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Quote (Is 1:18 @ June 18 2010,09:49) Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ June 18 2010,09:38) Keith, The “he” is not in the Greek. It is not “I am he” but “I am.” Jesus said,
“If you believe not that I AM you shall die in your sins.”
Correct. Even setting aside the implications of the unpredicated “I AM” statement, it's important to note that an inaccurate belief in Yeshua, the article of our fath, results in unforgiven sins being held against us, i.e salvation is predicated on us believing in the real Yeshua.The real Yeshua is the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
Almighty God.
Amen brother!Jack
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 18 2010,09:14) Quote (t8 @ June 17 2010,17:06) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 18 2010,05:42) Jesus said… I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for “if ye believe not that I am he”, ye shall die in your sins. John 8:24
I believe that he is the Christ and the son of God. Do you really believe that? Or do you give lip service to that and say that he is also the God that he is suppose to be the son of. And how do you explain that confusion?
t8Yes I believe that Jesus is the Christ the Son of the living God!
So did John and Thomas!
John said that he was the Word that was with God and was God, and that the Jews wanted to crucify him because he made himself “Equal to God” by claiming he was the Son of God!
Would you crucify him like the Jews for claiming he was “Equal to God”?
Thomas called him my Lord and God!
Paul said he was his “Great God and Savour” the one that that purified a people to himself!
Jude said he was his “Only Lord (Possesor) and Master the one that saved the children of Israel out of Egypt!
Do you believe this?
WJ
Yes, WJ, I have heard your logic many times and once I myself was brainwashed by the Trinity Doctrine, so I knew about it then too. But it is deceptive. It ignores the vast majority of scripture and views a few scriptures using the Trinity Template.For us there is one God the Father and for you there are 3 who are God. That is it in a nutshell.
There is us, and there are Trinitarians. If we take it that Paul wrote correctly.
Also, if you believe that there is one God the Father, then no scripture is difficult. When you say that 3 are God, then you have great difficultly and confusion, and that is why you often hear the last line of Trinitarian defence that says, “God is beyond our understanding”. However, that statement ignores that we are revealing God using scripture and scripture is not beyond understanding.
Nick,
Yes, if it helps to understand why that contributor contributes nonesense and pointless single line diatribe which holds no value nor attempt to explain either what the contribution is for nor what it means, indeed, sometimes, even what it relates to.
Now, if we were to know that you have a handicap then we can sympatise,empathise and realise an element of compensation on that contributors behalf. Make adjustments for them…so to speak. Is that not Godly, Nick?
But else, that contributor receives the weight of discourse…without measure.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 18 2010,09:58) Hi Is 1.18,
Our Lord.
But his God is our God.[Jn20]
Yes, Is 1.18.Listen to the voice of reason and truth.
God made Jesus Lord and Christ.
Who is God if he made Jesus Lord.
Did Jesus make himself Lord and Christ?
It is a hard road fighting the truth Is.
WJ………..The Doctrine of the TRINITY is un-scriptural , unprovable, unreasonable, unnecessary, untruthful, and unreliable, and un-understandable. What T8 said above is right WJ. Shake off the confusion and you can start to see straight brother. I know it is harder for you to do that WJ , because you have taught it so long in you life and many of your flock would take offense, but it is not a right teaching WJ.
peace and love………………..gene
Yes WJ. You would do well to repent of false doctrines. There is no godly reward in things that are not true.
Quote (JustAskin @ June 18 2010,10:18) WJ, Jesus did not claim to be God. The Jews SAID 'because you say you are the Son of God, you are 'implying' that you are therefore equal to God' But Jesus answered, 'WHAT OF IT if I say that I am the Son of God. Did 'He' (God himself) not call 'THEM' also, 'gods', them unto whom the Word of God came.'?
How on earth is this making claim that anyone is saying Jesus is God, when thd very one who is the unlying, fully truthfull, always righteous, God fearing, perfect Servant, he, himself says, 'No, i am the son of God by virtue of having the Word of God given to me, just as 'they (Moses, the prophets, Abraham, Noah, Isaac, Jacob, David, Solomon, others…) were, i am the Son of God and yet you rightly don't make claim that 'they' are also 'equal to God', do you?
