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Quote (Jodi Lee @ Feb. 09 2010,17:38) That which came down from heaven was the Son of David, that which returned to heaven was the Son of David.
No, according to you that which came down from heaven was not the Son of David but the Holy Spirit, that sat upon Jesus (or a thought or plan of God that created Jesus)!But then you try to make us believe that the Son of David is the same Son of David which came down from heaven as the Holy Spirit (or a thought or plan) that ascended back to being a thought or plan!
A total denial of the clear language of the scriptures!
These are distortions against the truth and denys the very Greek construction of the text that claim Jesus litterally came down from heaven!
Blessings WJ
Quote (Jodi Lee @ Feb. 10 2010,09:38) John 3:1 There was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews. 2 This man came to Jesus by night and said to Him, “Rabbi, we know that You are a teacher come from God; for no one can do these signs that You do unless God is with him.” 3 Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.” 4 Nicodemus said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?” 5 Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.' Matthew 3:15 But Jesus answered and said to him, “Permit it to be so now, for thus it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness.” Then he allowed Him. 16 When He had been baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened to Him, and He saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting upon Him.
1 Corinthians 15:44 It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45 And so it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. 46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual. 47 The first man was of the earth, made of dust; the second Man is the Lord from heaven. 48 As was the man of dust, so also are those who are made of dust; and as is the heavenly Man, so also are those who are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man.
Jesus was BORN of the natural he had to fight off the carnal mind. He was tempted in all points as we are, yet he was without sin because the Spirit of God was in him. The heavenly man is the MAN raised from the dead with flesh and bones. The heavenly man is NOT the One True God, but the eternal king of David's seed.
The men who Jesus was talking to in John 8 were men who followed their carnal mind and thus were of the world. Jesus was not of the world because he did not follow his carnal mind.
WJ did you read the following scriptures?
1 Corinthians 2:4 and my word and my preaching was not in persuasive words of human wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power — 5 that your faith may not be in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God. 6 And wisdom we speak among the perfect, and wisdom not of this age, nor of the rulers of this age — of those becoming useless, 7 but we speak the hidden wisdom of God in a secret, that God foreordained before the ages to our glory, 8 which no one of the rulers of this age did know, for if they had known, the Lord of the glory they would not have crucified; 9 but, according as it hath been written, `What eye did not see, and ear did not hear, and upon the heart of man came not up, what God did prepare for those loving Him –' 10 but to us did God reveal them through His Spirit, for the Spirit all things doth search, even the depths of God, 11 for who of men hath known the things of the man, except the spirit of the man that is in him? so also the things of God no one hath known, except the Spirit of God. 12 And we the spirit of the world did not receive, but the Spirit that is of God, that we may know the things conferred by God on us, 13 which things also we speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Holy Spirit, with spiritual things spiritual things comparing, 14 and the natural man doth not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for to him they are foolishness, and he is not able to know them, because spiritually they are discerned; 15 and he who is spiritual, doth discern indeed all things, and he himself is by no one discerned; 16 for who did know the mind of the Lord that he shall instruct Him? and we — we have the mind of Christ.
To have the MIND of CHRIST is to have the MIND of an anointed MAN who has received the Spirit of the Father!!
John 17:16 `Of the world they are not, as I of the world am not; 17 sanctify them in Thy truth, Thy word is truth; 18 as Thou didst send me to the world, I also did send them to the world; 19 and for them do I sanctify myself, that they also themselves may be sanctified in truth. 20 `And not in regard to these alone do I ask, but also in regard to those who shall be believing, through their word, in me; 21 that they all may be one, as Thou Father art in me, and I in Thee; that they also in us may be one, that the world may believe that Thou didst send me. 22 `And I, the glory that thou hast given to me, have given to them, that they may be one as we are one;
2 Timothy 1:9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began,
The WORD of God which is Spirit and is Life was in the promise of a coming Christ. Once again there exists NO scripture that states that God SENT a spirit son. God SENT from heaven the PROMISE of a MAN that would bring salvation. A man who's flesh would NOT see corruption but be MADE incorruptible FLESH.
