Preexistence

[NickHassan]

Hi KW,
You say
“Now your point makes it appear as if you are saying that Satan is more powerful than Jesus our Lord and that is not so for when God put everything in heaven and earth under Jesus’ feet that also meant Satan. “

The reign of Jesus over the earth only began at his anointing as King.
He set up a kingdom of light which continues to flourish despite the darkness.
The light will fully overcome the darkness and earth will be restired at his return to reign.

[NickHassan]

Hi KW,
This describes the greater angels.
2 Peter 2:11
Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord.

Jesus was only a little less for a time.

[Lightenup]

Hi Nick,
Good posts!
LU

[kerwin]

Nick Hassan wrote:

Quote

Does scripture contain the apostrophes?

It was merely advice to aid in the avoidance of confusion.  Take it or not as you think best.  

Nick Hassan wrote:

Quote

Jesus was only a little less for a time.

I basically said the same thing but mean something different than I believe you do.   Despite that you appear to believe angels were oblivious to Jesus’ speculative preexistent role as King of everything on earth and in heaven a role you also say he supposedly received because of his death before his death actually occurred, you seem to believe he stepped down to take the role up once more after his death.  

Now it also appears you are a bit confused since you also state:

Nick Hassan wrote:

Quote

The reign of Jesus over the earth only began at his anointing as King.

I thought you said his reign began when the world was created and he stepped down for a time.  Now you appear to be saying he started his reign when he ascended to heaven.  I agree with the later but not the former as it is not in scripture.  You do not get anointed to be King after you are already King.  As examples look at both Saul and David whom were both anointed before they took the throne and the anointing declared them heirs to the throne.

Nick Hassan wrote:

Quote

The light will fully overcome the darkness and earth will be restored at his return to reign.

You have me confused now.  Are you speaking of the second coming or of his death, resurrection, and ascension?

By your words you seem to fail to understand that in making Jesus King of everything in heaven and on earth God made him the mediator between God and us and we know he was not the mediator before his death, resurrection and ascension.

Hebrew 8:6(NIV) reads:

Quote

But the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to the old one, and it is founded on better promises.

Nick Hassan wrote:

Quote

Jesus was only a little less for a time.

This brings up the last point I will address with this post and that is where in scripture does it state “for a time”.  I wonder if perhaps you are jumping to conclusions without realizing it.

[NickHassan]

Hi KW,
You say
“I basically said the same thing but mean something different than I believe you do. Despite that you appear to believe angels were oblivious to Jesus’ speculative preexistent role as King of everything on earth and in heaven a role you also say he supposedly received because of his death before his death actually occurred, you seem to believe he stepped down to take the role up once more after his death. “

He had glory with God as he told us in Jn17
As King?
No.

That was a later appointment

Dan7
13I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.

14And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

[NickHassan]

Hi KW,
You say
“This brings up the last point I will address with this post and that is where in scripture does it state “for a time”. I wonder if perhaps you are jumping to conclusions without realizing it. “

Hebrews 2:7
” YOU HAVE MADE HIM FOR A LITTLE WHILE LOWER THAN THE ANGELS;YOU HAVE CROWNED HIM WITH GLORY AND HONOR, AND HAVE APPOINTED HIM OVER THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS;
Hebrews 2:9
But we do see Him who was made for a little while lower than the angels, namely, Jesus, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, so that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone.

[GeneBalthrop]

Nick……… Hebrews 2:7….> The Him there is MAN not Jesus, In other words Man KIND has not Yet be elevated to that GLORY, BUT it goes on to say, But what do we see?, We do see Jesus who (like US) was made lower for a while then the angles , for the suffering of Death (just like us) Now crowned with glory and honor ( as we shall be also). This passage has nothing to do with a prior Existence of Jesus before His berth on earth. Your forcing the text to meet you preconceive ideologies .

love and peace to you………………………………..gene

[NickHassan]

G,
Yes.
Heb 2.7 is about man and 2.9 about Jesus.
Ps 8
1O LORD, our Lord, how excellent is thy name in all the earth! who hast set thy glory above the heavens.

2Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings hast thou ordained strength because of thine enemies, that thou mightest still the enemy and the avenger.

3When I consider thy heavens, the work of thy fingers, the moon and the stars, which thou hast ordained;

4What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him?

5For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour.

6Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet:

7All sheep and oxen, yea, and the beasts of the field;

8The fowl of the air, and the fish of the sea, and whatsoever passeth through the paths of the seas.

9O LORD our Lord, how excellent is thy name in all the earth!

Heb2
But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man that thou visitest him?

7Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:

8Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.

9But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

10For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

11For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,

[kerwin]

Nick Hassan,

I do not see why you believe Hebrews 2:7 and 2:9 are evidence that Jesus was reduced in authority for a little while.  Please explain. Thank you.

Nick Hassan wrote:

Quote

He had glory with God as he told us in Jn17 As King? No. That was a later appointment

It sounds like we agree then that Jesus was first made King of everything in heaven and on earth only after his death, resurrection, and ascension..

John 17:5(NIV) reads:

Quote

And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

What glory do you believe this scripture is speaking of?  It is my understanding, which I believe is from God ,that Jesus is speaking of God crowning him King of everything in heaven and on earth.  If that is so and Jesus only first became King after his death, resurrection , and ascension then it cannot be saying he was King before the world began but it can be saying that the promise of his Kingship existed before the world began.  Do you believe the promise of Jesus’ Kingship existed before the world began and was hidden in God even from the angels?

Colossians 1:16(NIV) reads:

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For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.

This is obviously speaking of Jesus’ Kingship since it is by his Kingship over everything in heaven and on earth that by him and for him we  are made a new creation as are the thrones, powers, rulers, and authorities.  The old will be thrown out of his kingdom and cast into the lake of fire.  Since Jesus was not King before his death, resurrection, and ascension it cannot be speaking of that time.

[GeneBalthrop]

Nick………..Jesus did not preexist his berth brother, not one scripture produced clearly defines his preexistences nor any has been produced that clearly shows his activity before, not to mention it is illogical for GOD to even Do it that way because it would prove nothing to man kind of GOD Salvation on an individual bases. It would not show us our own transformation process if GOD took a already perfect being and He walked perfectly, that would prove nothing to us. Jesus was a man born with a predestination like Jeremiah and Cyrus, John the Baptist and others. His Glory was a foreordained Glory, and only past in the sense it was preplanned. We have to come out of all these confusions and vague interpretations planted by the False Trinity and preexistences teachings of the Apostate Church, along with the false teachings about demons and all unsound teachings like that.

There is more confusion today in religion then there ever was since its beginning. We are told to come out of that unsoundness and to PROVE ALL THINGS. If we can't absolutely prove something we should not accept it and to force the text to accommodate our views is wrong. NO Where is there any activity of Jesus mentioned in scripture, prior to his berth, so to try to force the text to say it is an error. And remember the ones who were translating the text were (TRINITARIANS) and PREEXISTENCES, who were heavily influenced by Greek theologies. Some times we need to Step back and get a overview of GOD'S purpose and plan For mankind and understand all that He does is serving that plan. And we know His plan is to Prefect His Creation and deliver it from the bondage of corruption. He took one of US and perfected HIM as an example to us of his saving Power and deliverance, of his creation. Jesus is the finished product of US, as GOD did for Him He will do for US also. Jesus should not be in any way moved away from our own personal identity, by any preexistence existence. He should be look at as a prophesied Man who was in the Plan and Will of GOD the FATHER from the foundations of the earth, and who gets the true (GLORY) is it not the FATHER. IMO

love and peace to you and yours…………………………………….gene

[kerwin]

Quote (Gene @ April 12 2009,22:39)

