Preexistence

[Lightenup]

Quote (942767 @ May 25 2008,14:01)

Hi Lightenup: You give me a summary of your understanding as follows: Quote In summary my understanding: In the beginning was the word        “let there be light” and the word was with God              the light existed with God and the word was God                      the light was God, the begotten one And so, according to you, the light existed with God and the the light was God the begotten one.  Two Gods?

Hi 94,
Good question. We have ONE “Most High God” who ALWAYS existed-the Heavenly Father. Any other “God” even the Only Begotten God who became Christ did not always exist so there is only one true God and that is the Most High God-our Heavenly Father.

However, in some contexts we see Christ as our God in scriptures and HE IS because He is perfect and only obeys His Father-the one true God and only acts on his own will as it ligns up with the Father's, also because the one true God has Him in that position as our God for our benefit. He was God for us from His beginning.

Two Gods but in the ultimate context of the expression One God-the Father, the Most High God.

Thanks for your question,
God bless 94!

[942767]

Quote (Lightenup @ May 26 2008,14:17)

Quote (942767 @ May 25 2008,14:01) Hi Lightenup: You give me a summary of your understanding as follows: Quote In summary my understanding: In the beginning was the word        “let there be light” and the word was with God              the light existed with God and the word was God                      the light was God, the begotten one And so, according to you, the light existed with God and the the light was God the begotten one.  Two Gods? Hi 94, Good question.  We have ONE “Most High God” who ALWAYS existed-the Heavenly Father.  Any other “God” even the Only Begotten God who became Christ did not always exist so there is only one true God and that is the Most High God-our Heavenly Father.   However, in some contexts we see Christ as our God in scriptures and HE IS because He is perfect and only obeys His Father-the one true God and only acts on his own will as it ligns up with the Father's, also because the one true God has Him in that position as our God for our benefit.  He was God for us from His beginning. Two Gods but in the ultimate context of the expression One God-the Father, the Most High God. Thanks for your question, God bless 94!

Hi Lightenup:

He is God in that he is the express image of God's person. As he said in John 14 “He who has seen me has seen the Father. We have seen the Father through the works that Jesus did in obedience to God's Word.

But there is only “One God”, and the head of Christ is God, and the head of man is Christ, and the head of woman is man. We the church are subjected to God through the Word of God that has come to us from God through Jesus our Lord.

When we obey his commandments, we are obeying God.

God Bless

[Lightenup]

Hi 94,
I agree with you in the above post. We have one God. But you have to remember that our One God calls His Son “God” in Hebrews:
Heb 1:8-9

8 But of the Son He says,

“YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER,
AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM.
9 “YOU HAVE LOVED RIGHTEOUSNESS AND HATED LAWLESSNESS;
THEREFORE GOD, YOUR GOD, HAS ANOINTED YOU
WITH THE OIL OF GLADNESS ABOVE YOUR COMPANIONS.”
NASU
Context is king!

Blessings!

[NickHassan]

Hi LU,
Paul showed that others being called GOD was not to imply that for us there are many GODS.
FOR US there is ONE GOD, THE FATHER-1Cor 8.

[Lightenup]

Hi Nick,
As per my understanding, and we have been through this before:

FOR US there is ONE Most High God, The Father
and One Begotten God, The Lord Jesus Christ.

Begotten God of whom? Every man.
1 Cor 11:3
3 But I want you to understand that Christ is the head of every man, and the man is the head of a woman, and God is the head of Christ.
NASU

God bless you Nick!

[NickHassan]

Hi LU,
Does scripture says Jesus is GOD OF anyone?

[gollamudi]

Quote (Lightenup @ May 26 2008,15:17)

Hi 94, I agree with you in the above post.  We have one God.  But you have to remember that our One God calls His Son “God” in Hebrews: Heb 1:8-9 8 But of the Son He says, “YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER, AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM. 9 “YOU HAVE LOVED RIGHTEOUSNESS AND HATED LAWLESSNESS; THEREFORE GOD, YOUR GOD, HAS ANOINTED YOU WITH THE OIL OF GLADNESS ABOVE YOUR COMPANIONS.” NASU Context is king! Blessings!

