Preexistence

[Proclaimer]

OK, here it is laid out before you. There is no excuse.

One group here says that Jesus is God and part of the Trinity. This group adds to the Word of God, their words.
Another group here says that Jesus did not have glory with the Father before the world begun. They deny what it means when Jesus said, “before Abraham, I am”. This group is taking away from scripture.

So when these 2 groups spar over the issue of this topic, one group sees the other as taking away from the word of God and the other as adding to the word of God. So each group feels justified in their position, because they know the other group is wrong.

Here is the kicker. YOU ARE BOTH WRONG and you can argue to the cows come home, but proving your opponent wrong doesn't equate to making your point right.

Do you really need to discover this on Judgement Day, that there is no Trinity and that indeed the Word was with God and came in the flesh.

I honestly do not expect that either group will be able to see the reality here and accept that there is no Trinity and that Jesus as the Word was with God before the world began. I am sure that pride will see to that. But you have been warned and so you have no excuse. So now, you await Judgement Day to see your error?

Does anyone want to place a bet. One talent in the next life?  

[Ed J]

Quote (Jodi Lee @ April 01 2010,09:19)

Ed J, You said, “I have stated Mary's father's lineage goes back to Nathen(son of David). Jesus step dad's lineage (as well) goes back to (son of David). (Matt.1:6-16) These are the “Only” connections to “son of David”(regarding Jesus' lineage).” You are greatly mistaken with Matthew 1, it is NOT the lineage of a step dad being given, it DIRECTLY states that it IS the lineage of JESUS that is being given!!

Hi Jodi,

People need: “BIBLE PERCEPTION“=151, to understand “BIBLE TRUTH“=117 ! (AKJV Eph.4:22-24)

    I took the liberty of removing all the irrelevant 'squag' from your previous Post to me.
You may be 'blind', but you CANNOT be Color Blind” concerning the “Truth” of “YHVH”=63!

    I (also) took the liberty of adding COLOR=63 for you to SEE “Bible Truth”=117…
Matt.1:16 And Jacob begat Joseph(Jesus step dad) the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.

                       JESUS' FATHER IS GOD(HolySpirit)

       Jesus' REAL Father is the “HolySpirit”GOD; not Joseph(son of david)! (Luke 20:41-44)
Why do you discount Jesus words in Luke 20:41-44 and the written account in “The Bible”=63…

Matt.1:18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph,
before they came together (consummated the marrage), she was found with child of the HolySpirit.

Matt.1:20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying,
Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the HolySpirit.

Luke 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The HolySpirit shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall
overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the “Son of God”(HolySpirit).

                       “YHVH is GOD”=117
PSALM 117 is [The Bible's Center], the [smallest chapter] of the [LARGEST BOOK]!

Witnessing to the world in behalf of… (Psalm 45:17)
117=יהוה האלהים(JEHOVAH GOD) YÄ-hä-vā hä ĔL-ō-Hêêm!
Ed J (AKJV Joshua 22:34 / Isaiah 60:13-15)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[Ed J]

Quote (Elizabeth @ April 01 2010,11:45)

Marty! I proved to myself that Jesus preexisted, it's your turn.   Peace and Love Irene

Hi Irene,

What do you make of this verse?

John 15:27 And ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning.

God bless
Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[942767]

Quote (Elizabeth @ April 01 2010,11:45)

Marty!   Even though I do not agree on the trinity, however Jesus did exist before His Birth here on earth.   Col. 1:15-17 Rev. 3:14 Firstborn of all creation and after that Jesus created all by the power of the Father. John 1:1 tells us that He was The Word of God. verse 14 tells us that that Word became flesh and dwelt among us.  Jesus was also called God by His Father in Hebrew 1:8-9 The one Scripture that tells us in Col. 1:18 is that He also is the firstborn of the dead.  So in all things He will have preeminence, meaning He was first in born and first to be resurrected from the dead. The one Scriptures that prove Jesus was The Word of God is in Rev. 19:13 “He was clothed in a robe dipped in blood, and His name is The Word of God. in verse 16 makes it very clear that “And on His robe and on His thigh is a name written:  KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS. Is there another person who had this name written on their robe and thigh?  No….. And by Jesus own word He said this in John 17:5 “And now O Father glorify Me together with Yourself with the glory which I had with You before the World was. And there are some Scriptures that not to many believe, but I know t8 does are in Proverbs 8:22-30 Can a craftsman be Wisdom, which some believe ?  No. I will give you a few more, but I am not going to write them out, I proved to myself that Jesus preexisted, it's your turn.   John 6:38-40 This is Jesus saying where He came from John 8:58 John 3:17 John 1:15 These are some good Scriptures yet will you and others believe what Jesus said?  I believe if you deny Jesus, He will one day deny you, IMO   Peace and Love Irene