John 6:57 As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who feeds on Me will live because of Me.
Jesus is speaking of himself as a MAN not as an immortal spirit son. Jesus was saying the Father sent ME, the MAN that was promised before time began.
58This is the bread which came down from heaven--not as your fathers ate the manna, and are dead. He who eats this bread will live forever.” 59 These things He said in the synagogue as He taught in Capernaum. 60 Therefore many of His disciples, when they heard this, said, “This is a hard saying; who can understand it?” 61 When Jesus knew in Himself that His disciples complained about this, He said to them, “Does this offend you? 62 What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before? 63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.
“Where the SON of MAN was BEFORE”, not where the immortal spirit son was before, but where the “SON of MAN” was before. Did the Son of Man literally exist before?…. we know that he did in fact LIVE in the WORDS of the Father in the FORM of a PROMISE.
What saved mankind was in fact a MAN. Jesus referred to himself as the bread that came down from heaven and it was that bread that gives eternal life. Jesus gives us eternal life through being the righteous man who died on the cross. That which came down from heaven was the Son of David, that which returned to heaven was the Son of David. The promise of the seed of David came down and the promise of the seed of David went back up. For the Father said that He would send a man born of the seed of David into the world, and that seed would rise up and sit at His right hand!!!
Nowhere is Jesus or his followers trying to assert that Jesus is god the son or Jesus is the immortal spirit son. They are always trying to defend that Jesus was in fact THE CHRIST, who before tim
e began had been promised by the words of the Father to come.
Hi Jodi:You have a very good point when you bring out that Jesus stated “what if you see the Son of Man ascend where he was before” in bringing out that he said “SON OF MAN, and we know that the son of man did not exist in the flesh until his birth into this world, but he was foreordained. All things were made by God with him in mind, and so he existed in this in the heart of God.
And we know that the spirit of the Son existed with God in the beginning and we hear “the Word was with God and the Word was God”.
No, no pre-existence.
Love in Christ,
MartyMarty………Amen brother , What Jodi posted is right, Jesus was foreordained (but) was manifested (brought into existence) in our time just as Peter Said He was. It would make absolutely no sense for Jesus to Preexist His berth here on earth.
peace and ove to you and yours……………….gene
Hi all.
May I give my opinion? I realise that opinions vary, and Gene, I know you and I agree on most issues, but I'm afraid I will have to disagree with this one. Here is my take on this:In Eph.1:9-10 …9 making known to us the secret of His (God) will (in accord with His delight, which He purposed in Him)
10 to have an administration of the complement of the eras, to head up all in the Christ — both that in the heavens and that on the earth —In this scripture, God says “too head up “ALL IN THE CHRIST” meaning 'all will be created through Christ, by the power of God'.
Other scriptures:
Col.1:15-16 …15 Who is the Image of the invisible God, Firstborn of every creature,
16 for in Him is all created, that in the heavens and that on the earth, the visible and the invisible, whether thrones, or lordships, or sovereignties, or authorities, all is created through Him and for Him,This is a good description of Him (Jesus) … “Firstborn of every creature” meaning just that,”firstborn”.
And “all is created through Him (Jesus) and for Him God)”And finally Rev.3:14 …14 “And to the messenger of the ecclesia in Laodicea write: 'Now this is saying the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, and God's Creative Original: (Jesus)
Notice “and God's Creative Original”. Any thing 'made', if it the “original”, is the first one, say a car model, or any thing made that will be reproduced, such as jewelry, clothes, tools, etc. Always the “original” is the first made, the rest are copies.Lastly, After Adam and Eve ate of the fobidden fruit, in Genesis 3:22 …”Behold! The human becomes as one of us, knowing good and evil.
Notice “becomes as one of us”, this “us” has to be Jesus, who else could could He (God) be speaking too?I do believe in Jesus pre existance, He was with God, His Creator, before he came down to earth as a human, born from Mary, His earthly mother. He (Jesus) returned to His Father (God), after His death and resurrection. His “ascention.”