WJ, would prefer to take any stance that backs his view. And if truth is a casualty, then so be it. That is how it appears to me.WJ,
Jesus did not claim to be God. The Jews SAID 'because you say you are the Son of God, you are 'implying' that you are therefore equal to God' But Jesus answered, 'WHAT OF IT if I say that I am the Son of God. Did 'He' (God himself) not call 'THEM' also, 'gods', them unto whom the Word of God came.'?
How on earth is this making claim that anyone is saying Jesus is God, when thd very one who is the unlying, fully truthfull, always righteous, God fearing, perfect Servant, he, himself says, 'No, i am the son of God by virtue of having the Word of God given to me, just as 'they (Moses, the prophets, Abraham, Noah, Isaac, Jacob, David, Solomon, others…) were, i am the Son of God and yet you rightly don't make claim that 'they' are also 'equal to God', do you?
Quote (JustAskin @ June 18 2010,09:19) WJ, Thomas asked Jesus to prove himself. Jesus' response does not credit Thomas for his exultation but, in fact, condemns him: 'For you believe because you have seen [and touched]. BLESSED are those who have not seen and yet believe'. Thomas was NOT blessed for his realisation.
Thomas looked at Christ and saw his human Lord and Master and saw dwelling in him YHWH. Lord And God. This is no uncommon act. Everyone who claims to be a Christian should manifest their God. God should be revealed through us. We are to be filled with all the fullness of God and to the stature of Jesus Christ. If He is God that commandment makes no sense at all.Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ June 18 2010,04:13) Martian said to WJ: Quote He is my human Lord and Savior.
First, Martian is not paying attention to the scriptures WJ has given. Martian says that Jesus is his “human” Savior. Martian says this contrary to the scripture WJ gave which says that a man cannot save his brother,Certainly a man cannot rescue his brother; “he cannot pay God an adequate ransom price” (the ransom price for a human life is too high, and people go to their final destiny), so that he might continue to live forever and not experience death. Pss 49:7-9
Therefore, Jesus was not a mere man as WJ has correctly said. He is our God!
Second, Martian has implied that he has TWO saviors. The one is human and the other is God. But God said, “Besides Me there is no Savior” (Is. 43:11).
the Roo
As per usual with you and WJ you use poor scholarship to support your doctrine. Another fine example of cut and paste theology. Half truths and deceptions. Read the context of your so-called proof.Why should I fear in days of adversity,
When the iniquity of my foes surrounds me,
6Even those who trust in their wealth
And boast in the abundance of their riches?
7No man can by any means redeem his brother
Or give to God a ransom for him–
8For the redemption of his soul is costly,
And he should cease trying forever–
9That he should live on eternally,
That he should not undergo decay.
10For he sees that even wise men die;
The stupid and the senseless alike perish
And leave their wealth to others.
11Their inner thought is that their houses are forever
And their dwelling places to all generations;
They have called their lands after their own names.
12But man in his pomp will not endure;
He is like the beasts that perish.
13This is the way of those who are foolish,
And of those after them who approve their words. Selah.
14As sheep they are appointed for Sheol;
Death shall be their shepherd;
And the upright shall rule over them in the morning,
And their form shall be for Sheol to consume
So that they have no habitation.
15But God will redeem my soul from the power of Sheol,
For He will receive me. Selah.
16Do not be afraid when a man becomes rich,
When the glory of his house is increased;
17For when he dies he will carry nothing away;
His glory will not descend after him.
18Though while he lives he congratulates himself–
And though men praise you when you do well for yourself–
19He shall go to the generation of his fathers;
They will never see the light.
20Man in his pomp, yet without understanding,
Is like the beasts that perish.The context is about worldly wealth. These verse are saying that no one can buy their or anyone else’s salvation with worldly wealth.
If Christ tried to buy us back with money then WJ and you would be right. He could not do it.
Christ did attempt to buy us back with Gold or Silver. He paid the price though his entire life by being perfected by what he suffered. By being a man of sorrows. Finally by giving his own life and blood. Psalms 49 has nothing to do with this process.Quote (martian @ June 18 2010,11:25) Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ June 18 2010,04:13) Martian said to WJ: Quote He is my human Lord and Savior.
