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Marty
the begining of creation is not started with man or the earth ,wen it says “before all creation “that is before even God made the planets,but just after the WORD (Jesus)was created ,that is why Christ says that ,and that is true.
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Feb. 25 2010,15:39) Marty………Amen Brother, They just don't get it. Jesus did no preexist His berth on earth except in the (FOREORDAINED) plan and will of GOD, He is the First born into the kingdom of GOD from mankind. Just as Peter stated “For he was Foreordained (BUT) was Manifested in our time”. peace and love to you and yours……………………..gene
Correct. We don't get it.We get:
Colossians 1:17
He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.John 1:3
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.John 8:58
“I tell you the truth,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!”Revelation 22:16
“I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.”Jude 1:25
to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.John 1:15
15 John testifies concerning him. He cries out, saying, “This was he of whom I said, 'He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.' “John 17:5
And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.Colossians 1:15-16
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.The above you do not get.
It is hard for some to try to understand how He could possibly pre-exist. But its easy once you think about it from a simple point of view.
Spirit= becomes flesh
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. (John 1;3)And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea,
and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. (Genisis 1;26)Then the LORD God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might stretch out his hand,
and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever “(Genisis 3;22)“Come, let Us go down and there confuse their language, so that they will not understand one another's speech.”(Genisis 11;7)
“The glory I had with you before the world was” (Jn. 17:5)
Quote (t8 @ Feb. 25 2010,05:48) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Feb. 25 2010,15:39) Marty………Amen Brother, They just don't get it. Jesus did no preexist His berth on earth except in the (FOREORDAINED) plan and will of GOD, He is the First born into the kingdom of GOD from mankind. Just as Peter stated “For he was Foreordained (BUT) was Manifested in our time”. peace and love to you and yours……………………..gene
Correct. We don't get it.We get:
Colossians 1:17
He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.John 1:3
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.John 8:58
“I tell you the truth,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!”Revelation 22:16
“I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.”Jude 1:25
to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.John 1:15
15 John testifies concerning him. He cries out, saying, “This was he of whom I said, 'He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.' “John 17:5
And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.Colossians 1:15-16
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.The above you do not get.
t8Amen!
So clear!
Blessings WJ
Please DEFINE the GLORY that this pre-existent being had before the world was, using scripture, and show then how Jesus the man received it back, using scripture?
Before the world was we are told in scripture that God had glory planned for mankind, this GLORY we are told was the promise of Eternal Life. Before the world was Jesus Christ, the MAN, was promised to come and bring eternal life.
The GLORY that the MAN Jesus received was the fulfillment of the Promise that was made in the beginning, Eternal Life.
Scripture declares that Jesus IS the MAN with incorruptible flesh and bones, which is PRECISELY the GLORY that was in the beginning with God.
Can you people at least ADMIT to the PROMISES that God made in the beginning, and profess that indeed a man was planned before time began to be a savior, and that a promise was made to give eternal life to human beings?
Titus 1:2 in hope of eternal life which God, who cannot lie, promised before time began,
2 Timothy 1:9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began,
1 Peter 1:19 but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot. 20 He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you 21 who through Him believe in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God.
John 17:16 Of the world they are not, as I of the world am not; 17 sanctify them in Thy truth, Thy word is truth; 18 as Thou didst send me to the world, I also did send them to the world; 19 and for them do I sanctify myself, that they also themselves may be sanctified in truth. 20 `And not in regard to these alone do I ask, but also in regard to those who shall be believing, through their word, in me; 21 that they all may be one, as Thou Father art in me, and I in Thee; that they also in us may be one, that the world may believe that Thou didst send me. 22 `And I, the glory that thou hast given to me, have given to them, that they may be one as we are one;
Jesus was not from this world, he was from heaven, meaning he was from God via the gift of God's Spirit, and God SENT him out into the world “being from heaven” to teach the Gospel, to heal the sick, AND Jesus calls those that were being promised the Spirit, as not being from this world, they too are FROM HEAVEN and were SENT out into the world, each with a gift from the Spirit.
Listen to what this is saying, “who through him believe in God, who raised him from the dead and gave him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God.”
This is speaking to those who were made aware of the promises God had made that had existed before the beginning of time, their faith and hope were in God because they believed God was fulfilling His promises. If God did indeed raise Jesus then that would give them their faith and hope that God would be giving them the SAME GLORY!! God promised eternal life for man, Jesus is the firstborn from the dead OF MANY brethren, THAT IS HIS GLORY!!!