Hi LightenUp,
yes, Jesus is called god (no capitals), in this verse not that he himsef is God. We have to understand this 'god' in relation to the explanation given by Jesus in Jn 10:33-36, where men are also called gods in the law (Ps 82:6-7). If you see the later portion of Heb 1:8, Son is having God above him. You have to understand these verses with their overall meaning, taking the internal meaning of scriptures.
Don't be confused, “For us there is One God that is the Father” (1 Cori 8:6). Jesus is called as One Lord which means a person who is in the authority given by that One God.
Peace to you.
Adam

[GeneBalthrop]

Adam………..you got it right brother.

gene

[seek and you will find]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 26 2008,16:41)

Hi LU, Does scripture says Jesus is GOD OF anyone?

Nick The way I understand it, that Jesus was called God by John His Brother, and by the Father Himself. So who's God is He? If He is the Head of men would you not think that He is our God by the power of the Almighty being the Head overall. Jesus is our King of Kings and Lord of Lords and deserves Honor and glory. As a King. If you understand that God is a title then you can put all the puzzles together and they fit. When it say's there is only one God, it means there is only one Almighty God. And what is His name? You think I have it right? I think Lightenup has it right. Looking back at your Post and t8 it said as much.
Peace and Love Mrs.

[Lightenup]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 26 2008,00:41)

Hi LU, Does scripture says Jesus is GOD OF anyone?

Hi Nick,

Titus 2:11-14

11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men, 12 instructing us to deny ungodliness and worldly desires and to live sensibly, righteously and godly in the present age, 13 looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus, 14 who gave Himself for us to redeem us from every lawless deed, and to purify for Himself a people for His own possession, zealous for good deeds.
NASU

Paul called Him:
“our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus”

Peace!

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Lightenup @ May 27 2008,06:04)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 26 2008,00:41) Hi LU, Does scripture says Jesus is GOD OF anyone? Hi Nick, Titus 2:11-14 11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men, 12 instructing us to deny ungodliness and worldly desires and to live sensibly, righteously and godly in the present age, 13 looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus, 14 who gave Himself for us to redeem us from every lawless deed, and to purify for Himself a people for His own possession, zealous for good deeds. NASU Paul called Him: “our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus” Peace!

LU

I appreciate that you see Yeshua as God. However to see Yeshua as a separate sentient being than the Father God, IMO is in violation of the Hebrew scriptures which claim that there is only one God and that we are not to even mention the name of other so-called gods.

Biblical Monotheism allows for only “One Divine Being”.

This is why I believe that to reconcile all the Biblical data, the Trinitarian view best explains the scriptures.

Blessings  

[Lightenup]

Quote (Lightenup @ May 25 2008,22:17)

Quote (942767 @ May 25 2008,14:01) Hi Lightenup: You give me a summary of your understanding as follows: Quote In summary my understanding: In the beginning was the word        “let there be light” and the word was with God              the light existed with God and the word was God                      the light was God, the begotten one And so, according to you, the light existed with God and the the light was God the begotten one.  Two Gods? Hi 94, Good question.  We have ONE “Most High God” who ALWAYS existed-the Heavenly Father.  Any other “God” even the Only Begotten God who became Christ did not always exist so there is only one true God and that is the Most High God-our Heavenly Father.   However, in some contexts we see Christ as our God in scriptures and HE IS because He is perfect and only obeys His Father-the one true God and only acts on his own will as it ligns up with the Father's, also because the one true God has Him in that position as our God for our benefit.  He was God for us from His beginning. Two Gods but in the ultimate context of the expression One God-the Father, the Most High God. Thanks for your question, God bless 94!

Hello Gollamudi,
How are things in India? That is where you are from, yes?

Please read my above post that I have quoted within this message.

