Preexistence

Participant

Hi Irene,
I DO believe that Jesus was sent by the Father and I DO believe that He was the first one born of everything given life. I do not know why you would ask me that? I thought you knew???

God bless ya,
Kathi

May 21, 2008 at 8:50 pm#89524

Participant

To all……can anyone give me a good (REASON) that Jesus should have preexisted, would it have changed anything if He wasn't. Would you loose your Faith if He happened to come into existence at His berth by Mary, would it change anything in your mind if concerning Him, and if so what would that change be.

peace……………..gene

May 21, 2008 at 10:24 pm#89526

seek and you will find

Participant

Hi Kathi! Sorry I forgot, I am getting old.
Love Irene

May 21, 2008 at 11:18 pm#89527

Participant

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ May 21 2008,16:50)

peace……………..gene

Dear Gene,
How about this for a good reason:

Maybe the Father enjoys His Son and liked having Him around and sharing the creation of the world with Him. Maybe He couldn't wait to be a Dad of someone like Himself. Maybe He couldn't wait to show Him how to hang the moon etc.. I'm sure that He would have been a great Son too back then as He is even today.

I've had four great sons and wouldn't of wanted to wait thousands of years to have them. Okay maybe thousands of years is a bit of an exaggeration for a human, but do you get my point. Maybe He was there for the Father's sake afterall we know how much He loves His boy.

So, I think that is a good reason even if that were the only one.

Blessings!

May 22, 2008 at 1:43 am#89528

Participant

lighting up……. Gen 6:2,.it says, the Son's of God saw the daughter of men that they were fair;

Job 38:7 ….> when the morning stars sang together, and ALL the SON'S of GOD shouted for Joy.

These verse show their many son's of God.

lightenup….. By saying (Maybe) this or that reason does not answer the question ,scripture no where says Jesus was the only son of God in the heavens or earth for that matter, Jesus was the First (BEGOTTEN) Son, The question of when and How He was the only begotten of God at (that) time is whats important. I contend Jesus was Begotten of God After His berth on earth when He received God's Spirit in Him, when the voice from Heaven said (THIS DAY) I have begotten you, not some preexistent time. It was repeated four times in scripture originally, but trinitarian translator change it to say This is my son in whom i am well pleased, in two places.

peace to you and yours……………..gene

May 22, 2008 at 5:03 am#89530

Participant

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ May 21 2008,21:43)

lighting up……. Gen 6:2,.it says, the Son's of God saw the daughter of men that they were fair;

Job 38:7 ….> when the morning stars sang together, and ALL the SON'S of GOD shouted for Joy.

These verse show their many son's of God.

peace to you and yours……………..gene

Hi Gene,
My Username is Lightenup not lighting up but you can call me LU for short.

In Gen 6:2 and Job 38:7 refers to the angels being the son's of God. They were created, not begotten of God, but Christ was begotten and the only one begotten.

You say:

“scripture no where says Jesus was the only son of God in the heavens or earth for that matter, Jesus was the First (BEGOTTEN) Son…”

Here are scriptures that speak of Jesus as being the only begotten son:

John 3:16

16 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
NASU

John 3:18-19
18 ” He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
NASU

1 John 4:9-10
9 By this the love of God was manifested in us, that God has sent His only begotten Son into the world so that we might live through Him.
NASU

The Greek word for “only begotten”:
monogenh/v
Definition:
single of its kind, only
used of only sons or daughters (viewed in relation to their parents)
used of Christ, denotes the only begotten son of God

When was He begotten?? I asked that before and it changed my life. I contend that He was begotten on day one of creation. He was and is that “light” of day one in Genesis. That was His beginning. I realized that after seeking God's answer to the question, “what does it mean to be the firstborn of all creation?” This is how I understand this anyway.

Have a good night Gene.

May 22, 2008 at 4:51 pm#89542

Participant

lightenup…….Yes you contend that He was (Begotten) at the time of creation, But In four Places it says (THIS DAY) i have (BEGOTTEN YOU) trinitarians and others never seam to see that. So If thats there and it is then someone is neglecting it or acting as if it doesn't say that, But it Does say it. We have to quite trying to make scripture fit the false teachings of the Trinity.

peace to you and yours………..gene

May 22, 2008 at 5:52 pm#89544

Participant

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ May 22 2008,12:51)

peace to you and yours………..gene

Hi Gene,
If you wouldn't mind, please direct my to those four places that speaks of “this day” that you are referring to. I think I know of one but I want to know exactly what you are thinking of.

