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Hi Gene,
YOU: Berean……yes God’s word was indeed with God, just us as your word is with you. You can’t separate yourself from your words,
neither can God either!
Mark 10:27 And Jesus looking on them, saith: With men it is impossible; but not with God:
for all things are possible with God.
Isaiah 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts:
nor your ways my ways, saith the Lord.
9For as the heavens are exalted above the earth,
so are my ways exalted above your ways,
and my thoughts above your thoughts.
10And as the rain and the snow come down from heaven, and return no more thither, but soak the earth, and water it, and make it to spring, and give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater:
11So shall my word be, which shall
GO FORTH from my mouth:
it shall not return to me void,
but it SHALL DO whatsoever I please,
and SHALL PROSPER in the things for which I sent it.
HERE IT COMES Gene:
John8:42 Jesus therefore said to them: If God were your Father, you would indeed love me.
For from God I PROCEEDED and CAME;
for I came not of myself, but he sent me:
John10:36 Do you say of him (JESUS ) whom the Father
HATH SANCTIFIED ( Present Perfect Tense; an action commenced in the past; Jesus PRE-EXISTED)
and sent into the world:
Thou blasphemest, because I said, I am the Son of God?
John13:3 Knowing that the Father had given him all things into his hands,
and that he CAME from God, and goeth to God;
John16:27For the Father himself loveth you, because you have loved me, and have believed
that I CAME OUT from God.
28I CAME FORTH from the Father,
and am come into the world: again I leave the world,
and I go to the Father.
John17:8 Because the words which thou gavest me, I have given to them; and they have received them,
and have known in very deed that I CAME OUT from thee,
and they have believed that thou didst send me.
“THE WORD” JESUS, THE SON OF MAN IS IN YOU, Gene,
AND WHETHER YOU BELIEVE IT OR NOT, HE WILL JUDGE YOU ACCORDING TO YOUR OWN WORDS ON YOUR LAST DAY ON EARTH AS SOON AS YOU DIE READ:
John 12:48 He that despiseth me, and receiveth not my words,
hath ONE that judgeth him;
the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
ASSERTED IN:
John5:22 For neither doth the Father judge any man,
but hath given ALL judgment to the Son.
23That all men may honour the Son, as they honour the Father.
He who honoureth not the Son, honoureth not the Father, who hath sent him.
Peace and love in Jesus Christ
Hi Proclaimer, I keep on hearing this from the mouth of many non-trinitarians. I wonder how they differentiate ‘the word’ from ‘word’? Similarly how divine is different from God? So you want to differentiate your self from Trinitarians stating that Jesus is not God but he is divine? This is the problem with NT it is diversity on Christology and not unity.
I do not wish to differentiate myself for the sake of being different. I simply have returned to the faith as it was delivered to the apostles and disciples. Much religion today belongs to organisations that are of this world.
When you ignore their doctrines and read what the Bible is actually saying, it is remarkably different from the traditional views. And yet this makes sense. The messiah said these words:
Thus you nullify the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And you do many things like that.”
As for divine nature, it doesn’t make you God. Yes God has divine nature, but he shares his nature.
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature, having escaped the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.
If we can be divine and still not be God, then this is true of the messiah too. Jesus taught us that he calls us brothers. Yet to God, we are his children. There is a divine order that traditional religion hides.
But I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.
God > Christ > Man
You: Likewise, we know that the Word was theos means the Word was divine as there is no definite article in John 1:1c.
Me: I agree.
“the Logos was divine” – The Bible: James Moffatt Translation, by James Moffatt.
“and the Word was divine” – The Bible: An American Translation, by John M. P. Smith and Edgar J. Goodspeed, Chicago.
“so the Word was divine” – The Authentic New Testament, by Hugh J. Schonfield, Aberdeen.Amen! When read without Trinitarian bias, one sees the truth.
Proclaimer……Tell us was Adan born or created, you false assumption of them being the same is wrong, because “born”, “ALWAYS”, implies a “BIRTH” process, while a creation does not. Adam and eve were “CREATED”, not “born”, The first person “BORN” was “CAIN”.
If creation is defined by God creating through the Word, then what of the Word that was WITH God? Was the Word created by God through the Word? An oxymoron.
The Word became flesh Gene. Jesus name is the Word of God. He emptied himself, humbled himself, died, rose again, and provided the perfect sacrifice for all sin to those who accept it. He is now in the glory he had with God before the universe was created. He returns as the Word of God.
