Preexistence

Participant

Quote (942767 @ Mar. 18 2010,10:53)

Hi t8:

Point #3: KJV

Quote

Col 1:12Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:

13Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

14In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

15Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

16For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

17And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

Verse 14 states “in whom we have redemption through his blood” and then verse 15 states “who is the image of the invisible God”. These verses are referring to Jesus in flesh. He is the firstborn (in rank) because verse 16 explains that God made every thing that he made by him and for him. (He is God's heir.) Verse 17 (He was fore-ordained and is the culmination of God's plan for humanity)

Love in Christ,
Marty

Marty! FIRSTBORN OF ALL CREATION, NOT IN RANK. He is also the firstborn of the death, and that you could say in rank. Because He is the first to be resurrected from the death. So in all things He may have preeminence. Meaning He is first in all……
Besides written 1:1 John He is the Word of God, and that Word became flesh. Not a plan or intellect, a Spirit Being became flesh.
If Jesus was in Heaven, and He was, then He had to be Spirit, because flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God, and that was true then too.
Look at
Rev. 19:13″He was clothed with a robe, dipped in blood and His name is The Word of God.
verse 16 And He had on His robe and His thigh a name written:” KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.
I think we all know that it is Jesus…..
So why is it so hard to grasp that Jesus was in Heaven with His Father before He emptied Himself and became a man for us to save us from eternal death.
Philippians 2:5-7
John 8:58 Jesus says this…”Assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.”
and in
John 6:38 “For I have come down from Heaven, not to do My will, but the will of Him who send Me.”
verse 39 “This is the will of the Father who send Me, that of all He has given Me, I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.
verse 40
“And this is the will of Him who send Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up on the last day.”
Now if you deny these Scriptures, you are calling Jesus a liar, and you hurt me not one little bit….
Also in
John 17:5 He tells us that
“And now O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.”

Ask yourself what is Jesus now. I think we all believe that He is seated at the right hand of the Father and is a Spirit Being. And that is what He was before the world was.
Ask God to give you wisdom and believe what the Scriptures tell you, don't believe me….I did not write them…. it is Jesus talking…..
Peace and love Irene

March 18, 2010 at 12:24 am#183781

Participant

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 18 2010,10:02)

Marty

Quote (942767 @ Mar. 16 2010,18:14)

No WJ:

Not arguing, a servant of the Lord must not strive, but be gentle apt to teach.

Good! Then why disagree with the scriptures? Jesus claim is that “HE” came down from heaven and is not from “Beneath” but from “Above” and that he is not of this world, therefore he is able to choose us “out of this world” how clear is that?

Quote (942767 @ Mar. 16 2010,18:14)

And so, your point is that Jesus said he came down from heaven and that he was going back to heaven.

No that is Jesus point…

And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; **I AM FROM ABOVE** (NOT I AM GODS PLAN FROM ABOVE): ye are of this world; **I AM NOT OF THIS WORLD**. John 8:23

AT Robertson states…

I am from above (egw ek twn anw eimi).
The contrast is COMPLET IN ORIGIN AND CHARACTER, already stated in (John) 3:31, and calculated to intensify their anger.

“HE THAT COMETH FROM ABOVE” is above all: “he that is of the earth is earthly“, and speaketh of the earth: “HE THAT COMETH FROM ABOVE” is above all. John 3:31

Why do you not believe him?

Quote (942767 @ Mar. 16 2010,18:14)

And so, tell me how he came down from heaven.

Is the “he” that he is speaking of refer to his body, his soul and his spirit?

That should be pretty obvious to you at this point. Phil 2:6-8, John 1:1, 14

Quote (942767 @ Mar. 16 2010,18:14)

Quote

Hebrews 1

1God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

2Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

This says “by whom also he(God) made the worlds, and

Quote

Genesis 1
1In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

Ok, and just how did he do that by Jesus if he was not there? The writer didn’t’ say “by his plan, which is Jesus he made the worlds” did he? He said…

…BY WHOM ALSO HE MADE THE WORLDS;

Then he confirms it in verse 10 of the same chapter through Jesus own hands!

Quote (942767 @ Mar. 16 2010,18:14)

And 1 Peter states that Jesus was fore-ordained:

Quote

18Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;

19But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

20Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

So what, he was “foreordained before the foundation of the world”, of course it was ordained by the Father and prophesied of his coming into the world. What does that prove? It doesn’t negate Jesus coming into this world, of which he was not of and returning back to where he came from, does it?