Mrs. I agree, that there is no “trinity”, but I don't agree that Jesus esisted as a sentient person. He is the “firstborn” of creation in that He is the “first begotten” of God, and yes, he is the “first born from the dead”.

The spirit of the Son was with the Father in the beginning. God knew that he would bring forth a Son at a specific point in time and he knew that he would obey Him without sin even unto death on the cross. The scripture states that Jesus was “fore-ordained” not that he “pre-existed”.

Both you and I are responsible to God for what we teach, and so, teach what you want regarding this. I am satisfied that I am teaching the truth especially since I ask God in prayer every morning to correct me if I am teaching anything that is not His Word or doing anything that is not His will.

Love in Christ,
Marty

[942767]

Quote (t8 @ April 01 2010,12:15)

OK, here it is laid out before you. There is no excuse. One group here says that Jesus is God and part of the Trinity. This group adds to the Word of God, their words. Another group here says that Jesus did not have glory with the Father before the world begun. They deny what it means when Jesus said, “before Abraham, I am”. This group is taking away from scripture. So when these 2 groups spar over the issue of this topic, one group sees the other as taking away from the word of God and the other as adding to the word of God. So each group feels justified in their position, because they know the other group is wrong. Here is the kicker. YOU ARE BOTH WRONG and you can argue to the cows come home, but proving your opponent wrong doesn't equate to making your point right. Do you really need to discover this on Judgement Day, that there is no Trinity and that indeed the Word was with God and came in the flesh. I honestly do not expect that either group will be able to see the reality here and accept that there is no Trinity and that Jesus as the Word was with God before the world began. I am sure that pride will see to that. But you have been warned and so you have no excuse. So now, you await Judgement Day to see your error? Does anyone want to place a bet. One talent in the next life?

Hi t8:

Based on your opinion, I am wrong, but suppose God confirms what I am teaching, then would you still insist that you are right about this issue?

Just step back a moment and see how ridiculous what you are saying sounds in light of the scriptures in general.

You said:

Jesus said “Before Abraham, I am”.
Pretty clear.

Jesus who had glory with God before the world began, and existed in the form of God came down from heaven and emptied himself and partook of flesh, and was found as a man. He was then humbled himself to even the point of death and was raised into glory at the right hand of the Majesty on High. From this experience Jesus secured our salvation and he even learned obedience in the process.

How do you explain this in light of what the scriptures state regarding the Holy Ghost overshadowing Mary and Jesus being conceived in her womb, for example?

It is God who will unltimately say who is correct on this issue. I would not bet all your talents on what you seem to believe on this issue.

Love in Christ,
Marty

[Jodi Lee]

Quote (Ed J @ April 01 2010,12:46)

Quote (Jodi Lee @ April 01 2010,09:19) Ed J, You said, “I have stated Mary's father's lineage goes back to Nathen(son of David). Jesus step dad's lineage (as well) goes back to (son of David). (Matt.1:6-16) These are the “Only” connections to “son of David”(regarding Jesus' lineage).” You are greatly mistaken with Matthew 1, it is NOT the lineage of a step dad being given, it DIRECTLY states that it IS the lineage of JESUS that is being given!! Hi Jodi, People need: “BIBLE PERCEPTION“=151, to understand “BIBLE TRUTH“=117 ! (AKJV Eph.4:22-24)     I took the liberty of removing all the irrelevant 'squag' from your previous Post to me. You may be 'blind', but you CANNOT be Color Blind” concerning the “Truth” of “YHVH”=63!     I (also) took the liberty of adding COLOR=63 for you to SEE “Bible Truth”=117… Matt.1:16 And Jacob begat Joseph(Jesus step dad) the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.                        JESUS' FATHER IS GOD(HolySpirit)        Jesus' REAL Father is the “HolySpirit”GOD; not Joseph(son of david)! (Luke 20:41-44) Why do you discount Jesus words in Luke 20:41-44 and the written account in “The Bible”=63… Matt.1:18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together (consummated the marrage), she was found with child of the HolySpirit. Matt.1:20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the HolySpirit. Luke 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The HolySpirit shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the “Son of God”(HolySpirit).                        “YHVH is GOD”=117 PSALM 117 is [The Bible's Center], the [smallest chapter] of the [LARGEST BOOK]! Witnessing to the world in behalf of… (Psalm 45:17) 117=יהוה האלהים(JEHOVAH GOD) YÄ-hä-vā hä ĔL-ō-Hêêm! Ed J (AKJV Joshua 22:34 / Isaiah 60:13-15) http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