Romans 8:29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Once again I ask that someone here please explain, through scripture, what was this GLORY that an immortal creature had before becoming a human being, and then show through scripture where it speaks of Jesus going BACK to this glory?
T8……..So why don't you believe Jesus is also GOD as WJ and the REST of the TRINITARIANS DO?, Out of one side or your mouth you say Jesus CREATED EVERYTHING, and Scripture plainly Say GOD Himself and Alone created the worlds and everything in it. But then you deny Jesus is a GOD, Why don't you just become a TRINITARIAN Like WJ and Thinker, why stand with each foot in a different boat. All the quotes you have posted have been answered many times Here so i am not going to answer them again , if you do not consider those answers then what good is it? , But in my opinion T8, you could not be more wrong in this.
peace and love to you and yours………………..gene
gene
HI GENE WERE IS THAT SCRIPTURE THAT SAYS
; and Scripture plainly Say GOD Himself and Alone created the worlds and everything in it. But then you deny Jesus is a GOD, WhyGroup: Members
Posts: 4199
Joined: June 2007 Posted: Feb. 26 2010,05:17——————————————————————————–
T8……..So why don't you believe Jesus is also GOD as WJ and the REST of the TRINITARIANS DO?, Out of one side or your mouth you say Jesus CREATED EVERYTHING, don't you just become a TRINITARIAN Like WJ and Thinker, why stand with each foot in a different boat. All the quotes you have posted have been answered many times Here so i am not going to answer them again , if you do not consider those answers then what good is it? , But in my opinion T8, you could not be more wrong in this.peace and love to you and yours………………..gene
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——————————————————————————–Quote (Jodi Lee @ Feb. 26 2010,05:15) Please DEFINE the GLORY that this pre-existent being had before the world was, using scripture, and show then how Jesus the man received it back, using scripture? Before the world was we are told in scripture that God had glory planned for mankind, this GLORY we are told was the promise of Eternal Life. Before the world was Jesus Christ, the MAN, was promised to come and bring eternal life.
The GLORY that the MAN Jesus received was the fulfillment of the Promise that was made in the beginning, Eternal Life.
Scripture declares that Jesus IS the MAN with incorruptible flesh and bones, which is PRECISELY the GLORY that was in the beginning with God.
Can you people at least ADMIT to the PROMISES that God made in the beginning, and profess that indeed a man was planned before time began to be a savior, and that a promise was made to give eternal life to human beings?
Titus 1:2 in hope of eternal life which God, who cannot lie, promised before time began,
2 Timothy 1:9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began,
1 Peter 1:19 but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot. 20 He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you 21 who through Him believe in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God.
John 17:16 Of the world they are not, as I of the world am not; 17 sanctify them in Thy truth, Thy word is truth; 18 as Thou didst send me to the world, I also did send them to the world; 19 and for them do I sanctify myself, that they also themselves may be sanctified in truth. 20 `And not in regard to these alone do I ask, but also in regard to those who shall be believing, through their word, in me; 21 that they all may be one, as Thou Father art in me, and I in Thee; that they also in us may be one, that the world may believe that Thou didst send me. 22 `And I, the glory that thou hast given to me, have given to them, that they may be one as we are one;
Gospel, to heal the sick, AND Jesus calls those that were being promised the Spirit, as not being from this world, they too are FROM HEAVEN and were SENT out into the world, each with a gift from the Spirit.Listen to what this is saying, “who through him believe in God, who raised him from the dead and gave him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God.”
This is speaking to those who were made aware of the promises God had made that had existed before the beginning of time, their faith and hope were in God because they believed God was fulfilling His promises. If God did indeed raise Jesus then that would give them their faith and hope that God would be giving them the SAME GLORY!! God promised eternal life for man, Jesus is the firstborn from the dead OF MANY brethren, THAT IS HIS GLORY!!!
Romans 8:29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Once again I ask that someone here please explain, through scripture, what was this GLORY that an immortal creature had before becoming a human being, and then show through scripture where it speaks of Jesus going BACK to this glory?
