighty God”?

There is no difference in one BEING the Mighty God and the one who has the name Mighty God in Isa 9:6 and 10:21.

Isaiah must have been an idiot according to your logic.

Show me where any being at all is prophesied to be called “Mighty God” other than Jesus.

Show me an example of any other being having the “name” or title “Mighty God”.

Jesus is the Mighty God and you don't like that, ha.

Since it is a name, then why do you not call him by that name? Why do you not say he is the Mighty God? Why do you not say he is my “Mighty God”?

Is having the name meaningless?

Now go ahead with more of your imature and weak ad hominems!

June 21, 2010 at 10:54 pm#198995

Ed J

Participant

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 22 2010,09:12)

Martian

Your ad hominems mean nothing to me.

The Hebrew structure of Isa 9:6 is exactly the same as Isa 10:21, which is speaking of YWHW, so you are creating another smokescreen because the same title “Mighty God” is the same in the four verses mentioned.

Try again!

Hi WJ,

Are you so confused about God that you do NOT even know his name?
[יהוה] translates into English as “YHVH”! (Psalm 45:17)

Psalm 45:17 I will make thy name (Hă-shəm) to be remembered in all generations:
therefore shall the people praise thee (YHVH) for ever and ever.

Witnessing to the world in behalf of YHVH (Psalm 45:17)
117=יהוה האלהים(JEHOVAH GOD) YÄ-hä-vā hä ĔL-ō-Hêêm!
Ed J (AKJV Joshua 22:34 / Isaiah 60:13-15)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

June 21, 2010 at 11:16 pm#198998

Participant

WJ,

You are a Satan… You desire is try and cause me to sin.

You are not a good person.

You have fallen from an ignorant false believer, a trinitarian, down even more, to that of outright opposer.

You have repeatedly failed against me with your false belief, so much so that your ownly resort is to try and get me to trip myself up.

Why, WJ? If what you believe is true, if you are of God, if God is with you, if you speak truth, WJ, why does nothing prevail with you? Why does most of what you say prove to be false and yet for over x years you have been in this forum and I hear things that you do outside the forum which supposedly putss you in a higher position, one of a leader, a shepherd, a teacher…but you are blind…a blind leader, shepherd and an ignorant teacher… Not very good qualifications, eh?

WJ, what have you learnt over the years…'spiritually'?nothing… Why?….because Trinity only teaches you how to lie, how to cover up for it's deceit.

It is using you, and making you 'successful' for it's own purpose, like the 'Ring' in 'Lord of the Rings'…
WJ, take it off, and you will see the plain Wor[l]d of God, truth.
Take it off, WJ, and free yourself from its power and rule over you.

WJ, pray to Go Almighty, through the spirit man, Jesus Christ, the one and only one who is the mediator between God Almighty and Mankind, having known firsthand the weakness of flesh and also the power of spirit, and therefore can empathise with man and yet be authorative in spirit.

June 21, 2010 at 11:25 pm#199000

Participant

WJ,

Every single trinity point had been refuted wholly.

Yet you continue the chirade. What holds you?

SHAME

And yet we love you enough to still try to lead you to truth. yet, even so, like a trapped and wounded wild beast, you tear into the flesh of the very ones who are trying to rescue you from your inevitable disaster.

Ok, tell us how we can help to rescue you?
Should we turn our backs to you and approach backwards to cover your shame like Noah's two good sons, while you lie naked in your trinitarian drunkenness?

Maybe you will think to strike us while our backs are turned, eh!?

June 21, 2010 at 11:32 pm#199005

Arnold

Participant

Quote (martian @ June 22 2010,02:38)

Quote (karmarie @ June 21 2010,19:01)

So I would rather assume what the Bible says is correct. It seems The Word was with God and was part of God as a Spirit being, then the Word was made flesh, in the man Jesus.

But what is important? Romans 10:9
“If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”

Let me deal with your points one at a time. —

Reply –
Again this is if your interpretation or the interpretation of the translator are accurate. Those truths can always be in question.

“So I would rather assume what the Bible says is correct. It seems The Word was with God and was part of God as a Spirit being, then the Word was made flesh, in the man Jesus. “

“Jesus being pre-existant doesnt make anything harder or give him any advantage at all.”