First, Martian is not paying attention to the scriptures WJ has given. Martian says that Jesus is his “human” Savior. Martian says this contrary to the scripture WJ gave which says that a man cannot save his brother,Certainly a man cannot rescue his brother; “he cannot pay God an adequate ransom price” (the ransom price for a human life is too high, and people go to their final destiny), so that he might continue to live forever and not experience death. Pss 49:7-9
Therefore, Jesus was not a mere man as WJ has correctly said. He is our God!
Second, Martian has implied that he has TWO saviors. The one is human and the other is God. But God said, “Besides Me there is no Savior” (Is. 43:11).
the Roo
As per usual with you and WJ you use poor scholarship to support your doctrine. Another fine example of cut and paste theology. Half truths and deceptions. Read the context of your so-called proof.Why should I fear in days of adversity,
When the iniquity of my foes surrounds me,
6Even those who trust in their wealth
And boast in the abundance of their riches?
7No man can by any means redeem his brother
Or give to God a ransom for him–
8For the redemption of his soul is costly,
And he should cease trying forever–
9That he should live on eternally,
That he should not undergo decay.
10For he sees that even wise men die;
The stupid and the senseless alike perish
And leave their wealth to others.
11Their inner thought is that their houses are forever
And their dwelling places to all generations;
They have called their lands after their own names.
12But man in his pomp will not endure;
He is like the beasts that perish.
13This is the way of those who are foolish,
And of those after them who approve their words. Selah.
14As sheep they are appointed for Sheol;
Death shall be their shepherd;
And the upright shall rule over them in the morning,
And their form shall be for Sheol to consume
So that they have no habitation.
15But God will redeem my soul from the power of Sheol,
For He will receive me. Selah.
16Do not be afraid when a man becomes rich,
When the glory of his house is increased;
17For when he dies he will carry nothing away;
His glory will not descend after him.
18Though while he lives he congratulates himself–
And though men praise you when you do well for yourself–
19He shall go to the generation of his fathers;
They will never see the light.
20Man in his pomp, yet without understanding,
Is like the beasts that perish.The context is about worldly wealth. These verse are saying that no one can buy their or anyone else’s salvation with worldly wealth.
If Christ tried to buy us back with money then WJ and you would be right. He could not do it.
Christ did attempt to buy us back with Gold or Silver. He paid the price though his entire life by being perfected by what he suffered. By being a man of sorrows. Finally by giving his own life and blood. Psalms 49 has nothing to do with this process.
Sorry typo —
This sentence should read “Christ did NOT attempt to buy us back with Gold or Silver. He paid the price though his entire life by being perfected by what he suffered.Quote (martian @ June 18 2010,11:25) Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ June 18 2010,04:13) Martian said to WJ: Quote He is my human Lord and Savior.
First, Martian is not paying attention to the scriptures WJ has given. Martian says that Jesus is his “human” Savior. Martian says this contrary to the scripture WJ gave which says that a man cannot save his brother,Certainly a man cannot rescue his brother; “he cannot pay God an adequate ransom price” (the ransom price for a human life is too high, and people go to their final destiny), so that he might continue to live forever and not experience death. Pss 49:7-9
Therefore, Jesus was not a mere man as WJ has correctly said. He is our God!
Second, Martian has implied that he has TWO saviors. The one is human and the other is God. But God said, “Besides Me there is no Savior” (Is. 43:11).
the Roo
As per usual with you and WJ you use poor scholarship to support your doctrine. Another fine example of cut and paste theology. Half truths and deceptions. Read the context of your so-called proof.Why should I fear in days of adversity,
When the iniquity of my foes surrounds me,
6Even those who trust in their wealth
And boast in the abundance of their riches?
7No man can by any means redeem his brother
Or give to God a ransom for him–
8For the redemption of his soul is costly,
And he should cease trying forever–
9That he should live on eternally,
That he should not undergo decay.
10For he sees that even wise men die;
The stupid and the senseless alike perish
And leave their wealth to others.