I don't get hung up on big G little g. That is not the issue. All the original Greek was written in only capital letters like THIS. I capitalize it when it pertains to someone that has authority over me from here to eternity otherwise it gets a small g.

God bless,
LU

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Lightenup @ May 27 2008,06:40)

Quote (Lightenup @ May 25 2008,22:17) Quote (942767 @ May 25 2008,14:01) Hi Lightenup: You give me a summary of your understanding as follows: Quote In summary my understanding: In the beginning was the word        “let there be light” and the word was with God              the light existed with God and the word was God                      the light was God, the begotten one And so, according to you, the light existed with God and the the light was God the begotten one.  Two Gods? Hi 94, Good question.  We have ONE “Most High God” who ALWAYS existed-the Heavenly Father.  Any other “God” even the Only Begotten God who became Christ did not always exist so there is only one true God and that is the Most High God-our Heavenly Father.   However, in some contexts we see Christ as our God in scriptures and HE IS because He is perfect and only obeys His Father-the one true God and only acts on his own will as it ligns up with the Father's, also because the one true God has Him in that position as our God for our benefit.  He was God for us from His beginning. Two Gods but in the ultimate context of the expression One God-the Father, the Most High God. Thanks for your question, God bless 94! Hello Gollamudi, How are things in India?  That is where you are from, yes? Please read my above post that I have quoted within this message. I don't get hung up on big G little g.  That is not the issue.  All the original Greek was written in only capital letters like THIS.  I capitalize it when it pertains to someone that has authority over me from here to eternity otherwise it gets a small g. God bless, LU

LU

Consider this. The light in Genesis was a “created light” agreed. But if this is so and you say the Word/Yeshua is that created light, then how does this created light fit in this verse?…

John 1:3
All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

If the all things includes time, space and matter which includes created light, then Yeshua would have created himself for “without him was not anything made that was made”.

Blessings!

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 27 2008,07:05)

Quote (Lightenup @ May 27 2008,06:40) Quote (Lightenup @ May 25 2008,22:17) Quote (942767 @ May 25 2008,14:01) Hi Lightenup: You give me a summary of your understanding as follows: Quote In summary my understanding: In the beginning was the word        “let there be light” and the word was with God              the light existed with God and the word was God                      the light was God, the begotten one And so, according to you, the light existed with God and the the light was God the begotten one.  Two Gods? Hi 94, Good question.  We have ONE “Most High God” who ALWAYS existed-the Heavenly Father.  Any other “God” even the Only Begotten God who became Christ did not always exist so there is only one true God and that is the Most High God-our Heavenly Father.   However, in some contexts we see Christ as our God in scriptures and HE IS because He is perfect and only obeys His Father-the one true God and only acts on his own will as it ligns up with the Father's, also because the one true God has Him in that position as our God for our benefit.  He was God for us from His beginning. Two Gods but in the ultimate context of the expression One God-the Father, the Most High God. Thanks for your question, God bless 94! Hello Gollamudi, How are things in India?  That is where you are from, yes? Please read my above post that I have quoted within this message. I don't get hung up on big G little g.  That is not the issue.  All the original Greek was written in only capital letters like THIS.  I capitalize it when it pertains to someone that has authority over me from here to eternity otherwise it gets a small g. God bless, LU LU Consider this. The light in Genesis was a “created light” agreed. But if this is so and you say the Word/Yeshua is that created light, then how does this created light fit in this verse?… John 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. If the all things includes time, space and matter which includes created light, then Yeshua would have created himself for “without him was not anything made that was made”. Blessings!

LU

Also consider this. If Yeshua is merely the Spoken Word of God, then was there ever a time that God did not have a Word?

Gods Word was in him from eternity past, and that Word was always living.

Yeshua was called the Word not because he was spoken into being but because he always existed as the One speaking the eternal living words of God.

Jesus spoke the words of God, and in many places in the scriptures takes claim to them as being his own words.

IMO

[NickHassan]

Hi WJ,
You do not need to add to scripture.

