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T8…….> we have freewill's to decide if we will walk in God's ways, but where does it say we have freewill to decide whats right or wrong, good or evil. The decision of whats right or wrong or good or evil belongs to God alone. Thats why God told Adam and Eve Not to eat (take to themselves) of the tree (that which produces from self) of good and evil.
It would have been impossible for Adam and Eve not to have sinned soner or later once they ate (took to themselfs) to produce the understanding of whats is good or evil. No it is not up to us to DECIDE what IS good and what is evil thats God's perogitive and no one else's. It's up to us to decide if we Will put our Will's to death when they are in oposition to God's will. God gives Us his Holy Spirit to Help us to do that.
Adam and eve did not have that help in them. That guidence just wasn't there, So how could they have not failed.While we have a free will to choose if we will obey, we certinly do not have a freewill to decide what is good or evil thats the Father decision not ours.
Anyway your right this should be another thread. It would be an interesting one.
IMO……peace to you and yours T8……..gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Nov. 03 2007,04:46) we have freewill's to decide if we will walk in God's ways, but where does it say we have freewill to decide whats right or wrong, good or evil.
I didn't say that gene.I said that if it were predestined for Adam to fall, then God putting his hope in Adam by saying be fruitful and multiply would be ironic if God set him up to fail.
I think that there may already be a discussion on free will somewhere.
Quote (t8 @ Nov. 03 2007,10:06) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Nov. 03 2007,04:46) we have freewill's to decide if we will walk in God's ways, but where does it say we have freewill to decide whats right or wrong, good or evil.
I didn't say that gene.I said that if it were predestined for Adam to fall, then God putting his hope in Adam by saying be fruitful and multiply would be ironic if God set him up to fail.
I think that there may already be a discussion on free will somewhere.
Good morning t8I don't think? that what was made earthly was mean't to be perfect, but to be quickend in perfection later, just Gods design.
Hope you are well
Quote mr steve Did Yeshua have flesh in heaven before he was born of Mary?
The truth in John 1 is that the Son of God pre-existed with God in the beginning. God involved his Son when he created the world and without him was not anything made. What kind of glorified body Christ possessed in heaven is not revealed in scripture, so its a non-issue. It's speculation, but then again, that's how you got your doctrine isn't it?
Quote Was he a man with God in the beginning? This is a very good question WJ if you were born again yesterday. For the answer you should read Galatians. In the fullness of time God sent his Son, made of a woman. So the Son was made a man when he occupied the womb of Mary. Oh, Mary is the mother of Jesus, whom he only refers to as a woman twice in the gospel of John. You might try reading the gospel of John. That's where Jesus expounds upon his relationship with his Father and reveals truths that characterize the nature of the relationship that are not depicted in John 1:1-3. But then again, you probably wouldn't care for the rest of the gospel because Christ never calls himself God even though they accused him of trying to be equal with God. He responded, I said I am the Son of God. I'm sorry if this is too deep for you. I should stop now lest you choke on the meat of his word.
Quote Did he create himself? For nothing came into existence without him! Jesus said God was his Father and his God so his origin was in God. He was created by his Father who is his God. Oh, I know that's so hard to grasp but in time as you feed on the milk of his word you understand.
Quote Why do you not accept the following scriptures that confirm Jn 1:1? Why do you twist them to fit into your Arian belief? Like Henotheism and Unitarianism you are teaching a man made doctrine.
Speaking of man-made doctrines, your doctrine wasn't sent down from heaven. You're funny WJ. You actually made me laugh today. I needed that. Sometimes I feel as though my day just wouldn't be complete without your insults. So you know what kind of a response you're going to get from me. You must enjoy this. Why do you continue this insanity of accusing me of twisting when your doctrine is the mother twist of all doctrines. Incidentally, you still haven't answered my question. If Christ and God existed eternally together, how is it you do not believe he did not pre-exist. Does your Sunday school teacher know what you believe? The trinity teaches that Christ pre-existed as the Son of God. I've checked it out. You cannot be a trinitarian without believing Christ pre-existed. Do you have any idea how this makes you appear. You're actually a … a… a… , I don't know. I think it makes you a unitarian, but I'm not sure on that, perhaps T8 or Kejonn would have a better handle on what your belief is, rather than me.
Quote Isa 44:24
Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; *that stretcheth forth the heavens alone*; that spreadeth abroad the earth *by myself*;Isa 45:18
For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: *I am the LORD; and there is none else*.Job 9:6
Which alone spreadeth out the heavens, and treadeth upon the waves of the sea.The scriptures above need no special interpretation, for they bear witness for themselves.
