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Hi Is 1.18,
Did you want your boxes ticked?
That sort of narrows the vision a little.
We need to stay openminded to learn truth.Quote (Is 1:18 @ June 29 2007,10:56) Quote (Adam Pastor @ June 29 2007,00:15) That's right.
In the context of 1 Cor 8.6 the Father is not the 'One Lord'; just as Jesus is not the 'One God'Why?
Because the ONE GOD, YAHWEH, the Father, has made Jesus of Nazareth, both Lord and Messiah … GOD has made him 'Lord of all' [Acts 2.36, 10.36]Hence
(Phil 2:11) And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.
Well that's interesting AP. By your logic Jesus would have surplanted YHWH as our ultimate authority (owner, ruler, sovereign). Like I said, if you assert that Paul is making a statement of ontological exclusivity in writing 1 Cor 8:6 it creates more dilemmas than it solves. This is especially true when the remaining part of the verse is taken into consideration:1 Corinthians 8:6
yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.If Jesus is being contrasted with “God” by Paul here then why does he go on to say: “by whom are all things, and we exist through Him”? The context of the verse suggests “all things” owe both the origin and preservation of their very existence to both God and Jesus. They worked together in bringing all things into existence and they work together in preserving the Creation. That's not something Paul would write if his intention was to dichotomise the ontologies of God and Jesus. Quite the opposite. If you read 1 Cor 8:1-7 carefully it's apparent that the distinction that Paul is driving at is not Jesus vs God, it's Jesus/God vs false gods. It's because of his language in the passage that some people see this passage as Paul's attempt to rework the Shema (Deut 6:4), placing Jesus right in the centre of it…..
FYC:
http://www.northpark.edu/sem/exauditu/papers/wright.html
Quote There is indeed a difference between LORD and Lord especially in the Hebrew text. LORD in caps is GOD's Name, viz. YAHWEH
He is called 'Lord' that is, He is called Adonai (449 times in the Hebrew text)
No man including Jesus is called Adonai; that alone is GOD's title.
How is this relevant to 1 Cor 8:6? The word at issue is “kurios” and it's used of both the Father and Son to denote 'authority' (owner, ruler, sovereign). It's also used of both in contexts that demand a “YHWH” rendering (e.g. Rom 10:-9-13).Quote YAHWEH alone is Adonai
Therefore the ONE GOD, ADONAI YAHWEH [Lord GOD in our English text];
has made the man Messiah Jesus, the One Lord of all.
It goes without saying that Christ's Lordship does not include YAHWEH GOD ALMIGHTY
(cp. 1 Cor 15.27 he is excepted)
I would be interested in seeing you prove that in every instance “adonai” is used in the OT that it explicitly refers to the Father of Jesus…..Quote So, Paul declares that in this world of so-called gods & lords;
to US [THE EARLY APOSTOLIC CHURCH]
there is ONE God, the Father …
and there is ONE Lord, Jesus the Messiah
See my point above about Paul's intended distinction.Quote That is it! These claims are exclusive. - Almighty GOD alone is GOD … there is no other almighty or co-equal God besides Him! He alone is GOD, there is no other.
YAHWEH alone is the ONE GOD, the Father. The Only True GOD [John 17.3]
(1 Cor 8:4) … that there is none other God but one.
I guess someone forgot to tell Thomas (John 20:28).
Quote - And Jesus of Nazareth the Messiah is the ONE Lord. He alone is the ONE Lord; because the Only True GOD, his Father; has made him 'Lord' to His (GOD's) glory.
If the Father is God to the exclusion of Jesus then equally Jesus is Lord to the exclusion of God. And if this is true then the Father has no right of authority over us. None.Quote - So, ONE GOD, the Father
and ONE Man, the Lord Jesus the Messiah, the Son of the Father. [2 john 3]Alright AP, given that you evidently believe that Jesus is Lord (master) to the exclusion of the Father, tell me how this verse fits into that formula:
Luke 16:13
13″No servant can serve two masters [Gr. kurios]; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or else he will be devoted to one and despise the other You cannot serve God and wealth.”The implication here is we are to devotely serve only one master (kurios), and that master is God. If Jesus is our ONLY Lord then it logically follows that He is also “God” in this verse. Right?
Quote - (1 Tim 2:5) For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men,
the man Christ Jesus;It can't be broken down much simpler than that!
What better mediator that One who is both man and God….Blessings
Is 1:18Excellent points!
Oh my, how the truth will set you free!
There is only “One Lord” (master) yet men call on a man (in their minds he is only an exalted man), Jesus as their Lord and Master.
Isa 45:21
Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and *there is no God else beside me*; a just God and a Saviour; *there is none beside me*.Isa 46:9
Remember the former things of old: for *I am God, and there is none else*; I am God, and *there is none like me*,
God has not changed his mind! He is our only Saviour.
The Father Son and Holy Spirit, One God!