Just my opinion, what do you think?
God Bless, Jerry.
The person who was the image of God was not a pre-existent Jesus but the MAN born of the Spirit of God. The very person who died on the cross was the express image of God, not some pre-existent immortal spirit, but a MAN that reached such a perfection that he was able to sit down at the right hand of God.
Jesus was called firstborn and firstborn of the dead. Jesus was most certainly the first MAN born of the Spirit of the Father, of which occurred at the river Jordan, and as well he took over the RIGHTS of the firstborn son from Adam. Jesus is the MAN born of Mary, who was promised in the OT to one day COME of the seed of David, so to me it would be obvious that Jesus could not possibly be the literal first person YHWH created. Such is the doctrine it seems so many hold deer to, but to me I find it truly absurd and that it destroys the very understanding of EVERYTHING YHWH has worked for.
Jesus was the man promised before time began and Jesus is the man who is the Eternal King. The Father made heaven and earth FOR the Perfected Man Jesus. The Father made heaven and earth for the “Sons of God” (human beings who follow the Spirit of the Father). He did not make them for some immortal spirit son we are never told about.
Just my two cents.
CO……….I will have to respectively disagree with Jesus' Preexistence, For several reasons , One is where is he mentioned by name in and preexistence activity. Second why would GOD Destroy a preexistence Bing and re berth HIM in a women and have him die again. This does not fit GOD the FATHER'S Nature. Not to mention it would Prove nothing to us to see a already perfect being live a sinless life and be reborn again. He in simply would not have been exactly like one of Us. No matter what is said , It just would not be the same and so we could never look at Jesus as truly on of US HUMANS. It would always be a way out for humans to say Jesus was not truly like us and therefore we should not be judged by His standards. It just makes no sense for GOD to Do it that way. Also the US Spoken there of in Genesis is not the word Jesus is it , so that is a supposition places there by Preexistence believers. And what do you do with scriptures that say GOD CRATED EVERYTHING (ALONE) and BY HIMSELF.
You must remember the Word ELOHIM is a UNI- Plural Word, It actually is translated as (POWERS) It was these POWERS that was the US spoken of there in genesis I believe, remember it says there are (SEVEN SPIRITS) of GOD, these Seven Spirits, I believe was what created everything that exists. Read what Jodi has also posted on this subject. Rather we believe Jesus preexisted or not i personally don't believe is pertinent to our salvation. I see Jesus as one of US as My Brother exactly like me in (every way) without exception and our Father His and Mine Has placed Him over Us in the Household of GOD , We are heirs and Joint heirs of His our dear Brother and our kinsman redeemer who gave himself for us and will always plead our cause to he Father , He is truly exactly one of US. In my opinion. This is Just the way I see it brother.
peace and love to you and yours………………………gene
gene
you are a strong man,you are now controlling Gods abilities to do anything unless it fits your views.
is this not called arrogance?? and why would any one died in the works of God, the Word of God was always a live until he died on the cross,
if angel were allowed by God to show themselves as man ,why is that God would not be able to do with Christ and revive him so what??
not you faith i guess??
Quote (terraricca @ Feb. 10 2010,14:59) gene you are a strong man,you are now controlling Gods abilities to do anything unless it fits your views.
is this not called arrogance?? and why would any one died in the works of God, the Word of God was always a live until he died on the cross,
if angel were allowed by God to show themselves as man ,why is that God would not be able to do with Christ and revive him so what??
not you faith i guess??
I agree with Gene on this one as you would have me believe an age old spirit grows in wisdom like a 12 year old boy and is conceived like any other human being.I guess you also believe in reincarnation because that is basically what you state happened when you state Jesus preexisted his conception.
Quote (Gene @ Feb. 10 2010,17:51) CO……….why would GOD Destroy a preexistence Bing and re berth HIM in a women and have him die again. peace and love to you and yours………………………gene
Hi Gene,This is what you offer in the way of no pre-existence?
Quote (chosenone @ Feb. 10 2010,14:54) Hi all.
