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Don't forget this one though.
John 17:5
And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.And those verses you quote do fit with Jesus having glory with the Father before the world began because Jesus emptied and humbling himself to be lower than the angels as a real flesh human being and then dying, to being raised up into glory.
So God could easily have given him all these things after because Jesus emptied himself and was after all a man like us.
Quote (thethinker @ Mar. 12 2010,07:53) WorshippingJesus said to Marty: Quote The Greek Grammar does not allow for the lies of the Unitarian and their false assumptions that Jesus did not preexist his appearing in the flesh!
Right on brother! Jodi Lee and Marty deny the truth!thinker
The problem with Worshipping Jesus' arguments is that the ideas behind the grammar are Hebrew and not Greek and I assure you the Jew of that period did not reason as the Greek did.As for preexistance there was and is a school of thought that all unborn children preexist their birth and that these preexistent human entities dwell in the Seventh Heven where God's throne is also located.
That should be considered when analysing and deducing what scripture is teaching us.
I cannot say for certain whether the students of Jesus would have considered thay Jewish myth or an inspired fact.
To all! If Jesus says that He came from Heaven will you believe Him?
John 6:38 ” For I have come down from Heaven not to do My will, but the will of Him who send Me.”
verse 39 “This is the will of the Father who send Me, that of all He has given Me I should not lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.
This is so clear along with other Scriptures that if I have God's Holy Spirit, I would understand it. Jesus came from Heaven and the Father send Him. He is not just a plan in His mind, He was there as a Spirit being. That is the glory that He had before the world was John 17:5.
John 8:58 Jesus said to them,”Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham, I was.”
John 3:17 Here it says that God send His Son not into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
John 1:1 therefore is not just a plan either it is a real Person, the one that became flesh in verse 14, Jesus. A plan cannot become flesh.
Rev, 19:13 “He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. Is it any plainer…
verse 16 And He has on His robe and His thigh a name written:” KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.”
We all know who that is, right? No question about that is there? Jesus was with His Father from the beginning before the world was.
Proverbs 8:22-30 these verses do not mean that it is wisdom speaking. Can wisdom be what it says in verse 30? No.
Peace and Love IreneTo all! If Jesus says that He came from Heaven will you believe Him?
John 6:38 ” For I have come down from Heaven not to do My will, but the will of Him who send Me.”
verse 39 “This is the will of the Father who send Me, that of all He has given Me I should not lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.
This is so clear along with other Scriptures that if I have God's Holy Spirit, I would understand it. Jesus came from Heaven and the Father send Him. He is not just a plan in His mind, He was there as a Spirit being. That is the glory that He had before the world was John 17:5.
John 8:58 Jesus said to them,”Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham, I was.”
John 3:17 Here it says that God send His Son not into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
John 1:1 therefore is not just a plan either it is a real Person, the one that became flesh in verse 14, Jesus. A plan cannot become flesh.
Rev, 19:13 “He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. Is it any plainer…
verse 16 And He has on His robe and His thigh a name written:” KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.”
We all know who that is, right? No question about that is there? Jesus was with His Father from the beginning before the world was.
Proverbs 8:22-30 these verses do not mean that it is wisdom speaking. Can wisdom be what it says in verse 30? No.
Peace and Love IreneSorry I double posted. t8 if you see this will you erase it? Thank you
Irene wrote:
Quote To all! If Jesus says that He came from Heaven will you believe Him?
I believe that his Spirit, otherwise known as the Holy Spirit comes from heaven.
As for his flesh and soul they come from the same every other human beings comes from which is to say the hand of God.
Do you believe Jesus is a human being just like other human beings?
Irene,
Your chosen interpretation of John 8:58 puts you in contradiction to scripture which states Jesus is the son of David and everyone knows the son does not exist before the father.
Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 12 2010,17:45) Irene wrote: Quote To all! If Jesus says that He came from Heaven will you believe Him?
I believe that his Spirit, otherwise known as the Holy Spirit comes from heaven.
As for his flesh and soul they come from the same every other human beings comes from which is to say the hand of God.
