Preexistence

[theodorej]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 07 2008,20:29)

Hi GM, Indeed he is firstborn from the dead. It is the will of God that he be first in all things. Colossians 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.   That process begins while we live. We are conformed in our minds and hearts and we await the recption of a body like his.

Greetings Nick…..Let me put these thoughts out there in search of your opinion….Lets start with Jesus'existance as the word of God the father….and the word was the means by which the father created all things,by virtrue of just saying”Let there be….”All of these creations are the product of the power of all mighty God,who is spirit”…Through a natural progression in Gods plan to recreate himself,it is decided (let there be..)that the father will create the man in his image and place him higher than the angels…In doing this Jesus (the word of God)becomes flesh and lives among us…Is it possible that Jesus is the exemplification of Gods plan for us…And in being that example is the first born of the dead and will rule Gods' kingdom on this earth..

[gollamudi]

Hi brother Theodorej,
Those are valuable points you just posted. But our brother Nick believes Jesus was preexisting as a being separately from God from the beginning. I say that the “word” of God became flesh in Jesus the man. That's why Jesus used to say that the words he was speaking were not of his own but were belonging to his Father the only God. I don't believe in any preexistence of Jesus as a being prior to his birth through Mary. I also believe that Jesus had become a created being like you and me as he was also born to a woman who is also a created being.
What do you say on these beliefs?
Peace to you
Adam

[GeneBalthrop]

theodorej……right , Jesus is the first born true image of God, God's purpose for man kind. Thats why I believe He said I am the First and the Last, what did He mean by that statement, to me He meant He was the first to image God and the Last man to image God will be exactly like Him. In that sense He is the first and the last. Jesus is said to be the first born from the grave of man kind. But many will , he is the first born of Many. And as the first born he holds the position of first born, which is just below the father.

peace to you and yours………..gene

[Irene]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 08 2008,04:36)

theodorej……right , Jesus is the first born true image of God, God's purpose for man kind. Thats why I believe He said I am the First and the Last, what did He mean by that statement, to me He meant He was the first to image God and the Last man to image God will be exactly like Him. In that sense He is the first and the last. Jesus is said to be the first born from the grave of man kind. But many will , he is the first born of Many. And as the first born he holds the position of first born, which is just below the father. peace to you and yours………..gene

The first creation of God, means the first creation of God and nothing else. After God created Him He gave Him the power to create all. For Him and by Him all was created. Tell me if He is the one that created all, how silly would that sound if I would say by the plan or in the mind of God. That is not what it says.
When are you going to get it, that He (Jesus the Word) created it all.
I think I am going to follow my Husbands advice and stop saying and posting, because it just does not matter how many times I have put Scriptures down, you just don't get it. You interpret the way you want it to say.
I take the Scripture the way it is written. If it says that He is the FIRSTBORN OF ALL CREATION I BELIEVE IT.  REV.3:14
” THE THINGS SAYS THE AMEN, THE FAITHFUL AND TRUE WITNESS,
T H E   B E G I N N I N G   O F   T H E   C R E A T I O N  OF  

                      G O D .      A M E N
And Col. 1:14  HE IS THE IMAGE OF THE INVISIBLE GOD
T H E   F I R S T   B O R N   O V E R   A L L   C R E A T I O N.

FOR BY HIM ALL THINGS WERE CREATED THAT ARE IN HEAVEN
AND THAT ARE ON EARTH, VISIBLE OR UNVISIBLE, WETHER THRONES OR DOMINIONS OR PRINCIPALITIES OR POWERS.
A L L   T H I N G S  W E R E   C R E A T ED   T H R O U G H
 H I M   A N D  F O R   H I M.  A M E N

verse 18 AND HE IS THE HEAD OF THE BODY, THE CHURCH, WHO IS THE BEGINNING, THE FIRSTBORN FROM THE DEAD,
THAT IN ALL HE WILL HAVE PREEMINENCE.

Now look up what preeminence means if you don't know what that means.
It means first in all. In closing for all times because I have put this Scriptures here before for you.
J E S U S   EX S I S T E D   A S   T H E   S O N   O F  G O D

  B E F O R E   T H E   W O R  L D   W A S.    A M E N.

