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Nick…….No were does it say the submission of the apostles or Jesus' will ,was what saved them. Or that these submissions originated from themselves. If that were the case them it wouldn't take God to cause us to come to Christ would it, we would simply come to Him as a result (as you say) of our own Free Will, and the Jesus didn't choose the deciples they chose themselves by their own Free Will's. You and Mr. Steve are not concedering the effectual working of God”s Spirit in a person. Ask yopurselves why you aren't willing to see that, Ill answer the question for you, It's because you both believe that you salvation was brought about by Your (Free Will Choices) and in a sense are both taking God's place
in your own lives.Why did Jesus say that only (ONE) will, will be done in the Kingdom of God. The only way that can happen is if all other WILL's are put to death. If God's Spirit is in you His will is in you and you or I are not at liberty to negoicate it as Free Will would imply. There is only one Will thats done in Heaven and will be done on earth. There is only one will thats God's,” For He (God) does all things after the Council of His OWN WILL”; another words He doesent ask you or me or Jesus or the apostles what their Free wills say to do. Thats what it means to be A SOVERIGN GOD. God dosen't ask us, His creation what we want to do or if we will or not do it, He COMMANDS US TO DO IT, why because He is SOVERIGN .
There is a right way and a wrong way, and men like to think they have the right to chose what it is, as if some how they are a God that can direct their own destiny theough their own FREE WILL CHOICES, History proves the opposite tho, all of mans (FREE WILL CHOICES) have proven wrong, and what does Scripture say ” Its (NOT WITH IN A MAN TO DIRECT HIS PATHS) and again (there is a way that seemth right unto a man but the end is SIN AND DEATH. God is the ONLY RIGHTEOUS BEING THERE IS , Did not Jesus say why calleth me Good, there is only one thats Good and thats GOD.
MAN want's not to image God by obedience but they want to act like they are a GOD through their So Called FREE WILL's.
From these so called (FREE WILL CHOICES) comes PRIDE. God resistes the proud and gives Grace to the Humble, those who put their WILL's to DEATH, and Follow God's Will, brought about by the influence and power of (HIS) SPIRIT. ” For HE (GOD) WORKS in us to (WILL) and (DO) His good pleasure”> GOD THE FATHER IS ABSOLUTE THE ONLY TRUE SOVERIGN THERE IS>.IMO……..gene
Hi Gene,
Jesus taught his followers to pray
Matthew 6:10
Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.and he said
Matthew 7:21
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.and
Matthew 12:50
For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.We follow him who prayed
Matthew 26:39
And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.Hi Gene,
Of course there no such thing as absolute free will.
We are offered choices but God ultimately ordains man's steps.[Pr20.24]Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 29 2008,12:08) Hi Gene,
Jesus taught his followers to pray
Matthew 6:10
Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.and he said
Matthew 7:21
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.and
Matthew 12:50
For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.We follow him who prayed
Matthew 26:39
And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.
nick…….None of these scriptures you posted show it was (FREE WILL) that caused these choices, infact without God's spirit none of these choices would ever Happen. Again i maintain God Himself causes all these choices and it is not a matter of anyones (FREE WILL) that brings these things about. If other (WILL'S) can effect a savings work then GOD would not be SOVERIGN would He.IMO……..gene
Hi Gene,
All is grace but we are not mannikins and do have choice.
Rom9
6Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:7Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
9For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sarah shall have a son.
10And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
11(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
12It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
14What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
17For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
25As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
26And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.
27Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:
28For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.
29And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha.