Do you believe Jesus is a human being just like other human beings?
kerwin You better that again, because I did not say that the Holy Spirit came from Heaven. What I did say is that Jesus was a Spirit Being when He was with the Father. Don't put words in my mouth I never said, that makes me mad. Got it …Also what I do believe that some that are here on this site do not have God's Holy Spirit. Otherwise they would not make mistakes like that….Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 12 2010,17:48) Irene, Your chosen interpretation of John 8:58 puts you in contradiction to scripture which states Jesus is the son of David and everyone knows the son does not exist before the father.
Not at all, because Jesus emptied Himself and became like a servant, to do the will of His Father. If you would read all you would maybe get it…Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 12 2010,17:48) Irene, Your chosen interpretation of John 8:58 puts you in contradiction to scripture which states Jesus is the son of David and everyone knows the son does not exist before the father.
That is almost funny, what did you say? His Son did not exist before His Father? Who said that? Not I… The Father God always existed. You are losing your mind…If you are talking about David.
He was not His real Father either, was He? His real Father is God. He is the Son of God.
Quote (Elizabeth @ Mar. 12 2010,13:09) Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 12 2010,17:48) Irene, Your chosen interpretation of John 8:58 puts you in contradiction to scripture which states Jesus is the son of David and everyone knows the son does not exist before the father.
That is almost funny, what did you say? His Son did not exist before His Father? Who said that? Not I… The Father God always existed. You are losing your mind…If you are talking about David.
He was not His real Father either, was He? His real Father is God. He is the Son of God.
According to Scripture David is the father of Jesus and God is the Father of all mankind.Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 12 2010,18:24) Quote (Elizabeth @ Mar. 12 2010,13:09) Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 12 2010,17:48) Irene, Your chosen interpretation of John 8:58 puts you in contradiction to scripture which states Jesus is the son of David and everyone knows the son does not exist before the father.
That is almost funny, what did you say? His Son did not exist before His Father? Who said that? Not I… The Father God always existed. You are losing your mind…If you are talking about David.
He was not His real Father either, was He? His real Father is God. He is the Son of God.
According to Scripture David is the father of Jesus and God is the Father of all mankind.
Oh, He is not the Son of God?
? SHHHHHHHHHHHH you could have fooled me….We are the adopted Son's of God, while Jesus is the real Son of God….What Scripture??? Irene,
Here are the scriptures:
Luke 3:21-37(NIV) reads:
Quote When all the people were being baptized, Jesus was baptized too. And as he was praying, heaven was opened and the Holy Spirit descended on him in bodily form like a dove. And a voice came from heaven: “You are my Son, whom I love; with you I am well pleased.”
Now Jesus himself was about thirty years old when he began his ministry. He was the son, so it was thought, of Joseph,
the son of Heli, the son of Matthat,
the son of Levi, the son of Melki,
the son of Jannai, the son of Joseph,
the son of Mattathias, the son of Amos,
the son of Nahum, the son of Esli,
the son of Naggai, the son of Maath,
the son of Mattathias, the son of Semein,
the son of Josech, the son of Joda,
the son of Joanan, the son of Rhesa,
the son of Zerubbabel, the son of Shealtiel,
the son of Neri, the son of Melki,
the son of Addi, the son of Cosam,
the son of Elmadam, the son of Er,
the son of Joshua, the son of Eliezer,
the son of Jorim, the son of Matthat,
the son of Levi, the son of Simeon,
the son of Judah, the son of Joseph,
the son of Jonam, the son of Eliakim,
the son of Melea, the son of Menna,
the son of Mattatha, the son of Nathan,
the son of David, 32the son of Jesse,
the son of Obed, the son of Boaz,
the son of Salmon, the son of Nahshon,
the son of Amminadab, the son of Ram,
the son of Hezron, the son of Perez,
the son of Judah, the son of Jacob,
the son of Isaac, the son of Abraham,
the son of Terah, the son of Nahor,
the son of Serug, the son of Reu,
the son of Peleg, the son of Eber,
the son of Shelah, the son of Cainan,
the son of Arphaxad, the son of Shem,
the son of Noah, the son of Lamech,
the son of Methuselah, the son of Enoch,
the son of Jared, the son of Mahalalel,
the son of Kenan, the son of Enosh,
the son of Seth, the son of Adam,
the son of God.and
Matthew 1:1-17(NIV) reads:
Quote A record of the genealogy of Jesus Christ the son of David, the son of Abraham:
Abraham was the father of Isaac,
Isaac the father of Jacob,
Jacob the father of Judah and his brothers,
Judah the father of Perez and Zerah, whose mother was Tamar,
Perez the father of Hezron,
Hezron the father of Ram,
Ram the father of Amminadab,
Amminadab the father of Nahshon,
Nahshon the father of Salmon,
Salmon the father of Boaz, whose mother was Rahab,
Boaz the father of Obed, whose mother was Ruth,
Obed the father of Jesse,
and Jesse the father of King David.