Jodi………AS i said they just don't get it Jodi, They have bought the LIE taught by THE TRINITY APOSTATE CHURCHES. PREEXISTENCE OF JESUS AS A BEING IS JUST ABOUT AS BIG A LIE AS HIM BEING VERY GOD HIMSELF, BECAUSE IT SUPPORTS THE PREMISE OF A GOD MAN. They do not have ONE Scripture that states Jesus Preexisted His berth on earth as an KIND of BEING, If So them they need to post them, and T8 saying it say Jesus was BORN before ABRAHAM in a complete conjecture. The word (BORN) is not even in the text. Forcing texts to make it say what in fact does not say is wrong. IMOpeace and love to you and yours Jodi………………gene
Matthew 1:20 But while he thought about these things, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, “Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take to you Mary your wife, for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit. 21 And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins.” 22 So all this was done that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the Lord through the prophet, saying: 23 “Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel,” which is translated, “God with us.”
The Word that was spoken to the prophets was speaking of the coming Jesus. The Father spoke to the prophets about a man who would be to Him a son. The above does not represent a pre-existent Jesus speaking about the coming of himself morphed into a human being.
Jesus was not the Word in the OT, Jesus was the person spoken about IN the Word of the Father that was given to the prophets.
The Word Spoken to the prophets then became flesh, for the word was fulfilled in Jesus Christ.Matthew 2:14 When he arose, he took the young Child and His mother by night and departed for Egypt, 15 and was there until the death of Herod, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the Lord through the prophet, saying, “Out of Egypt I called My Son.”
The Fathers WORDS became fulfilled. Jesus was IN the Words of God, he was not some pre-existing being speaking for God.
Matthew 2:17 Then was fulfilled what was spoken by Jeremiah the prophet, saying: 18 “A voice was heard in Ramah, Lamentation, weeping, and great mourning, Rachel weeping for her children, Refusing to be comforted, Because they are no more.” 19 But when Herod was dead, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared in a dream to Joseph in Egypt, 20 saying, “Arise, take the young Child and His mother, and go to the land of Israel, for those who sought the young Child's life are dead.”
Matthew 2:23 And he came and dwelt in a city called Nazareth, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophets, “He shall be called a Nazarene.”
Jesus was spoken about IN the Word of God.
Matthew 4:14 that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Isaiah the prophet, saying: 15 “The land of Zebulun and the land of Naphtali, By the way of the sea, beyond the Jordan, Galilee of the Gentiles: 16 The people who sat in darkness have seen a great light, And upon those who sat in the region and shadow of death Light has dawned.” 17 From that time Jesus began to preach and to say, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.”
Matthew 8:17 that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Isaiah the prophet, saying: “He Himself took our infirmities And bore our sicknesses.”
Matthew 12:17 that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Isaiah the prophet, saying: 18 “Behold! My Servant whom I have chosen, My Beloved in whom My soul is well pleased! I will put My Spirit upon Him, And He will declare justice to the Gentiles.
Luke 24:44 Then He said to them, “These are the words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things must be fulfilled which were written in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms concerning Me.” 45 And He opened their understanding, that they might comprehend the Scriptures. 46 Then He said to them, “Thus it is written, and thus it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead the third day, 47 and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. 48 And you are witnesses of these things. 49 Behold, I send the Promise of My Father upon you; but tarry in the city of Jerusalem until you are endued with power from on high.” 50 And He led them out as far as Bethany, and He lifted up His hands and blessed them. 51 Now it came to pass, while He blessed them, that He was parted from them and carried up into heaven.
Jesus was not the Word, as in he was some immortal creature speaking to the prophets, he was the person in the FLESH that the WORD had been spoken ABOUT.
Hebrews 1:1 God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, 2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds;
The Father spoke to the prophets revealing to them of a coming man who would be a savior. The prophets spoke the Words of the Father. Jesus, the man born of Mary, spoke the words of the Father revealing that he was the man of whom the prophets spoke about. David, a prophet, spoke concerning a man of his seed who would be given an eternal kingdom, David spoke of a man that would be appointed heir of all things, a human being who’s flesh would not see corruption. The Father made heaven and earth because of and for this MAN.
Acts 1: 16 “Men and brethren, this Scripture had to be fulfilled, which the Holy Spirit spoke before by the mouth of David concerning Judas, who became a guide to those who arrested Jesus; 17 for he was numbered with us and obtained a part in this ministry.”
The Holy Spirit SPOKE to David, a pre-existing Jesus did not. As well it was the Holy Spirit that contains God’s Wisdom that created heaven and earth in the beginning.