I'm delighted you've quoted your favorite scriptures which you espouse to prove the trinity. You've even highlighted the wording in every verse that I wanted to bring to your attention. In every verse, the language used is “alone” “by myself” “I am the Lord, there is none else”. Does Jesus ever make a claim that he created any thing by himself in John 1?
The language in John is “without 'him' was not any thing made that was made”. That's substantially different. John tells us that the Son of God was involved in evey aspect of creation with his Father. How? Because whatsoever he saw his Father do, he did likewise when the Father by his power alone and by himself gave Christ the power to create. That's the only way to reconcile the old testament with John, Colossians, Hebrews, and Revelation. Christ was the beginning of the creation of God. The origin of the creation of God. Rev. 3:14What you are preaching contradicts what John says. You don't believe that the Son pre-existed, so when the scriptures say by him were all things made that were made and without him was not anything made, you reject it. A real trinitarian would believe what John said.
Again, you really made me laugh today. Sometimes I wonder if you're just rolling over on your side laughing, too.
Take care
Steven
P.S. Go Seahawks. I think they playing in your neck of the woods this Sunday.
Quote (Mr. Steve @ Nov. 03 2007,10:37) In every verse, the language used is “alone” “by myself” “I am the Lord, there is none else”. Does Jesus ever make a claim that he created any thing by himself in John 1?
Excellent point Mr Steve.
TowShab……> It says in the new Testemant (no offence intended), that God so loved the world that He Gave His only begotten son, that whosoever believes on Him should not parish.
Lets conceder this for a moment, lets look at it very closely.
1….God so Loved the World. (Love) is what you want to hang on to. God wanted to hang onto the world.
2…. (THAT) or this is the reason, He gave His only begotten son. Question does it say God Killed His Son? NO. Its saying God allowed it to take place.
3…. in Isiah 53:10, Shows it pleased the Lord bruise Him, question (WHY DID IT PLEASE GOD)?, Because Jesus, of His own free WILL poured out His Soul unto death, and that is what pleased the Father. Not that God took Him and murdered Him. But God allowed Him to offer up Himself as a payment for our sins. Jesus made Himself the payment for our sins. He was our Kindsmen redeemer. God allowed and accepted the price He Paid. And because He Did that God Our Father has elevated Him Above every name in Heaven and earth Except the Father of course.
Jesus Plainly said he didn't have to do it, and was told that by The Father. Jesus never sinned so the death penalty was not on Him so He was the only one who could ATONE for our sins, by rigth of Kindsmen reedemer.I know many Jew's Have that idea that Christians think God Killed his son, but the truth is God allowed Jesus to offer Himself as a payment for our sins. Thats why we believe we have been purchased at a price. And we have great confidence as a result in our salvation.
Hope this helped TowShab…….Sholam…..Gene
Quote TowShab……> It says in the new Testemant (no offence intended), that God so loved the world that He Gave His only begotten son, that whosoever believes on Him should not parish. Lets conceder this for a moment, lets look at it very closely.
1….God so Loved the World. (Love) is what you want to hang on to. God wanted to hang onto the world.
2…. (THAT) or this is the reason, He gave His only begotten son. Question does it say God Killed His Son? NO. Its saying God allowed it to take place.
3…. in Isiah 53:10, Shows it pleased the Lord bruise Him, question (WHY DID IT PLEASE GOD)?, Because Jesus, of His own free WILL poured out His Soul unto death, and that is what pleased the Father. Not that God took Him and murdered Him. But God allowed Him to offer up Himself as a payment for our sins. Jesus made Himself the payment for our sins. He was our Kindsmen redeemer. God allowed and accepted the price He Paid. And because He Did that God Our Father has elevated Him Above every name in Heaven and earth Except the Father of course.
Jesus Plainly said he didn't have to do it, and was told that by The Father. Jesus never sinned so the death penalty was not on Him so He was the only one who could ATONE for our sins, by rigth of Kindsmen reedemer.I know many Jew's Have that idea that Christians think God Killed his son, but the truth is God allowed Jesus to offer Himself as a payment for our sins. Thats why we believe we have been purchased at a price. And we have great confidence as a result in our salvation.
Hope this helped TowShab…….Sholam…..Gene
Excellent post Gene.