Thanks

May 22, 2008 at 11:00 pm#89549

Participant

lightenup…..Here are 6 places two of which have been changed by translators.

Psa 2:7 > I {notice the tense} Will {future tense} decclare the decree; the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; THIS DAY have I begotten thee.

interesting the LORD (WILL); question when did He declare It? When Jesus was baptised and the voice came out of Heaven and said it.

My Greek translation has in the margin concerning Luke 3.22 this, Other ancient authorities read, (you are my son, (today) I have begotten you. interesting how did this text get changed and for what reason It's obvious this was done by trinitarian translators to hid the Fact Jesus was inducted in the Family of God as A Son that Day, This truth would kill their preexisting theory and cause People to think Jesus was more like us and Not a deity so they simple altered the text.

You can find it also in..> Acts 13:33, Heb 1:5, Heb 5:5

Just ask your self when did God Declare what He Said He (would declare), and it becomes obvious It was when Jesus was baptized and the spirit came into Him and the voice from God said this is My Son, this day I (LORD) have begotten YOU.

peace to you and yours……..gene

May 23, 2008 at 8:42 pm#89576

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 20 2008,16:14)

Hi 94,
A body was prepared
for him.

Hebrews 10:5
Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:

Hi Nick:

The “Him” is the Word of God. The body is the Holy Temple of God.

May 23, 2008 at 9:07 pm#89577

Participant

Quote (Lightenup @ May 20 2008,16:42)

Hi 94,
Here are two versions of the same verse in 1 John 1:18:

18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.
KJV

18 We know that no one who is born of God sins; but He who was born of God keeps him, and the evil one does not touch him.
NASU

First of all lets look at the second phrase in both versions,

KJ: but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself,
NASB: but He who was born of God keeps him.

which one is accurate to the greek? Answer: The verb “gennhqeiv” is written in the aorist tense which is a past tense in Greek. So, “was born” is the correct translation. The NKJV attempts to correct this but still misses the meaning, imo.

Allow me to paraphrase to help portray my understanding:
18 We know that no one who is born of God sins (speaking of the born again believer still alive on earth); but He (the Son of God-Jesus) who was born of God keeps him (the born again believer), and the evil one does not touch him.
NASU

The original author makes a distinction between the two who are born of God. One “is” born of God and the next “was” born of God. It is interesting that the NASB capitalizes the He in the second phrase.

It is the Lord Jesus that protects us from the evil one. We can know that by reading this passage:

2 Thess 3:1-4

Finally, brethren, pray for us that the word of the Lord will spread rapidly and be glorified, just as it did also with you; 2 and that we will be rescued from perverse and evil men; for not all have faith. 3 But the Lord is faithful, and He will strengthen and protect you from the evil one.
NASU

I hope that I cleared that up for you.

Blessings!

Hi Lightenup:

First, I believe that you meant 1 John 5:18 rather than 1:18.

These verses as you state have to do with being born again. The way that works is that first we are born of the flesh and then we die unto sin and are born again from the dead or spiritual separation from God.

Jesus was born of the flesh when he was conceived of the Holy Ghost and born of the virgin Mary. He died unto sin and was born again from the dead.

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Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all [things] he might have the preeminence.

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Rom 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;
Rom 1:4 And declared [to be] the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:

May 23, 2008 at 9:20 pm#89578

Participant

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ May 22 2008,19:00)

lightenup…..Here are 6 places two of which have been changed by translators.

Psa 2:7 > I {notice the tense} Will {future tense} decclare the decree; the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; THIS DAY have I begotten thee.

interesting the LORD (WILL); question when did He declare It? When Jesus was baptised and the voice came out of Heaven and said it.

You can find it also in..> Acts 13:33, Heb 1:5, Heb 5:5

peace to you and yours……..gene

Hey Gene,

Thank you for those verses. You have a good question. Let me see if I can give it a go. I would like to thank WJ for the link to the NET Bible maybe it can help us with these verses.

Psalm 2:6-7

This was spoken about King David.