I asked you SIMPLE questions about MEN WHO ARE ALSO CALLED God's SONS, and you want to say, “I took the liberty of removing all the irrelevant 'squag' from your previous Post to me.”

That's a rather unfortunate response, I will no longer bother to converse with you.

[Ed J]

Quote (Jodi Lee @ April 01 2010,15:30)

Quote (Ed J @ April 01 2010,12:46) Quote (Jodi Lee @ April 01 2010,09:19) Ed J, You said, “I have stated Mary's father's lineage goes back to Nathen(son of David). Jesus step dad's lineage (as well) goes back to (son of David). (Matt.1:6-16) These are the “Only” connections to “son of David”(regarding Jesus' lineage).” You are greatly mistaken with Matthew 1, it is NOT the lineage of a step dad being given, it DIRECTLY states that it IS the lineage of JESUS that is being given!! Hi Jodi, People need: “BIBLE PERCEPTION“=151, to understand “BIBLE TRUTH“=117 ! (AKJV Eph.4:22-24)     I took the liberty of removing all the irrelevant 'squag' from your previous Post to me. You may be 'blind', but you CANNOT be Color Blind” concerning the “Truth” of “YHVH”=63!     I (also) took the liberty of adding COLOR=63 for you to SEE “Bible Truth”=117… Matt.1:16 And Jacob begat Joseph(Jesus step dad) the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.                        JESUS' FATHER IS GOD(HolySpirit)        Jesus' REAL Father is the “HolySpirit”GOD; not Joseph(son of david)! (Luke 20:41-44) Why do you discount Jesus words in Luke 20:41-44 and the written account in “The Bible”=63… Matt.1:18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together (consummated the marrage), she was found with child of the HolySpirit. Matt.1:20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the HolySpirit. Luke 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The HolySpirit shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the “Son of God”(HolySpirit).                        “YHVH is GOD”=117 PSALM 117 is [The Bible's Center], the [smallest chapter] of the [LARGEST BOOK]! Witnessing to the world in behalf of… (Psalm 45:17) 117=יהוה האלהים(JEHOVAH GOD) YÄ-hä-vā hä ĔL-ō-Hêêm! Ed J (AKJV Joshua 22:34 / Isaiah 60:13-15) http://www.holycitybiblecode.org I asked you SIMPLE questions about MEN WHO ARE ALSO CALLED God's SONS, and you want to say, “I took the liberty of removing all the irrelevant 'squag' from your previous Post to me.” That's a rather unfortunate response, I will no longer bother to converse with you.

Hi Jodi,

Isn't your goal on the forum to gain consensus?
Isn't how Jesus is viewed (by us) relevant to our discussion?
My goal is to promote “Bible Truth”, not entertain useless irrelevant opinions!
Would you rather engage with others like WJ and TT in endless futile disputes with no end?
What you do here is your “Free Will”, if you choose to remain 'close minded', it is your “Choice” to make.

God bless
Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[GeneBalthrop]

ED J……..Do you words apply to you also, Is what you do here “FREE WILL” or a exercise of an INFLUENCED WILL? I think if the real truth is know it is an exercise of a INFLUENCED WILL held captive by your thoughts . Hardly “FREE” AT ALL. IMO

[terraricca]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ April 02 2010,02:32)

ED J……..Do you words apply to you also, Is what you do here “FREE WILL” or a exercise of an INFLUENCED WILL? I think if the real truth is know it is an exercise of a INFLUENCED WILL held captive by your thoughts . Hardly “FREE” AT ALL. IMO

gene
you say;
I think if the real truth is know it is an exercise of a INFLUENCED WILL held captive by your thoughts

Could you explain in your own word what you means by this

[JustAskin]

T8,

Very amusing post.