David was the father of Solomon, whose mother had been Uriah's wife,
Solomon the father of Rehoboam,
Rehoboam the father of Abijah,
Abijah the father of Asa,
Asa the father of Jehoshaphat,
Jehoshaphat the father of Jehoram,
Jehoram the father of Uzziah,
Uzziah the father of Jotham,
Jotham the father of Ahaz,
Ahaz the father of Hezekiah,
Hezekiah the father of Manasseh,
Manasseh the father of Amon,
Amon the father of Josiah,
and Josiah the father of Jeconiah[a] and his brothers at the time of the exile to Babylon.
After the exile to Babylon:
Jeconiah was the father of Shealtiel,
Shealtiel the father of Zerubbabel,
Zerubbabel the father of Abiud,
Abiud the father of Eliakim,
Eliakim the father of Azor,
Azor the father of Zadok,
Zadok the father of Akim,
Akim the father of Eliud,
Eliud the father of Eleazar,
Eleazar the father of Matthan,
Matthan the father of Jacob,
and Jacob the father of Joseph, the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.Thus there were fourteen generations in all from Abraham to David, fourteen from David to the exile to Babylon, and fourteen from the exile to the Christ
So according to scripture Jesus is the son of God through Adam, Abraham, and David all who proceeded him as they are his ancestors.
You are clearly contradicting scripture.
No I am not> I am reading the Scriptures the way they are written. Jesus is the Son of God, He was brought forth by the Father and He did so before the world was. What you are doing is denying those Scriptures that I have given. He was in Heaven with the Father before the world was. That what Scriptures say. All others came after Him. That's all for me, you just like Jodi and Gene, ignore ignore ignore. He was before Abraham was. And before all others that you quote. One more thing, In Genesis who is us and our? You can't even tell me what these Scriptures I gave mean…..That's all….
Quote (Elizabeth @ Mar. 12 2010,16:19) No I am not> I am reading the Scriptures the way they are written. Jesus is the Son of God, He was brought forth by the Father and He did so before the world was. What you are doing is denying those Scriptures that I have given. He was in Heaven with the Father before the world was. That what Scriptures say. All others came after Him. That's all for me, you just like Jodi and Gene, ignore ignore ignore. He was before Abraham was. And before all others that you quote. One more thing, In Genesis who is us and our? You can't even tell me what these Scriptures I gave mean…..That's all….
Irene,Perehaps you misunderstand what is writen. I displayed for you what Jesus' geneology states and it clearly states Jesus is the Son of David.
Jesus is also the Son of Abraham through David and the Son of Adam through Abraham.
It is through the line of Adam, which is the line of mankind, that Jesus is the Son of God.
Luke 3 and Matthew 1 makes that clear.
So when you speak of geneology the case is as I laid it out.
If instead you wish to speak of relationship through the spirit of righteousness the scripture states:
John 1:12-13(NIV) reads:
Quote Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God.
and
Romans 8:15(NIV) reads:
Quote For you did not receive a spirit that makes you a slave again to fear, but you received the Spirit of sonship. And by him we cry, “Abba, Father.”
and
Galatians 4:6(NIV) reads:
Quote Because you are sons, God sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, the Spirit who calls out, “Abba, Father.”
One should be careful not to confuse natural decent, i.e. genology, with relationship via the spirit of righteousness.
Abraham is Jesus's ancestor through natural decent and thus was born before Jesus was. As this was the case he is only together with us made perfect and thus a son through the spirit of righteousness. In this way Jesus is before Abraham, as he is the firstborn of a new creation.
