Preexistence

[GeneBalthrop]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 25 2008,20:33)

Hi T8, He had to choose submission every step of the way. But the EXPRESS IMAGE of Heb 1 sounds rather like he was given by God, God's character. We too can show the fruit of the character of God's loving nature by submitting to the changing by the Spirit.

t8………Jesus became like god because God was in Him and was causing Jesus to walk in His ways and do His will. Jesus was (CREATED) unto good works, Just like all who have God's spirit are. It is a creation that makes us right and God is the only Creator. He was at work in Jesus reconciling the world to Him unto Himself. Jesus' choices were caused by God in Him. Didn't Jesus say it was the Father in Him doing the work. This who Idea of Free Will is a invention of man, their is only one Will thats to be done and will be done. Man wan't to think He is in control of His destiney, he doesen't want to image God, He want's to be a God. It's one thing to Follow and it another to be in control, man likes to think He's in control of His own destiney by His Free Will, a term not found in the bible.

Its God's work, not mans that brings salvation to all.

IMHO………….gene

[NickHassan]

Hi 94,
Was it the striving for perfection that made Christ like to God?
No

Zechariah 4:6
Then he answered and spake unto me, saying, This is the word of the LORD unto Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit, saith the LORD of hosts.

[942767]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 26 2008,04:46)

Hi 94, Was it the striving for perfection that made Christ like to God? No Zechariah 4:6 Then he answered and spake unto me, saying, This is the word of the LORD unto Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit, saith the LORD of hosts.

Hi Nick:

It was obeying God's commandments even unto death on the cross that made him express image of God.  Yes, God was in Christ reconciling the world unto himself, through the commandments that have come to us through our Lord Jesus who not only taught but obeyed them without sin.

Quote

Hebrews 5:4 And no man taketh this honour unto himself, but he that is called of God, as was Aaron. 5 So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee. 6 As he saith also in another place, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec. 7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that F14 he feared; 8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; 9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

 Verse 8 states: “THOUGH HE WERE A SON, YET LEARNED OBEDIENCE BY THE THINGS THAT HE SUFFERED: AND BEING MADE PERFECT”.  He wasn't already perfect because the Spirit of God our Father dwelt within any more than we are perfect because the Holy Spirit dwells with us.  This scripture states THAT HE WAS MADE PERFECT.

God Bless

[NickHassan]

Hi 94
You say
“It was obeying God's commandments even unto death on the cross that made him express image of God.”

??
And quote
“Hebrews 5:4 And no man taketh this honour unto himself, but he that is called of God, as was Aaron. 5 So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee. 6 As he saith also in another place, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec. 7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that F14 he feared; 8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; 9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

So he was indeed guided by his Father to perfectly obey the Law and having done so he was anointed by God at the Jordan to be full of God's Spirit and made the source of salvation to all who come to him.

[942767]

Hi Nick:

You say:

Quote

So he was indeed guided by his Father to perfectly obey the Law and having done so he was anointed by God at the Jordan to be full of God's Spirit and made the source of salvation to all who come to him.

While it is true that God was in Christ and was his guide, Jesus had to put into practice what God taught him.  The scripture states: THAT HE LEARNED OBEDIENCE THROUGH THE THINGS THAT HE SUFFERED.

God Bless

[942767]

Hi Nick:

I just read what you said a little more carefully:

Again, you say:

Quote

So he was indeed guided by his Father to perfectly obey the Law and having done so he was anointed by God at the Jordan to be full of God's Spirit and made the source of salvation to all who come to him.

He did obey the commandments of God without sin prior to receiving the baptism of the Holy Spirit, and so, Hebrews 5:8 states:

Quote

5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;

 This scripture indicates that the obedience that he learned by his suffering is speaking of the life that he lived after he received the baptism of the Holy Spirit. The scripture states that he obeyed without sin “even unto death on the cross”.

Quote

Phil 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: 8 And being found in fashion F7 as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

This speaks of his obedience after he was anointed as God's Christ.

God Bless

[NickHassan]

Hi 94,
Indeed the Spirit led him as the Spirit must lead us.
That leading is ever towards obedient submission to God.

[GeneBalthrop]

to all…….remember it say's….we are (CREATED) unto good works. and we know the only creator there is, is God the Father. True righteousness in not a choice, it is a creation.” I will take out of you the heart of stone and give you a Heart of Flesh (a soft heart), God is the only one who can do this.

peace to you all…………gene

[Lightenup]

Hi 94, Nick, T8 et al,
I'm extremely new to posting on message boards as of last week so take it easy on me with this skipping around from one board to the other expecting me to follow
Well, I am going to be extremely vulnerable here and tell you something that changed my life over 15 years ago regarding Jesus' pre-existence.