30What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
31But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
32Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
33As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
Quote Nick…….No were does it say the submission of the apostles or Jesus' will ,was what saved them. Or that these submissions originated from themselves. If that were the case them it wouldn't take God to cause us to come to Christ would it, we would simply come to Him as a result (as you say) of our own Free Will, and the Jesus didn't choose the deciples they chose themselves by their own Free Will's. You and Mr. Steve are not concedering the effectual working of God”s Spirit in a person. Ask yopurselves why you aren't willing to see that, Ill answer the question for you, It's because you both believe that you salvation was brought about by Your (Free Will Choices) and in a sense are both taking God's place
in your own lives.Why did Jesus say that only (ONE) will, will be done in the Kingdom of God. The only way that can happen is if all other WILL's are put to death. If God's Spirit is in you His will is in you and you or I are not at liberty to negoicate it as Free Will would imply. There is only one Will thats done in Heaven and will be done on earth. There is only one will thats God's,” For He (God) does all things after the Council of His OWN WILL”; another words He doesent ask you or me or Jesus or the apostles what their Free wills say to do. Thats what it means to be A SOVERIGN GOD. God dosen't ask us, His creation what we want to do or if we will or not do it, He COMMANDS US TO DO IT, why because He is SOVERIGN .
There is a right way and a wrong way, and men like to think they have the right to chose what it is, as if some how they are a God that can direct their own destiny theough their own FREE WILL CHOICES, History proves the opposite tho, all of mans (FREE WILL CHOICES) have proven wrong, and what does Scripture say ” Its (NOT WITH IN A MAN TO DIRECT HIS PATHS) and again (there is a way that seemth right unto a man but the end is SIN AND DEATH. God is the ONLY RIGHTEOUS BEING THERE IS , Did not Jesus say why calleth me Good, there is only one thats Good and thats GOD.
MAN want's not to image God by obedience but they want to act like they are a GOD through their So Called FREE WILL's.
From these so called (FREE WILL CHOICES) comes PRIDE. God resistes the proud and gives Grace to the Humble, those who put their WILL's to DEATH, and Follow God's Will, brought about by the influence and power of (HIS) SPIRIT. ” For HE (GOD) WORKS in us to (WILL) and (DO) His good pleasure”> GOD THE FATHER IS ABSOLUTE THE ONLY TRUE SOVERIGN THERE IS>.Gene;
Jesus taught us to pray to be worthy to escape the tribulation. He gave about twelve parables that illustrate what will happen when he comes as a thief in the night. One is taken another is left. The explanations that Jesus gave for each gives us notice that we have a responsibility to obey God and to be faithful servants. We give God credit for his grace in allowing us to have the choice to obey. Do you believe the servants who said in their hearts my lord delays his coming, said that because God made them think that and then made them beat the other servants and all the other subsequent choices. If they had no part in their disobedience why does Jesus call them wicked and slothful servants.
Jesus does not support your case of extreme grace. It's no where in the gospels. God draws, we must respond, he doesn't respond through us.
I would venture to guess that you also believe in eternal security.
Take care
Steven
Quote (Mr. Steve @ Mar. 01 2008,10:51) Jesus taught us to pray to be worthy to escape the tribulation. He gave about twelve parables that illustrate what will happen when he comes as a thief in the night. One is taken another is left. The explanations that Jesus gave for each gives us notice that we have a responsibility to obey God and to be faithful servants. We give God credit for his grace in allowing us to have the choice to obey. Do you believe the servants who said in their hearts my lord delays his coming, said that because God made them think that and then made them beat the other servants and all the other subsequent choices. If they had no part in their disobedience why does Jesus call them wicked and slothful servants. Jesus does not support your case of extreme grace. It's no where in the gospels. God draws, we must respond, he doesn't respond through us.
I would venture to guess that you also believe in eternal security.
Take care
Steven
Mr. Steve…. Jesus did not say to pray inorder to be found worthy to escape. He said pray (always), that you might be found worthy to escape these things. Again your are making it say to pray (FOR) escape of these things , but Jesus was saying that those who pray always might be found worthy. He was not telling us to pray for escaping these things as you are making it out to say.Again you are making it a matter of you and your work that will deliever you.All flesh has a responsibility to obey God and to be faithfull sevants and obey Him. Oh So (YOU ) give God CREDIT, my thats mighty gracious of you. God doesen't need your or my credit for anything, you see it not dependent on you or me rather God get credit from Us , who are you to think God needs your credit for anything He Does. Again Mr. Steve your not seening where you have positioned yourself in the process of salvation.