Kerwin You don't understand that that was when Jesus emptied Himself and became a Human being, That has nothing to do with His preexisting before He became a man. That is what you don't understand. It clearly states that He came down from Heaven. If Jesus did not do so, He could not have said so. And we know also that He went back to Heaven with the glory He had with His Father before the world was. And that is were He went back to.. Now if you believe that He was not a Spirit being, did He then go back as not a a Spirit Being. You know that is not true. What you want me to believe that He was not with His Father before the world was, And that is not according to Scripture. That is what you don't seem to understand. There are to many Scriptures to ignore that for me.
If you only take the Scripture in John 1:1 and then compare it with the Scripture in Rev. 19:13 you can see that the Word is Jesus. He became flesh in verse 14. I will not deny that,. Along with all other Scriptures I gave. I am not going through them again. Check out the post I made and read it with an open mind, rather then with your preconceived idea.
When Jesus said that He came from Heaven, would He not have to know if He was there or not. When you say I came from Florida, where you not there? Abraham was not born before Jesus was. Or I should say the Word, He was the Spoken Word of God. In Rev, 19:13 it explains that.
Col. 1:15-17
Rev, 3:14
John 1:1
John 3:17
John 6:38-40
John 8:58
John 17:5
All these Scriptures you want me to ignore? No my friend, you should really sit down and take all of these Scriptures and see how they relate with each other….
Not only was Jesus the firstborn of all creation, He also was the firstborn of the dead. Col 1:18 So that in all things He may have preeminence. Meaning He was the firstborn of all creation and firstborn of the death…..
What you are doing when you say He said that Abraham was born before Jesus was. Are you not calling Jesus a liar. Because It is His words not mine….that state that “before Abraham I was.” Jesus words. You know I had a hard time with this too at first, but God did not leave me in that unbelief and now I know it with all of my heart, I will never ignore it again.
IreneIrene wrote:
Quote Abraham was not born before Jesus was
As far as natural decent Abraham was born before Jesus as Jesus is his descendant.
As far as the relationship through the Spirit of righteousness it was only after Jesus died and was resurrected that Abraham was made perfect and Jesus is the first born of the Spirit. That is why it is written:
Hebrews 11:39-40(NIV) reads:
Quote These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised. God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect.
Are you forgetting it is written?
John 3:3(NIV) reads:
Quote In reply Jesus declared, “I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again. “
Before anyone is born again Jesus is.
Jesus is a Jew and prone to speak in myticisms which seem confuse the mind of many. One example of this is when he called himself the bread from heaven.
Quote (t8 @ Mar. 12 2010,11:54) Quote (Jodi Lee @ Mar. 02 2010,04:25) Once again I ask that someone here please explain, through scripture, what was this GLORY that an immortal creature had before becoming a human being, and then show through scripture where it speaks of Jesus going BACK to this glory?
One thing you need to realise before even having to explain this, is that if the glory is as you say it is, then we can make the same claim too. So will your last words be “And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began”? If yes, what do you think the hearers would think? That you were a plan?Now what is the glory? I would say it is the Father's glory. As the Word which is Jesus, was WITH the Father.
Matthew 16:27
For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father's glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what he has done.Mark 8:38
If anyone is ashamed of me and my words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man will be ashamed of him when he comes in his Father's glory with the holy angels.”Romans 6:4
We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.And finally we have this pearl.
John 17:24
“Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world.Now think about that. If you said that you loved your child before 1990, then as a side note, you would just assume that your child was born before that year would you not?
t8,First of all, how is the glory spoken of in the scriptures which I posted, “how I say it is’?… is it not what the scriptures say it is?
Second the list of scriptures you gave are not speaking of the glory Jesus Christ received, but the glory of the Father, so you have still not answered my question or even come close.
YES we can make the same claim, as scripture tells us we share Christ’s glory. It is amazing to me that what I find to be one of the focal aspects of the gospel truth, you and others do not grasp.
Romans 8:16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, then heirs–heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together………29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.