2:6 “I myself 20 have installed 21 my king
on Zion, my holy hill.”
2:7 The king says,22 “I will announce the Lord’s decree. He said to me:23
‘You are my son!24 This very day I have become your father!
This is what the notes in the NET Bible say:
24sn ‘You are my son!’ The Davidic king was viewed as God’s “son” (see 2 Sam 7:14; Ps 89:26-27). The idiom reflects ancient Near Eastern adoption language associated with covenants of grant, by which a lord would reward a faithful subject by elevating him to special status, referred to as “sonship.” Like a son, the faithful subject received an “inheritance,” viewed as an unconditional, eternal gift. Such gifts usually took the form of land and/or an enduring dynasty. See M. Weinfeld, “The Covenant of Grant in the Old Testament and in the Ancient Near East,” JAOS 90 (1970): 184-203, for general discussion and some striking extra-biblical parallels.

Luke 3:21-22

3:21 Now when60 all the people were baptized, Jesus also was baptized. And while he was praying,61 the heavens62 opened, 3:22 and the Holy Spirit descended on him in bodily form like a dove.63 And a voice came from heaven, “You are my one dear Son;64 in you I take great delight.”65
The NET Bible explains it like this:
65tc Instead of “You are my one dear Son; in you I take great delight,” one Greek ms and several Latin mss and church fathers (D it Ju [Cl] Meth Hil Aug) quote Ps 2:7 outright with “You are my Son; today I have fathered you.” But the weight of the ms testimony is against this reading.
tn Or “with you I am well pleased.”
sn The allusions in the remarks of the text recall Ps 2:7a; Isa 42:1 and either Isa 41:8 or, less likely, Gen 22:12,16. God is marking out Jesus as his chosen one (the meaning of “[in you I take] great delight”), but it may well be that this was a private experience that only Jesus and John saw and heard (cf. John 1:32-33).

Acts 13:32-33

13:32 And we proclaim to you the good news about the promise to our ancestors,124 13:33 that this promise 125 God has fulfilled to us, their children, by raising 126 Jesus, as also it is written in the second psalm, ‘You are my Son;127 today I have fathered you.’128

The NET Bible explanation:
127sn You are my Son. The key to how the quotation is used is the naming of Jesus as “Son” to the Father. The language is that of kingship, as Ps 2 indicates. Here is the promise about what the ultimate Davidic heir would be.

The above passage seems to be referring to Jesus’ at His resurrection with a regenerated life and His new relationship to His Father as the victorious King.

Hebrews 1:5

1:5 For to which of the angels did God12 ever say, “You are my son! Today I have fathered you”?13 And in another place14 he says,15 “I will be his father and he will be my son.”16 1:6 But when he again brings17 his firstborn into the world, he says, “Let all the angels of God worship him!”
13tn Grk “I have begotten you.”
sn A quotation from Ps 2:7.
14tn Grk “And again,” quoting another OT passage.
15tn The words “he says” are not in the Greek text but are supplied to make a complete English sentence. In the Greek text this is a continuation of the previous sentence, but English does not normally employ such long and complex sentences.
16tn Grk “I will be a father to him and he will be a son to me.”
sn A quotation from 2 Sam 7:14 (cf. 1 Chr 17:13).
17tn Or “And again when he brings.” The translation adopted in the text looks forward to Christ’s second coming to earth. Some take “again” to introduce the quotation (as in 1:5) and understand this as Christ’s first coming, but this view does not fit well with Heb 2:7. Others understand it as his exaltation/ascension to heaven, but this takes the phrase “into the world” in an unlikely way.
18sn A quotation combining themes from Deut 32:43 and Ps 97:7.

Hebrews 5:5

5:5 So also Christ did not glorify himself in becoming high priest, but the one who glorified him was God,7 who said to him, “You are my Son! Today I have fathered you,”8 5:6 as also in another place God9 says, “You are a priest forever in the order of Melchizedek.”

Again, this is referring to Jesus’ regenerated life received at his resurrection, imo.

So after all those verses, I suggest that as in my understanding of Col 1:15-18, there are two times that the Son of God was born, the firstborn over all creation which takes place before all things in heaven and on earth were created (again, I think it refers to Him being the light of day one). The second time the Son of God was born, the firstborn from among the dead, was actually a regeneration of life which was given Him at the resurrection. Thus, there were two times He could be referred to as having been begotten.
God Bless,
LU

[/I][I]

May 23, 2008 at 9:38 pm#89579

https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….john+11

Participant

Quote (Lightenup @ May 20 2008,17:52)

Quote (942767 @ May 19 2008,17:04)

Quote (Lightenup @ May 19 2008,15:33)

Quote (942767 @ May 18 2008,20:52)

Quote (Lightenup @ May 19 2008,10:36)

Quote (942767 @ May 18 2008,16:42)

Quote (Lightenup @ May 19 2008,08:28)

Quote (942767 @ May 18 2008,16:04)

Hi Mrs:

The KJ version translates Colossians 1:15 as follows:

Quote

Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

Which I believe is the correct translation. Jesus is the only begotten Son of God, and therefore, he is the first of humanity to be born of God. He is also the first of all of humanity to be born again from the dead.