And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which “I had (Greek echō = to have [hold] in the hand) with thee” before the world was. John 17:3

There is that nasty word that you guys don't like again, “I“. Not the Fathers plan or spoken words!

Here we see the Greek word for **had** is in the 'active voice' meaning that Jesus literally was holding the Fathers Glory! Not some plan that cannot act on its own!

Quote (942767 @ Mar. 16 2010,18:14)

12Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:

13Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

14In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
15Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
16For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
17And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
18And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
19For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;
20And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

Did you notice that the words “by the Plan or thoughts” all things were created are not there?

How about…

Who is the image of the invisible God, the FIRSTBORN of every creature: (Gr = Firstborn of All Creation) verse 15

AT Robertson states…

The use of this word does not show what Arius argued that Paul regarded Christ as a creature like “all creation” (pash ktisew, by metonomy the act regarded as result). It is rather the comparative (superlative) force of prwto that is used (first-born of all creation) as in Colossians 1:18 ; Romans 8:29 ; Hebrews 1:6 ; Hebrews 12:23 ; Revelation 1:5 . Paul is here refuting the Gnostics who pictured Christ as one of the aeons by placing him before “all creation” (angels and men).” Like eikwn we find prwtotoko in the Alexandrian vocabulary of the Logo teaching (Philo) as well as in the LXX. Paul takes both words to help express the deity of Jesus Christ in his relation to the Father as eikwn (Image) and to the universe as prwtotoko (First-born).

Quote (942767 @ Mar. 16 2010,18:14)

Quote

Hebrews 1:10 (King James Version)
10And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:

Why would God have to tell Jesus that he laid the foundation of the earth and that the heavens were the work of his hand? This can only mean that Jesus was the reason that God created every thing.

Marty, is it really that important for you to deny the clear meaning of the text in order to support you suppositions? Why would the Father speak of the works of “Jesus hands” if Jesus wasn’t there?

Quote (942767 @ Mar. 16 2010,18:14)

Otherwise, would Jesus not have known that he created every thing himself?

Who says he didn’t know? It was John and Paul that wrote about “all things being made by him and without him nothing came into being”! John 1:3 – Col 1:16, 17 – Heb 1:2, 10 It was Jesus that gave them the Revelation by the Holy Spirit! Do you think the Holy Spirit knew this and Jesus didn't?

He was in the world, and “THE WORLD WAS MADE BY HIM”, and the world knew him not. John 1:10

Quote (942767 @ Mar. 16 2010,18:14)

Jesus exists now, and thank God that he does, but no, he did not pre-exist as a sentient person before his birth into this world.

That is your opinion and not the opinion of the scriptures or the Apostles!

Blessings WJ

No, my Friend WJ:

I am not arguing with scripture, and I am not arguing with you either. Only, I do not agree with your intretation of scripture.

The scriptures are clear that Jesus came from heaven. His body was conceived by the Holy Ghost in the womb of the virgin Mary. (You know the scriptures), and the Word of God that he obeyed also came from heaven as it was the Father dwelling within him that was speaking to humanity through him and that he was obeying.

I also am not of this world. I am in this world just as he was in the world but he was not of this world and neither am I.

Quote

John 17:14I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world

And you say that Hebrews 1:10 is a clear statement that Jesus hands created everything, but then you say that Jesus was in the form of God by virtue of your misinterpretation of Phillipians 2:6. God does not have any literal hands. The scripture state that He is a Spirit. And so, God was speaking to him in the flesh and referring to his hands in that present moment of time, and as I said before there would not be any need for God to tell him this if he already knew that he created everything. And Hebrews 1:2 indicates that He(God) created every thing, and so how does this lend to a clear statement that Jesus pre-existed?

John 1:1 The “Logos” was with God in the beginning. God had a plan before the world was created and that plan was to make man in his own image. God made the first man like Himself in that the man was a living soul, with a mind and a free will and emotions, and the Last Adam was made to be the express image of God's person through obedience to His Word.

You quote the following to support your suppostion that Jesus pre-existed, but the verse says the world was made by him. God made the worlds and every thing in them with him in mind.

Quote

John 1:10He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not

Where does this verse say that he pre-existed his birth into this world.

The following verse states that Word of God was made flesh:

Quote

14And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

And the information in the brackets tell us that this is speaking of when Jesus was conceived of the Holy Ghost, and born into this world from the virgin Mary.

Quoting from Philippians 2:

Quote

3Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves.