Nick………..Jesus did not preexist his berth brother, not one scripture produced clearly defines his preexistences nor any has been produced that clearly shows his activity before, not to mention it is illogical for GOD to even Do it that way because it would prove nothing to man kind of GOD Salvation on an individual bases. It would not show us our own transformation process if GOD took a already perfect being and He walked perfectly, that would prove nothing to us. Jesus was a man born with a predestination like Jeremiah and Cyrus, John the Baptist and others. His Glory was a foreordained Glory, and only past in the sense it was preplanned. We have to come out of all these confusions and vague interpretations planted by the False Trinity and preexistences teachings of the Apostate Church, along with the false teachings about demons and all unsound teachings like that. There is more confusion today in religion then there ever was since its beginning. We are told to come out of that unsoundness and to PROVE ALL THINGS. If we can't absolutely prove something we should not accept it and to force the text to accommodate our views is wrong. NO Where is there any activity of Jesus mentioned in scripture, prior to his berth,  so to try to force the text to say it is an error. And remember the ones who were translating the text were (TRINITARIANS) and PREEXISTENCES, who were heavily  influenced by Greek theologies. Some times we need to Step back and get a overview of GOD'S purpose and plan For mankind and understand all that He does is serving that plan. And we know His plan is to Prefect His Creation and deliver it from the bondage of corruption. He took one of US and perfected HIM as an example to us of his saving Power and deliverance, of his creation. Jesus is the finished product of US, as GOD did for Him He will do for US also. Jesus should not be in any way moved away from our own personal identity, by any preexistence existence. He should be look at as a prophesied Man who was in the Plan and Will of GOD the FATHER from the foundations of the earth, and who gets the true (GLORY) is it not the FATHER. IMO love and peace to you and yours…………………………………….gene

Sounds good!

[NickHassan]

Hi KW,
Jesus is the name given to a man.
His unique origins are another story.

[GeneBalthrop]

Nick………..This thread is about His origins, Preexistence, right?.

love and peace to you and yours………………………….gene

[gollamudi]

Quote (t8 @ April 06 2009,23:12)

Quote (gollamudi @ April 06 2009,19:52) Hi brother T8, I appreciate your both posts above on the image of God. Yes if Adam and Jesus were the images of God certainly in Christ Jesus we will be made in the true image of God. But I want to ask you; can we make Jesus another God/God-being as often claimed by many Trinitarians and pre-existence believers here? If so he could not be our brother at all and we deviate from biblical Monotheism. Please think on these lines. Peace to you Adam Golly, I believe your predefined doctrine is demonstrating some bias here. If Jesus was before all things and God created all things through him, that doesn't make him God. Think about it. God had to of created somebody first. Why is that somebody God as well? If that makes that somebody God, then you must believe in 2 Gods because somebody had to be the first. I can accept what you said about Trinitarians because this is what they teach. But pre-existence doesn't demand that Jesus is God. On the contrary, if he came from God, it is an acknowledgement that he cannot be the God he came from.

Hi brother T8,
Thanks for your reply on my post above. So you believe God created Jesus first before all creation ? If so what was he? Whether a god, demi-god, angel, spirit or a man?

Our Bible never discloses his(Jesus') pre-existence so clearly as you and other brothers think here. Even Jesus himself never came in such details about his pre-existence. Paul says in 1Cor 15 that natural man(Adam) is first and the spiritual man(Jesus) is later. If so where is the question of pre-existence of Jesus the man in the Bible. And Hebrews 1 says God spoke to us through His son only in these last days not earlier than that. If so where was this pre-existence and in what form my brother?
Please explain to us.

Thanks and peace to you
Adam

[NickHassan]

Hi GM,
Messiah the prince, the prince of life.
Daniel 9:25
Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

Acts3
13The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Son Jesus; whom ye delivered up, and denied him in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let him go.

14But ye denied the Holy One and the Just, and desired a murderer to be granted unto you;

15And killed the Prince of life, whom God hath raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses.