My understanding is that God created everything that he created with Jesus in mind. He created all that he created for him. Jesus is God's heir, and Jesus is good enough to share with a us a portion of his inheritance.

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Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

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Gen 1:1 ¶ In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

Quote

Gen 1:27 So God created man in his [own] image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

Quote

Hbr 1:1 ¶ God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
Hbr 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by [his] Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

God Bless

Quote

The KJ version translates Colossians 1:15 as follows:

Quote

Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

Hi 94,
Excuse me for kinda jumping in here but I am trying to wrap my mind around your above quote. You say that Jesus is the first of humanity to be born of God. When do you see that having happened…as He was born from Mary or when?

I'm trying to understand where you are coming from.

Blessings!

Hi Lightenup:

No problem with you jumping in at anytime. Firstborn of God when he was conceived of the Holy Ghost and born of the virgin Mary, yes.

God Bless

Hi 94,
Thank you for your answer.
Now regarding John 1:1
John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
NASU

Am I correct in thinking that you believe that John 1:1 is referring to Jesus in the beginning with God merely as a wonderful plan in the thoughts of God. A plan that will come as a human that passes on God's word to others after He is born of Mary and was not active in any way before that?

Still, trying to understand you, I hope you don't mind.

Blessings

Hi Lightenup:

You can read what I believe about John 1:1 here:

God Bless

Thank you so much 94 for your link. I read through your thoughts and that helped me understand you a bit better. So, you believe Jesus, in the beginning, before the foundation of the world, was merely an idea and not something or somebody that could actually do anything. In fact, an idea doesn't act on its own but the person with the idea (who happens to be God in this case) must be the one doing the action to actually begin carrying out His own idea. Would you agree to this?

Please bear with me 94, this really is going someplace

Hi Lightenup:

Yes, I do agree with this.

Hi 94,
Thank you for your patience. Ok, so you agree that an idea does not act on its own but the one with the idea must be the one doing the action.

In the case of John 1:1-2:
John 1:1-2
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God.
NASU

Every time that you see the word “was” in the above verses, it is written in the Greek in an active voice which means the subject does the action and not as in the passive voice where the subject receives the action. So, I do not believe these verses are talking about an idea or a plan. As you agree, an idea can not do the acting. By the way, the subject in each of these phrases is the “word”.

Well, I have spent m
ore time on this today than I can continue doing. G'nite 94, blessings to you!

Do you understand how to determine the active voice and passive voice in Greek verbs? Studylight.org is an online source that can tell you if the verb is active or passive and many other things about the Greek or Hebrew for that matter.
If you want me to take you through the steps to find that info on that site, let me know and I will be happy to show you.

Hi Lightenup:

You are going to extreme measures to try to prove pre-existence. I don't see the action in this verse that would say that Jesus pre-existed.

I'll just say that if God wanted to tell us that Jesus pre-existed before his birth from virgin Mary, He would have told us.

There is not scripture that states that He pre-existed. There is one that says that he was fore-ordained.

Anyway, I believe that Jesus exists now and I have the Spirit of God dwelling within who testifies to that fact. I am happy with that.

God Bless

May 23, 2008 at 9:50 pm#89580

Participant

Quote (942767 @ May 23 2008,17:07)

Quote (Lightenup @ May 20 2008,16:42)

Hi 94,
Here are two versions of the same verse in 1 John 1:18:

18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.
KJV

18 We know that no one who is born of God sins; but He who was born of God keeps him, and the evil one does not touch him.
NASU

First of all lets look at the second phrase in both versions,

KJ: but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself,
NASB: but He who was born of God keeps him.

It is the Lord Jesus that protects us from the evil one. We can know that by reading this passage:

2 Thess 3:1-4

I hope that I cleared that up for you.

Blessings!