1 Corinthians 15:16 For if the dead do not rise, then Christ is not risen. 17 And if Christ is not risen, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins! 18 Then also those who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. 19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men the most pitiable. 20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.……38 But God gives it a body as He pleases, and to each seed its own body. 39 All flesh is not the same flesh, but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of animals, another of fish, and another of birds. 40 There are also celestial bodies and terrestrial bodies; but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. 41 There is one glory of the sun, another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for one star differs from another star in glory. 42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption. 43 It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. 44 It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45 And so it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. 46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual. 47 The first man was of the earth, made of dust; the second Man is the Lord from heaven. 48 As was the man of dust, so also are those who are made of dust; and as is the heavenly Man, so also are those who are heavenly.
Jesus was raised in glory receiving a spiritual body of incorruption and we as well are promised the SAME. This was a Promise made by the Father before time began.
Titus 1:2 in hope of eternal life which God, who cannot lie, promised before time began,
Romans 9:9 For this is the word of promise: “At this time I will come and Sarah shall have a son.” 10 And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, even by our father Isaac 11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls),
2 Timothy 1:9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began,
I did in fact love my children long before they were born. Even when I was very young, I imagined having my own kids and I imagined loving them to pieces! The whole reason I had children was because I was waiting to give them the love I knew I already had to give them. But I find it rather silly to compare myself in this manner with God, for in His case with His powers He can actually see who His children are even before they are born, where I could only imagine them. YHWH can see the exact future because He is the Power who IS creating it.
God MUST HAVE loved us before we were born or else He would have never created us, which is exactly WHY He promised us Eternal Life even before He created Adam and Eve.
God calls who He wills, not according to works but according to His election. God loved mankind before time began because He knew that His CALLING would produce the Heavenly MAN. And this is what irritates me, the Son of God’s love is the MAN Jesus, and it is this man raised from the dead that heaven and earth were created for in the beginning, and this MAN is the firstborn of many brethren. The Son of God's love was not some immortal spirit son who became Jesus. Heaven and earth were created for the HUMAN King who is the offspring of David, but is the root of David for He sits as King over him. And if Jesus is King we too our heirs with him and many are being called to be Kings and priests to rule with him.
2 Thess 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth, 14 to which He called you by our gospel, for the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught,
whether by word or our epistle. 16 Now may our Lord Jesus Christ Himself, and our God and Father, who has loved us and given us everlasting consolation and good hope by grace, 17 comfort your hearts and establish you in every good word and work.Yes t8, JESUS humbled himself and emptied himself. The PERSON who’s NAME is Jesus,the MAN born from Mary’s womb, after receiving God’s Holy Spirit with all it’s powers, HE HUMBLED himself and HE emptied himself, for HE did not use God’s powers that were given to him for himself, instead he made himself a SERVANT unto God and unto us.
When people see THE NAME JESUS and equate it in the scripture with a pre-existent being they are grossly distorting the truth IMO, they change the entire content of the scriptures meaning. The NAME Jesus should ALWAYS be equated with the MAN born of Mary that was raised from the dead and was made into the first heavenly man, of the many heavenly men that are to come.
t8,
As previously mentioned you did not explain what the GLORY was Jesus was asking for prior to his death that he had before the world was.
What scripture tells us directly was that Jesus received eternal life as a human being, a body of glory of incorruptible flesh!! What scripture tells us directly is that the Father promised eternal life to human beings before time began. As well, the MAN Jesus we are also told was promised before time began to one day come and be a savior.
Obviously you do not believe these scriptures are lies, but it would in fact seem that you and others conveniently disregard them in giving Jesus Christ his identity.
I ask again what is the glory JESUS had before the world was?
Please note, I am asking what glory JESUS had, not the glory that some immortal spirit son had, but the person who's NAME is in fact Jesus, the MAN who was promised to come and be a savior, THAT JESUS!
Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 12 2010,00:10) The problem with Worshipping Jesus' arguments is that the ideas behind the grammar are Hebrew and not Greek and I assure you the Jew of that period did not reason as the Greek did.
KerwinThe problem that you have is you are denying the inspired words of the Apostles who were also “JEWS” and who wrote these words in Koine Greek and spoke the language!
Blessings WJ
Quote (Jodi Lee @ Mar. 13 2010,02:27) Quote (t8 @ Mar. 12 2010,11:54) Quote (Jodi Lee @ Mar. 02 2010,04:25) Once again I ask that someone here please explain, through scripture, what was this GLORY that an immortal creature had before becoming a human being, and then show through scripture where it speaks of Jesus going BACK to this glory?