4Look not every man on his own things, but every man also on the things of others.

5Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

6Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

7But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

8And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

9Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

By these scriptures the Apostle Paul was using Jesus to show us the example we should follow in humility. Verse 6 is present tense “being in the form of God”, and is speaking of His ministry on this earth as God's Christ, and not in some pre-existing condition.

What Apostle came out and said that Jesus pre-existed?

The Apostle Peter said that he was fore-ordained, and my opinion that Jesus did not pre-exist as a sentient person is based on this scripture along with my understanding of the scriptures in general.

And so, here is what one Apostle said:

Quote

John 1:18Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;

19But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

20Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

As for the quote from A.T. Robertson, he is stating his opinion, and so why would you want to quote him as if he were an Apostle?

Love in Christ,
Marty

March 18, 2010 at 12:53 am#183786

GeneBalthrop

Participant

To All…………Joh 10:36…..> Say ye of Him whom the FATHER Has Santified, (to (make) holy) as He did with Jesus at the JORDAN by His Baptism there) and sent him into the world, Thou blasphemest; because i said At he Baptism of Jesus. he became a son of GOD.”Thou are my beloved SON (THIS DAY) I HAVE BEGOTTEN YOU”. This all happened after his berth on earth, Not in some preexistent Past before he was born on earth. IMO

peace and love………………….gene

March 18, 2010 at 1:10 am#183790

Participant

Hi t8:

And this in context:

Quote

56Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.

57Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?

58Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

He did not say anything about seeing Abraham. They misunderstood him. He said “Abraham desired to see my day and he saw it and was glad.” Abraham saw his day by “faith” in what God had promised him, and so, again this does not say he pre-existed. He did exist in the plan of God to bring him forth in the fulness of time. Fore-ordained yes, but no not pre-existing in some other form. His day was when he came forth into this world. This is what Abraham saw.

And this one:

Quote

Revelation 22:16
I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star

Looking up the definition of the word “root”, and appears to mean the same thing as “offspring”, but we do know that by Psalm 110 David saw Jesus as his Lord by the Spirit.

Anything else that I did not address, simply means that Jesus was fore-ordained.

And so, I am not arguing with scripture, but I do differ in my interpretation of the scriptures if you insist that Jesus pre-existed as a sentient person.

Love in Christ,
Marty

March 18, 2010 at 3:55 am#183821

Participant

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Mar. 18 2010,12:53)

peace and love………………….gene

Gene! You left out what it also said in King James Bible
John 10:36
do you say of Him, whom the Father sanctified and SEND INTO THE WORLD. You are blaspheming, because I said, I am the Son of God.
John 5:38 :For I have come down from Heaven not to do My own will, but the will of Him who send Me.
verse 39 “This is the will of the Father who send Me, that of whom ……..
verse 40And this is the will of Him who send Me…….
Rev, 19:13″He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is, The Word of God.
verse 16 And on His robe and on His thigh a name is written:”

KING OF KIN GS AND LORDS OF LORDS.

We all know who that is…….
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word and the Word was God……
verse 14 and the Word became flesh and dwelt among us.

To all why is it so hard to understand that Jesus who was the Spoken Word of God was with the Father before the World was, John 17:5
If the Word was intellect like you Gene want to believe is that what He is now? Because that is what He said He would do, go back to what He was with His Father before the world was…….

He became a servant ….
Read the story starting in verse 6 of Philippians 2

And then we have Col. 1:15-17 and
verse 18 tells us that He was also the firstborn of the death, so that in all He may have preeminence. First in all.
And Rev. 3:14
How many Scriptures are you and Marty going to deny??
Or maybe I should say interpret they way you like them to look like……
Peace and Love Irene

March 18, 2010 at 4:02 am#183823

Participant

Quote (942767 @ Mar. 18 2010,12:24)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 18 2010,10:02)

Marty

Quote (942767 @ Mar. 16 2010,18:14)

No WJ:

Not arguing, a servant of the Lord must not strive, but be gentle apt to teach.

Quote (942767 @ Mar. 16 2010,18:14)

And so, your point is that Jesus said he came down from heaven and that he was going back to heaven.

No that is Jesus point…

And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; **I AM FROM ABOVE** (NOT I AM GODS PLAN FROM ABOVE): ye are of this world; **I AM NOT OF THIS WORLD**. John 8:23

AT Robertson states…

I am from above (egw ek twn anw eimi).
The contrast is COMPLET IN ORIGIN AND CHARACTER, already stated in (John) 3:31, and calculated to intensify their anger.