I'll keep my One Talent – I'll put my one $dollar in God's bank – What's the interest rate?

(By the way, There will not be any such thing as Money in the new world – What would be the need – God will give everyone one of us who are saved everything we need!)

Can I ak you, What IS Jesus. We know He is not God and we know He is not an Angel. What then IS HE?
Cherbim, Seraphim, ArchAngel?

What happened to the Position that Satan vacated – was he not one of the TWO 'Anointed' Cherubim covering the Seat of God (Perfect in all his ways until sin was found in him (Oo, er…, TT says only God is Perfect and everthing else is Imperfect even that which the Perfect person created – even [He who became] Jesus? But not [he who became] Satan??)

WHO was the other ['Anointed'?] Cherubim?

Throughout the Scriptures, a message has always be relayed: “[God] takes away the first to establish the second”
The First sins and is ousted. The Second is begotten as 'First' and succeeds in place of the first.

[Elizabeth]

Quote (942767 @ April 01 2010,13:15)

Quote (Elizabeth @ April 01 2010,11:45) Marty!   Even though I do not agree on the trinity, however Jesus did exist before His Birth here on earth.   Col. 1:15-17 Rev. 3:14 Firstborn of all creation and after that Jesus created all by the power of the Father. John 1:1 tells us that He was The Word of God. verse 14 tells us that that Word became flesh and dwelt among us.  Jesus was also called God by His Father in Hebrew 1:8-9 The one Scripture that tells us in Col. 1:18 is that He also is the firstborn of the dead.  So in all things He will have preeminence, meaning He was first in born and first to be resurrected from the dead. The one Scriptures that prove Jesus was The Word of God is in Rev. 19:13 “He was clothed in a robe dipped in blood, and His name is The Word of God. in verse 16 makes it very clear that “And on His robe and on His thigh is a name written:  KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS. Is there another person who had this name written on their robe and thigh?  No….. And by Jesus own word He said this in John 17:5 “And now O Father glorify Me together with Yourself with the glory which I had with You before the World was. And there are some Scriptures that not to many believe, but I know t8 does are in Proverbs 8:22-30 Can a craftsman be Wisdom, which some believe ?  No. I will give you a few more, but I am not going to write them out, I proved to myself that Jesus preexisted, it's your turn.   John 6:38-40 This is Jesus saying where He came from John 8:58 John 3:17 John 1:15 These are some good Scriptures yet will you and others believe what Jesus said?  I believe if you deny Jesus, He will one day deny you, IMO   Peace and Love Irene Mrs.  I agree, that there is no “trinity”, but I don't agree that Jesus esisted as a sentient person.  He is the “firstborn” of creation in that He is the “first begotten” of God, and yes, he is the “first born from the dead”. The spirit of the Son was with the Father in the beginning.  God knew that he would bring forth a Son at a specific point in time and he knew that he would obey Him without sin even unto death on the cross.  The scripture states that Jesus was “fore-ordained” not that he “pre-existed”.   Both you and I are responsible to God for what we teach, and so, teach what you want regarding this.  I am satisfied that I am teaching the truth especially since I ask God in prayer every morning to correct me if I am teaching anything that is not His Word or doing anything that is not His will. Love in Christ, Marty

Marty! If you deny in what John 17:5 says then you are calling Jesus a liar. He said that He had a glory with His Father before the world was. And He went back to that glory. What is He today in Heaven? Do you believe that He Bodily went to Heaven or did He and is He a Spirit Being now? Flesh and Blood will not go to Heaven, will it?
And what does Preeminence mean? It means that He was first in all. Not just in the plan of God or intellect, or for-ordained.
And did you take a good look at
Rev. 19:13and 16 the KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS?
Jesus Christ, who will reign as King of Kings and Lord of Lords.
THE WORD OF GOD. THE SAME WORD IN JOHN 1:1 THAT BECAME FLESH IN VERSE 14.
When you say what you did, you interpreting the Scriptures to your liking. It says that He was with His Father in the beginning before the world was. He knew were He came from and that is what He asked His Father to go back to…. Do you have a firstborn Son? We do, and FIRSTBORN OF ALL CREATION MEANS FIRSTBORN AND NOTHING ELSE. If you believe and say something else, then you interpreting that Scripture. That is what you are doing. And what about the Scripture were Jesus says in
John 6:38
“For I HAVE COME DOWN FROM HEAVEN, not to do my will but the will of HIM WHON SEND ME. Where did He come down from? And WHO SEND HIM, send Him? Give me break.
John 3:17 “For God did not SEND HIS SON INTO THE WORLD….where did God send His Son from. He did not say that He only was for-ordained. What Scripture is that? I never just go by someones word, SCRIPTURE PLEASE.
I am well aware that what I teach I will be responsible for. I have Scriptures to back me up in what I say. You however interpret these Scriptures to your liking and not the way they are written. Some of these Scriptures I got from an article that Heaven Net has. Look at it. t8 has a good understanding of Scriptures and I for one appreciate that.. Thank you t8 if you read this….
Peace and Love Irene