It is written.
Hi ,
God is still Lord of all.
Acts 17 24God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;25Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;
26And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;
27That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:”
But God has appointed Christ as Lord.
Acts 2
36Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 29 2007,14:15) Hi ,
God is still Lord of all.
Acts 17 24God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;25Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;
26And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;
27That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:”
But God has appointed Christ as Lord.
Acts 2
36Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
Okay. So you agree that 1 Cor 8:6 does not prove that Yeshua is “Lord” to the exclusion of the Father. That's great. Since this is true, the verse also does not prove that the Father is God to the exclusion of Yeshua.Thanks NH, you've proved my point.
Quote Is logic the answer? 1 Peter 3:15 (AMP)
But in your hearts set Christ apart as holy [and acknowledge Him] as Lord. Always be ready to give a logical defense to anyone who asks you to account for the hope that is in you, but do it courteously and respectfully.Quote (Is 1:18 @ June 29 2007,17:27) Quote Is logic the answer? 1 Peter 3:15 (AMP)
But in your hearts set Christ apart as holy [and acknowledge Him] as Lord. Always be ready to give a logical defense to anyone who asks you to account for the hope that is in you, but do it courteously and respectfully.
In all seriousness NH. I think logic is very important in interpreting scripture. Paul often employed it in his letters. Yeshua was the ultimate logician, he used it extensively in His exchanges with the Pharisees and Saducees, often astonishing listeners with His brilliant aptitude with it (e.g. Matthew 21:23-32).Quote (Not3in1 @ June 29 2007,17:42) Logic tells us that when someone is born, it is the first time they are on the scene!
Which law of logic?Mandy's Law of Logic! The book deals are streaming in…….
I did not preexist, and I'm quite certain that you did not exist – so my logic tells me that anyone who is born did not preexist.
Now that is a good example of sound reasoning (logic), is it not?
Quote (Not3in1 @ June 29 2007,17:42) Logic tells us that when someone is born, it is the first time they are on the scene!
Hi not3,
So what of the firstborn of creation?Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 29 2007,23:18) Quote (Not3in1 @ June 29 2007,17:42) Logic tells us that when someone is born, it is the first time they are on the scene!
Hi not3,
So what of the firstborn of creation?
Hi Nick,What exactly did Paul mean?
Was Jesus the very first thing in existence, born of God before God created anything else? If so, how did being born differ from being created?Was Jesus the first thing that God created?
Was Jesus the first child ever conceived and born of God
in all of His creation, even though later in creation?God forgive me, sometimes I actually get irritated at how vague Paul wrote at times.
Tim
Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 29 2007,23:18) Quote (Not3in1 @ June 29 2007,17:42) Logic tells us that when someone is born, it is the first time they are on the scene!
Hi not3,
So what of the firstborn of creation?
Which creation?Quote (TimothyVI @ June 30 2007,01:29) God forgive me, sometimes I actually get irritated at how vague Paul wrote at times.
Brother, I agree!However, there is very little (if any) evidence that Jesus preexisted. The evidence that is brought to the table is not nearly as strong as the basic vocabulary used to tell us that Jesus was conceived and born.
Because there isn't any solid proof of preexistence, I have found that the subject lends itself to much construction. Folks build on verses that they have grouped together to “create” a preexistence theology.
If there isn't clear instruction, then any given topic should not be stretched to mean other things – this is my humble opinion.
When scripture says Jesus was conceived – then I believe it.
When scripture says Jesus was born – then I believe it.
When scripture says Jesus was a Son – then I believe it.
When scripture says Jesus died – then I believe it.
When scripture says God is only One – then I believe it.I will not read into these things or change what the vocabulary means for these things.
It is what it is. Period. Everything else is man's reasoning and constructions.
to all. > anyone who does not confess the Jesus came into being as a fully and only flesh and blood human being is (NOT) of God.and that is the spirit (intellect) of antichrist.
ask yourself why does John tie this flesh awareness to anticrist , it was because this would move Jesus from a man like the apostles and you and me to a God. And breakes the first commandment “you shall have no other God, besides me”.
trenitarians have made another God and are progenitaors of Idolatry. Jesus himself will destory (THE LIE) at his comming. just like it say's.
this act creates the MAN OF SIN, spoken of by the apostle Paul.in 2ths.
and Jesus only preexisted in the plan and will of God. Just like Peter said ” he was ordained (in the plan of God) before the world begain
(BUT) was Manafested (Came into being) in our time.Quote (Is 1:18 @ June 29 2007,18:04) Quote (Not3in1 @ June 29 2007,17:42) Logic tells us that when someone is born, it is the first time they are on the scene!
Which law of logic?
Isn't it entirely possible that Jesus Christ was born into the flesh but is spiritually eternal?- Almighty GOD alone is GOD … there is no other almighty or co-equal God besides Him! He alone is GOD, there is no other.
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