Peace and Love Irene

[dirtyknections]

Quote (Irene @ July 08 2008,07:42)

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 08 2008,04:36) theodorej……right , Jesus is the first born true image of God, God's purpose for man kind. Thats why I believe He said I am the First and the Last, what did He mean by that statement, to me He meant He was the first to image God and the Last man to image God will be exactly like Him. In that sense He is the first and the last. Jesus is said to be the first born from the grave of man kind. But many will , he is the first born of Many. And as the first born he holds the position of first born, which is just below the father. peace to you and yours………..gene The first creation of God, means the first creation of God and nothing else. After God created Him He gave Him the power to create all. For Him and by Him all was created. Tell me if He is the one that created all, how silly would that sound if I would say by the plan or in the mind of God. That is not what it says. When are you going to get it, that He (Jesus the Word) created it all. I think I am going to follow my Husbands advice and stop saying and posting, because it just does not matter how many times I have put Scriptures down, you just don't get it. You interpret the way you want it to say. I take the Scripture the way it is written. If it says that He is the FIRSTBORN OF ALL CREATION I BELIEVE IT.  REV.3:14 ” THE THINGS SAYS THE AMEN, THE FAITHFUL AND TRUE WITNESS, T H E   B E G I N N I N G   O F   T H E   C R E A T I O N  OF                         G O D .      A M E N And Col. 1:14  HE IS THE IMAGE OF THE INVISIBLE GOD T H E   F I R S T   B O R N   O V E R   A L L   C R E A T I O N. FOR BY HIM ALL THINGS WERE CREATED THAT ARE IN HEAVEN AND THAT ARE ON EARTH, VISIBLE OR UNVISIBLE, WETHER THRONES OR DOMINIONS OR PRINCIPALITIES OR POWERS. A L L   T H I N G S  W E R E   C R E A T ED   T H R O U G H  H I M   A N D  F O R   H I M.  A M E N verse 18 AND HE IS THE HEAD OF THE BODY, THE CHURCH, WHO IS THE BEGINNING, THE FIRSTBORN FROM THE DEAD, THAT IN ALL HE WILL HAVE PREEMINENCE. Now look up what preeminence means if you don't know what that means. It means first in all. In closing for all times because I have put this Scriptures here before for you. J E S U S   EX S I S T E D   A S   T H E   S O N   O F  G O D   B E F O R E   T H E   W O R  L D   W A S.    A M E N. Peace and Love Irene

Amen!!!

[gollamudi]

Quote (chosenone @ July 07 2008,15:19)

May I give my opinion?     Jesus existed before his earthly coming.       He (Jesus), was “First born of every creature” (Co.1:15-16).  He (Jesus) was also “Gods' creative original” (Rev.3:14).  These two scriptures tell us that the first thing God created was Jesus Christ.       Now all was created by the power of God, through Jesus Christ.  …for in Him is all created, the visible and the invisible, whether thrones, or lordships,or sovereignties,or authorities, all is created through Him, and for Him, and He is before all, and all has its cohesion in Him. (Col.1:16-17)       Now also …to head up all in the Christ – both that in the heavens and that in the earth – in Him in Who our lot was cast also, being designated beforehand according to the purpose the One Who is poerating all in accord with the councel of His will, that we should be for the laud of His glory, who are pre-expectant in the Christ. (Eph.1:10-12).     “I am the Alpha and Omega, (Rev.1:8).  Meaning “the first and the last”.  So in summing up, The “alpha” meaning He was the first thing God created.  And the Omega, meaning the last thing God creates, the end of creation, the “consummation” (1Cor.15:28) …when Christ turns over all sovereignty and authority, and power to God.  And He Himself will be subject to God.  And God will “be All in all”.     This is my understanding.  Hope it helps. God Bless,  Jerry.

Hi brother Jerry,
You also believe Jesus' personal preexistence prior to his birth through Mary?

[gollamudi]

Hi brother Gene,
What about the post of our brother Chosenone above?
It seems he also believes in preexistence of Jesus.

[Irene]

Quote (gollamudi @ July 10 2008,03:35)

Hi brother Gene, What about the post of our brother Chosenone above? It seems he also believes in preexistence of Jesus.

