Preexistence

[kerwin]

To all,

Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 04 2009,16:53)

T8 wrote: Quote So as you can see, what I said was a mere repetition of these scriptures and even briefer than what these scriptures describe. It is obviously you do not understand the scriptures you choose to quote or you would not make such an absurd claim.  Jesus is fully human conceived by a miracle of God but never the less conceived.  You may claim otherwise but it is not true.

To add to what I wrote to T8, either what is written in scripture is right and Jesus was conceived, i.e. formed or developed, in Mary or scripture is wrong and he was formed or developed beforehand.  That is the question.  It clearly does not state just his body was formed in Mary and to put that in is adding to what God states.

Matthew 1:20(KJV) reads:

Quote

But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.

and

Luke 1:31(KJV) reads:

Quote

And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.

and

Luke 2:21(KJV) reads:

Quote

And when eight days were accomplished for the circumcising of the child, his name was called JESUS, which was so named of the angel before he was conceived in the womb.

What does scripture state about human beings in general.

Jerimiah 1:5(KJV) reads:

Quote

Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

and

Job 31:15(KJV) reads:

Quote

Did not he that made me in the womb make him? and did not one fashion us in the womb?

So why do people choose to make Jesus other than a man?  Is it because the are afraid of the challenge, to be righteous as God is righteous, he set for them and then proved it could be gained?  In other words is it because they are afraid to come out of the dark?  Trust Jesus! Trust God!

[banana]

To all! Let me give you some other Scriptures and ask a question:” In
John 3:16 :For God so loved the word that He gave His only begotten Son…..
verse 17
God send not His Son into the world.
If you send someone He was there. So where did God send His Son from? He send Him into the world so He was not in the world when He send Him.
With all the other Scriptures I just can't believe that you still want to deny these.
In the Moffatt Bible it is written about in Proverbs 8:33-30
Learn we did. I am not going to waste my time again about this.
Irene:)

[kerwin]

Quote (banana @ Dec. 05 2009,13:06)

To all!  Let me give you some other Scriptures and ask a question:” In John 3:16 :For God so loved the word that He gave His only begotten Son….. verse 17 God send not His Son into the world. If you send someone He was there.  So where did God send His Son from?  He send Him into the world so He was not in the world when He send Him. With all the other Scriptures I just can't believe that you still want to deny these. In the Moffatt Bible it is written about in Proverbs 8:33-30 Learn we did.  I am not going to waste my time again about this. Irene:)

Do you realize that God also sent the prophets into the world?

[martian]

Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 05 2009,18:13)

Quote (banana @ Dec. 05 2009,13:06) To all!  Let me give you some other Scriptures and ask a question:” In John 3:16 :For God so loved the word that He gave His only begotten Son….. verse 17 God send not His Son into the world. If you send someone He was there.  So where did God send His Son from?  He send Him into the world so He was not in the world when He send Him. With all the other Scriptures I just can't believe that you still want to deny these. In the Moffatt Bible it is written about in Proverbs 8:33-30 Learn we did.  I am not going to waste my time again about this. Irene:) Do you realize that God also sent the prophets into the world?

EXACTLY RIGHT —- did God send the prophets from heaven too?
the problem with false doctrine is that those who harbor it are willing to read their doctrine into scripture. they do not let scripture interpret scripture.
Any first year Bible college student knows that when you are seeking an understanding of a phrase like “sent into the world” you first look to see if that phrase is used elsewhere in the bible to get the meaning. Otherwise you risk having cut and paste theology in which you pull a scripture that “seems” to prove the theory you already have decided upon and then go no farther to see if it means what they think it means.

[KangarooJack]

Quote (martian @ Dec. 06 2009,03:59)

Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 05 2009,18:13) Quote (banana @ Dec. 05 2009,13:06) To all!  Let me give you some other Scriptures and ask a question:” In John 3:16 :For God so loved the word that He gave His only begotten Son….. verse 17 God send not His Son into the world. If you send someone He was there.  So where did God send His Son from?  He send Him into the world so He was not in the world when He send Him. With all the other Scriptures I just can't believe that you still want to deny these. In the Moffatt Bible it is written about in Proverbs 8:33-30 Learn we did.  I am not going to waste my time again about this. Irene:) Do you realize that God also sent the prophets into the world? EXACTLY RIGHT —- did God send the prophets from heaven too? the problem with false doctrine is that those who harbor it are willing to read their doctrine into scripture. they do not let scripture interpret scripture. Any first year Bible college student knows that when you are seeking an understanding of a phrase like “sent into the world” you first look to see if that phrase is used elsewhere in the bible to get the meaning.  Otherwise you risk having cut and paste theology in which you pull a scripture that “seems” to prove the theory you already have decided upon and then go no farther to see if it means what they think it means.