One thing you need to realise before even having to explain this, is that if the glory is as you say it is, then we can make the same claim too. So will your last words be “And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began”? If yes, what do you think the hearers would think? That you were a plan?Now what is the glory? I would say it is the Father's glory. As the Word which is Jesus, was WITH the Father.
Matthew 16:27
For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father's glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what he has done.Mark 8:38
If anyone is ashamed of me and my words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man will be ashamed of him when he comes in his Father's glory with the holy angels.”Romans 6:4
We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.And finally we have this pearl.
John 17:24
“Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world.Now think about that. If you said that you loved your child before 1990, then as a side note, you would just assume that your child was born before that year would you not?
t8,First of all, how is the glory spoken of in the scriptures which I posted, “how I say it is’?… is it not what the scriptures say it is?
Second the list of scriptures you gave are not speaking of the glory Jesus Christ received, but the glory of the Father, so you have still not answered my question or even come close.
YES we can make the same claim, as scripture tells us we share Christ’s glory. It is amazing to me that what I find to be one of the focal aspects of the gospel truth, you and others do not grasp.
Romans 8:16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, then heirs–heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together………29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.
1 Corinthians 15:16 For if the dead do not rise, then Christ is not risen. 17 And if Christ is not risen, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins! 18 Then also those who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. 19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men the most pitiable. 20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.……38 But God gives it a body as He pleases, and to each seed its own body. 39 All flesh is not the same flesh, but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of animals, another of fish, and another of birds. 40 There are also celestial bodies and terrestrial bodies; but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. 41 There is one glory of the sun, another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for one star differs from another star in glory. 42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption. 43 It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. 44 It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45 And so it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. 46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual. 47 The first man was of the earth, made of dust; the second Man is the Lord from heaven. 48 As was the man of dust, so also are those who are made of dust; and as is the heavenly Man, so also are those who are heavenly.
Jesus was raised in glory receiving a spiritual body of incorruption and we as well are promised the SAME. This was a Promise made by the Father before time began.
Titus 1:2 in hope of eternal life which God, who cannot lie, promised before time began,
Romans 9:9 For this is the word of promise: “At this time I will come and Sarah shall have a son.” 10 And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, even by our father Isaac 11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls),
2 Timothy 1:9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began,
I did in fact love my children long before they were born. Even when I was very young, I imagined having my own kids and I imagined loving them to pieces! The whole reason I had children was because I was waiting to give them the love I knew I already had to give them. But I find it rather silly to compare myself in this manner with God, for in His case with His powers He can actually see who His children are even before they are born, where I could only imagine them. YHWH can see the exact future because He is the Power who IS creating it.
God MUST HAVE loved us before we were born or else He would have never created us, which is exactly WHY He promised us Eternal Life even before He created Adam and Eve.
God calls who He wills, not according to works but according to His election. God loved mankind before time began because He knew that His CALLING would produce the Heavenly MAN. And this is what irritates me, the Son of God’s love is the MAN Jesus, and it is this man raised from the dead that heaven and earth were created for in the beginning, and this MAN is the firstborn of many brethren. The Son of God's love was not some immortal spirit son who became Jesus. Heaven and earth were created for the HUMAN King who is the offspring of David, but is the root of David for He sits as King over him. And if Jesus is King we too our heirs with him and many are being called to be Kings and priests to rule with him.
2 Thess 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth,
14 to which He called you by our gospel, for the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our epistle. 16 Now may our Lord Jesus Christ Himself, and our God and Father, who has loved us and given us everlasting consolation and good hope by grace, 17 comfort your hearts and establish you in every good word and work.Yes t8, JESUS humbled himself and emptied himself. The PERSON who’s NAME is Jesus,the MAN born from Mary’s womb, after receiving God’s Holy Spirit with all it’s powers, HE HUMBLED himself and HE emptied himself, for HE did not use God’s powers that were given to him for himself, instead he made himself a SERVANT unto God and unto us.
When people see THE NAME JESUS and equate it in the scripture with a pre-existent being they are grossly distorting the truth IMO, they change the entire content of the scriptures meaning. The NAME Jesus should ALWAYS be equated with the MAN born of Mary that was raised from the dead and was made into the first heavenly man, of the many heavenly men that are to come.
t8,
As previously mentioned you did not explain what the GLORY was Jesus was asking for prior to his death that he had before the world was.
