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Hi Is 1.18,
The whole counsel of God does not Say Jesus is the God of the Jews.
He said His father is that God[jn8.54]Quote (t8 @ June 18 2010,12:47) Basic stuff, but I need to remind some of these truths. God is the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Jesus is the son of God.
Jesus is the messiah and was sent by God.
God is a Spirit.
Jesus has a spirit.
Each of us have a spirit.We are one in spirit.
Throw the Trinity away. It is a useless theory that needs many assumptions before it even looks like it is standing. Even then, you could take any one of hundreds of scriptures and it falls down.
No point in trying to prop up something that has no true foundation.
T8………. Amen, Now that is the truth brother.peace and love to you and yours……………….gene
Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ June 18 2010,11:51) Yes Arain presupposition is based in the selective use of scripture. Kangaroo Jack
Yet the fact remains, you have to ignore these 100 scriptures whereas a person who believes that there is one God the Father can embrace them. Of course even the so-called few Trinitarian verses when read properly do not teach a Trinity at all.Conclusion, if you believe in one God the Father, you win. If you do not, you lose. It is after all the first commandment to believe that there is one God and it is advisable to know who that God is.
Matthew 27:46
Mark 1:24
Mark 10:18
Mark 15:34
Mark 16:19
Luke 2:52
Luke 6:12
Luke 18:19
John 3:2
John 8:42
John 8:54
John 9:3
John 13:31
John 14:1*
John 17:3
John 20:17
Acts 2:22
Acts 2:32
Acts 2:36
Acts 3:13
Acts 4:10
Acts 5:30
Acts 7:55
Acts 10:36
Acts 10:38
Acts 13:23
Acts 20:21
Romans 1:7
Romans 1:8
Romans 2:16
Romans 3:22
Romans 4:24
Romans 5:1
Romans 5:11
Romans 5:15
Romans 5:17
Romans 6:23
Romans 7:25
Romans 8:34
Romans 10:9
Romans 15:5
Romans 15:6
Romans 16:27
1 Corinthians 1:3
1 Corinthians 1:9
1 Corinthians 1:30
1 Corinthians 8:6
1 Corinthians 15:57
2 Corinthians 1:2
2 Corinthians 1:3
2 Corinthians 11:31
2 Corinthians 13:14
Galatians 1:1
Galatians 1:3
Ephesians 1:2
Ephesians 1:3
Ephesians 1:17
Ephesians 2:6
Ephesians 6:23
Philippians 1:2
Philippians 2:11
Colossians 1:3*
Colossians 3:17
1 Thessalonians 1:1
1 Thessalonians 1:3
1 Thessalonians 3:11
1 Thessalonians 3:13
1 Thessalonians 4:14
1 Thessalonians 5:9
2 Thessalonians 1:1
2 Thessalonians 1:2
2 Thessalonians 1:12
2 Thessalonians 2:16
1 Timothy 1:1
1 Timothy 1:2
1 Timothy 2:5
1 Timothy 5:21
1 Timothy 6:3
2 Timothy 1:1
2 Timothy 1:2
2 Timothy 4:1
Titus 1:4
Titus 2:13
Philemon 1:3
Hebrews 13:20
James 1:1
1 Peter 1:2
1 Peter 2:5
2 Peter 1:1
2 Peter 1:2
1 John 5:1*
1 John 5:20
2 John 1:3
Jude 1:1
Jude 1:4
Jude 1:21
Jude 1:25
Revelation 1:1
Revelation 1:2
Revelation 14:12Isa 1:18……….If you were to go back to the origins of your believes in the trinity perhaps you could see where you may have over looked and accepted some unsubstantiated teachings that somehow caused you to hold on to this teaching. But when you put everything out there in plain site as written without conjecture or forcing the text, it should become obvious that the Trinity is a false teaching. IMO
peace and love to you and yours……………………………gene
Quote (t8 @ June 18 2010,12:37) I don't need to cherry pick. When a man believes that there is one God the Father, then no verse in scripture contradicts. When a man believes that there is one God the Father, Son, Spirit, then many contradictions are created and ignoring such verses and intellectualising your doctrine is the only way to make it look respectable to the unsuspecting.
You have no trouble with the verses that emphasise Yeshua's humanity, that's true. But the verses that speak of His deity? You have a lot of trouble explaining them away. That's my observation.Quote Your doctrine contradicts these 100 verses for a start: https://heavennet.net/writings/trinity-11.htm
It boils down to whether a man loves his ego more than the truth.