Towshab……> I know that many preach Jesus to the exclusion of the Father and this is indeed Idolarty even theough it done in the name of “Christainty”, But if you will Just read what Jesus Himself says, you will see Jesus never took the Place of the Father but always glorified Him as a true Jew would have, Please try to not listen to what people say but look at what Jesus Himself say's, and you will see He had no other God Besides God Himself, and He worshiped Him only and told us to do the same even showing us how to pray to Him.
If you read what Jesus Himself say's you see what i mean.
Shalom………gene
i would like to know if you guys think YHWH is God's actual name, i know i have asked in other threads, but my understanding is that Yahweh is God's actual name and that Elohim and others are just titles. Jews started writing Yahweh as YHWH because they wanted to live above reproach concerning the commandment in Exodus 20:7
7 “You shall not take the NAME of the LORD your God in vain, for the LORD will not hold him guiltless who takes His name in vain.
what are your thoughts on this?
anyone can answer. i am interested.Brutus;
There's much discussion on the name of the Lord;e.g., Yahweh, Elohim, etc. Whenever God appeared to someone in the Bible in a dream, vision, or in an audible voice, he declared who he was, not just by a particular title or name, but also that he was the same God that appeared to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. The most important truth is that the God we serve is one God and is the same God that created all things by Christ Jesus. Whatever name or title you use to refer to God isn't as important as knowing who you are referring to the one who is above all.
When the Father sent Christ into the world, Jesus or Yeshua (same name just different languages) said that he came in his Father name. What he was saying was that he was sent by God and came on behalf of God his Father. Jesus didn't go into all the various names of God that God used to identify himself in the old testament. Rather, Jesus said that his Father was God and was the same God that was the God of Abraham. When Jesus said his Father was the God of Abraham he made the implicit declaration that he was the God of all the forefathers of the faith, Moses, and prophets that served the God of Abraham.
In John 6:45 Jesus said as it is written in the prophets, they shall all be taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard and learned of the Father cometh unto me.
So Jesus was very clear that all the prophets also taught that God was the Father of all and referred to the same God.
Steven
I know in genesis it talks about “between your seed and her seed” my uncle was a baptist minister and he had shown me that there is a link between the new testament and the old as to where Jese was in the begining anyone know anything about this i cannot find the passage.
GENESIS 3:15
“And I shall put enmity between you and the woman and between your seed and her seed. He will bruise you in the head and you will bruise him in the heel.””These words were spoken to the serpant (who I believe is Satan the devil using the serpant as a puppet.)
I believe the “woman” is God's wifelike celestial organization.REVELATION 12:4
“and its tail drags a third of the stars of heaven, and it hurled them down to the earth. And the dragon kept standing before the woman who was about to give birth, that, when she did give birth, it might devour her child.”REVELATION 12:6
“And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and sixty days.”REVELATION 12:13-17
“Now when the dragon saw that it was hurled down to the earth, it persecuted the woman that gave birth to the male child. But the two wings of the great eagle were given the woman, that she might fly into the wilderness to her place; there is where she is fed for a time and times and half a time away from the face of the serpent. And the serpent disgorged water like a river from its mouth after the woman, to cause her to be drowned by the river. But the earth came to the woman’s help, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed up the river that the dragon disgorged from its mouth. And the dragon grew wrathful at the woman, and went off to wage war with the remaining ones of her seed, who observe the commandments of God and have the work of bearing witness to Jesus.”the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother.–Gal 4:26
Anyway, I believe that Satan has enmity with God's heavenly organization. Their seeds have enmity with one another. Jesus is the primary seed of this prophecy.
as it is pertaining to pre-existance, it is important to decide whether YHWH is God's actual name, as there are multiple passages in the old testament that refer to the Angel of YHWH and then refer to the same person as YHWH himself. I believe that YHWH is God's name, and the rest are titles. any feedback?
Hi BB,
If God is an angel then scripture says we will be greater than God as angels serve the sons of God?On the topic of did Jesus pre-exist, the answer is yes, He did.
John described it this way:
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 He was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things came into being through Him, and without Him not even one thing came into being that has come into being.
Joh 1:4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men.
Joh 1:5 And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not overtake it.
Joh 1:6 There was a man sent from God; his name was John.
Joh 1:7 This one came as a witness, to bear witness concerning the Light, so that all might believe through him.
Joh 1:8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
Joh 1:9 He was the true Light; He enlightens every man coming into the world.
Joh 1:10 He was in the world, and the world came into being through Him, and the world did not know Him.