[Lightenup]

Quote (t8 @ Mar. 31 2010,20:15)

OK, here it is laid out before you. There is no excuse. One group here says that Jesus is God and part of the Trinity. This group adds to the Word of God, their words. Another group here says that Jesus did not have glory with the Father before the world begun. They deny what it means when Jesus said, “before Abraham, I am”. This group is taking away from scripture. So when these 2 groups spar over the issue of this topic, one group sees the other as taking away from the word of God and the other as adding to the word of God. So each group feels justified in their position, because they know the other group is wrong. Here is the kicker. YOU ARE BOTH WRONG and you can argue to the cows come home, but proving your opponent wrong doesn't equate to making your point right. Do you really need to discover this on Judgement Day, that there is no Trinity and that indeed the Word was with God and came in the flesh. I honestly do not expect that either group will be able to see the reality here and accept that there is no Trinity and that Jesus as the Word was with God before the world began. I am sure that pride will see to that. But you have been warned and so you have no excuse. So now, you await Judgement Day to see your error? Does anyone want to place a bet. One talent in the next life?

Hi t8,
Touche' on your post with one exception…God can have a son who is as much his nature as God Himself. We see it in the created world ALL the time. One nature begets one of the same nature. Thus if they both have the same nature, they are both deity albeit one is older than the other. The Son of God will never have the unique quality of always existing and be the source of all things good but that doesn't mean that He isn't God, as the Son. He isn't God as the Father, He is God as the Son of God would be.

In the OT we see the Father and the Son.
The Father is the Lord God
The Son is the outstretched arm of the Lord God
In the OT that combination was referred to as the only God…two beings together as the only God. The Jews did not understand two beings together as being the only God…it was revealed when the Father bared His arm and revealed the Son in the NT. Isaiah foresaw this glory and wrote about it, John also mentioned this.

In the NT the two are distinguished as the Father and the Son…both being deity, one greater than the other.

The Son revealed the Father and the Father reveals and continues to reveal the Son.

When it all comes down at the end, the Almighty God and the Lamb are the temple…together as one temple for us. Together they act as one rule. Both are called God in Revelations but they both have taken different roles since the beginning.

As I understand things, the Father was the designer and gave the commands, the Son carries them out faithfully and perfectly empowered and guided by the inner person of the Father-the Holy Spirit.

[terraricca]

Quote (Lightenup @ April 02 2010,06:14)