Martian! If there were only one Scripture that states that Jesus was the Word I could even understand that. However there is this Scripture also in Rev. 19:13 “He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is The Word of God and
verse 16 And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written:” KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.” We should all know that it is the Son of God Jesus Christ…. So your theory that it was mistranslated is B. We have several Scriptures that tell us that Jesus was with His Father, before the world was. Col. 1:15-17 the firstborn of all creation and in
Rev; 3:14 …These things says the Amen, the True and Faithful Witness, the beginning of the creation of God.”
John 6:38-40 “For I have come down from Heaven, not to do My will, but the will of Him that send me.” Read the rest…
This is what Jesus said and also in
John 17:5 He said this:” And now O Father glorify Me together with Yourself with the glory I had with You before the world was..” Now again, if it would only be one Scripture, then maybe you would have a case, but this way No way Sir…. Calling Jesus a liar is a hard thing to do…
That in essence what you are doing when you deny those Scriptures….. Plain and simple… and I have given you these before just like Gene you both are ignoring these same Scriptures given over and over again….. not to wise to do…..Also question who is us and our in Genesis? It was Jesus by the power of God's Holy Spirit that He created all. He is also the firstborn of the dead so that in all He may have preeminence…..Col 1:18…meaning He was first in all…..
When I read that you think that an ordinary man could not sin, you re totally wrong….. Scriptures say that all have fallen short of the glory of God…. So that means all Human Beings….. And if Jesus would have been just a mere man He too would have sinned. However God had to send someone like Jesus who knew what was at stake and did not sin…..There is no Scriptures that tell me that Jesus had to be a mere man to qualify to die for us….
He was Human in every other way. He hurt just like us in every way. But His mind was not like us…. He was not a mere man. He was the Son of God, for pete's sake…..
also check out
John 1:15, 8:58, 3:17 all related to Jesus……. Irene

June 21, 2010 at 11:38 pm#199009

Participant

Wj,
Why are you such a laughable character, caracature of a jester?

You and KJ are always trying this, 'is he YOUR xxxx'

What on earth or in Heaven does, 'Is he Your ''Mighty God''' supposed to mean?

The Scriptures says 'He WILL be called Mighty God', it doesn't say, 'You will call him THE Mighty God'', nor does it say, 'He will become The Mighty God'.

I notice that you didn't comment on my explanation that 'Mighty God' and 'The Mighty God' are not the same things, nor on my points concerning thr FACT that God 'becoming' anything other than God means He cannot be God… Pretty fundamental it seems to me!

June 21, 2010 at 11:47 pm#199013

Arnold

Participant

Quote (JustAskin @ June 22 2010,10:25)

WJ,

Every single trinity point had been refuted wholly.

Yet you continue the chirade. What holds you?

SHAME

Ok, tell us how we can help to rescue you?
Should we turn our backs to you and approach backwards to cover your shame like Noah's two good sons, while you lie naked in your trinitarian drunkenness?

Maybe you will think to strike us while our backs are turned, eh!?

Just Askin!!!! There is a Scriptures that says this in
Math. 15:9 And in vain they do worship Me, teaching us doctrines commandments of men.” That is what the trinity is a man made doctrine and not of God… It was Quintus Septimius Florence Tertullian who first came up with it…. He was born to Pagan Parents in A.D. 155 and it is said that the doctrine of the trinity is His best achievement to Christianty….and look around you most Churches do teach that….Also in order to make the trinity true to them they believe that Jesus always existed and not that He had a beginning like Scriptures say……my post to Martian has all the Scriptures to show how wrong that is….Irene

June 22, 2010 at 12:54 am#199029

Participant

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 22 2010,09:12)

Quote (martian @ June 21 2010,17:00)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 22 2010,04:06)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 20 2010,06:13)

Good, then when Isaiah the prophet calls Jesus the “Mighty God” (El Gabor) then you believe that he is “The Mighty God” don't you?

So again, is he your “Mighty God” or will you continue with your selective process of interpreting the scriptures?

Quote (t8 @ June 19 2010,20:05)

Yeah no problem with that.

God is the one true God and he sent Jesus.

No problem with what?

I have never heard you say with your lips “Jesus is my Mighty God”, and I have been here almost four years.

Quote (t8 @ June 19 2010,20:05)

How does this following truth agree with the above truth?