Question is do you believe it?
Irene

[gollamudi]

Hi Irene,
I have already gave my opinion earlier many times that I don't believe in any literal preexistence of souls prior to their birth same thing is true with Jesus. He was foreordained by God before the foundations of the world but not preexsting literally prior to his birth in Mary.
Thanks
Adam

[Irene]

Quote (gollamudi @ July 10 2008,13:42)

Hi Irene, I have already gave my opinion earlier many times that I don't believe in any literal preexistence of souls prior to their birth same thing is true with Jesus. He was foreordained by God before the foundations of the world but not preexsting literally prior to his birth in Mary. Thanks Adam

Adam  Then you are denying Scriptures which is not wise to do. Better study all the Scriptures I gave all. There are to many for me to deny. I too did that in the beginning, but God did not leave me in that unbelief. For that I am thankful for. It took me some time, tho to finally except it. Since it is a doctrine of the J.W. some do not want to except it, but that to me is wrong too. IMO
Tell me Adam when it says that He is the first born of all creation and then creates all by Him and for Him, how do you explain that? That He created what is in Heaven and that which is in earth, how do you explain that? And then there is the Word God who is with God. Simple says that He was with God. How do you explain that? Then who is us and our in Genesis? If nobody has heard the Fathers voice or seen His form, who was it with Moses on the mountain. A Voice has to be a being, to speak. And it says that it is God. God the Word.
When I first began to understand it was exiting to me, that I finally understood it. My hope for you is, that it will happen for you too. Have an open mind, and ask God for understanding. You know a wise Man once told me that the Bible is a big Puzzle and all pieces fit. They do.
Irene

[gollamudi]

Hi Sis Irene,
I appreciate your concern for me. In fact I was a strong believer of all these doctrines prior to joining this forum. But now I am unlearning many of such doctrines and started learning afresh all these new understandings because of God's grace and His guidence through His Spirit. I do have open mind otherwise I could have not joined a serious debate like this on sensitive issues like preexistence and divinity of Jesus.

I have already replied your posts earlier on Col 1:12-17, Heb 1:1-2, Rev 3:14 and Jn 1:1. I only believe that Jesus has been given the preeminence in this creation when it says he was firstborn of the creation. But Jesus was not the first created in the order. Even you can understand this from Paul's words of calling Jesus as Last or second Adam. Even trinitarians believe that the “word” was not become a person Jesus untill he was literally born in Mary. I am still open minded in my search and not close minded.
peace to you
Adam

[Irene]

Quote (gollamudi @ July 11 2008,02:02)

Hi Sis Irene, I appreciate your concern for me. In fact I was a strong believer of all these doctrines prior to joining this forum. But now I am unlearning many of such doctrines and started learning afresh all these new understandings because of God's grace and His guidence through His Spirit. I do have open mind otherwise I could have not joined a serious debate like this on sensitive issues like preexistence and divinity of Jesus. I have already replied your posts earlier on Col 1:12-17, Heb 1:1-2, Rev 3:14 and Jn 1:1. I only believe that Jesus has been given the preeminence in this creation when it says he was firstborn of the creation. But Jesus was not the first created in the order. Even you can understand this from Paul's words of calling Jesus as Last or second Adam. Even trinitarians believe that the “word” was not become a person Jesus untill he was literally born in Mary. I am still open minded in my search and not close minded. peace to you Adam

Question It says that Jesus created all. How did He do that if He did not exsist?
Irene

[GeneBalthrop]

Irene … the scripture you are refering to says through him< but if you care to look it up you will find the word through and be just as easily translated (FOR), and being we have many scriptures that say God created every thing alone or by Himself, you have to chose the proper word there from the sum of Gods word, and if you do it will come out to be (FOR) not by or through, other wise you would have a counter diction of scriptures.

love and peace to you and yours………gene

[dirtyknections]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 11 2008,06:26)

Irene … the scripture you are refering to says through him< but if you care to look it up you will find the word through and be just as easily translated (FOR), and being we have many scriptures that say God created every thing alone or by Himself, you have to chose the proper word there from the sum of Gods word, and if you do it will come out to be (FOR) not by or through, other wise you would have a counter diction of scriptures. love and peace to you and yours………gene