Quote (t8 @ Mar. 31 2010,20:15) OK, here it is laid out before you. There is no excuse. One group here says that Jesus is God and part of the Trinity. This group adds to the Word of God, their words. Another group here says that Jesus did not have glory with the Father before the world begun. They deny what it means when Jesus said, “before Abraham, I am”. This group is taking away from scripture. So when these 2 groups spar over the issue of this topic, one group sees the other as taking away from the word of God and the other as adding to the word of God. So each group feels justified in their position, because they know the other group is wrong. Here is the kicker. YOU ARE BOTH WRONG and you can argue to the cows come home, but proving your opponent wrong doesn't equate to making your point right. Do you really need to discover this on Judgement Day, that there is no Trinity and that indeed the Word was with God and came in the flesh. I honestly do not expect that either group will be able to see the reality here and accept that there is no Trinity and that Jesus as the Word was with God before the world began. I am sure that pride will see to that. But you have been warned and so you have no excuse. So now, you await Judgement Day to see your error? Does anyone want to place a bet. One talent in the next life?   Hi t8, Touche' on your post with one exception…God can have a son who is as much his nature as God Himself.  We see it in the created world ALL the time.  One nature begets one of the same nature.  Thus if they both have the same nature, they are both deity albeit one is older than the other.  The Son of God will never have the unique quality of always existing and be the source of all things good but that doesn't mean that He isn't God, as the Son.  He isn't God as the Father, He is God as the Son of God would be. In the OT we see the Father and the Son. The Father is the Lord God The Son is the outstretched arm of the Lord God In the OT that combination was referred to as the only God…two beings together as the only God.  The Jews did not understand two beings together as being the only God…it was revealed when the Father bared His arm and revealed the Son in the NT.  Isaiah foresaw this glory and wrote about it, John also mentioned this. In the NT the two are distinguished as the Father and the Son…both being deity, one greater than the other. The Son revealed the Father and the Father reveals and continues to reveal the Son. When it all comes down at the end, the Almighty God and the Lamb are the temple…together as one temple for us.  Together they act as one rule.  Both are called God in Revelations but they both have taken different roles since the beginning. As I understand things, the Father was the designer and gave the commands, the Son carries them out faithfully and perfectly empowered and guided by the inner person of the Father-the Holy Spirit.

LU

you do not know the power of God,he begot his son ,for the reason of his power,Christ said no ones has seen the father but the son.

the Word (Jesus )can not be of the same nature ,he would have had the same problem ,not be able to create all the things he did,because of his power,

so Christ was made less of the nature of God this allowed him to be the one were all creation would take place through.so that what ever was created trough him was of lesser nature than him.

in a way because of that handicap God has made a god to all creation from Jesus ,like Moses to his brother Aaron and Israel.

even wen Israel call to see God ,it was so powerful they ask to stop and content with moses.

that s what the scriptures are telling me

[Elizabeth]

Quote (t8 @ April 01 2010,12:15)

OK, here it is laid out before you. There is no excuse. One group here says that Jesus is God and part of the Trinity. This group adds to the Word of God, their words. Another group here says that Jesus did not have glory with the Father before the world begun. They deny what it means when Jesus said, “before Abraham, I am”. This group is taking away from scripture. So when these 2 groups spar over the issue of this topic, one group sees the other as taking away from the word of God and the other as adding to the word of God. So each group feels justified in their position, because they know the other group is wrong. Here is the kicker. YOU ARE BOTH WRONG and you can argue to the cows come home, but proving your opponent wrong doesn't equate to making your point right. Do you really need to discover this on Judgement Day, that there is no Trinity and that indeed the Word was with God and came in the flesh. I honestly do not expect that either group will be able to see the reality here and accept that there is no Trinity and that Jesus as the Word was with God before the world began. I am sure that pride will see to that. But you have been warned and so you have no excuse. So now, you await Judgement Day to see your error? Does anyone want to place a bet. One talent in the next life?

Well, I do believe that Jesus was in Heaven with His Father before the world was.
By Jesus own words in
John 6:38 “For I have come down from Heaven not to do My will, but the will of Him who send Me….
Col.1:15 He is the firstborn of all creation…..
Col. 1:18 He also is the firstborn of the death that in all things He may have preeminence….and more. See my previous post to Marty….
Peace and Love Irene

[942767]

Quote (Elizabeth @ April 02 2010,05:47)