Proclaimer…..the word of God, “became”
became……came to pass , God the Father own prophesied words came to pass, or “came to be”, it was the “flesh man” Jesus, when His human mother gave birth to him. That verse is not saying Jesus is Gods word himself, It’s saying the words God spoke through his prophets came to pass, it was the “flesh man Jesus”. That not saying Jesus is God the Fathers word himself at all, but a “fulfillment” of God the fathers word that came into existence , it was the “flesh man” Jesus.
God and his word is one and the exact same, just as you and your words are, unless you are quoting someone else words, Just as Jesus did to us, but he clarified it, saying “the words i am telling you are “NOT” MY WORDS, but the WORDS of him who sent me. This is obviously Jesus telling us those words were “NOT” HIS, so how could he himself be the word? Common sense should tell you that Proclaimer.
peace and love to you and yours………gene
Gene
Proclaimer…..the word of God, “became”
became……came to pass , ……etc
Never is such language used to say that a prophecy comes true. It’s an excuse that Satan made a long time ago, since he no longer wants to bow down to the Son of God and God Himself.
As for divine nature, it doesn’t make you God. Yes God has divine nature, but he shares his nature.
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature, having escaped the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.
If we can be divine and still not be God, then this is true of the messiah too. Jesus taught us that he calls us brothers. Yet to God, we are his children. There is a divine order that traditional religion hides.
Hi Proclaimer, thanks for replying my query. But the Christian claim of part taking in divinity or divine nature by the Messaiah and human beings is very strange idea which is not found in the Hebrew Bible.
Proclaimer,
You said: Propaganda again.
Please enlighten us and be more specific as to what he said that was wrong.
Hi Danny,
You asked:
Hi LU,
If Jesus is Yahweh, then that would contradict Isaiah 45:5.
“I am Yahweh, and there is no one else.
Besides me, there is no God.” Isaiah 45:5The Bible is a harmony.
So Hebrews 1 has to fit with Isaiah 45:5If you disagree, then please tell me who is speaking in Isaiah 45:5?
If you say the Father and the Son together, then what about the personal pronouns I and Me?
Yahweh is the Father of Jesus Christ Acts 3:13“The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Son Jesus” Acts 3:13
You have asked a million dollar question, my friend. You are right that the Bible is in harmony. If you believe that YHVH is only one person and that one person alone created the world then what do you do with John 1:3 and Col 1:16, 1 Cor 8:6?
As you probably know by now, I believe that YHVH is both the God of gods and the Lord of lords, two persons. The God of gods is YHVH, who is the Father, and the Lord of lords is YHVH, who is the Son. They act and speak as one. Therefore we see the pronouns “I” and “Me.” At other times, when they are talking to each other, we see the pronouns like “Us” as in “Let Us make man.” The Lord of lords does the will of the God of gods, always. The Father is the head within their unity. How can two perfect beings who are father and son be anything but perfect in unity and act in anyway that is not in unison as one? If they acted in opposition to each other as two opposing gods, they would cease from being two perfect persons. At least one of them would have to be less than perfect for there to be any opposition/disagreement among them. Do you agree?
Blessings, LU
Proclaimer,
You said: Propaganda again.
Please enlighten us and be more specific as to what he said that was wrong.Science is open to scrutiny. It looks at the options and comes up with solutions that best fit the observation and is suppose to test all hypothesis.
Propaganda is a doctrine or theory that is not challenged or questioned. It refuses to hear or take into consideration evidence that counters it. So many are like that. It will even go as far as to be offended by the mere act of questioning it. I care not for propaganda. I am a truth seeker. I know a person who is on that path when I meet them. And I know a person who is not when I meet them because their mind i made up and not even the truth can sway them.
As you probably know by now, I believe that YHVH is both the God of gods and the Lord of lords, two persons. The God of gods is YHVH, who is the Father, and the Lord of lords is YHVH, who is the Son.
I’m siding with Paul.
For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as there are many so-called gods and lords), yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we exist. And there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we exist. But not everyone has this knowledge.
Hi Proclaimer
You did not reply to my last post, Pleased, at least tell me what you think of the king of glory of Psalm 24.