But the prophets were not sent into the world FROM HEAVEN.

“I came DOWN FROM HEAVEN not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me” (John 6). Can't you guys do better? Children understand this. Why don't you?

thinker

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (thethinker @ Dec. 05 2009,12:22)

Quote (martian @ Dec. 06 2009,03:59) Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 05 2009,18:13) Quote (banana @ Dec. 05 2009,13:06) To all!  Let me give you some other Scriptures and ask a question:” In John 3:16 :For God so loved the word that He gave His only begotten Son….. verse 17 God send not His Son into the world. If you send someone He was there.  So where did God send His Son from?  He send Him into the world so He was not in the world when He send Him. With all the other Scriptures I just can't believe that you still want to deny these. In the Moffatt Bible it is written about in Proverbs 8:33-30 Learn we did.  I am not going to waste my time again about this. Irene:) Do you realize that God also sent the prophets into the world? EXACTLY RIGHT —- did God send the prophets from heaven too? the problem with false doctrine is that those who harbor it are willing to read their doctrine into scripture. they do not let scripture interpret scripture. Any first year Bible college student knows that when you are seeking an understanding of a phrase like “sent into the world” you first look to see if that phrase is used elsewhere in the bible to get the meaning.  Otherwise you risk having cut and paste theology in which you pull a scripture that “seems” to prove the theory you already have decided upon and then go no farther to see if it means what they think it means. But the prophets were not sent into the world FROM HEAVEN. “I came DOWN FROM HEAVEN not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me” (John 6). Can't you guys do better? Children understand this. Why don't you? thinker

Jack

Amen! Plain language doesn't mean anything to them. They have to read all kinds of inference into the scriptures to fit their doctrines!

WJ

[kerwin]

thethinker wrote:

Quote

But the prophets were not sent into the world FROM HEAVEN.

I do not believe you stated that. I assure you the one who sent the true prophets is in heaven. In other words since they were sent from God they were sent from heaven.

[banana]

Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 05 2009,18:13)

Quote (banana @ Dec. 05 2009,13:06) To all!  Let me give you some other Scriptures and ask a question:” In John 3:16 :For God so loved the word that He gave His only begotten Son….. verse 17 God send not His Son into the world. If you send someone He was there.  So where did God send His Son from?  He send Him into the world so He was not in the world when He send Him. With all the other Scriptures I just can't believe that you still want to deny these. In the Moffatt Bible it is written about in Proverbs 8:33-30 Learn we did.  I am not going to waste my time again about this. Irene:) Do you realize that God also sent the prophets into the world?

And how do you explain all the other Scriptures like
Col. 1:15-17
Rev. 3:14
John 176:5
And you belief that Proverbs 8:22-30 is Wisdom being born. So God did not have Wisdom til then. That makes no sense.
God has always existed and always had wisdom.
And you really belief that Jesus was not special. He knew where He came from. How could He have said what He did in John 17:5 You and others go to one degree while those that believe in the trinity goes another way, that all three Father, Son and Holy Spirit always existed. And BTW it is not my doctrine but of God like the Holy Spirit is God's Holy Spirit. And Martian is here for entertainment, are you too? Or do you want to learn from others that God has revealed some truths,that you at this time do not understand. Give yourself time, I
had to. I did not want to belief, but thanks to our Heavenly Father He did not leave me in that unbelief.
If Jesus merely was a man, He would have sinned just like all Human beings have. God had to send His only begotten Son into the world to save the world. He wants no one to perish, There is even a Song that says that
“God so loved the world, God so loved the World that He gave His only begotten Son that soever believed believeth in Him shall not perish, shall not perish but have everlasting life. Does He say that about the prophets too. No.
Also John 1:1 some will say that the Word that was with God in the Beginning, His beginning, was the intellect of God. And that intellect became flesh. Think again. Some of you just don't want to use a little common sense. Always trying to discredit others. Now I am writing this for kerwin and not martian I don't want to entertain him. t8 always quotes about Abraham and that too is a good example, but no one wants to belief, just be entertained like martian says.
How could Jesus say that He came to do the will of His Father and how come He could preach at age 12 in the Temple. Have you ever seen a child do that? And He is not special? O, I do, and am glad that God did what He did.
And did you read what John 6 says?
John 6:38 “For I have come down from Heaven, not to do my own will, but the will who send Me.” and again in verse
41″I have come down from Heaven.”
All these Scriptures and you still deny, deny all you want one day you will see. Good Luck and good-bye I will not entertain you again, if you do that too.
Peace and Love to you and yours, Irene

[martian]

The following two verses show that Even as Jesus was sent into the world so were the disciples.
John 17:18
”As You sent Me into the world, I also have sent them into the world.