Quote (942767 @ April 01 2010,13:15) Quote (Elizabeth @ April 01 2010,11:45) Marty!   Even though I do not agree on the trinity, however Jesus did exist before His Birth here on earth.   Col. 1:15-17 Rev. 3:14 Firstborn of all creation and after that Jesus created all by the power of the Father. John 1:1 tells us that He was The Word of God. verse 14 tells us that that Word became flesh and dwelt among us.  Jesus was also called God by His Father in Hebrew 1:8-9 The one Scripture that tells us in Col. 1:18 is that He also is the firstborn of the dead.  So in all things He will have preeminence, meaning He was first in born and first to be resurrected from the dead. The one Scriptures that prove Jesus was The Word of God is in Rev. 19:13 “He was clothed in a robe dipped in blood, and His name is The Word of God. in verse 16 makes it very clear that “And on His robe and on His thigh is a name written:  KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS. Is there another person who had this name written on their robe and thigh?  No….. And by Jesus own word He said this in John 17:5 “And now O Father glorify Me together with Yourself with the glory which I had with You before the World was. And there are some Scriptures that not to many believe, but I know t8 does are in Proverbs 8:22-30 Can a craftsman be Wisdom, which some believe ?  No. I will give you a few more, but I am not going to write them out, I proved to myself that Jesus preexisted, it's your turn.   John 6:38-40 This is Jesus saying where He came from John 8:58 John 3:17 John 1:15 These are some good Scriptures yet will you and others believe what Jesus said?  I believe if you deny Jesus, He will one day deny you, IMO   Peace and Love Irene Mrs.  I agree, that there is no “trinity”, but I don't agree that Jesus esisted as a sentient person.  He is the “firstborn” of creation in that He is the “first begotten” of God, and yes, he is the “first born from the dead”. The spirit of the Son was with the Father in the beginning.  God knew that he would bring forth a Son at a specific point in time and he knew that he would obey Him without sin even unto death on the cross.  The scripture states that Jesus was “fore-ordained” not that he “pre-existed”.   Both you and I are responsible to God for what we teach, and so, teach what you want regarding this.  I am satisfied that I am teaching the truth especially since I ask God in prayer every morning to correct me if I am teaching anything that is not His Word or doing anything that is not His will. Love in Christ, Marty Marty!  If you deny in what John 17:5 says then you are calling Jesus a liar.  He said that He had a glory with His Father before the world was.  And He went back to that glory.  What is He today in Heaven?  Do you believe that He Bodily went to Heaven or did He and is He a Spirit Being now?  Flesh and Blood will not go to Heaven, will it?     And what does Preeminence mean? It means that He was first in all.  Not just in the plan of God or intellect, or for-ordained. And did you take a good look at Rev. 19:13and 16 the KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS? Jesus Christ, who will reign as King of Kings and Lord of Lords. THE WORD OF GOD.  THE SAME WORD IN JOHN 1:1 THAT BECAME FLESH IN VERSE 14. When you say what you did, you interpreting the Scriptures to your liking.  It says that He was with His Father in the beginning before the world was.  He knew were He came from and that is what He asked His Father to go back to….   Do you have a firstborn Son?  We do, and FIRSTBORN OF ALL CREATION MEANS FIRSTBORN AND NOTHING ELSE.   If you believe and say something else, then you interpreting that Scripture.  That is what you are doing.  And what about the Scripture were Jesus says in John 6:38 “For I HAVE COME DOWN FROM HEAVEN, not to do my will but the will of HIM WHON SEND ME.  Where did He come down from?  And WHO SEND HIM, send Him?  Give me break. John 3:17  “For God did not SEND HIS SON INTO THE WORLD….where did God send His Son from.  He did not say that He only was for-ordained.  What Scripture is that?  I never just go by someones word, SCRIPTURE PLEASE. I am well  aware that what I teach I will be responsible for.  I have Scriptures to back me up in what I say.  You however interpret these Scriptures to your liking and not the way they are written.  Some of these Scriptures I got from an article that Heaven Net has.  Look at it.   t8 has a good understanding of Scriptures and I for one appreciate that.. Thank you t8 if you read this…. Peace and Love Irene

No, Mrs.

I am not calling Jesus a liar, but I do not agree with your interpretation of the scriptures that you are using to support your belief that Jesus pre-existed.

And so, let us just leave it at that. I have already given you my understanding of the scriptures that you continue to post to support your position.

In addition, Jesus did not tell us to go and preach that he pre-existed before his birth into this world, but he told us to go and preach the gospel so that people will believe and be saved, and that is what I will do.

I know that Jesus exists now by the Spirit of God my Father who dwells within me, and that is good enough for me.