11Their inner thought is that their houses are forever
And their dwelling places to all generations;
They have called their lands after their own names.
12But man in his pomp will not endure;
He is like the beasts that perish.
13This is the way of those who are foolish,
And of those after them who approve their words. Selah.
14As sheep they are appointed for Sheol;
Death shall be their shepherd;
And the upright shall rule over them in the morning,
And their form shall be for Sheol to consume
So that they have no habitation.
15But God will redeem my soul from the power of Sheol,
For He will receive me. Selah.
16Do not be afraid when a man becomes rich,
When the glory of his house is increased;
17For when he dies he will carry nothing away;
His glory will not descend after him.
18Though while he lives he congratulates himself–
And though men praise you when you do well for yourself–
19He shall go to the generation of his fathers;
They will never see the light.
20Man in his pomp, yet without understanding,
Is like the beasts that perish.The context is about worldly wealth. These verse are saying that no one can buy their or anyone else’s salvation with worldly wealth.
If Christ tried to buy us back with money then WJ and you would be right. He could not do it.
Christ did attempt to buy us back with Gold or Silver. He paid the price though his entire life by being perfected by what he suffered. By being a man of sorrows. Finally by giving his own life and blood. Psalms 49 has nothing to do with this process.
I IN NO WAY IMPLIED TWO SAVIORS. GOD IS THE ONLY SAVIOR. He may except the sacrifice of Christ as payment for our redemption and save us for Christ sake.
Jesus paid a price acceptable to God and God saves us even as he saved Christ from death when he raised him from the dead.martian, thanks for your posts. But you don't need to quote every time. It would have been easier to follow had you just posted under your post. After all, your original post has a bigger font and is therefore easier to read anyway.
About Phil 2. I have posted several times about Phil. The problem us that many Trinitarians have a wrong understanding of this portion of scripture based on a preconceived idea of doctrine. This verse has nothing to do with the Godhead or about the pre-existent Christ. These verses are direct comparison between the first and the second Adam. Between Jesus and Adam. Between the motives and actions of Adam as compared to the motives and actions of Christ.
Allow me to set the stage for understanding the fall.
Gen 1, God creates man in His image and likeness and gives man dominion and authority to rule over the Earth.
At the end of the sixth day God finishes His creating process and says it is “good”. The literal meaning of “good” is functional. God created a functional world in which everything worked properly including man. There was no dysfunction in this world. Adam knew no dysfunction.
Gen 3
1Now the serpent was more crafty than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said to the woman, “Indeed, has God said, 'You shall not eat from any tree of the garden'?”
2The woman said to the serpent, “From the fruit of the trees of the garden we may eat;
3but from the fruit of the tree which is in the middle of the garden, God has said, 'You shall not eat from it or touch it, or you will die.'”
4The serpent said to the woman, “You surely will not die!
5″For God knows that in the day you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”A literal Mechanical translation of verse 5 is this –
Given that “Elohiym [Powers] is knowing that in the day you eat from him then your eyes will be opened up and you will exist like Elohiym [Powers] knowing function and dysfunction
God knows what function and dysfunction is. Knowing function (good) and dysfunction (evil) makes you like God. You then begin making choices for yourself as to which of them you will choose. Before the fall man depended completely on God for direction and leadership. He did not equate himself equal with God in the decisions for his own life.
The temptation of Satan was for Adam and Eve to equate themselves with God by knowing function AND DYSFUNCTION. This was the fall. Man took God off the thrown and replaced God with themselves. Adam used his free will and position as a son of God to meet his own needs. Adam had dominion over the Earth and everything in it. He used that dominion to serve himself and look out for his own personal interest. The fall resulted in Adam losing that position of dominion.Now to Phil 4. Notice the context is set from the very beginning. It is not about proof of divinity or pre-existance for Jesus but rather about the attitude Christ had. Here the context is set of comparing the first and second Adam. I am deleting the verse separations since they were not in the originals. I am also replacing the term “form” with the literal meaning of the word “outward appearance”.