John 20
21So Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you; as the Father has sent Me, I also send you.”

From the Ancient Hebrew research Center
http://www.ancient-hebrew.org/emagazine/035.html#word

Word of the Month – שמים Heaven
By: Jeff A. Benner

The Hebrew word for “heaven” is שמים shamayim. There is some debate over the origins and meanings of this word but, there are a few common theories.

1. Derived from the unused root שמה shamah possibly meaning lofty. The plural form of this word would be שמים shamayim. 
2. Derived from the root שמם shamam meaning Desolate, in the sense of a dry wind blowing over the land drying it out. The plural form of this word would also be shamayim.
3. The word shamayim may be the Hebrew word מים mayim, meaning water, and the prefix ש sh meaning like. Combined, the word שמים shamayim would mean “like water.”

Aside from the debate over the origins of the word it is clear that the word is commonly used in the Biblical text for “sky.” It is frequently used in conjuction with the word ארץ erets, meaning land (see Gen 1:1, 2:1 and 14:19), representing the whole of creation and the domain of God. 

In the New Testament this word was used as a Euphamism (one word used in place of another) for God. This can be seen in some of the parables where the book of Luke (written for Gentiles) uses the phrase “Kingdom of God” whereas Matthew (written to Jews) uses “Kingdom of Heaven.” In this context, heaven is meant to represent God, not a place.

There are many places where Christ and others are sent from God. There is no difference.

[GeneBalthrop]

Martian……….I also agree with that, that word does need more explanation. I know someone who researched it and found it is not as we think of it, it can even be in the mind according to his research, interesting!

peace and love to you and yours………………gene

[Proclaimer]

Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 04 2009,21:53)

It is obviously you do not understand the scriptures you choose to quote or you would not make such an absurd claim.  Jesus is fully human conceived by a miracle of God but never the less conceived.  You may claim otherwise but it is not true.

The point is that I repeated those scriptures in a simplified form and I think you and someone else jumped all over me and the words.

Point being that it showed bias from you guys. If you believed scripture, you would have agreed with the words rather than say they were wrong.

[banana]

Quote (t8 @ Dec. 06 2009,15:12)

Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 04 2009,21:53) It is obviously you do not understand the scriptures you choose to quote or you would not make such an absurd claim.  Jesus is fully human conceived by a miracle of God but never the less conceived.  You may claim otherwise but it is not true. The point is that I repeated those scriptures in a simplified form and I think you and someone else jumped all over me and the words. Point being that it showed bias from you guys. If you believed scripture, you would have agreed with the words rather than say they were wrong.

t8  You are right that is exactly what is happening here.  It does not matter to them what Scriptures are being posted they have made up their minds and that's it.
Peace and Love Irene

[Proclaimer]

I find all explanations against Philippians 2:5-8 to be far fetched.

If I was to except that level of farfetchedness, then I could believe anyone's interpretation against all scripture.

You could cleverly disprove God using scripture for example. You can make scripture teach reincarnation as some do. You could make it justify KKK theology as some do. You can make it say anything you desire. But I am not interested in making scripture say what I desire because I have no desire for it to say a certain thing to start with.

I just believe it the way it is written and I see patterns and confirmation throughout scripture that I cannot ignore. So I accept it for what it is, and am not interested in changing it for some other doctrine.

I don't see what the point is of all these people bending scripture to say what they want. What do they hope to achieve? It just doesn't bode well for people who do this, that much I am certain.

[Proclaimer]

Quote (banana @ Dec. 06 2009,15:17)

t8  You are right that is exactly what is happening here.  It does not matter to them what Scriptures are being posted they have made up their minds and that's it. Peace and Love Irene

Yes, that is how it appears.