I grew up as a trinitarian and defended the doctrine when challenged. Then one day I was challenged with the verse Col 1:15-16

15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.
NASU

I asked God to show me what that term meant “firstborn of all creation.” I surrendered my trinitarian claims to whatever God would show me and it was like I started to read the Bible all new with a different perspective. Well, after about a month of searching scripture and looking for my answer I heard a voice speak in my left ear. Just before I heard that voice, I was reviewing with my son what happened on each day of creation because I was homeschooling him and the kindergarten curriculum was centered around the seven days of creation. I had just asked my son this question, “What happened on day one?” My son responded by saying “God said let there be light” and that is when the voice spoke to me and said “You are the light of the world”.

Now remember that I was meditating on what the “firstborn of all creation” meant for the past month and fervently, and excitedly reading scripture with a whole new perspective. When I asked my son that question I was totally focused on his schooling. I know that voice was not from me without a doubt. Anyway, when I heard the voice say that I immediately thought of Jesus being the Light of the World and that “Let there be light” was God's birthing of His Son by His word as the begotten God. So, I knew that I had to test that and I think about it everyday since. I believe that the firstborn of all creation refers to the light of day one as the begotten God, the Radiant Son of God.

Here are some verses about Jesus being the Light:
John 1:1-10
2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. 5 The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.
6 The Witness John
There came a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 He came as a witness, to testify about the Light, so that all might believe through him. 8 He was not the Light, but he came to testify about the Light.
9 There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man.
NASU

Rev 21:22-24
23 And the city has no need of the sun or of the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God has illumined it, and its lamp is the Lamb.
NASU

John 8:12

Then Jesus again spoke to them, saying, ” I am the Light of the world; he who follows Me will not walk in the darkness, but will have the Light of life.”
NASU

So, I remain amazed at the simplicity of all of this.

For God's glory, K

[Mr. Steve]

Quote

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 25 2008,20:33) Hi T8, He had to choose submission every step of the way. But the EXPRESS IMAGE of Heb 1 sounds rather like he was given by God, God's character. We too can show the fruit of the character of God's loving nature by submitting to the changing by the Spirit. t8………Jesus became like god because God was in Him and was causing Jesus to walk in His ways and do His will. Jesus was (CREATED) unto good works, Just like all who have God's spirit are. It is a creation that makes us right and God is the only Creator. He was at work in Jesus reconciling the world to Him unto Himself. Jesus' choices were caused by God in Him. Didn't Jesus say it was the Father in Him doing the work. This who Idea of Free Will is a invention of man, their is only one Will thats to be done and will be done. Man wan't to think He is in control of His destiney, he doesen't want to image God, He want's to be a God. It's one thing to Follow and it another to be in control, man likes to think He's in control of His own destiney by His Free Will, a term not found in the bible. Its God's work, not mans that brings salvation to all.

GB;

God does not force any of us to do his will. Paul said that we are laborers together with God. We do our part and God does his part. We plant and water but it is God that gives the increase. No one is trying to argue that we give the increase, only that we have to yield ourselves to do his will. That's the difference between mankind and animal life. We have a choice to choose life or death. The animals act instinctively without regard to conscience towards God.

Peter said to the lame man silver and gold have I none, but such as I have give I thee. In the name of Jesus rise up and walk. He ascribed the miracle to the power of Christ within him, not to himself. But he had to yield to the holy ghost in performing the miracle.

[942767]

Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 26 2008,18:22)

Hi 94, Nick, T8 et al, I'm extremely new to posting on message boards as of last week so take it easy on me with this skipping around from one board to the other expecting me to follow Well, I am going to be extremely vulnerable here and tell you something that changed my life over 15 years ago regarding Jesus' pre-existence. I grew up as a trinitarian and defended the doctrine when challenged.  Then one day I was challenged with the verse  Col 1:15-16 15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. NASU I asked God to show me what that term meant “firstborn of all creation.” I surrendered my trinitarian claims to whatever God would show me and it was like I started to read the Bible all new with a different perspective.  Well, after about a month of searching scripture and looking for my answer I heard a voice speak in my left ear. Just before I heard that voice, I was reviewing with my son what happened on each day of creation because I was homeschooling him and the kindergarten curriculum was centered around the seven days of creation. I had just asked my son this question, “What happened on day one?”  My son responded by saying “God said let there be light” and that is when the voice spoke to me and said “You are the light of the world”. Now remember that I was meditating on what the “firstborn of all creation” meant for the past month and fervently, and excitedly reading scripture with a whole new perspective.  When I asked my son that question I was totally focused on his schooling.  I know that voice was not from me without a doubt.  Anyway, when I heard the voice say that I immediately thought of Jesus being the Light of the World and that “Let there be light” was God's birthing of His Son by His word as the begotten God.  So, I knew that I had to test that and I think about it everyday since.  I believe that the firstborn of all creation refers to the light of day one as the begotten God, the Radiant Son of God. Here are some verses about Jesus being the Light: John 1:1-10 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. 5 The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it. 6 The Witness John There came a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 He came as a witness, to testify about the Light, so that all might believe through him. 8 He was not the Light, but he came to testify about the Light. 9 There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man. NASU Rev 21:22-24 23 And the city has no need of the sun or of the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God has illumined it, and its lamp is the Lamb. NASU John 8:12 Then Jesus again spoke to them, saying, ” I am the Light of the world; he who follows Me will not walk in the darkness, but will have the Light of life.” NASU So, I remain amazed at the simplicity of all of this. For God's glory, K