The Word is the Son of God who was with God in the beginning.
The Father of spirits has no beginning.
Words have an origin.

[seek and you will find]

Nick You have not anwered my question, how come?
Peace and Love Mrs.

[Lightenup]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 26 2008,14:29)

Quote (Lightenup @ May 27 2008,06:04) Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 26 2008,00:41) Hi LU, Does scripture says Jesus is GOD OF anyone? Hi Nick, Titus 2:11-14 11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men, 12 instructing us to deny ungodliness and worldly desires and to live sensibly, righteously and godly in the present age, 13 looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus, 14 who gave Himself for us to redeem us from every lawless deed, and to purify for Himself a people for His own possession, zealous for good deeds. NASU Paul called Him: “our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus” Peace! LU I appreciate that you see Yeshua as God. However to see Yeshua as a separate sentient being than the Father God, IMO is in violation of the Hebrew scriptures which claim that there is only one God and that we are not to even mention the name of other so-called gods. Biblical Monotheism allows for only “One Divine Being”. This is why I believe that to reconcile all the Biblical data, the Trinitarian view best explains the scriptures. Blessings

Hi WJ,

I do appreciate your support in the past, you have been kind to me, thank you! (I pray that you read this post in the friendly conversation way that it is intended. ) This is an area that we differ in and my prayer is that we could come to unity. We will eventually because God will show us clearly in the future.

I believe in nly one “most High God” yes! Whatever that Most High God does or gives us is for our benefit and that is how it is. If He gives us His Son to reign over us then that is how it is. If He refers to Him as “God” then that is how it is. If the Hebrews want to know who is the Most High God, the only Most High God, that would be the Father of Christ. If they want to follow the Most High God, then they will also follow Christ because that is how the Father has established it. It is for Him to say what is what. The buck drops with Him.

Back in the Old Testament, following a son of God as their Lord, well I suppose that would have been a mystery and confusing to the Hebrews. It is all revealed in the New Testament through the Son. Before the Son explains God and the relationship He has with Him, it was a mystery, not to say that there still isn't some mystery today.

IMO whatever name one calls the Son of God, if it means to them that He is the Most High God then they would be violating the Hebrew scriptures. Because that would be making Him either equal to the Father and the same being or making the Father not the only true God or making Him part of a trinity, etc. And, NO, Jesus is not a false God if that is what you were thinking. He is the only TRUE Begotten God, not equal to the only true Most High God from where He gets life.

Also, there is only one divine Most High Being and only one divine Begotten Being. The Old Testament didn't reveal the only divine Begotten Being. It was the New Testament that did. Again, IMO.

John 5:26-27
26 “For just as the Father has life in Himself, even so He gave to the Son also to have life in Himself…NASU

BTW, if the Son was GIVEN life in Himself, (initial life or eternal life) then He didn't already have it. Therefore, He can't always be eternal backwards and forwards and then can't be equal to the Most High God. IMO.

I hope that I wrote this in a clear way.
Blessings and Happy Memorial Day to you and your family, WJ!

[NickHassan]

Quote (Lightenup @ May 27 2008,06:04)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 26 2008,00:41) Hi LU, Does scripture says Jesus is GOD OF anyone? Hi Nick, Titus 2:11-14 11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men, 12 instructing us to deny ungodliness and worldly desires and to live sensibly, righteously and godly in the present age, 13 looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus, 14 who gave Himself for us to redeem us from every lawless deed, and to purify for Himself a people for His own possession, zealous for good deeds. NASU Paul called Him: “our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus” Peace!

Hi LU,
Other manuscripts I believe say
“..our great God and of our saviour Jesus Christ..”
God is now inseparable from his Vessel, Christ Jesus.