[GeneBalthrop]

T8……….then you are under obligation to produce a Specific Scripture that says (JESUS PREEXISTED HIS BERTH AS A BEING) AND YOU ARE UNDER OBLIGATION TO SHOW HIS ACTIVITY PRIOR TO HIS BERTH, AND TO GIVE CAUSE THAT GOD WOULD EVEN DO THAT. None of the above you or any preexistences have specifically proven. You can't even prove what kind of being he was even if he did exist.  I am afraid it is you brother who's not really proving what scripture really means. T8, there is no rime or reason for Jesus to preexist his berth other then in the plan of GOD. You can't even answer why would GOD kill him and rebirth him in Mary in the first place. It would prove nothing to us if a perfect being came and walked perfectly that would prove nothing. Jesus was the (FIRST) MAN from MAN KIND to fulfill GOD'S Plan, from the HUMAN RACE. You are wrong on this one brother. If you don't see Jesus as one of us you simply don't see Jesus.  IMO

peace and love to you and yours…………………gene

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Gene @ Dec. 06 2009,00:11)

T8……….then you are under obligation to produce a Spicily Scripture that says (JESUS PREEXISTED HIS BERTH AS A BEING) AND YOU ARE UNDER OBLIGATION TO SHOW HIS ACTIVITY PRIOR TO HIS BERTH, AND TO GIVE CAUSE THAT GOD WOULD EVEN DO THAT. None of the above you or any preexistences have specifically proven. You can't even prove what kind of being he was even if he did exist.  I afraid it is you brother who's not really proving what scripture really means. T8, there is no rime or reason for Jesus to preexist his berth other then in the plan of GOD. Jesus was the (FIRST) MAN from MAN KIND to fulfill GOD'S Plan from the HUMAN RACE. You are wrong on this one brother.  IMO peace and love to you and yours…………………gene

GB

What good would it do? We have shown you where Jesus said that he came down from heaven and could ascend up to where he was before in plain words. John Chapter 6.

But Jesus own words are not good enough for you. You guys have to read into his words things like he was talking about Gods thoughts or plan came down.

Jesus said he shared glory with the Father before the world was but his plain speach means nothing to you.

If you do not believe his plain speach then how will you believe if he shows you Mysteries?

WJ

[banana]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 06 2009,16:21)

Quote (Gene @ Dec. 06 2009,00:11) T8……….then you are under obligation to produce a Spicily Scripture that says (JESUS PREEXISTED HIS BERTH AS A BEING) AND YOU ARE UNDER OBLIGATION TO SHOW HIS ACTIVITY PRIOR TO HIS BERTH, AND TO GIVE CAUSE THAT GOD WOULD EVEN DO THAT. None of the above you or any preexistences have specifically proven. You can't even prove what kind of being he was even if he did exist.  I afraid it is you brother who's not really proving what scripture really means. T8, there is no rime or reason for Jesus to preexist his berth other then in the plan of GOD. Jesus was the (FIRST) MAN from MAN KIND to fulfill GOD'S Plan from the HUMAN RACE. You are wrong on this one brother.  IMO peace and love to you and yours…………………gene GB What good would it do? We have shown you where Jesus said that he came down from heaven and could ascend up to where he was before in plain words. John Chapter 6. But Jesus own words are not good enough for you. You guys have to read into his words things like he was talking about Gods thoughts or plan came down. Jesus said he shared glory with the Father before the world was but his plain speach means nothing to you. If you do not believe his plain speach then how will you believe if he shows you Mysteries? WJ

W.J. I don't to often agree with you, but it sure is nice when I do. With this I agree with you. Why they don't see it is to me unbelieveable. But then Gene never even understand John 1:1 either.
Take care and thank you, Irene

[kerwin]

Irene wrote:

Quote

And how do you explain all the other Scriptures like

There are a lot of scripture and explaining my current understanding of each would be lengthy and cumbersome.    Since I am but a student, those interpretation would be subject to change as they were tested and in some cases found wanting.  I do know there are alternative ways to interpret them and so I attempt to cut to the chase by pointing our scripture that I find less vague.  One is that scripture clearly states Jesus is a human being a descendant of David.   In other words he came after King David.  Another is that Jesus was conceived or formed in Mary’s womb.  Scripture does not state that just his body was formed in her womb but it clearly states Jesus, himself was formed in Mary’s womb,

I asked this question of someone else.  If a demon soul takes on a human body is the individual that results still a demon or do they become a human being?