“HE THAT COMETH FROM ABOVE” is above all: “he that is of the earth is earthly“, and speaketh of the earth: “HE THAT COMETH FROM ABOVE” is above all. John 3:31

Why do you not believe him?

Quote (942767 @ Mar. 16 2010,18:14)

And so, tell me how he came down from heaven.

Is the “he” that he is speaking of refer to his body, his soul and his spirit?

That should be pretty obvious to you at this point. Phil 2:6-8, John 1:1, 14

Quote (942767 @ Mar. 16 2010,18:14)

Quote

Hebrews 1

1God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

2Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

This says “by whom also he(God) made the worlds, and

Quote

Genesis 1
1In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

Ok, and just how did he do that by Jesus if he was not there? The writer didn’t’ say “by his plan, which is Jesus he made the worlds” did he? He said…

…BY WHOM ALSO HE MADE THE WORLDS;

Then he confirms it in verse 10 of the same chapter through Jesus own hands!

Quote (942767 @ Mar. 16 2010,18:14)

And 1 Peter states that Jesus was fore-ordained:

Quote

18Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;

19But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

20Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which “I had (Greek echō = to have [hold] in the hand) with thee” before the world was. John 17:3

There is that nasty word that you guys don't like again, “I“. Not the Fathers plan or spoken words!

Here we see the Greek word for **had** is in the 'active voice' meaning that Jesus literally was holding the Fathers Glory! Not some plan that cannot act on its own!

Quote (942767 @ Mar. 16 2010,18:14)

12Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:

13Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

Did you notice that the words “by the Plan or thoughts” all things were created are not there?

How about…

Who is the image of the invisible God, the FIRSTBORN of every creature: (Gr = Firstborn of All Creation) verse 15

AT Robertson states…

The use of this word does not show what Arius argued that Paul regarded Christ as a creature like “all creation” (pash ktisew, by metonomy the act regarded as result). It is rather the comparative (superlative) force of prwto that is used (first-born of all creation) as in Colossians 1:18 ; Romans 8:29 ; Hebrews 1:6 ; Hebrews 12:23 ; Revelation 1:5 . Paul is here refuting the Gnostics who pictured Christ as one of the aeons by placing him before “all creation” (angels and men).” Like eikwn we find prwtotoko in the Alexandrian vocabulary of the Logo teaching (Philo) as well as in the LXX. Paul takes both words to
help express the deity of Jesus Christ in his relation to the Father as eikwn (Image) and to the universe as prwtotoko (First-born).

Quote (942767 @ Mar. 16 2010,18:14)

Quote

Hebrews 1:10 (King James Version)
10And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:

Why would God have to tell Jesus that he laid the foundation of the earth and that the heavens were the work of his hand? This can only mean that Jesus was the reason that God created every thing.

Quote (942767 @ Mar. 16 2010,18:14)

Otherwise, would Jesus not have known that he created every thing himself?

He was in the world, and “THE WORLD WAS MADE BY HIM”, and the world knew him not. John 1:10

Quote (942767 @ Mar. 16 2010,18:14)

Jesus exists now, and thank God that he does, but no, he did not pre-exist as a sentient person before his birth into this world.

That is your opinion and not the opinion of the scriptures or the Apostles!

Blessings WJ

No, my Friend WJ:

I am not arguing with scripture, and I am not arguing with you either. Only, I do not agree with your intretation of scripture.

I also am not of this world. I am in this world just as he was in the world but he was not of this world and neither am I.

Quote

John 17:14I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world

You quote the following to support your suppostion that Jesus pre-existed, but the verse says the world was made by him. God made the worlds and every thing in them with him in mind.

Quote

John 1:10He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not

Where does this verse say that he pre-existed his birth into this world.

The following verse states that Word of God was made flesh:

Quote

14And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

And the information in the brackets tell us that this is speaking of when Jesus was conceived of the Holy Ghost, and born into this world from the virgin Mary.

Quoting from Philippians 2:

Quote

3Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves.

4Look not every man on his own things, but every man also on the things of others.

5Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

6Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

7But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

8And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

9Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

What Apostle came out and said that Jesus pre-existed?

The Apostle Peter said that he was fore-ordained, and my opinion that Jesus did not pre-exist as a sentient person is based on this scripture along with my understanding of the scriptures in general.

And so, here is what one Apostle said:

Quote

John 1:18Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;

19But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

20Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

As for the quote from A.T. Robertson, he is stating his opinion, and so why would you want to quote him as if he were an Apostle?