However, even if the ego wins, the truth will always win in the end.Amen to that.
I addressed what I assume to be the best four of them in the debate forum (https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin/forum/ikonboard.cgi?act=SF;f=22), and many others in various threads.Quote Fighting the truth is a hard road. Nothing aligns for a person who tried to sell a lie as truth. In the end, they need the support of doctrines that are not found in scripture.
Like henotheism?Quote (Is 1:18 @ June 18 2010,13:10) You have no trouble with the verses that emphasise Yeshua's humanity, that's true. But the verses that speak of His deity? You have a lot of trouble explaining them away. That's my observation.
Are you kidding?From the beginning of this forum I have always held that Jesus existed in the FORM of God.
That he was a divine being, but not the Divine himself. I have used references like God is Spirit and there is one Spirit, yet angels are spirits in support of my understanding that beings can be made of that which God is. After all, the Father is the Father of spirits.I will clarify for your sake.
Jesus existed in the FORM of God, (not as God himself).
He emptied himself and then existed in the form of man.
As a man, he was further humbled by persecution and was crucified for our sins.
He rose from the dead and was taken up to the right hand of God to the glory that he had with the Father before the creation of the world.I have no problem with Jesus divine nature after all, I have argued that redeemed humans can partake of divine nature, so how much more Yeshua?
Please understand this before arguing with me. Perhaps this mis-understanding of yours helps explain your attacks against my teachings. Maybe, maybe not?
I have no problem with any scripture. No scripture contradicts that the only true God is the Father and he sent Jesus.
It is a hard road fighting the truth. It is even harder than fighting gravity.
Quote (Is 1:18 @ June 18 2010,13:10) Like henotheism?
You are a confessed Trinitarian. So I call you one.I believe in one God the Father.
Yet, I admit that you can call me what you like because you are really saying it to Jesus.He is my big brother.
Quote (t8 @ June 18 2010,13:44) Quote (Is 1:18 @ June 18 2010,13:10) You have no trouble with the verses that emphasise Yeshua's humanity, that's true. But the verses that speak of His deity? You have a lot of trouble explaining them away. That's my observation.
Are you kidding?From the beginning of this forum I have always held that Jesus existed in the FORM of God.
That he was a divine being, but not the Divine himself. I have used references like God is Spirit and there is one Spirit, yet angels are spirits in support of my understanding that beings can be made of that which God is. After all, the Father is the Father of spirits.I will clarify for your sake.
Jesus existed in the FORM of God, (not as God himself).
He emptied himself and then existed in the form of man.
As a man, he was further humbled by persecution and was crucified for our sins.
He rose from the dead and was taken up to the right hand of God to the glory that he had with the Father before the creation of the world.I have no problem with Jesus divine nature after all, I have argued that redeemed humans can partake of divine nature, so how much more Yeshua?
Please understand this before arguing with me. Perhaps this mis-understanding of yours helps explain your attacks against my teachings. Maybe, maybe not?
I have no problem with any scripture. No scripture contradicts that the only true God is the Father and he sent Jesus.
It is a hard road fighting the truth. It is even harder than fighting gravity.