As to your statements about the servants,; If that servant say's in His (Heart) my lord delays his comming and begins to smite His fellow servants the lord of that sevant will come in an hour he doesen't know. Where does it say that so called servant was ever converted or even had God Spirit in Him. There will be many who think they are servants of God but really are not they lack the fruits OF the Spirit in them.
You say……> Jesus does not suport your case of extreme grace. ……> I believe Jesus doesenT suport your case of self salvation by your own (FREE WILL) choices and lack of Grace.
You say….> God draw, we must respond, He doesn't respond through US……> i would agree with you, Your God only responds through Your (FREE WILL). I gess that makes you in control of your destiny and what ever your (FREE WILL) WILL's is what will happen. MY it seem you have become a God Yourself. You are in control of your destiny not The only Creator and Soverign God.
And You are right I Certainly do believe in eternal Salvation and Security. Becaues I believe MY GOD can cause that to happpen Just like He did for Jesus Christ.
IMO…………..gene
Gen and martian! Why is it so hard to understand that Jesus preexisted before He became a man born of Mary. And i can prove to you that He did. let me start with
John 1:1 In the beginning there was the Word and the Word was God and the Word was with God, He was in the beginning with God.
Then we have to understand that God is only a title. The Father has a name and so does the Word after He became flesh.
Before then He was the Spokesperson of the Father. It says that nobody has seen or heard the Father.
It was always Jesus speaking in the Old Testament or an Angel.
Now lets go to Jesus preexisting.
Col. 1:15″ Who is the image of the invisible God, the FIRSTBORN OF ALL CREATURE.VERSE 16 For by Him all things created that are in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible…. and all things were created through Him and for Him.
verse 17 And He is before all things and in Him all things consist.
Rev. 3:14..These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God.
Gen. 1:26 ” And God said, let us make man in our image, after our likeness…
He also was the firstborn of the dead inverse 16 And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead., that in all He may have preeminence.
Preeminence means first in all.
There is one more scripture that I want to give you and that is.John 17: 5 ” And now Father glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.
Also it says that God send His Son into the world, were did He send Him from?
To me all these Scriptures tell me that Jesus was there in the very beginning, before anything was created, how else could He have created all after that. Clear to me, how about you are you going to understand or are you to proud to admit that you were wrong before.
Peace and Love Mrs.
Hi Mrs,
You say
“Before then He was the Spokesperson of the Father. It says that nobody has seen or heard the Father.
It was always Jesus speaking in the Old Testament or an Angel.”
But Heb 1 says
1God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,2Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 28 2008,14:24) Dear 94,
Well, we really see things differently for sure! The verse you quoted:
Rom 8:29-30
29 For those whom He foreknew…..(The “those” are future believers)
He also predestined…(God the Father chose ahead of time)
to become conformed to the image of His Son,…(to become like Christ)
so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; (so that Christ would be the firstborn of God with many adopted brothers and sisters.) NASU
94, Do you understand that verse the way I have paraphrased it in parenthesis? Or how do you understand that verse? Maybe if we take one verse at a time we can figure this out. Wouldn't that be nice.
Blessings, K
Hi Lightenup:Yes, I understand what you quoted in parenthesis the way that you do. The following is from the NLT:
Quote Romans 8
8:29
For God knew his people in advance, and he chose them to become like his Son, so that his Son would be the firstborn, with many brothers and sisters.
8:30
And having chosen them, he called them to come to him. And he gave them right standing with himself, and he promised them his glory.Quote Col 1:12 YLT Giving thanks to the Father who did make us meet for the participation of the inheritance of the saints in the light, 13 who did rescue us out of the authority of the darkness, and did translate [us] into the reign of the Son of His love, 14 in whom we have the redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of the sins, 15 who is the image of the invisible God, first-born of all creation, 16 because in him were the all things created, those in the heavens, and those upon the earth, those visible, and those invisible, whether thrones, whether lordships, whether principalities, whether authorities; all things through him, and for him, have been created, 17 and himself is before all, and the all things in him have consisted. 18 And himself is the head of the body — the assembly — who is a beginning, a first-born out of the dead, that he might become in all [things] — himself — first, 19 because in him it did please all the fulness to tabernacle, 20 and through him to reconcile the all things to himself — having made peace through the blood of his cross — through him, whether the things upon the earth, whether the things in the heavens. “Firstborn”, I understand to mean “firstborn from the dead”.