May I give my opinion? I realise that opinions vary, and Gene, I know you and I agree on most issues, but I'm afraid I will have to disagree with this one. Here is my take on this:In Eph.1:9-10 …9 making known to us the secret of His (God) will (in accord with His delight, which He purposed in Him)
10 to have an administration of the complement of the eras, to head up all in the Christ — both that in the heavens and that on the earth —In this scripture, God says “too head up “ALL IN THE CHRIST” meaning 'all will be created through Christ, by the power of God'.
Other scriptures:
Col.1:15-16 …15 Who is the Image of the invisible God, Firstborn of every creature,
16 for in Him is all created, that in the heavens and that on the earth, the visible and the invisible, whether thrones, or lordships, or sovereignties, or authorities, all is created through Him and for Him,
This is a good description of Him (Jesus) … “Firstborn of every creature” meaning just that,”firstborn”.
And “all is created through Him (Jesus) and for Him God)”And finally Rev.3:14 …14 “And to the messenger of the ecclesia in Laodicea write: 'Now this is saying the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, and God's Creative Original: (Jesus)
Notice “and God's Creative Original”. Any thing 'made', if it the “original”, is the first one, say a car model, or any thing made that will be reproduced, such as jewelry, clothes, tools, etc. Always the “original” is the first made, the rest are copies.Lastly, After Adam and Eve ate of the fobidden fruit, in Genesis 3:22 …”Behold! The human becomes as one of us, knowing good and evil.
Notice “becomes as one of us”, this “us” has to be Jesus, who else could could He (God) be speaking too?I do believe in Jesus pre existance, He was with God, His Creator, before he came down to earth as a human, born from Mary, His earthly mother. He (Jesus) returned to His Father (God), after His death and resurrection. His “ascention.”
Just my opinion, what do you think?
God Bless, Jerry.
It is always interesting to me to see how many people agree and disagree on this subject. Whether you give good Scriptures or not it does not matter. Even when Jesus Himself is saying this in
John 17:5 “And now O Father glorify Me together with Yourself with the glory which I had with you before the world was.” We know that Jesus is in Heaven as a Spirit Being. He said that is what He was before He became a man and that is were He wanted to go back to.
So I agree with you on all the other Scriptures you gave us.
Peace and Love Irenehi
it is a error to believe that the Word has to die to be come Christ ,Jesus was spiritual in mind
so was the WORD,only in dead on the cross he died.
and i do not believe in reincarnation,it is the most stupid invention attache to determinism.some people are inventing words to justify their weird ideas, man made ideas.
since the movie “star wars” they invent more and more words soon if not done their own world.Quote (terraricca @ Feb. 10 2010,22:05) edj you have no clue of Gos plan or powers
Hi Terraricca,Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged:
and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye,
but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye;
and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out
of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.Witnessing to the world in behalf of…
117=יהוה האלהים(JEHOVAH GOD) YÄ-hä-vā hä ĔL-ō-Hêêm! (Psalm 45:17)
Ed J (AKJV Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orghi edj
well this time only i do apologies to you for my remark i made it was not called for ,i mistaken you for Gene,
i deeply regret this remark and promise to be more care full next time,
i know you will forgive in a godly way,but i have not judge you or anyone else ,if i judge you i would never talk to you again ,just like wen God disconnect you your gone ,just like the case of Saul king of Israel after he has sin.
Quote (t8 @ Feb. 10 2010,09:44) Quote (gollamudi @ Feb. 03 2010,20:09) See for your self how the Christian doctrines differ.
And then what do you do after that comment. You offer your doctrine. What's up with that?
Hi brother T8,
I offer all of our brothers to see the scriptures with broad mind and without any bias. I think the Jewish interpretation of Hebrew Bible is the right path for a Christian since Christianity had taken its roots from Judaism. No Jew can think that God is Trinity or Binity. No Jew can think that their Messiah will be somebody other than human being and one of their brothers. Pre-existence of Messiah is foriegn to Jewish scriptures.Please think over
AdamThe Hebrew Mind and Preexistence
The importance of this topic cannot be overemphasized because the need to understand scripture from the CONTEXT in which it was written is a leading cause of the lack of understanding covered by this article. It is crucial for us to understand what was written from the context of those that wrote it, and from the times in which it was written. It is an irrefutable fact that nearly ALL the authors were Jews that thought, lived, and wrote entirely within a Hebraic framework. Therefore, it is critical to interpret the Bible within the proper context — and that task is just as relevant to the issue of preexistence as it is to anything else.