Brother Gene..I hate to do this..BUT THAT IS CATEGORICALLY UNTRUE…

The Overwhelming majority of scholars, translators, and Hebrew Language Purists, say that the proper meaning and translation of the word “eÍn” or “eÍk” which is used at colssians 1:16…is “THRU” or “BY”

eÍn- a primary preposition denoting (fixed) position (in place, time or state), and (by implication) instrumentality (medially or constructively), i.e. a relation of rest (intermediate between

eÍk- a primary preposition denoting origin (the point whence action or motion proceeds), from, out (of place, time, or cause)

You do this alot brother Gene…find obscure translations and sources that “seem” to fit your doctrine…you did the same thing when we were discussing John 6:44 and whether “drag” is more appropriate than “draw”…

Stick to what the bible says brother…As Ms. Irene said…the BIBLE says Jesus pre-existed and created the all things..believe the word..test the spirits brother Gene..they are decieving you

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (dirtyknections @ July 11 2008,06:59)

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 11 2008,06:26) Irene … the scripture you are refering to says through him< but if you care to look it up you will find the word through and be just as easily translated (FOR), and being we have many scriptures that say God created every thing alone or by Himself, you have to chose the proper word there from the sum of Gods word, and if you do it will come out to be (FOR) not by or through, other wise you would have a counter diction of scriptures. love and peace to you and yours………gene Brother Gene..I hate to do this..BUT THAT IS CATEGORICALLY UNTRUE… The Overwhelming majority of scholars, translators, and Hebrew Language Purists, say that the proper meaning and translation of the word “eÍn” or “eÍk” which is used at colssians 1:16…is  “THRU” or “BY” eÍn- a primary preposition denoting (fixed) position (in place, time or state), and (by implication) instrumentality (medially or constructively), i.e. a relation of rest (intermediate between eÍk- a primary preposition denoting origin (the point whence action or motion proceeds), from, out (of place, time, or cause) You do this alot brother Gene…find obscure translations and sources that “seem” to fit your doctrine…you did the same thing when we were discussing John 6:44 and whether “drag” is more appropriate than “draw”… Stick to what the bible says brother…As Ms. Irene said…the BIBLE says Jesus pre-existed and created the all things..believe the word..test the spirits brother Gene..they are decieving you

DK

How true!

[NickHassan]

Hi GM,
The Word was with God in the beginning.
The Word is identified as Jesus in 1 Jn1 and Rev 19
The details are not revealed but as such it is written.

[Irene]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 11 2008,08:50)

Hi GM, The Word was with God in the beginning. The Word is identified as Jesus in 1 Jn1 and Rev 19 The details are not revealed but as such it is written.

Amen

[GeneBalthrop]

If we say Jesus is the one who created everything then you have two options either Jesus is almighty God or scripture contradicts it self because God said He created the world by His self and alone, and that there is no other True God besides Him, You either have to become a trinitarian or realize the the verse means (For) Christ. You can't have both ways I agree with WJ on that

peace to you and yours………..gene

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 11 2008,10:37)

If we say Jesus is the one who created everything then you have two options either Jesus is almighty God or scripture contradicts it self because God said He created the world by His self and alone, and that there is no other True God besides Him, You either have to become a trinitarian or realize the the verse means (For) Christ. You can't have both ways I agree with WJ on that peace to you and yours………..gene

GB

I agree!

I think the only way to explain these things is the “Trinitarian view”.

I believe the Unitarians has less contradictions than the Henotheist and Arians.

That is the delima that the Henotheist and the Arians run into is that only YHWH by himself, with none other made all things.

So in my opinion the Unitarains are are more noble to the scriptures than the Henotheist and the Arians, concerning the nature of God!

WJ

[GeneBalthrop]

Irene….it say Jesus was the first (BORN) not created, Born imply' s a berth process, and the word (through or by) in Greek is the same word for (FOR) so if you were a trinitarian translater which word would you us to prove Jesus is the almighty GOD.

The first (BORN) of all creation is simply saying Jesus was first to be Born from the grave or man kind to be in the kingdom of GOD. of all creation.It is not implying first created of all creation, but BORN>.

IMO……gene

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