Jesus was perfected through perfect obedience to the Word of God in this world, and he died, and was born again from the dead having been decalared not guilty through the spirit of holiness, and by faith in God's testimony regarding His Son, we have been reconciled to God having come to God through him with a repentant heart, and having been born again from the dead (we were dead in our trespasses prior to being born again) God has become the Father of our Spirit dwelling in us as our helper, and as God teaches through the Word that He has spoken through Jesus and the Word that Jesus obeyed, we are being conformed to image of His Son.Quote Hebrews 5:7 KJV
Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and * * supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;
5:8
Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
5:9
And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;Quote 1 Co 15:45 KJV
And so it is written, The first man Adam was made * a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.Quote Romans 1:3 KJV
Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;
1:4
And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:God Bless
Hi 94,
You say
“”Firstborn”, I understand to mean “firstborn from the dead”.
Jesus was perfected through perfect obedience to the Word of God in this world, and he died, and was born again from the dead having been decalared not guilty through the spirit of holiness,”That is one of the meanings of firstborn.
Born again from the dead? We follow him and are already reborn while we live.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 28 2008,14:25) Hi 94,
Did God create beings with spirits but no soul or body to be with him in heaven?
Are there any other such spirit only beings in scripture??
Hi Nick:Since I don't know how your question relates to my discussion with lightenup, I will just as you to tell me what you believe relative to your questions.
God Bless
HGi 94
You said
“The spirit of the Son was with God in the beginning and He knew that He would conceive a Son who would obey Him without sin in the beginning.”
What does this mean? Where does it say the spirit of Christ was with God in the beginning?Hi Gene:
No, we did not go looking for the Lord. He came looking for us sending the preacher with the gospel message. To the preacher he said:
Quote 28:18
And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
28:19
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
28:20
Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway *, even unto the end of the world. Amen.We are saved by faith having believed the gospel:
Quote Romans 10:15
And how shall they preach, except they be sent ? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
10:16
But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
10:17
So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.However, when you believed, did you not have a choice whether or not you wanted to be reconciled to God through the gospel? And if you are born again, do you not have a choice whether or not to obey God's Word? Do you obey because you love him or because you are forced to do so?
God Bless
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 02 2008,06:53) Hi 94,
You say
“”Firstborn”, I understand to mean “firstborn from the dead”.
Jesus was perfected through perfect obedience to the Word of God in this world, and he died, and was born again from the dead having been decalared not guilty through the spirit of holiness,”That is one of the meanings of firstborn.
Born again from the dead? We follow him and are already reborn while we live.
Hi Nick:My understanding of this is based on the following verse:
Quote Col 1:17 and himself is before all, and the all things in him have consisted. 18 And himself is the head of the body — the assembly — who is a beginning, A FIRST-BORN OUT OF THE DEAD, that he might become in all [things] — himself — first, 19 because in him it did please all the fulness to tabernacle Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 02 2008,05:12) Hi Mrs,
You say
“Before then He was the Spokesperson of the Father. It says that nobody has seen or heard the Father.
It was always Jesus speaking in the Old Testament or an Angel.”
But Heb 1 says
1God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,2Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
Nick Are you denying that Jesus was not the Word? Yes, He also spoke by the prohets. But you cant deny what I said.Peace and Love Mrs.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 02 2008,07:05) HGi 94
You said
“The spirit of the Son was with God in the beginning and He knew that He would conceive a Son who would obey Him without sin in the beginning.”
What does this mean? Where does it say the spirit of Christ was with God in the beginning?
Hi Nick:The spirit of the Son is the Word of God that was taught and obeyed by Jesus. This Word was with God in the beginning. In other words, God forknew that He would conceive a Son, and He knew what He would teach him.
Quote John 1
1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.Quote John 6:62
What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?
6:63
It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh * * profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.God Bless
Hi 94,
Did God form and separate the spirit of the son from Himself but that spirit was not a being?
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