The topic of “preexistence” is especially applicable to the book of John; however, it is also applicable to the entire New Testament writings. There is no better example of the tragic breakdown in communicating Jewish writings to the Western world than has occurred with the concept of “preexistence”. The typical understanding of John's writings is the result of a failure (in fact, premeditated misrepresentation) to properly describe the Hebraic concept of this crucial issue. In particular, the common Christian concept of the preexistence of the Messiah has been divorced from the purely Hebraic mind set of the New Testament authors. Two of the many catastrophic outcomes of abandoning this Judaic context are the Trinity and the belief that Yeshua is God. Many reject the Trinity yet still cling to the belief that Yeshua is “God” because of confusion over the question of preexistence At the very least, the book of John has been grossly misinterpreted because of the failure to apply the proper context to it's interpretation.
We need only reference a single Hebraic source to clarify the issue. The clarity of the reference leaves no room for misunderstanding, and removes the veil of deceit so long used by the church to conceal the truth. Following is a quote from Everyman's Talmud — The Major Teachings of the Rabbinic Sages, by Abraham Cohen. It should be realized this is the GENERAL, STANDARD HEBRAIC understanding of this issue. This quote is on page 347 and is taken from the section which discusses the Messiah in the chapter on the “Hereafter.”
The belief was general that the sending of the Messiah was part of the Creator's plan at the inception of the Universe. “Seven things were created before the world was created: Torah, repentance, the Garden of Eden (i.e. Paradise), Gehinnom, the Throne of Glory, the Temple, and the name of the Messiah” (Pes. 54a). In a later work there is the observation: “From the beginning of the creation of the world king Messiah was born, for he entered the mind (of God) before even the world was created” (Pesikta Rab. 152b)
So, here we see how the “preexistence” of the Messiah was understood by the Jewish mind. Remember that NEARLY ALL THE BIBLE'S WRITERS WERE JEWISH! The Messiah was “born” in the MIND (thought, motive, plan) of YEHOVAH God before creation but did NOT literally exist! The concept of a PHYSICAL literal preexistence is arrived at by most Christians only because they have unknowingly (or knowingly) abandoned the Jewish concept. We can't overemphasize this issue. It's importance is unequaled. IT MUST BE NOTED how the preexistence of the Messiah is defined in terms of his (the Messiah's) existence IN THE MIND OF YEHOVAH GOD the Father since before Creation. There is absolutely no literal preexistence assumed at all! Why? Because the Hebraic mind is so overwhelmed and awed by the magnificence, power, splendor, and infinite nature of YEHOVAH God that it assumes to “exist” whatever is in YEHOVAH's mind long before His “thought” actually physically manifests itself. The certainty of YEHOVAH's plan (thought) makes it as though the “thought” had already happened. YEHOVAH's intent or thought or motive or plan is so certain that it is said to “exist” despite its absence in the physical world! Obviously, since the “intent” or “plan” or “motive” of YEHOVAH God has always included the coming Messiah, the Hebraic mind assumes him (the Messiah) to have “existed” in the Mind of YEHOVAH since before creation! However, this “preexistence” was NOT considered literal or physical!
This concept is corroborated by Paul in the New Testament. In Paul's epistle to the Church of YEHOVAH God in Rome we find the following:
Romans 4:17: Just as it is written: “I have appointed you a father of many nations.” This was in the sight of the One in whom he had faith, even of God, who makes the dead alive and CALLS THE THINGS THAT ARE NOT AS THOUGH THEY WERE (The Kingdom Interlinear Translation of the Greek Scriptures).