Hi Lightenup:

First, I believe that you meant 1 John 5:18 rather than 1:18.

Jesus was born of the flesh when he was conceived of the Holy Ghost and born of the virgin Mary. He died unto sin and was born again from the dead.

Quote

Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all [things] he might have the preeminence.

Quote

Hi 94,
Yes I did mean 1 John 5:18, sorry about that, I am glad that you caught that.

We disagree. Obviously the different glasses we look through give us different understanding. We also probably think differently regarding Jesus being the “firstborn among the dead”. I think that His being born from the “dead” is upon His resurrection after His death on the cross, His actual physical death. I do not believe He was ever seperated from the Father because of sin and had no need of dying to His sin, like us. So, we are probably at an impass.

God bless you 94,
LU

May 23, 2008 at 9:55 pm#89582

gsilva72

Participant

How about John 1:2 He was in the begining with God.

May 23, 2008 at 11:24 pm#89592

Participant

Quote (Lightenup @ May 24 2008,09:50)

Quote (942767 @ May 23 2008,17:07)

Quote (Lightenup @ May 20 2008,16:42)

Hi 94,
Here are two versions of the same verse in 1 John 1:18:

18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.
KJV

18 We know that no one who is born of God sins; but He who was born of God keeps him, and the evil one does not touch him.
NASU

First of all lets look at the second phrase in both versions,

KJ: but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself,
NASB: but He who was born of God keeps him.

It is the Lord Jesus that protects us from the evil one. We can know that by reading this passage:

2 Thess 3:1-4

I hope that I cleared that up for you.

Blessings!

Hi Lightenup:

First, I believe that you meant 1 John 5:18 rather than 1:18.

Jesus was born of the flesh when he was conceived of the Holy Ghost and born of the virgin Mary. He died unto sin and was born again from the dead.

Quote

Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all [things] he might have the preeminence.

Quote

Hi 94,
Yes I did mean 1 John 5:18, sorry about that, I am glad that you caught that.

God bless you 94,
LU

Hi Lightenup:

Of course, Jesus did not sin. He was separated from God because of our sins.

Quote

Rom 6:9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
Rom 6:10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
Rom 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

May 23, 2008 at 11:40 pm#89593

Participant

Quote (gsilva72 @ May 24 2008,09:55)

How about John 1:2 He was in the begining with God.

Hi gsilva72:

My understanding of these scriptures is that Jesus was with God in that he was fore-odained. God knew that at a specific time in the future he would conceive a Son.

May 23, 2008 at 11:59 pm#89597

Is 1:18

Participant

Hi SDN,
Sorry but the grammar in the John 1:1 verse does not allow for such an interpretation IMO. I'm certain that John would not have used the word “pros” (translated “with” in John 1:1c) in the passage if his intention was to convey forknowledge or foreordination of Yeshua's existence, before it occured. If so, it was a terribly-inappropriate word choice on his part. Hopefully this quote will better explain what I mean:

and the Word was with God
In the second clause John’s language was typically precise and nuanced, he deliberately invoked a distinction in the two persons of “ton theon” and “ho Logos” and at the same time presented a new dynamic, they were coexisting in relationship. The significant word in the clause is “pros”, when used with the accusative it is widely regarded as being Greek shorthand for proswpon prov proswpon, which means face to face (in relationship). Here is how Robertson exegetes this clause:

With God (prov ton qeon). Though existing eternally with God the Logos was in perfect fellowship with God. Prov with the accusative presents a plane of equality and intimacy, face to face with each other. In 1 John 2:1 we have a like use of prov: “We have a Paraclete with the Father” (paraklhton exomen prov ton patera). See proswpon prov proswpon (face to face, 1 Corinthians 13:12), a triple use of prov. There is a papyrus example of prov in this sense to gnwston thv prov allhlouv sunhqeiav, “the knowledge of our intimacy with one another” (M.&M., Vocabulary) which answers the claim of Rendel Harris, Origin of Prologue, p. 8) that the use of prov here and in Mark 6:3 is a mere Aramaism. It is not a classic idiom, but this is Koin‚, not old Attic. In John 17:5 John has para soi the more common idiom.
(source)

So it’s in this clause that we have the John’s fullest expression of the type of relationship two subjects shared “in the beginning”. The Logos always existed in intimate fellowship with “ton theon” (The Father).

From: https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….75;st=0

May 24, 2008 at 1:04 am#89599