Acts 3:18 But those things which God foretold by the mouth of all His prophets, that the Christ would suffer, He has thus fulfilled. 19 Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, 20 and that He may send Jesus Christ, who was preached to you before, 21 whom heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things, which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began. 22 For Moses truly said to the fathers, 'The Lord your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from your brethren. Him you shall hear in all things, whatever He says to you. 23 And it shall be that every soul who will not hear that Prophet shall be utterly destroyed from among the people.' 24 Yes, and all the prophets, from Samuel and those who follow, as many as have spoken, have also foretold these days. 25 You are sons of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying to Abraham, 'And in your seed all the families of the earth shall be blessed.' 26 To you first, God, having raised up His Servant Jesus, sent Him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from your iniquities.”
Heaven received the man who was raised with incorruptible flesh. This MAN was preached since the world began.
Jesus was not some pre-existing being that spoke the covenant to the fathers. Jesus was the MAN of the covenant.Acts 13:32 And we declare to you glad tidings—that promise which was made to the fathers. 33 God has fulfilled this for us their children, in that He has raised up Jesus. As it is also written in the second Psalm: 'You are My Son, Today I have begotten You.' 34 And that He raised Him from the dead, no more to return to corruption, He has spoken thus: 'I will give you the sure mercies of David.' 35 Therefore He also says in another Psalm: 'You will not allow Your Holy One to see corruption.' 36 “For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell asleep, was buried with his fathers, and saw corruption; 37 but He whom God raised up saw no corruption. 38 Therefore let it be known to you, brethren, that through this Man is preached to you the forgiveness of sins;
Quote (Jodi Lee @ Feb. 22 2010,16:13) Hi CA, Would you mind telling me what it is you believe that I have claimed regarding the origin of the NT scriptures?
Certainly.It is obvious that you cannot substantiate for certain WHAT books belong in Sacred Scripture. For example, how do you KNOW Philemon belongs in Scripture?
When was the Canon of Scripture defined? For what purpose?
If you could answer these questions, you would have to admit fault and become Catholic.
Terraricca…… God created everything HIMSELF,
Isa 42: 5 Thus saith GOD the LORD, (HE) that created the heavens, and scratched them out; (HE) that spread forth the earth, and that which cones out of it; (HE) that giveth breath unto the people upon it and Spirit to them that walk therein.
Psa 148:5 …> Let them praise the name of the LORD: FOR (HE) COMMANDED AND THEY WERE CREATED.
GOD commanded His SEVEN SPIRITS and They were created IMO
Isa 48:8……> I am the LORD: that is my name: and (MY) Glory will i (NOT) give to another, neither my praise to graven images.
Isa 44:24….> Thus says the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed you from the womb, I am the LORD that makes (ALL THINGS); that stretches forth the heavens (ALONE); that spreads abroad the earth by (MYSELF);
IS THAT CLEAR ENOUGH TERRAICCA ?
also read Isa 45: 5-12, Isa 41:20
peace and love…………..gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Feb. 26 2010,07:11) Terraricca…… God created everything HIMSELF, Isa 42: 5 Thus saith GOD the LORD, (HE) that created the heavens, and scratched them out; (HE) that spread forth the earth, and that which cones out of it; (HE) that giveth breath unto the people upon it and Spirit to them that walk therein.
Psa 148:5 …> Let them praise the name of the LORD: FOR (HE) COMMANDED AND THEY WERE CREATED.
GOD commanded His SEVEN SPIRITS and They were created IMO
Isa 48:8……> I am the LORD: that is my name: and (MY) Glory will i (NOT) give to another, neither my praise to graven images.
Isa 44:24….> Thus says the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed you from the womb, I am the LORD that makes (ALL THINGS); that stretches forth the heavens (ALONE); that spreads abroad the earth by (MYSELF);
IS THAT CLEAR ENOUGH TERRAICCA ?
also read Isa 45: 5-12, Isa 41:20
peace and love…………..gene
Gene,The new testament interprets the old. According to the Father these scriptures were speaking about His Son (Hebrews 1:8-10).
I will take the Father's interpretation over yours any old day Bub.
thinker
Lets just say you painted a piece of Art, and someone guided you in what to paint.
Then years later people debated over who did what eventually deciding YOU werent there and didnt do it, Gosh, were talking about the creation of the whole world and everything in it here.Id think its safer to believe in the trinity than to say Jesus didnt help do it.