Love in Christ,
Marty

Marty You might not be arguing with Scripture, but you are certainly denying Scriptures. Many Scriptures, not just one…..Take them all and study them…..I did a long time ago. I was just like you and said Oh, no…….But God did not leave me in that way…….And also it has nothing to do with the trinity. Jesus had a beginning….He did not always existed.
Irene

March 18, 2010 at 4:11 am#183825

Jodi Lee

Participant

Irene, how did your pre-existent Jesus become a Son of God?… how was he perfected?

If we are to be raised as Jesus before he was Jesus, why all this human business?….why weren't we just made like he was THROUGH the SAME process he was made?

and could you tell me exactly when and what it was exactly that came down from heaven that morphed into Mary's womb?

How do you explain Jesus being made in Mary's womb of the seed of David through the Holy Spirit and coming down from heaven literally?

What literally came down from heaven?

Was the spirit son you believe in a man before he came down from heaven, if not, what was he and what was his name?

Also, you say “spirit being” as in relating to what Jesus went back to, but those words are not found in scripture, could you elaborate on what that means, and show us through scripture?

March 18, 2010 at 5:26 am#183833

kerwin

Participant

Terricca wrote:

Quote

i follow your logic and it does not stand against what T8 says

Please! I am voicing contempt in this answer. Then when and where does scripture tell us that Jesus was born? Does or does not scripture tell us that Abraham is Jesus’ ancestor? Are you afraid to answer those questions because it makes you look foolish for interpreting Jesus’ words according to a lie told long ago? I hardly see why since all humans, except Jesus, are fooled at times. But please do not let your embarrassment prevent you from embracing the truth that you too fell for Satan’s snares. Instead change your ways.

Terricca wrote:

Quote

and if you want to use the expression that the scriptures are false in any way ,then i say you do not have any faith to stand on.

I do not in any way say scripture is false. I rather state that T8’s interpretation of scripture, though perhaps understandable for one not completely familiar with scripture, is a lie and a snare set by the evil one.

Terricca wrote:

Quote

so show your scriptures views, versus the scriptures view of T8 and let go from there and see.

I did do that. I pointed out the obvious flaw in T8’s interpretation and then went on to express a possible alternative interpretation. We know that Jesus spoke in riddles that even left those students nearest to him stumped at times, John 2:19-22.

My alternative interpretation rest on the scripture in Hebrews 11:40, which teaches us that Abraham and the others that came before the second covenant were only made perfect with those who were born anew under the new covenant. In this way we can say Abraham was “born” under the new covenant and that believers are “baptized for the dead.” I assure you that Jesus was before the new covenant came to be.

You may take my response at harsh but I assure your that I care about you and worded my response according to that care. It is the ideas and not you I voice my contempt for.

March 18, 2010 at 6:34 am#183837

Participant

Quote (Jodi Lee @ Mar. 18 2010,16:11)

Irene, how did your pre-existent Jesus become a Son of God?… how was he perfected?

If we are to be raised as Jesus before he was Jesus, why all this human business?….why weren't we just made like he was THROUGH the SAME process he was made?

and could you tell me exactly when and what it was exactly that came down from heaven that morphed into Mary's womb?

How do you explain Jesus being made in Mary's womb of the seed of David through the Holy Spirit and coming down from heaven literally?

What literally came down from heaven?

Was the spirit son you believe in a man before he came down from heaven, if not, what was he and what was his name?

Also, you say “spirit being” as in relating to what Jesus went back to, but those words are not found in scripture, could you elaborate on what that means, and show us through scripture?

Jodi! I am not God and I did not write those Scriptures. Take it up with them….I will forever defend Scriptures rather then men. And Scriptures tell me that Jesus was the Word in the beginning and became flesh. With God all is possible. How He was brought forth is not revealed. Only that He did come down from Heaven John 6:38-40
When I read a Scripture like Rev. 19:13 I have to admit that it is Jesus that is revealed there. And I will. If anybody else does not, then they are missing out on the truth.
Rev. 19:13 again
“He was clothed in a robe dipped in blood and His name is The Word of God.
verse 16 And on His robe and thigh is a name written:”
KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.”