t8, you do understand that holding to more than one divine being is polytheism by definition, don't you. I know you do, but a reminder doesn't hurt. You like lists, here's one for you to digest, texts that affirm biblical monotheism:1. “there is no one like Yahweh our God.” Exodus 8:10
2. “Yahweh, He is God; there is no other besides Him.” Deuteronomy 4:35
3. “Yahweh, He is God in heaven above and on the earth below; there is no other.” Deuteronomy 4:39
4. “See now that I, I am He, And there is no god besides Me” Deuteronomy 32:39
5. “Hear, O Israel! Yahweh is our God, Yahweh is one!” Deuteronomy 6:4
6. “You are great, O Lord God; for there is none like You, and there is no God besides You” 2 Samuel 7:22
7. “For who is God, besides Yahweh? And who is a rock, besides our God?” 2 Samuel 22:32
8. “Yahweh is God; there is no one else.” 1 Kings 8:60
9. “You are the God, You alone, of all the kingdoms of the earth.” 2 Kings 19:15
10. “O Lord, there is none like You, nor is there any God besides You” 1 Chronicles 17:20
11. “For who is God, but Yahweh? And who is a rock, except our God” Psalm 18:31
12. “You alone, Lord, are God.” Isaiah 37:20
13. “Before Me there was no God formed, And there will be none after Me.” Isaiah 43:10
14. “‘I am the first and I am the last, And there is no God besides Me.” Isaiah 44:6
15. “Is there any God besides Me, Or is there any other Rock? I know of none.” Isaiah 44:8
16. “I am Yahweh, and there is no other; Besides Me there is no God.” Isaiah 45:5
17. “Surely, God is with you, and there is none else, No other God.” Isaiah 45:14
18. “I am Yahweh, and there is none else.” Isaiah 45:18
19. “Is it not I, Yahweh? And there is no other God besides Me, A righteous God and a Savior; There is none except Me.” Isaiah 45:21
20. “I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is no one like Me” Isaiah 46:9
21. “And Yahweh will be king over all the earth; in that day Yahweh will be the only one, and His name the only one.” Zechariah 14:9
22. “there is no God but one” 1 Corinthians 8:4
23. “Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God” 1 Timothy 1:17
24. “which He will bring about at the proper time—He who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords, who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see. To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen.” 1 Timothy 6:16
25. “You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder.” James 2:19
These passages make no allowance for your polytheistic theology. Pay particular attention to these three:
“O Lord, there is none like You, nor is there any God besides You” 1 Chronicles 17:20
There is no god besides YHWH
“Before Me there was no God formed, And there will be none after Me.” Isaiah 43:10
There is no god formed after YHWH
“I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is no one like Me” Isaiah 46:9
There is no god like YHWH
In fact t8, all other gods are “so-called” god, not real gods at all (1 Cor 8:5).
So your big God/little god theory needs reevaluation.
Hi Is 1.18,
Then why do offer Jesus as another deity?
God is one and there is no room for polytheism as you say.
The Spirit of Christ is of God and indwelled the Son and can also indwell you.Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 18 2010,14:17) Hi Is 1.18,
Then why do offer Jesus as another deity?
God is one and there is no room for polytheism as you say.
The Spirit of Christ is of God and indwelled the Son and can also indwell you.
I think this needs to be levelled at t8. Two divinities is his postulation.Quote (Is 1:18 @ June 18 2010,14:13) t8, you do understand that holding to more than one divine being is polytheism by definition, don't you. I know you do, but a reminder doesn't hurt. You like lists, here's one for you to digest, texts that affirm biblical monotheism:
What you fail to grasp is that to exist in the form of God and to be God is two different things. Your doctrine cannot understand this.There is one WHO is God.
There is one Spirit.Yet, there are others who are called theos for one reason or another. But that is not an infringement on the fact that there is one Theos.
Just as there is one Spirit. And it is equally true that angels are spirits, but the catch is, they are not the Spirit.
Not really hard to grasp, but by all means keep throwing names at me, because they are really being thrown at Jesus. The one who said, “ye are gods, you are all sons of the Most High”. The one who also said, “Believe in God, also believe in me”.
Amen and amen. It is an honour to be persecuted for his name's sake. For if they persecuted him, so they will persecute those of him.
I am confident that he who started a good work in me will complete it.
Quote (t8 @ June 18 2010,13:44) From the beginning of this forum I have always held that Jesus existed in the FORM of God.
That he was a divine being, but not the Divine himself.
I wonder how you reconcile your statements with these three passages:“O Lord, there is none like You, nor is there any God besides You” 1 Chronicles 17:20
“Before Me there was no God formed, And there will be none after Me.” Isaiah 43:10
“I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is no one like Me” Isaiah 46:9
How do you?
Quote (martian @ June 18 2010,09:13) Has anyone noticed that when I prove that WJ and Roo are misusing scripture they ignore it?
Please!Where?
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 19 2010,01:17) Quote (martian @ June 18 2010,09:13) Has anyone noticed that when I prove that WJ and Roo are misusing scripture they ignore it?
Please!Where?
Top of page 751 in response to KJQuote (JustAskin @ June 17 2010,17:33) WJ,
Noone is 'saved' until the judgement day.Even if they are of the promise, like the thief on the cross. He is not Saved until the judgement when he will judged and found guiltless and Then given eternal life in Paradise…not heaven like some think, even as Jesus told him.