The phrase “calls the things that are not as though they were” has as its literal rendering, shown in the center column reference of the NASB, “calls the things which do not exist as existing”. The New King James Version renders this phrase as, “calls those things which do not exist as though they did,” These phrases present PRECISELY the same idea as the Hebraic concept just outlined. And no wonder, since Paul was a “Hebrew of Hebrews.” So, in his epistle, Paul provides STRONG evidence that supports the traditional Jewish meaning of preexistence in his description of YEHOVAH as a “God who … calls those things which do not exist as though they did.” Therefore, for those that wish proof from the New Testament, you now have it! Better yet, it comes from the very epistle — and the very apostle — Traditional Christianity exalts the most! For those of you that prefer the King James Version, it is even more clearly stated as:
Romans 4:17: (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were (The King James Version, Cambridge: 1769).
Writes James D.G. Dunn in Christology in the Making —
It is clear from all this that Paul has no concept here of Christ as a pre-existent hypostasis (the Logos of God); it is simply that Christ is so much the centre and focus of the gospel that to speak of the word is to speak of Christ — the good news is Christ, particularly his crucifixion and resurrection. It is NOT that he identifies Christ with the divine Logos of Hellenistic Judaism or Stoicism and goes on from that to identify Christ (the Logos) with the word (logos) of preaching; it is rather that Christ is the heart and substance of the kerygma, not so much the Word as THE WORD PREACHED (Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Co.: 1996, p. 231).
In the book of Revelation we find another verse that provides further evidence regarding the fact that preexistence is NOT literal, notice!
Revelation 13:8: Everyone living on earth will worship it except those whose names are written in the Book of Life belonging to the Lamb [the Messiah] SLAUGHTERED BEFORE THE WORLD WAS FOUNDED (Jewish New Testament).
If we apply the logic of those promoting a literal preexistence of the Messiah to this verse, we would have to conclude that the Messiah was slain upon the tree long before Creation! Obviously, the Lamb (Yeshua the Messiah) was not slain until long after “the foundation of the world”. Trinitarians and those in the Churches of God promoting the “preexistence” of the Messiah hate this verse because of the damage it does to their erroneous “preexistence” doctrine. So, here we see just one more verse from the New Testament that buttresses the argument that preexistence in the Jewish, SCRIPTURAL context is NOT a literal preexistence Instead it is to be understood as the state of existence in the mind, thought, plan, or motive of YEHOVAH God. YEHOVAH's divine plan included the Lamb (the Messiah) before the foundation of the world; however, the Messiah did NOT literally exist until he was manifested at his appointed time!
Also note that the context from which Revelation 13:8 was taken describes the end of the pagan
Roman Empire and the rise of the Papal Roman Empire in its place, and how it will deceive virtually the entire world. The Papacy ruled over the same territory as the pagan empire, but it also retained the same power of dictatorship. The Catholic Church maintained the same totalitarian power of the Roman Emperors, but it was now directed through a Pope! It is this very church that is promoting the anti-messiah (replacement Messiah), “other gods”, and rebellion against YEHOVAH's eternal instructions (Torah or Law)! Sadly, most “that dwell upon the earth” DO in fact worship Catholic-based, traditional Christianity!Finally, Jewish tradition believes that ALL souls are “pre-existent” and await the time when they will be placed within mortal beings. With this in mind, ALL of us could be said to be “pre-existent” which would, of course, include the MAN, Yeshua. However, even within this belief, the LITERAL, PHYSICAL preexistence is not present and Yeshua's “preexistence” would not at all be unique. The notion is that every soul that will ever live was created in the beginning and, upon their appointed time, enters into the physical body. It is more of a “spiritual” form of preexistence
Comments James Dunn —
In each case (perhaps including Rom. 1.3f.) what was determined long before in the will of God came to historical actuality in Christ — not, of course, in the sense that Jesus just happened to be the one who fitted the divine specifications, but in the sense that Christ was the one who from the beginning had been pre-ordained for this role. At the same time this MAY NOT be understood as an affirmation of Christ as himself preexistent It is the divine purpose for Christ which 'existed' from the beginning, NOT the one in whom it should be fulfilled; just as Paul can speak of the divine purpose similarly predetermined for those who believe in Christ (Rom. 8.28-30). NO THOUGHT of the personal preexistence of either Christ or believers is involved (Christology in the Making, p. 235).