We all know it is Jesus. There is no other being that fits this verse….
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word and the Word was God.
verse 14 and the Word became flesh…..
Just these Scriptures is plain as can be and you and Gene want forever ignore them, why. Is it behind you to say I was wrong???
He was the firstborn of all creation. Rev. and Col. talks about that. And then it says that before Abraham. I was.
All those Scriptures and still you will deny and deny…..
Again how God created Jesus and brought Him forth is not revealed, but Scriptures say so and I will defend it forever……..
When Jesus became a man, He became like a servant
Philippians talks about that in the second Chapter startring in verse5 read it….
Irene

March 18, 2010 at 6:53 am#183841

Jodi Lee

Participant

Quote (Elizabeth @ Mar. 18 2010,18:34)

Quote (Jodi Lee @ Mar. 18 2010,16:11)

Irene, how did your pre-existent Jesus become a Son of God?… how was he perfected?

If we are to be raised as Jesus before he was Jesus, why all this human business?….why weren't we just made like he was THROUGH the SAME process he was made?

and could you tell me exactly when and what it was exactly that came down from heaven that morphed into Mary's womb?

How do you explain Jesus being made in Mary's womb of the seed of David through the Holy Spirit and coming down from heaven literally?

What literally came down from heaven?

Was the spirit son you believe in a man before he came down from heaven, if not, what was he and what was his name?

Also, you say “spirit being” as in relating to what Jesus went back to, but those words are not found in scripture, could you elaborate on what that means, and show us through scripture?

So YOU can't tell me what came down from heaven?

I will tell you, the Son of Man, who was promised to come.

and who is returning? Some spirit being?…NO, the SON OF MAN!!

March 18, 2010 at 9:32 am#183849

Participant

Quote (Jodi Lee @ Mar. 18 2010,18:53)

Quote (Elizabeth @ Mar. 18 2010,18:34)

Quote (Jodi Lee @ Mar. 18 2010,16:11)

Irene, how did your pre-existent Jesus become a Son of God?… how was he perfected?

If we are to be raised as Jesus before he was Jesus, why all this human business?….why weren't we just made like he was THROUGH the SAME process he was made?

and could you tell me exactly when and what it was exactly that came down from heaven that morphed into Mary's womb?

How do you explain Jesus being made in Mary's womb of the seed of David through the Holy Spirit and coming down from heaven literally?

What literally came down from heaven?

Was the spirit son you believe in a man before he came down from heaven, if not, what was he and what was his name?

Also, you say “spirit being” as in relating to what Jesus went back to, but those words are not found in scripture, could you elaborate on what that means, and show us through scripture?

So YOU can't tell me what came down from heaven?

I will tell you, the Son of Man, who was promised to come.

and who is returning? Some spirit being?…NO, the SON OF MAN!!

A Man went back to Heaven, Jesus as a man? Are you kidding me.
John 17:5 tells it differently.

He had a glory with the Father before the worlds was, and to that glory He went back to.
Flesh and blood cannot enter the Kingdom of God. What is that glory that He had with the Father before the world was. Flesh? no. In John 1:1 He was the Word first and then He became flesh. Scripture would not have to say that if He was flesh already in Heaven… That is poor nonsense. Now you are grasping for straws. You also asking really stupid question like what was His name….. Rev. tells us His name is The Word of God. You don't believe that? If God gave Him some other name it is not known or revealed. And it does not matter. He is The Word of God. That is not good enough for you….? well to bad….You seem not to understand that God had to send His only begotten Son to save us. Another Human being would have sinned. Jesus was not just a mere man, that to is a myth. He knew where He came from , otherwise He could have never said what He did in John 17:5
Irene

March 18, 2010 at 3:36 pm#183854

Participant

Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 18 2010,17:26)

Terricca wrote:

Quote

i follow your logic and it does not stand against what T8 says

Terricca wrote:

Quote

and if you want to use the expression that the scriptures are false in any way ,then i say you do not have any faith to stand on.

Terricca wrote:

Quote

so show your scriptures views, versus the scriptures view of T8 and let go from there and see.

You may take my response at harsh but I assure your that I care about you and worded my response according to that care. It is the ideas and not you I voice my contempt for.

first;the scriptures (OT)is full of Gods announcement of the coming of Christ,like this;Ps 98:1 Sing to the LORD a new song,
for he has done marvelous things;
his right hand and his holy arm(Christ)(the Word)
have worked salvation for him.

Isa 30:30 The LORD will cause men to hear his majestic voice
and will make them see his arm coming down
with raging anger and consuming fire,
with cloudburst, thunderstorm and hail.