Hi Lightenup:

I appologize for jumping from one thread to another on you, since we discussing the topic “who Jesus is” and we got off on to the topic of whether or not he pre-existed prior to his being born of the virgin Mary, I thought it was appropriate to continue the discussion in this thread.

I appreciate your sharing your experience with us, but I still don't see how you interpret this to mean that Jesus pre-existed.

Quote

Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: 16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in F2 all things he might have the preeminence.

If you read verse 1:15 in the context of the scriptures that I have quoted above, you will understand that what is meant by the statement that “he is the first born of every creature”, you will see that this is talking about him being the first born again from the dead.  He is first one of God's creatures to be born again, and we who are his disciples have now also been born again from the dead.

While he was in the world, he indeed was the light of the world, and now we who are his disciples should be reflecting that same light.

Quote

Matt. 5:14 Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid. 15 Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, F9 but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house. 16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

There is not scripture that says that Jesus pre-existed, but there is one that says that he was foreordained, and that is what I believe relative to this issue.

God Bless

[942767]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 26 2008,16:03)

Hi 94, Indeed the Spirit led him as the Spirit must lead us. That leading is ever towards obedient submission to God.

Hi Nick:

I believe that I am in agreement with you.  Our Father by His Spirit dwelling within us leads unto all truths, but it is up to us to obey.  I believe that we are born again Christians, we will obey, but the Holy Spirit does not take away our right to choose.  God will not force anyone to do any thing.  Jesus said:

Quote

John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments. 16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

Quote

John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Quote

John 15:1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. 2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit. 3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. 4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. 5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. 6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. 7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you. 8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.

Quote

John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. 14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you. 15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

[Lightenup]

Hello 94,
Thank you for your good response.  Jesus's pre-existence is something I see in scriptures so clearly.  This discussion is good and can hopefully strengthen us in God's word.  Let's see if these three verses can help:
John 1:2
2 He was in the beginning with God.
(That is talking about Jesus as we see later in that chapter of John 1.)

1 Cor 8:6
6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.
NASU

Col 1:16-18
16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities– all things have been created through Him and for Him. 17 He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.
NASU

Note that the above verses place God's Son in the beginning, before all things in heaven and on earth were created and since creation happened a loooooong time before Jesus became a man, even thousands of years before, this is clearly showing pre-existence.

There are so many on these boards that seek truth and unity, God help us! K

[seek and you will find]

Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 27 2008,15:38)

Hello 94, Thank you for your good response.  Jesus's pre-existence is something I see in scriptures so clearly.  This discussion is good and can hopefully strengthen us in God's word.  Let's see if these three verses can help: John 1:2 2 He was in the beginning with God.   (That is talking about Jesus as we see later in that chapter of John 1.) 1 Cor 8:6 6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him. NASU Col 1:16-18 16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities– all things have been created through Him and for Him. 17 He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. NASU Note that the above verses place God's Son in the beginning, before all things in heaven and on earth were created and since creation happened a loooooong time before Jesus became a man, even thousands of years before, this is clearly showing pre-existence. There are so many on these boards that seek truth and unity, God help us! K

I totally agree with you and you gave good scriptures to prove your understanding.

Peace and Love Mrs.

[942767]

Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 27 2008,15:38)

Hello 94, Thank you for your good response.  Jesus's pre-existence is something I see in scriptures so clearly.  This discussion is good and can hopefully strengthen us in God's word.  Let's see if these three verses can help: John 1:2 2 He was in the beginning with God.   (That is talking about Jesus as we see later in that chapter of John 1.) 1 Cor 8:6 6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him. NASU Col 1:16-18 16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities– all things have been created through Him and for Him. 17 He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. NASU Note that the above verses place God's Son in the beginning, before all things in heaven and on earth were created and since creation happened a loooooong time before Jesus became a man, even thousands of years before, this is clearly showing pre-existence. There are so many on these boards that seek truth and unity, God help us! K

Hi Lightenup:

I like that you are interested in coming into unity, and that is also my desire, and after we have discussed our differences and we still can't agree then it is time to pray asking God to bring us into unity by showing us what He intended by those scriptures in question.