[NickHassan]

Quote (seek and you will find @ May 27 2008,04:56)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 26 2008,16:41) Hi LU, Does scripture says Jesus is GOD OF anyone? Nick The way I understand it, that Jesus was called God by John His Brother, and by the Father Himself. So who's God is He? If He is the Head of men would you not think that He is our God by the power of the Almighty being the Head overall. Jesus is our King of Kings and Lord of Lords and deserves Honor and glory. As a King. If you understand that God is a title then you can put all the puzzles together and they fit. When it say's there is only one God, it means there is only one Almighty God. And what is His name? You think I have it right? I think Lightenup has it right. Looking back at your Post and t8 it said as much. Peace and Love Mrs.

Hi Mrs,
When God called Jesus GOD he was not saying he had any authority over Himself.

Do you mean Thomas?

The God of John and Thomas was the God of Jesus too and Thomas expressed his new understanding of the eternal unity between the Father and His vessel Jesus.

[Lightenup]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 26 2008,15:14)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 27 2008,07:05) Quote (Lightenup @ May 27 2008,06:40) Quote (Lightenup @ May 25 2008,22:17) Quote (942767 @ May 25 2008,14:01) Hi Lightenup: You give me a summary of your understanding as follows: Quote In summary my understanding: In the beginning was the word        “let there be light” and the word was with God              the light existed with God and the word was God                      the light was God, the begotten one And so, according to you, the light existed with God and the the light was God the begotten one.  Two Gods? Hi 94, Good question.  We have ONE “Most High God” who ALWAYS existed-the Heavenly Father.  Any other “God” even the Only Begotten God who became Christ did not always exist so there is only one true God and that is the Most High God-our Heavenly Father.   However, in some contexts we see Christ as our God in scriptures and HE IS because He is perfect and only obeys His Father-the one true God and only acts on his own will as it ligns up with the Father's, also because the one true God has Him in that position as our God for our benefit.  He was God for us from His beginning. Two Gods but in the ultimate context of the expression One God-the Father, the Most High God. Thanks for your question, God bless 94! Hello Gollamudi, How are things in India?  That is where you are from, yes? Please read my above post that I have quoted within this message. I don't get hung up on big G little g.  That is not the issue.  All the original Greek was written in only capital letters like THIS.  I capitalize it when it pertains to someone that has authority over me from here to eternity otherwise it gets a small g. God bless, LU LU Consider this. The light in Genesis was a “created light” agreed. But if this is so and you say the Word/Yeshua is that created light, then how does this created light fit in this verse?… John 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. If the all things includes time, space and matter which includes created light, then Yeshua would have created himself for “without him was not anything made that was made”. Blessings! LU Also consider this. If Yeshua is merely the Spoken Word of God, then was there ever a time that God did not have a Word? Gods Word was in him from eternity past, and that Word was always living. Yeshua was called the Word not because he was spoken into being but because he always existed as the One speaking the eternal living words of God. Jesus spoke the words of God, and in many places in the scriptures takes claim to them as being his own words. IMO

Hi WJ,
I am glad that you have been following along.

First of all, I believe that the Son of God was not created but born of God (most likely in an asexual way). So, if He is the Light of day one, the first words in the beginning “let there be Light” may have been the announcement just before the birth.

Second of all, through Him was then created all things IN heaven and ON earth, He did not create the realm of heaven or the void earth but the things IN heaven and ON the earth. He was used to fill the earth and took it from void to filled.

Gen 1:2
2 The earth was formless and void

Col 1:16-17
16 For by Him all things were created, both IN the heavens and ON earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities– all things have been created through Him and for Him.
NASU

The term “all things” is relative. I do not think that He was used in the creation of time, space and matter. The Father had done that within or before the first verse of Genesis.

Also the Son of God is not the spoken word of God that I refer to in John 1:1 but He is what the word declares Him to be the “Light”.

Maybe this will help and mind you it is just an illustration that just popped into my head:

Picture yourself in the audience of a play. At the beginning of the play the stage is already set with a background (this background happens to be the realm of heaven and a void earth.) Then the narrator says the first words of the play “let there be light” and then the curtain opens and on the stage we see the newly born Son of God who lit up the stage by his radiance. You see, He wasn't the word that the narrator spoke, He was the light that the narrator was referring to by the word He spoke.

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