3Do nothing from selfishness or empty conceit, but with humility of mind regard one another as more important than yourselves; do not merely look out for your own personal interests, but also for the interests of others. Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, who, although He existed in the external appearance of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself, taking the external appearance of a bond-servant, and being made in likeness of men being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.Jesus was a son of God. Created in the image (outward appearance) of God. Jesus appeared as a God to the people because He functioned as God to them. The people marveled at Him because He spoke with authority unlike the leaders of Israel. He performed miracles as no other had done.
Because Jesus never sought to meet his own needs, but always trusted God, He never lost His position of dominion over the Earth. He did not use his freedom to supply His own needs or desires. Not even his legitimate needs. Example – In the desert he was starving and had the power to turn the stones into bread. This was a legitimate need yet he would not go beyond God’s will. At other times (when it was God’s will) he did exercise dominion over God’s creation. When He was to enter the temple to preach, Peter pointed out that they had no Temple tax. Jesus told him to catch a fish and in that fishes mouth would be a coin for the tax. Jesus used the authority that God gave him to have dominion. Jesus took on the appearance of a bond servant to the people and did not use His position to exalt himself or meet his own needs.
9For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name,
10so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
12So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling;
13for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.
14Do all things without grumbling or disputing;
15so that you will prove yourselves to be blameless and innocent, children of God above reproach in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation, among whom you appear as lights in the world,
16holding fast the word of life, so that in the day of Christ I will have reason to glory because I did not run in vain nor toil in vain.
17But even if I am being poured out as a drink offering upon the sacrifice and service of your faith, I rejoice and share my joy with you all.
18You too, I urge you, rejoice in the same way and share your joy with me.Adam equated himself equal with God. He sought to be equal with God. Jesus did not.
Mankind lost their position in God’s creation and Jesus never having given up his human position of dominion could have lorded over man, but instead became a servant to them. Jesus is a king and ruler over God’s creation because He never gave up that position.
This entire section of verse is pointing out the attitude of Christ. It is also a lesson to those of us that will become like Him that we keep humble even when we find ourselves wielding great authority in God. That we continue to serve our brethren rather then build our own kingdom.Quote (t8 @ June 18 2010,10:02) Listen to the voice of reason and truth. God made Jesus Lord and Christ.
Who is God if he made Jesus Lord.
Did Jesus make himself Lord and Christ?
All of which is explained by John 1:1-14, Phil 2:5-8, Hebrews 2:9…..Base your theology on the whole counsel of God's word t8, not just cherry-picked sections.
Quote (Is 1:18 @ June 18 2010,11:43) Quote (t8 @ June 18 2010,10:02) Listen to the voice of reason and truth. God made Jesus Lord and Christ.
Who is God if he made Jesus Lord.
Did Jesus make himself Lord and Christ?
All of which is explained by John 1:1-14, Phil 2:5-8, Hebrews 2:9…..Base your theology on the whole counsel of God's word t8, not just cherry-picked sections.
Yes Arain presupposition is based in the selective use of scripture.Kangaroo Jack
Quote (Is 1:18 @ June 18 2010,11:43) Base your theology on the whole counsel of God's word t8, not just cherry-picked sections.
I don't need to cherry pick. When a man believes that there is one God the Father, then no verse in scripture contradicts.When a man believes that there is one God the Father, Son, Spirit, then many contradictions are created and ignoring such verses and intellectualising your doctrine is the only way to make it look respectable to the unsuspecting.
Your doctrine contradicts these 100 verses for a start:
https://heavennet.net/writings/trinity-11.htm
It boils down to whether a man loves his ego more than the truth.
However, even if the ego wins, the truth will always win in the end.Amen to that.
Fighting the truth is a hard road. Nothing aligns for a person who tried to sell a lie as truth. In the end, they need the support of doctrines that are not found in scripture.
Basic stuff, but I need to remind some of these truths.
God is the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Jesus is the son of God.
Jesus is the messiah and was sent by God.
God is a Spirit.
Jesus has a spirit.
Each of us have a spirit.We are one in spirit.
Throw the Trinity away. It is a useless theory that needs many assumptions before it even looks like it is standing. Even then, you could take any one of hundreds of scriptures and it falls down.
No point in trying to prop up something that has no true foundation.
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