Thanks for sharing those scriptures which you understand to mean pre-existence, but to me they just mean that Jesus was foreordained.  God created every thing that He created with Jesus in mind.  He is God's heir and we are joing heirs with him.

I just got home from a bible study and the following scripture was mentioned by the pastor who was teaching:

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Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren

The term “first born” is used in this scripture and agrees with the scripture in Col 1.  Jesus is the first born again from the dead, and now we also who are born again Christians have been born again from the dead.  He is the first born among many brethren.

The spirit of the Son was with God in the beginning and He knew that He would conceive a Son who would obey Him without sin in the beginning.

The following scripture may help:

Quote

1 Corinthians 10   1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; 2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat; 4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ. 5 But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.

In the OT the people of the Nation of Israel were taught the Word of God, but none obeyed the Word without sin, but thank God for Jesus who did obey without sin even unto death of the cross, and the blood that he shed is the propitiation for the sins of those who were striving to obey God in the OT as well as for ours.  God has seen all of this from the beginning, and is very good.

God Bless

[Lightenup]

Dear 94,
Well, we really see things differently for sure! The verse you quoted:
Rom 8:29-30
29 For those whom He foreknew…..(The “those” are future believers)
He also predestined…(God the Father chose ahead of time)
to become conformed to the image of His Son,…(to become like Christ)
so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; (so that Christ would be the firstborn of God with many adopted brothers and sisters.) NASU
94, Do you understand that verse the way I have paraphrased it in parenthesis? Or how do you understand that verse? Maybe if we take one verse at a time we can figure this out. Wouldn't that be nice.
Blessings, K

[NickHassan]

Hi 94,
Did God create beings with spirits but no soul or body to be with him in heaven?
Are there any other such spirit only beings in scripture??

[GeneBalthrop]

Mr.steve and Nick………i believe you both believe your new nature was a result of your own choices brought about by your own (Free Will), then please explain this scripture, ” For He works in us to BOTH WILL and do His goood pleasure, and while your at it please show me the Words Free Will's in the scriptures. Again you add inplication to the texts, and again while your explaining that also explain why Jesus said No man (CAN) come unto Me (UNLESS) the Father (Draw) ,greek Drag, HIM. You both doint seem to understand the power of God to cause change in a person and that includes his choices , you make it sound like the person saves himself by his own choices. No where is this backed up in scripture.

IMO………….gene

[Mr. Steve]

Quote

Mr.steve and Nick………i believe you both believe your new nature was a result of your own choices brought about by your own (Free Will), then please explain this scripture, ” For He works in us to BOTH WILL and do His goood pleasure, and while your at it please show me the Words Free Will's in the scriptures. Again you add inplication to the texts, and again while your explaining that also explain why Jesus said No man (CAN) come unto Me (UNLESS) the Father (Draw) ,greek Drag, HIM. You both doint seem to understand the power of God to cause change in a person and that includes his choices , you make it sound like the person saves himself by his own choices. No where is this backed up in scripture. IMO………….gene

Hi Gene;

God's grace is ever present. Thank God. We've looked at the issue of the grace of God from the front end, but let's now view it from the judgment side, the back end.

Look at any parable you choose regarding stewardship and service to the Lord. The Goodman, the talents, the pounds, and the faithful servants are all good. Those who did God's will are commended by God. Those who failed to perform, are judged otherwise. The reasons appear in the scriptures for both. No where does Jesus say you did God's will based upon grace. The grace of God hath appeared to all men. God draws but we must choose to follow. If any may follow me… Following Christ requires active participation. We should always rely on him to the fullest to perform his will, but the duty to make conscious decisions to do so remains.

Take Care

Steven

[NickHassan]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Feb. 29 2008,03:20)

Mr.steve and Nick………i believe you both believe your new nature was a result of your own choices brought about by your own (Free Will), then please explain this scripture, ” For He works in us to BOTH WILL and do His goood pleasure, and while your at it please show me the Words Free Will's in the scriptures. Again you add inplication to the texts, and again while your explaining that also explain why Jesus said No man (CAN) come unto Me (UNLESS) the Father (Draw) ,greek Drag, HIM. You both doint seem to understand the power of God to cause change in a person and that includes his choices , you make it sound like the person saves himself by his own choices. No where is this backed up in scripture. IMO………….gene

Hi Gene,
Paul wrote to those in Christ only.
They have already submitted their will to that of God by obeying the demands that came through His Son.
God is in them at work by His Spirit.

The Spirit of God is a very powerful force in submitted men as Christ and the apostles showed.

[Author]

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