First off, we know that this is Jesus and we both agree that he is not the Father, so we have to assume that Mighty God is not necessarily the Almighty God either.

No t8, actually contextually you would have to assume that Jesus is the Almighty God unless Isaiah had some sort of memory lapse, for in chapter 10:21 Isaiah writes…

So we see that the Mighty God here is “YHWH”. If that isn’t enough lets look at the other 2 times “El Gibbowr” is mentioned.

But you want us to believe that Isaiah is saying that “Mighty God” in Isaiah 9:6 somehow is meaning that the one spoken of is a lesser God.

Your interpretation would also fly in the prophet Isaiah’s face because it is Isaiah that over and over claims that YHWH alone is God and there is no other.

“You alone, Lord, are God.” Isaiah 37:20

“Before Me there was no God formed, And there will be none after Me.” Isaiah 43:10

“I am the first and I am the last, And there is no God besides Me.” Isaiah 44:6

“Is there any God besides Me, Or is there any other Rock? I know of none.” Isaiah 44:8

“I am Yahweh, and there is no other; Besides Me there is no God.” Isaiah 45:5

“Surely, God is with you, and there is none else, No other God.” Isaiah 45:14

“I am Yahweh, and there is none else.” Isaiah 45:18

“Is it not I, Yahweh? And there is no other God besides Me, A righteous God and a Savior; There is none except Me.” Isaiah 45:21

“I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is no one like Me” Isaiah 46:9
……………………………………….Thank you for this list Paul, (Isa 1:18)!

Quote (t8 @ June 19 2010,20:05)

Now for the second point which is your focus.

Jesus is called “Mighty God”. The word in the Hebrew used here is “El” and this word means the following:

This is double talk t8, for you say the scriptures “clearly teach that there is one God the Father” yet you say… “So Jesus is the Mighty El”, (God).

You simply make the word of God of none effect. Isaiah is not saying that “Mighty God” is a “god like one” for in the next chapter he says…

“The remnant shall return, even the remnant of Jacob, unto THE MIGHTY GOD”. Isa 10:21

Contextually this is YHWH.

Quote (t8 @ June 19 2010,20:05)

Isaiah 10:21 and the other 3 times (El Gibbowr) Mighty God is mentioned also applies uniquely to YHWH.

Quote (t8 @ June 19 2010,20:05)

When a man believes that there is one God the Father as Paul did, then he is not confused about the one God and who Jesus is.

Martian

Your ad hominems mean nothing to me.

Try again!

I made it easy for you. I ask you to look the word up. I gather sense you will not admit the real meaning of the word that you are purposely and willingly deceived.

June 22, 2010 at 12:55 am#199030

karmarie

Participant

Hi Martian thanks for your reply, one point..

Quote

“Jesus being pre-existant doesnt make anything harder or give him any advantage at all.”

Quote

Reply –
How do you know this? What happened to the memories and experiences of Christ in his prior life? If he created the world what happened to those memories? Did Christ know of his preexistence? Let me ask you – If you had existed in Heaven in communion with God for perhaps thousands of years prior to being born on Earth, and you at some time in your life on Earth remembered that life, Would you find it easier to walk in a way that would get you back there? Would that not be an advantage? With a preexistence Christ you have two choices
1. God erased the memories or killed the persona that was Christ in heaven in order to have a new Christ born of Mary.
2. Christ at some point in his Earthly life was well aware of his prior life in heaven which gave him a trememdous advantage over humanity. This of course would deny our ability to walk with God as he did or use him as our perfect and exact example.

I have read parts of Origen, He was called a Saint or Early Church Father but was later considered a heretic, however He explained pre-existance. (He also believed all of us pre-existed and we are here, minus the memory of our pre-existance, to learn lessons or something) but pre-existance of Jesus alone, God can do anything. A Spirit became a Man.The first was from the Earth, the second was from above. So we also could become as He was. The penalty of sin was death, the gift to those who overcome through Jesus is eternal life.

For God so loved the world that He gave His only Begotten Son so whosoever believes in Him shall not perish but shall have eternal life.

The bible makes it clear through Him all things were created.

June 22, 2010 at 1:02 am#199031

NickHassan

Participant

Hi KM,
Speculations are always more popular than truth.

June 22, 2010 at 1:03 am#199032