Joh 1:11 He came to His own, and His own received Him not.
Joh 1:12 But as many as received Him, He gave to them authority to become the children of God, to those who believe on His name,
Joh 1:13 who were born, not of bloods, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but were born of God.
Joh 1:14 And the Word became flesh, and tabernacled among us. And we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and of truth.The Word of God was WITH God and WAS God. Then the Scriptures go on to say:
Heb 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honor, that He by the grace of God should taste death for all.So we see that, according to the above Scripture, He was no longer God, but became subject to His Father as the firstborn Son of God.
There is evidence in Revelation of the Word of God returning, so Jesus pre-existed as the Word of God and was God, and was then born as Jesus, making God a Father.
Quote (Oxy @ Dec. 17 2007,11:42) On the topic of did Jesus pre-exist, the answer is yes, He did. John described it this way:
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 He was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things came into being through Him, and without Him not even one thing came into being that has come into being.
Joh 1:4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men.
Joh 1:5 And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not overtake it.
Joh 1:6 There was a man sent from God; his name was John.
Joh 1:7 This one came as a witness, to bear witness concerning the Light, so that all might believe through him.
Joh 1:8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
Joh 1:9 He was the true Light; He enlightens every man coming into the world.
Joh 1:10 He was in the world, and the world came into being through Him, and the world did not know Him.
Joh 1:11 He came to His own, and His own received Him not.
Joh 1:12 But as many as received Him, He gave to them authority to become the children of God, to those who believe on His name,
Joh 1:13 who were born, not of bloods, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but were born of God.
Joh 1:14 And the Word became flesh, and tabernacled among us. And we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and of truth.The Word of God was WITH God and WAS God. Then the Scriptures go on to say:
Heb 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honor, that He by the grace of God should taste death for all.So we see that, according to the above Scripture, He was no longer God, but became subject to His Father as the firstborn Son of God.
There is evidence in Revelation of the Word of God returning, so Jesus pre-existed as the Word of God and was God, and was then born as Jesus, making God a Father.
Before Jesus became flesh He was the Word? Was that the spoken Word of God? Jesus' name in heaven before He became flesh was Word? Did God tell the Word to create light? All things were created through the WORD and for the WORD that became flesh…a person the very first child of God.So the Word became flesh, then what was the Word before the Word became flesh? The very first thing God created was the Word. Then He spoke everything into existence.
Rom 4:17 (as it is written, A father of many nations have I made thee) before him whom he believed, even God, who giveth life to the dead, and calleth the things that are not, as though they were.
Quote (kenrch @ Dec. 17 2007,12:55) Quote (Oxy @ Dec. 17 2007,11:42) On the topic of did Jesus pre-exist, the answer is yes, He did. John described it this way:
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 He was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things came into being through Him, and without Him not even one thing came into being that has come into being.
Joh 1:4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men.
Joh 1:5 And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not overtake it.
Joh 1:6 There was a man sent from God; his name was John.
Joh 1:7 This one came as a witness, to bear witness concerning the Light, so that all might believe through him.
Joh 1:8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
Joh 1:9 He was the true Light; He enlightens every man coming into the world.
Joh 1:10 He was in the world, and the world came into being through Him, and the world did not know Him.
Joh 1:11 He came to His own, and His own received Him not.
Joh 1:12 But as many as received Him, He gave to them authority to become the children of God, to those who believe on His name,
Joh 1:13 who were born, not of bloods, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but were born of God.
Joh 1:14 And the Word became flesh, and tabernacled among us. And we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and of truth.The Word of God was WITH God and WAS God. Then the Scriptures go on to say:
Heb 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honor, that He by the grace of God should taste death for all.So we see that, according to the above Scripture, He was no longer God, but became subject to His Father as the firstborn Son of God.
There is evidence in Revelation of the Word of God returning, so Jesus pre-existed as the Word of God and was God, and was then born as Jesus, making God a Father.
Before Jesus became flesh He was the Word? Was that the spoken Word of God? Jesus' name in heaven before He became flesh was Word? Did God tell the Word to create light? All things were created through the WORD and for the WORD that became flesh…a person the very first child of God.So the Word became flesh, then what was the Word before the Word became flesh? The very first thing God created was the Word. Then He spoke everything into existence.
Rom 4:17 (as it is written, A father of many nations have I made thee) before him whom he believed, even God, who giveth life to the dead, and calleth the things that are not, as though they were.
I don't ever remember reading where God created the Word. He was in the beginning.
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