What scripture tells us directly was that Jesus received eternal life as a human being, a body of glory of incorruptible flesh!! What scripture tells us directly is that the Father promised eternal life to human beings before time began. As well, the MAN Jesus we are also told was promised before time began to one day come and be a savior.
Obviously you do not believe these scriptures are lies, but it would in fact seem that you and others conveniently disregard them in giving Jesus Christ his identity.
I ask again what is the glory JESUS had before the world was?
Please note, I am asking what glory JESUS had, not the glory that some immortal spirit son had, but the person who's NAME is in fact Jesus, the MAN who was promised to come and be a savior, THAT JESUS!
Jodi………it is amazing they Just don't get it. Jesus is one of US he always WAS ONE OF US in (EVERY WAY) He did not preexisted his berth on earth except in the foreordained plan and will of God. Peter said it plainly.1 Pe 1:20….> Who verily was (foreordained) before the foundations of the world (BUT) was (manifested) in these last times for you. 21..> Who by him do believe (IN GOD), that raised him up from the dead, and (GAVE) Him (GLORY) ; Why? That your faith and hope might be (IN GOD).
Seems the apostles Knew to HOPE IN GOD, and knew when Jesus recieved his foreordained GLORY. Jesus life as a (MAN) and FROM MAN and Changed BY GOD into a SON of GOD , gives US that HOPE of the (SAME) thing happening to us also by the same way it happened to Jesus. That our HOPE might be (IN GOD)>
Like i said Jody, “they just do not get it”.
PEACE AND LOVE TO YOU AND YOURS………………GENE
Quote (942767 @ Mar. 11 2010,19:16) Did he exist as the Son of man before his birth? No, he did not. He explains by saying he is speaking of eating the words that he is speaking and not his literal flesh, but the flesh was necessary for him to accomplish what God intended from the beginning of creation.
MartyYour words disagrees with Jesus claim!
What and if ye shall see the Son of man “ascend up **WHERE HE WAS BEFORE**”? John 6:62
John 6:38-40
For “I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will“, but the will of him who sent me; and this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up at the last day. For this is the will of my Father, that every one who sees the Son and believes in him should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.It is obvious what Jesus meant, but men who know nothing of the construction of the Greek have set out to make themselves greater than the truth by misinterpreting the clear meaning of the text in which the authors intended and which the translators translated.
The Greek construction of the text concerning the preexistence of Jesus does not allow for a “Unitarian” interpretation.
The Greek for “I have come” is Strong's G2597 – katabainō which is defined…
1) to go down, come down, descend
a) the place from which one has come down from
b) to come down“In every place the word is used it is referring to a literal action by a person and not an abstract “thought or plan”“.
katabainō is in the “perfect” tense, and the “active voice” and the “indicative” mood!
“The perfect tense” in Greek corresponds to the perfect tense in English, and describes “an action” which is viewed as having been completed in the past, once and for all, not needing to be repeated.
Jesus' last cry from the cross, TETELESTAI (“It is finished!”) is a good example of the perfect tense used in this sense, namely “It [the atonement] has been accomplished, completely, once and for all time.”
Certain antiquated verb forms in Greek, such as those related to seeing (eidw) or knowing (oida) will use the perfect tense in a manner equivalent to the normal past tense. These few cases are exception to the normal rule and do not alter the normal connotation of the perfect tense stated above.
“The active voice” represents the subject as the doer or performer of the action. e.g., in the sentence, “The boy hit the ball,” the boy performs the action.
“The indicative mood” is a simple statement of fact. If an action really occurs or has occurred or will occur, it will be rendered in the indicative mood.
”For I came down (katabainō) from heaven”, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. John 6:38
The same word is used here…
And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God “descending (katabainō,)” like a dove, and lighting upon him: Matt 3:16
And here…
And, behold, there was a great earthquake: for the angel of the Lord “(descended (katabainō )” from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat upon it. Matt 28:2
Was the Holy Spirit and the Angel a “thought or plan” that came down from heaven? Or did they really descend from heaven?
Blessings WJ
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