Isa 40:10 See, the Sovereign LORD comes with power,
and his arm rules for him.
See, his reward is with him,
and his recompense accompanies him

Isa 50:2 When I came, why was there no one?
When I called, why was there no one to answer?
Was my arm too short to ransom you?
Do I lack the strength to rescue you?

Isa 51:5 My righteousness draws near speedily,
my salvation is on the way,
and my arm will bring justice to the nations

Isa 52:10 The LORD will lay bare his holy arm
in the sight of all the nations,
and all the ends of the earth will see
the salvation of our God.

Isa 53:1 Who has believed our message
and to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?

Isa 59:1 Surely the arm of the LORD is not too short to save,
nor his ear too dull to hear.

Isa 62:8 The LORD has sworn by his right hand
and by his mighty arm:
“Never again will I give your grain
as food for your enemies,
and never again will foreigners drink the new wine
for which you have toiled;

Isa 63:12 who sent his glorious arm of power
to be at Moses’ right hand,
who divided the waters before them,
to gain for himself everlasting renown,

IS THIS iSA;63;12 NOT WHAT CHRIST CAME TO DO TO DIVIDE THE PEOPLE IN TWO ,THE ONE WHO COME TO THE LIGHT AND THE ONES WHO DONT.

HIS GOD RIGH ARM A MAN?? NO HE IS NOT,HE IS LIKE JOHN SAYS HE IS THE WORD OF GOD,THE SON OF THE LIVING GOD,

WHO CAME DOWN FROM HEAVEN,TO SERVE GOD CREATION,BECAUSE MEN HAD FAIL TO OBEY HIS WILL ,AND WAS NOW CORRUPT,NO MAN ON THIS PLANET COULD EVER BE MADE GOOD FOR THE RANSOM.

IT HAD TO COMING FROM ABOVE,

BUT THERE ARE TO MANY THOMAS 'S UNLESS WE SEE AND TOUCH WE WILL NOT BELIEVE ,

SO THEY WANT TO SEE AND TOUCH WHIT THE EYES AND HANDS OF THE FLESH.

“HAPPY ARE THE ONES WHO DO NOT SEE AND BELIEVE”

SEE AND TOUCH WITH THE SPIRIT OF TRUTH FROM ABOVE.

THIS IS MY ANSWER TO YOU FOR NOW.

March 18, 2010 at 4:53 pm#183857

kerwin

Participant

terraricca,

I agree with you that the Old Testament often testifies about the coming of Jesus. I want to point out to you that some of that was “hidden” in scriptures so it could only be understood through hindsight. Judas betrayal was one such event as was Jesus being called out of Egypt as a child.

Jesus spoke in parables which I would call riddles quite often and not necessary when expected. His students even remarked on this in John 16:29 and he himself tells about it in John 16:25.

God himself also used riddles to communicate though he would communicate more clearly with some such as Mosses. Numbers 12:8

You should take this into consideration when interpreting scripture.

His follows also speak in riddles at times but they are also clear spoken at other times. To decipher these “riddles” you need to focus on the things of God.

Here is a scripture that may help in this situation.

James 1:17(NKJV) reads:

Quote

Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and comes down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shadow of turning.

Jesus is a good and perfect gift from God.

March 18, 2010 at 5:17 pm#183860

Participant

Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 19 2010,04:53)

terraricca,

Jesus spoke in parables which I would call riddles quite often and not necessary when expected. His students even remarked on this in John 16:29 and he himself tells about it in John 16:25.

God himself also used riddles to communicate though he would communicate more clearly with some such as Mosses. Numbers 12:8

You should take this into consideration when interpreting scripture.

His follows also speak in riddles at times but they are also clear spoken at other times. To decipher these “riddles” you need to focus on the things of God.

Here is a scripture that may help in this situation.

James 1:17(NKJV) reads:

Quote

Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and comes down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shadow of turning.

Jesus is a good and perfect gift from God.

Christ gift is from God because he allowed his Word to become flesh on earth to serve as ransom for men,

and so save the human race from the sin of Adam.

March 18, 2010 at 5:30 pm#183863

kerwin

Participant

Terricca wrote:

Quote

Christ gift is from God because he allowed his Word to become flesh on earth to serve as ransom for men,

and so save the human race from the sin of Adam.

I agree that God said let the Anointed One be and Jesus was conceived of the line of David. I also agree that Jesus lives a life of righteousness even though he was tempted even as we are. For that act of righteousness the evil one put him to death. For Jesus choice to die in righteousness sin was condemned with sinful men that those that obeyed all his teachings are rescued from the results of Adam's sin.