Why do most Churches of God choose to conceal the TRUE Hebraic concept of preexistence as they supposedly attempt to educate others regarding Jewish roots? Could it be for the same reason as Traditional Christian theologians? Could it be that their death-grip on the Biune or Triune God will not allow them to accept Truth? Could it be that they will promote ONLY (often with distortions, such as their pagan Greek Binity or Trinity) those Jewish foundations that support their biased doctrinal beliefs?
We will be more specific in the application of this FUNDAMENTAL BIBLICAL CONCEPT in those verses where it needs to be remembered; however, its use should be obvious in the book of John…..
Quote (gollamudi @ Feb. 10 2010,10:04) The Hebrew Mind and Preexistence
GMThis is laughable! Why would you think that anti-preexistent modern day Jews can explain what the Apostle John or Jesus own words mean? Did you forget that Jesus and the Apostles including Paul were also Jewish? Paul was a Hebrew of the Hebrews. I would rather believe their words than the words of a modern day Jew!
The article is full of a bunch of inferrences and assumptions and doesn't even address any of the pre-existent verses exept for John 1:1 where they are saying that a “thought or plan” is God that was with God!
Why don't you find someone who understands Greek Grammer and see if they can refute my post of how the Greek grammer does not permit the translation or interpretation of certain preexistent verses to be Unititarian!
Blessings WJ
Adam……….Very Good Post brother, I see it that way also. Peter said it best, Jesus was foreordained (BUT) was manifested in our time. The concept of the preexistence of Jesus has it's roots in the DOCTRINE of THE TRINITY. It is a false teaching of the apostate churches. Jesus was a man who was in the PLAN and WILL of the ONLY TRUE GOD , from the foundation of the world, It was GOD Purpose to take a Human being from humanity and Perfect HIM and raise Him from the dead . Jesus is one of us Humans and always was and will be, he is our (EXACT) Identity and GOD'S work in Him is the (EXACT) work He does in US. Jesus is our brother the (Frist) brom into the family of GOD from among Men. Good Post brother you have it right. IMO
peace and Love to you and yours Adam………………………gene
Quote (gollamudi @ Feb. 11 2010,01:53) Quote (t8 @ Feb. 10 2010,09:44) Quote (gollamudi @ Feb. 03 2010,20:09) See for your self how the Christian doctrines differ.
And then what do you do after that comment. You offer your doctrine. What's up with that?
Hi brother T8,
I offer all of our brothers to see the scriptures with broad mind and without any bias. I think the Jewish interpretation of Hebrew Bible is the right path for a Christian since Christianity had taken its roots from Judaism. No Jew can think that God is Trinity or Binity. No Jew can think that their Messiah will be somebody other than human being and one of their brothers. Pre-existence of Messiah is foriegn to Jewish scriptures.Please think over
Adam
G,Moses was a Jew and he wrote that God was a plural “us” (Genesis 1:26).
It is a slippery slope to suggest that we find truth in the views of unbelievers.
thinker
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 11 2010,02:33) Quote (gollamudi @ Feb. 10 2010,10:04) The Hebrew Mind and Preexistence
GMThis is laughable! Why would you think that anti-preexistent modern day Jews can explain what the Apostle John or Jesus own words mean? Did you forget that Jesus and the Apostles including Paul were also Jewish? Paul was a Hebrew of the Hebrews. I would rather believe their words than the words of a modern day Jew!
The article is full of a bunch of inferrences and assumptions and doesn't even address any of the pre-existent verses exept for John 1:1 where they are saying that a “thought or plan” is God that was with God!
Why don't you find someone who understands Greek Grammer and see if they can refute my post of how the Greek grammer does not permit the translation or interpretation of certain preexistent verses to be Unititarian!
Blessings WJ
Amen WJ! Preach it my brother!thinker
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