No scripture studies would change anything like that for me.Quote (terraricca @ Feb. 25 2010,19:14) Marty the begining of creation is not started with man or the earth ,wen it says “before all creation “that is before even God made the planets,but just after the WORD (Jesus)was created ,that is why Christ says that ,and that is true.
Hi T:This is the Word:
Quote Hebrews 1 1God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (t8 @ Feb. 25 2010,21:48) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Feb. 25 2010,15:39) Marty………Amen Brother, They just don't get it. Jesus did no preexist His berth on earth except in the (FOREORDAINED) plan and will of GOD, He is the First born into the kingdom of GOD from mankind. Just as Peter stated “For he was Foreordained (BUT) was Manifested in our time”. peace and love to you and yours……………………..gene
Correct. We don't get it.We get:
Colossians 1:17
He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.John 1:3
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.John 8:58
“I tell you the truth,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!”Revelation 22:16
“I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.”Jude 1:25
to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.John 1:15
15 John testifies concerning him. He cries out, saying, “This was he of whom I said, 'He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.' “John 17:5
And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.Colossians 1:15-16
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.The above you do not get.
Hi T8:James 1
Quote 5If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. Love in Christ,
MartyTo All………Not one contradiction to the scriptures I quoted , Just dancers trying their best to dance around them. Thinker even has the brass to say the new changed or explains it properly, But yet Paul said the Bereans were more noble then those Thessalonica because they searched the (scriptures) to see if what they were hearing was true or not. THINKER JUST IN CASE YOU DID NOT KNOW this, AT THAT TIME THERE WERE (NO) NEW TESTAMENTS AVAILABLE TO SEARCH, THE WERE SEARCHING THE OLD TESTAMENT TO SEE IF WHAT THEY WERE HEARING WAS SO OR NOT. Now when did all this change to only the new can explain what GOD really means thinker.
Thinker if there is some seeming contradictions in scriptures most likely it will be in the New Testament writings , not the Old Testament. IMO.
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Feb. 26 2010,07:11) Terraricca…… God created everything HIMSELF, Isa 42: 5 Thus saith GOD the LORD, (HE) that created the heavens, and scratched them out; (HE) that spread forth the earth, and that which cones out of it; (HE) that giveth breath unto the people upon it and Spirit to them that walk therein.
Psa 148:5 …> Let them praise the name of the LORD: FOR (HE) COMMANDED AND THEY WERE CREATED.
GOD commanded His SEVEN SPIRITS and They were created IMO
Isa 48:8……> I am the LORD: that is my name: and (MY) Glory will i (NOT) give to another, neither my praise to graven images.
Isa 44:24….> Thus says the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed you from the womb, I am the LORD that makes (ALL THINGS); that stretches forth the heavens (ALONE); that spreads abroad the earth by (MYSELF);
IS THAT CLEAR ENOUGH TERRAICCA ?
also read Isa 45: 5-12, Isa 41:20
peace and love…………..gene
Gene It was Jesus that created all.
John 1:3 All things were made through Him and without Him nothing was made that was made.Col. 1:16 For by Him all things were created…….
Our Heavenly Father gave Jesus the power to do so. And in Genesis they both were there…..I have to say this, either Isaih is wrong or Col. is wrong. However we have two Scriptures that say that it was Jesus, in the New Testament. IMO though He created by the power of God the Father. So both in that sense then are right….
IreneHI GENE
there is no contradiction in the scriptures between Is;42;5 and the other Isa;;;;
let God be all over all” GOD IS THE CREATOR NO DOUGHT ABOUT IT,BUT THE SCRIPTURES TELLS US THAT HE HAD A SON ,AND TROUGH THAT SON HE CREATED ALL THINGS,SO WE COULD NOT SAY THAT CHRIST HAS NO PART INTO CREATION CAN WE?JUST THINK COULD JESUS CREATE WITHOUT HIS FATHER ???OF CAUSE NOT.
COULD GOD CREATE WITHOUT JESUS ?? YES,BUT IT WAS GOD WILL TO DO WHAT HE DID ,AND WHO ARE WE TO TELL GOD WHAT TO DO OR NOT AND HOW.
IF YOU HAVE A SPIRIT OF CONTESTING GODS WAYS ;THINK AGAIN YOU MAY REAP HIS WRATH.
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