March 18, 2010 at 9:31 pm#183881

Participant

Quote (terraricca @ Mar. 19 2010,05:17)

Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 19 2010,04:53)

terraricca,

Jesus spoke in parables which I would call riddles quite often and not necessary when expected. His students even remarked on this in John 16:29 and he himself tells about it in John 16:25.

God himself also used riddles to communicate though he would communicate more clearly with some such as Mosses. Numbers 12:8

You should take this into consideration when interpreting scripture.

His follows also speak in riddles at times but they are also clear spoken at other times. To decipher these “riddles” you need to focus on the things of God.

Here is a scripture that may help in this situation.

James 1:17(NKJV) reads:

Quote

Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and comes down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shadow of turning.

Jesus is a good and perfect gift from God.

Christ gift is from God because he allowed his Word to become flesh on earth to serve as ransom for men,

and so save the human race from the sin of Adam.

terriacca! The Word is not the Fathers Word. It is Jesus. Did the Father in verse 14 bcome flesh or did the Word become flesh that was named Jesus as a Human being. When He was with the Father and in
Rev. 19:13 His name is The Word of God. This is what it says again:” He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God.
verse 16 And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written:
KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.

I think we all know who that is, Jesus our Savior and King of Kings and Lord of Lords.
Irene

March 18, 2010 at 9:54 pm#183885

Participant

Quote (Elizabeth @ Mar. 19 2010,09:31)

Quote (terraricca @ Mar. 19 2010,05:17)

Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 19 2010,04:53)

terraricca,

Jesus spoke in parables which I would call riddles quite often and not necessary when expected. His students even remarked on this in John 16:29 and he himself tells about it in John 16:25.

God himself also used riddles to communicate though he would communicate more clearly with some such as Mosses. Numbers 12:8

You should take this into consideration when interpreting scripture.

His follows also speak in riddles at times but they are also clear spoken at other times. To decipher these “riddles” you need to focus on the things of God.

Here is a scripture that may help in this situation.

James 1:17(NKJV) reads:

Quote

Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and comes down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shadow of turning.

Jesus is a good and perfect gift from God.

Christ gift is from God because he allowed his Word to become flesh on earth to serve as ransom for men,

and so save the human race from the sin of Adam.

I think we all know who that is, Jesus our Savior and King of Kings and Lord of Lords.
Irene

Irene

the” word” is Jesus i am sorry if i did not make it more evident.but since the arm is Jesus and also the word so i figure it was enough.

March 18, 2010 at 9:56 pm#183886

Participant

Hi Mrs:

You say to terriacca:

Quote

The Word is not the Fathers Word. It is Jesus.

Mrs. you are trying to force us to believe what you have apparently misunderstood. The above statement proves it.

When the scriptures state, “The Word was made flesh”, they are speaking of the prophetic Word of God pertaining to Jesus being conceived by the Holy Ghost in the womb of the virgin Mary.

I am not going to argue with you. I already know what you believe, and if you want to go on believing that Jesus pre-existed go right ahead, but quit trying to force me to believe and understand the scriptures the way that you do. I do not. I believe that he was fore-ordained not that he pre-existed.

And he is at the right hand of the Father still as a man but with a spiritual body. No blood in this body.

Here is what the scripture states:

Quote

1 Timothy 2:5For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

The scripture states that the mediator is a man, and that the man is Jesus.

Love in Christ,
Marty

March 18, 2010 at 10:23 pm#183889

Participant

Quote (942767 @ Mar. 19 2010,09:56)

Hi Mrs:

You say to terriacca:

Quote

The Word is not the Fathers Word. It is Jesus.

Mrs. you are trying to force us to believe what you have apparently misunderstood. The above statement proves it.

When the scriptures state, “The Word was made flesh”, they are speaking of the prophetic Word of God pertaining to Jesus being conceived by the Holy Ghost in the womb of the virgin Mary.

And he is at the right hand of the Father still as a man but with a spiritual body. No blood in this body.

Here is what the scripture states:

Quote

1 Timothy 2:5For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

The scripture states that the mediator is a man, and that the man is Jesus.

Love in Christ,
Marty

Marty

Irene should know that i believe in the preexistence of Jesus,

my quotes testify to that,

what you say is true about Jesus but that does not eliminate that he was beside God before being or becoming Jesus.

and this for multi reasons.

March 18, 2010 at 10:59 pm#183895