[kerwin]

Quote (t8 @ Dec. 06 2009,10:12)

Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 04 2009,21:53) It is obviously you do not understand the scriptures you choose to quote or you would not make such an absurd claim.  Jesus is fully human conceived by a miracle of God but never the less conceived.  You may claim otherwise but it is not true. The point is that I repeated those scriptures in a simplified form and I think you and someone else jumped all over me and the words. Point being that it showed bias from you guys. If you believed scripture, you would have agreed with the words rather than say they were wrong.

I freely admit that I am biased in believing Jesus is a human being just like every other human being and not a preexistence spiritual being though he is currently enclosed in spiritual flesh.

[martian]

Frankly I am a little sick of those that accuse me of ignoring clear scripture and accuse me of being unsaved because I do not follow their particular interpretation of scripture.

I posted these two very clear scriptures in response to those that said Christ was sent into the world in a way or from some place other then us. The scriptures were ignored. Just as I was accused of doing. I also posted expert (certainly more expert then any goombahs on here) information showing that the terms from heaven and from God were used interchangeably in many cases. That was ignored.

John 17:18
”As You sent Me into the world, I also have sent them into the world.

John 17:18 (Amplified Bible)
18Just as You sent Me into the world, I also have sent them into the world.

John 17:18 (Young's Literal Translation)
18as Thou didst send me to the world, I also did send them to the world;

Were the apostles sent from some preexistence or were they literally sent from heaven?

John 20
21So Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you; as the Father has sent Me, I also send you.”

John 20:21 (Amplified Bible)
21Then Jesus said to them again, Peace to you! [Just] as the Father has sent Me forth, so I am sending you.

John 20:21 (Young's Literal Translation)
21Jesus, therefore, said to them again, `Peace to you; according as the Father hath sent me, I also send you;'

Again were the apostles sent from heaven or from some preexistence? scripture says they were sent JUST AS CHRIST WAS SENT.

Scriptures that say He is the bread of life come down out of heaven are taken literally to a point. They are not willing to say that Christ is a loaf of bunny bread or that He is literally the manna that fell from heaven. The entire context is figurative but preexisters will pull something out to make literal based only on a desire to prove their doctrine. Literal or figurative. You can’t have it both ways.

This believe that Christ preexisted has it’s roots in dualism, a Greek philosophy that invaded Christianity shortly after the Gospel period.
Dualism is the false belief that there exists two realms in the universe. The spiritual or Holy realm and the nastural/carnal realm. From this philosophy came the false teaching of original sin and from that came infant baptism to cover the so-called sins imputed on babies. How can any reasonable person believe that an innocent infant could sin when they are not of age to even make choices between right and wrong. Does that mean that all children that die before they are of choice age go to hell? How about aborted babies? Do they all go to Hell?
Dualists could never accept Christ as coming from the natural realm because that would make him of the lower Earthly realm. That would make him a partaker of original sin.
What utter hogwash. This is the type of nonsense that led to paying pennants for our sins as if Christ was not enough. The degrading of humanity led to the Catholic dark Ages, the inquisition and the tearing down of the truth of God’s love for His children. Without a single scriptural basis the inquisitors accused people of blasphemy or of not being Christian if they did not follow the teachings they taught. We have some modern day inquisitors on here don’t we?
Over and over I hear the terms “Jesus cannot be a mere man” denoting a follower of dualism.

Jesus said the kingdom of God is here. God’s spirit permeates the natural realm and is all around us. We do not have to go somewhere else to find it.
Me do not want Jesus to be a normal human because it sets the standard for perfected humanity very high. Perhaps they have not the faith to believe they can really be like Christ. Making him a God gives them an excuse to not be like him. Perhaps it is a matter of not being willing to pay the price of vulnerability to God that it takes to follow Christ’ walk.

I have numerous times posted scriptures stating that we are to use Christ as our example of how to walk with God toward perfected humanity only to have them ignored.
Instead I am called an Arian. Then this same person uses attributes of Christ after his resurrection to prove that we cannot duplicate his actions. This person confuses the mantle of Christ as the messiah with his duty to walk as a perfect human/child of God. All of us have that calling to walk perfect before God, but only one has the further job of being the Messiah. I have the calling of walking as Christ walked even if I am never a prophet, teacher or evangelist. I can never be the Messiah, but I can walk as the perfected human son of God, Jesus.

It seems that even when clear scripture is posted the Trinitarians and preexisters ignore them.

[Author]

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