What you say, how you speak, is like a parent, in ignorance of the truth, telling a child that they will go to heaven when they die and they will again see their pet Goldfish so don't be sad for it…. WJ, you are not advancing in knowledge but retarding…even more so that you try such transparent and flimsy arguments, nay, simpleton disputation with me. Are you on medication, like Nick?
JAYour unrighteous diatribe and ad hominems does not change the truth of Jesus words or the written scriptures.
“AND WHOEVER LIVES AND BELIEVES IN ME WILL NEVER DIE“. Do you believe this?” John 11:26
How about some more…
Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood “HAS ETERNAL LIFE“, and I will raise him up at the last day. John 6:54
And this is the record, “THAT GOD HATH GIVEN TO US ETERNAL LIFE”, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. 1 John 5:11, 12
Our Spirits have been born again by the Spirit and the word of God (John 1:3-6 – 1 Peter 1:23) and we have been translated into the Kingdom of his dear Son. (Col 1:13 – Lk 17:21) We have eaten of his flesh (word of God) and drank of his blood (the Spirit of God) and have eternal life and have the hope that when we put of this tabernacle (tent) called our bodies (which will be changed (1 Cor 15:51, 52 – Phil 3:21) that we forever will be changed and live with him!
For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; “BUT UNTO US WHICH ARE SAVED it is the power of God“. 1 Cor 1:18
Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (BY GRACE YE ARE SAVED;) Eph 2:5
For BY GRACE ARE YE SAVED THROUGH FAITH; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Eph 2:8
Quote (JustAskin @ June 17 2010,17:33) Even if they are of the promise, like the thief on the cross. He is not Saved until the judgement when he will judged and found guiltless and Then given eternal life in Paradise…not heaven like some think, even as Jesus told him.
Maybe that is your problem JA, you do not believe you are not saved!True believers have been saved and are born again Sons of God who have been washed by the Blood of the Lamb and their conscience has been cleansed by the Spirit and the Blood and have been translated into the Kingdom of Jesus!
True believers have “eternal life” and merely go to be with him when these tired ole bodies wear out!
WJ
Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 18 2010,14:17) Hi Is 1.18,
Then why do offer Jesus as another deity?
God is one and there is no room for polytheism as you say.
The Spirit of Christ is of God and indwelled the Son and can also indwell you.
Nick,Actually it was the inspired Paul who offers Jesus as deity though not “another” deity. Our Paul here gave Isaiah 44:8 inwhich YHWH said that He knows of no other “Rock.”
Is there any God besides Me, Or is there any other Rock? I know of none.” Isaiah 44:8
The inspired Paul said that Christ was the '”ROCK” that guided them (1 Cor. 10). Did the inspired Paul know something that YHWH didn't know? Our Paul here merely concurs with the inspired Paul and your argument is really with the latter.
KJ
Quote (Is 1:18 @ June 17 2010,22:31) Quote (t8 @ June 18 2010,13:44) From the beginning of this forum I have always held that Jesus existed in the FORM of God.
That he was a divine being, but not the Divine himself.
I wonder how you reconcile your statements with these three passages:“O Lord, there is none like You, nor is there any God besides You” 1 Chronicles 17:20
“Before Me there was no God formed, And there will be none after Me.” Isaiah 43:10
“I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is no one like Me” Isaiah 46:9
How do you?
Hi PaulExactly! They can't!
t8 like others engage in the pick and choose method when looking at the scritpures!
Or they make the scriptures of none effect when they say things like “We believe in only One True God, but we believe in other true gods!
Its laughable!
Blessings Keith
Quote (martian @ June 17 2010,19:33) I IN NO WAY IMPLIED TWO SAVIORS. GOD IS THE ONLY SAVIOR. He may except the sacrifice of Christ as payment for our redemption and save us for Christ sake.
Jesus paid a price acceptable to God and God saves us even as he saved Christ from death when he raised him from the dead.
MartianYou are contradicting yourself! You say that YHWH is the only Savour, yet you say that Jesus paid the price for our salvation.
In other words without Jesus paying the price for our salvation we would not be saved.
You might have a point if the scriptures did not say that Jesus IS our personal Savour and that “HE SAVED US WITH HIS OWN BLOOD”!
Live with your contradictions, for no mere man could pay the price to save us as the scritpures clearly teach!
Therefore Jesus is God!
WJ
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