Love in Christ,
Marty

[Elizabeth]

Marty! If you want to leave it at that, that is up to you. However I am not going to stand for that you think I am interpreting Scriptures. I am not. I am writing them the way they are written. And I am saying what it is written. When I say I came down from upstairs, would you think that I did not? NO. But when Jesus said so, you do not believe Him? No my friend I am not interpreting any of those Scriptures. I am reading them to you, right from the Word of God, the Bible. And the statement that you made that Jesus did not say that He preexisted, is so wrong. He did not call it that way, but what do you think when He said in John 17:5 that He wants the glory back which He had before the world was? We know that He is a Spirit Being today, and that is what He was before the world was, That is what Jesus said, not I.
Math, 15:9

Peace and Love Irene

[Jodi Lee]

Quote (Elizabeth @ April 03 2010,04:21)

Marty!  If you want to leave it at that, that is up to you.  However I am not going to stand for that you think I am interpreting Scriptures.  I am not.  I am writing them the way they are written.  And I am saying what it is written.  When I say I came down from upstairs, would you think that I did not?  NO.  But when Jesus said so, you do not believe Him?  No my friend I am not interpreting any of those Scriptures.  I am reading them to you, right from the Word of God, the Bible.  And the statement that you made that Jesus  did not say that He preexisted, is so wrong.  He did not call it that way, but what do you think when He said in John 17:5 that He wants the glory back which He had before the world was?  We know that He is a Spirit Being today, and that is what He was before the world was,  That is what Jesus said, not I. Math, 15:9 Peace and Love Irene

Hi Irene,

Scripture says the Son of Man ascended to where he was before

So do you believe the pre-existing Jesus was a MAN?

[942767]

Quote (Elizabeth @ April 03 2010,04:21)

Marty!  If you want to leave it at that, that is up to you.  However I am not going to stand for that you think I am interpreting Scriptures.  I am not.  I am writing them the way they are written.  And I am saying what it is written.  When I say I came down from upstairs, would you think that I did not?  NO.  But when Jesus said so, you do not believe Him?  No my friend I am not interpreting any of those Scriptures.  I am reading them to you, right from the Word of God, the Bible.  And the statement that you made that Jesus  did not say that He preexisted, is so wrong.  He did not call it that way, but what do you think when He said in John 17:5 that He wants the glory back which He had before the world was?  We know that He is a Spirit Being today, and that is what He was before the world was,  That is what Jesus said, not I. Math, 15:9 Peace and Love Irene

Hi Mrs:

And so, you think that only you can read the scriptures, is that it?

And there is no way that you can possibly be wrong about this?

I know that Jesus came down from heaven. First of all his body was conceived of the Holy Ghost. The Holy Ghost is the Sprit of God my Father whose throne is in heaven. Secondly, the spirit of the Son is the Word of God which he learned to obey and did obey even unto death of the cross. This Word that he obeyed came down from heaven. It was God who was speaking to humanity through Jesus and it was God who was dwelling within him that he was obeying.

The life that a person lives ultimately reflects who a person really is. It is what he does that matters. Jesus said “he who hath seen “me” hath seen the Father. And so, what is he talking about when he says this. We know that God is invisible, and so he is speaking of the works that he did in obedience to God's Word.

Also, this scripture in Hebrews supports this as well:

Quote

Hebrew 10:5Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me: 6In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure. 7Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God. 8Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law; 9Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. 10By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all

The it was the Word of God to which he refers when he says “me”.

The scripture in John 17 to which you keep referring says:

Quote

John 17:5And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

But he explains what he meant by this in the following verse. You can't just take one verse out of context and form your understanding based on just the one scripture.

Quote

John 17:24Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

He is speaking of the glory that God gave him when he exalted him to the head of the church. And when he say in John 17:5 “with the glory that I had with the before the world was”, he was speaking of this glory having been forseen by God. He says “that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world”.

God had forseen the exaltation of Jesus to his postion as head of the church before the foundation of the world. He created the world, and every thing that he made knowing that Jesus would accomplish his purpose to redeem mankind.

I have given you my understanding on this topic, and I can't do any more than that.

Love in Christ,
Marty

[942767]

Hi Mrs:

One other thing:

What do you mean that Jesus is a spirit being now? Please give me the scripture that states this.

Thanks,
Marty

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (942767 @ April 02 2010,18:37)

I know that Jesus came down from heaven.  First of all his body was conceived of the Holy Ghost.  The Holy Ghost is the Sprit of God my Father whose throne is in heaven.  Secondly, the spirit of the Son is the Word of God which he learned to obey and did obey even unto death of the cross.  This Word that he obeyed came down from heaven.  It was God who was speaking to humanity through Jesus and it was God who was dwelling within him that he was obeying.

Hi All

This is a total denial of the Greek text and Greek Grammatical rules which do not allow for this kind of translation.

If it did the Translators could have took the liberty to do so, but no credible translation reads what is made in these statements!

Blessings WJ

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