Who is he for you? (identity)What event does it show?(verses 7 -10)
Darby’s English Translation
24:10 Who is he, this King of glory? Jehovah of hosts, he is the King of glory. Selah.Hebrew Transliterated
24:10 MY HV’a ZH MLK HKBVD YHVH TShB’aVTh HV’a MLK HKBVD SLH.Thank you
Hi To all
Do Non-Trinitarians Believe in a Binary Concept of God?
Nope. This is a faulty assessment and a false accusation.
The Bible declares that “…God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints” (1 Cor. 14:33).
Therefore, the Bible is not to bring confusion, but of peace to all the churches of the saints; however, those that “…go to confusion together…” are they “…that are makers of idols” (Isaiah 45:16).
The application of idolatry is not confined to the actual worship of graven images or of anything else other than God, but it also applies to a false concept of God that exists in the mind.
“Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.” “Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator…” (Romans 1:21,25)
If our concept of God is not the truth, but a lie, then in essence, we are worshipping a creature, which was created in our mind through the false concept.
But how does the truth of God turn into a lie? When people wrest or twist His words.
“…which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.” (2 Pet. 3:16)
The modern term for this is “eisegesis,” which “is the process of interpreting text in such a way as to introduce one’s own presuppositions, agendas or biases…” While “exegesis is drawing out text’s meaning in accordance with the author’s context and discoverable meaning.” (Wikipedia)
The study of the subject of God Himself in the Bible could find its core in the very first verse in Genesis 1:1, “In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.” It is an explicit declaration that God was the Creator of Heaven and earth, which if was believed by all; no one would have fallen into deifying anything that was created.
Moses wrote this text under the inspiration of God because, “All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine…” (2 Tim. 3:16); therefore, if we are to have the correct doctrine pertaining to the knowledge of God, we must learn what the author is conveying according to his knowledge of God, because if we read into their writings our own understanding, then it would mean that we are essentially presenting ourselves to be knowledgeable more than the authors about what they wrote.
In chapter one of Genesis, Moses narrated the creation of our world, which was by God. He consistently mentioned God in almost every verse as the Creator, but in verse 26, Moses wrote, “And God said, “Let us make man in our image…”
The Jews interpreted the “us” as referring to God and His angels in Heaven because the latter were created first before our world was; therefore, it made sense for the Jews to view this as such, but for the majority of Christians, the “us” was God the Father, God the Son, and God the Spirit, or the Trinity.
However, there is still a minority of Christians that are grafted in the strict monotheistic belief of the Jewish people, but share with the disciples the belief in Jesus as the Christ, and in the fulness of His divinity as the eternal Son of God.
And I am among the minority group.
It’s important that we discover from Moses, through his writings, just how he knew God, whether triune or not.
He wrote that God introduced Himself to him as the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob (see Ex. 3:6), and as a Parent of the people of Israel (see Ex. 4:22), but Moses referred to God as “He” (v.28); therefore, logic would teach us that God in personality, which refers to identity, was the Father of the people of Israel.
Now fast forward to the time of Jesus Christ. The Jews sought to kill Him because they accused Him of breaking the sabbath, but even more because they did not believe in His claim to divine equality with God because He said God was His Father.
“Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.” (John 5:18)
Then Jesus said to them, “For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me” (v.46).
This implied that they did not really believe in Moses even though they professed it (see John 9:28), because had they believed in his writings, Jesus said they would have believed on Him. This strongly suggests that Moses had the knowledge of Christ’s personality as the divine Son of God.
Therefore, Moses had the knowledge of God as their Father, and had the knowledge of Christ as His divine Son.
When he narrated the week of Creation, we now know that his knowledge of the personality of God was their Father, and that Christ was His divine Son. What should this then teach us? It should teach us that according to the knowledge of the author of the first five books of the Bible, that he understood God to be one Personality, the Father of Christ.
Therefore, when Moses wrote, “And God said, let us make man in our image…” (Gen. 1:26), we must apply the understanding from the author’s perspective, which was God was only one Person whose identity was the Father of Christ, and not as a triune Deity.
But to whom the Father said “Let us make man…”, we must also understand this from the author’s perspective. When God gave the Decalogue to Moses, the fourth commandment described the seventh-day as the Sabbath of the LORD as a memorial of His creation (see Ex. 20:8-11), but Jesus claimed that He was Lord “also” of the sabbath (Mark 2:28), which would suggest that Christ “also” created the Sabbath day; therefore, He was there with His Father during the week of creation, and Jesus claimed that Moses knew Him and wrote of Him; so much so, that if the Jews truly believed in his writings, they would have believed in the words of Jesus as the promised Saviour, as the divine Son of their God.