[gollamudi]

Yes I agree brother Nick that Jesus is the Messiah and the Prince of Life. But when was he became the Messiah and the Prince of life? That is the question often being asked.

Thanks and love to you
Adam

[GeneBalthrop]

Adam…….they have no (Proof) of Jesus' preexistence, just speculations. Jesus' preexistence would (NOT) serve the Plan of GOD, as an example for us at all. What He did was take a foreordained Human being who came into being at his berth on earth and perfected him by the power of His (holy spirit), the (first born in all of creation) to be  Kept from sinning, and raised him from the dead, giving us a perfect example of His saving Power for all of us. This obviously would serve His purpose for all man kind.

But Killing a perfectly perfect being and re berthing  him again to walk perfect before us and then offering him up as a sacrifice would prove nothing to us. There is no way we could say he would have been (exactly) like us if that were the case. These false teachings of Trinity and preexistences are nothing more that the teachings of the Apostate Churches and have corrupted the word of GOD and JESUS both. IMO

peace and love to you and yours Adam…………………………………gene

[NickHassan]

Quote (gollamudi @ April 13 2009,18:56)

Yes I agree brother Nick that Jesus is the Messiah and the Prince of Life. But when was he became the Messiah and the Prince of life? That is the question often being asked. Thanks and love to you Adam

Hi GM,

Daniel 8:25
And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.

[dirtyknections]

Quote (dirtyknections @ April 09 2009,07:45)

Quote (Gene @ April 09 2009,05:33) Kerwin………..you have it right, Jesus was asking for the glory He was Prophesied to have before the world began. He was in GOD'S plan all along.  if Not then why does scripture say (BECAUSE) he emptied out his soul unto death (GOD) Has exalted over all His creation. If He already had that, then it would not be (dependent) on His emptying our His soul. As i said before trinitarians and Preexistences have the same mind set, and don't get discouraged by Nicks inability to us His GOD given Brain. Which can not make any (LOGIC) out of scriptures. This is all part of His confusions He refuses to understand things, believing it is not necessary to. Parroting is good enough for the likes of Him. But we are told to study to show ourselves approved by GOD (RIGHTLY) dividing the word of truth> and that does take logical  thinking.  Those who are being guided by GOD Spirit are looking into the deep things of GOD and seeking what makes sense in the word. IMO peace and love to you and yours…………………………………..gene Not so fast Bro Gene… What you reasoned about phillipians can easily be explained another way…how about this… Philippians 2:7 (New International Version) 7but made himself nothing,      taking the very nature[a] of a servant,      being made in human likeness. Notice the use of the words “made himself” and “took” The greek word for “made” is KENOO which means in greek: -to empty, make empty…or -to make void cause a thing to be seen to be empty, hollow, false and “took” in greek is “lambano” which means “to take what is one's own, to take to one's self, to make one's own” Both these words are possesive and when used are ALWAYS used in connection with a REAL, PHYSICAL CREATURE…it is NEVER used in connection with a “thought” or “plan” as you put it… The greek has different words that can be used in this situation… In order for your explanation to work…a different word would have had to have been used…the word that should be used if we are to follow your reasoning is: GINOMAI….which means to become, i.e. to come into existence, begin to be, receive being to become, i.e. to come to pass, happen of events to arise, appear in history, come upon the stage So as we can see the greek has words that describe something that “comes into existence” and it has words for that are to be used when describing something that took the form of something else…which is why you see the word “kenoo” used instead of “ginomai”

[GeneBalthrop]

BK…………There is no scripture that shows Jesus' preexisted in any state except in the plan of GOD . Peter said it properly, He said Jesus was foreordained (BUT) was manifested in our time.  My point about Philippians was the word (Existed) a past tense, in my Greek linear translation it is translated as Existing a present tense state, not a past tense word.

love and peace to you and yours………………………..gene

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