Therefore, from the author’s perspective, Moses knew whom he wrote about in Gen. 1:26 was the Father speaking to His Son.
Moreover, the apostle Paul clearly stated that Christ was the Agent of God in the execution of the creation of all things that have been created (see Eph. 3:9).
Moses used the Hebrew plural noun “Elohim” for the word “God,” which led many to interpret that Moses taught that their God was a plurality of persons, but this is very problematic because this goes against the perspective of the author regarding his knowledge of the personality of God; and second, the circumstantial evidence goes against it, which is by the fact that the Israelites as a people have never been anything but a strict monotheistic nation because this was the doctrine that they inherited from their forefathers.
Moses believed in his God as the Father of all; therefore, he employed the word “elohim” to ascribe Him greatness.
Moses wrote…
“Because I will publish the name of the LORD: ascribe ye greatness unto our God.” (Deut. 32:3)
Moses declared to the Israelites that their God was one LORD (see Deut. 6:4), which he said was the God of their forefathers (v.3), which prominently referred to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob (see Ex. 3:6), whom Peter described as the Father of Christ (see Acts 3:13).
And according to the prophet Malachi, we only have one Father; therefore, the one God that created us (see Mal. 2:10).
This title “one God” was never ascribed by anyone in the Scriptures to any other Person, other than to the Father of us all (see 1 Cor. 8:6; Eph. 4:6).
And despite of their belief in Christ as the divine Son of their God, no one ascribed Him the title “one God;” and the reason which Paul gave was this:
“One God and Father of all, who is above all…” (Eph. 4:6)
He is the only Person who is above all, which makes everyone under His supreme authority. Even Christ in His divine authority as God as having been anointed by the Father to be above His fellows (see Heb. 1:9) was Himself under the authority of His Father (Ibid); therefore, the Father is by Himself in this category as the “one God” of all.
But Jesus Christ is indeed God in terms of His divine nature because “…it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell.” “…the fulness of the Godhead bodily” (Col. 1:19; 2:9), and in terms of His supreme authority above all creations by the virtue of the anointing of the Father (see Heb. 1:9 cf. Phil. 2:9-11), but Jesus is NOT God in terms of personality, because His true personality is as the only-begotten Son of God.
And since Jesus is the divine Son of God, the anointed of the Father, He must receive homage (See Psalms 2:2,6,7,12; John 5:23) to the glory of our Father (see Phil. 2:9-11).
Some have accused me of teaching a binary version of God by believing in Christ as God, but this is a false accusation because my accusers simply refused to accept the distinct personalities of God and of Christ, which is the Father and His Son. They simply refused to accept that the oneness and unity of the Father with His Son does not translate to composing “one God,” but to oneness in Their will, desires, purpose, and in the holiness of Their Spirit (see John 14:7-11).
When we recognize that there is an existing distinction of divine personalities between the Father as God, and Christ as His divine Son, then we need not get confused over the fact that the Son is God in His eternal power and in His supreme authority over all creation, but He is NOT above all, for the Father is above Him.
And this is the key…
The union that exist between the Father and His Son does not destroy their distinct personalities of each. Only if my accusers would recognize this truth, because it would cause them to cease from thinking that we serve a binary concept of God.
The Holy Spirit was never believed by any authors of the Scriptures as a separate living divine Being like the Father and His Son are, or as God in His own rights as Trinitarians do.
But the very first mention of the Spirit was there in Genesis 1:2, “And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.”
Again, we must understand this according to the perspective of the author. We already learned that Moses understood God’s personality as the Father of Christ; therefore, when he wrote the “Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters,” his knowledge of this was the Spirit of the Father.
When Moses narrated Job’s story, “All the while my breath is in me, AND THE SPIRIT OF GOD is in my nostrils.” (Job 27:3), we must view the author’s understanding of the Spirit of God, which he wrote as the “breath of life” as the breath of God whom he recognized as the Father.
“And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils ‘THE BREATH OF LIFE;’ and man became a living soul” (Gen. 2:7)
But Paul wrote that God “…created all things by Jesus Christ” (Eph. 3:9); therefore, we must explore the idea that the Father has communicated His breath-giving life to all creatures through His Son.
“For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself.” “All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men.” (John 5:26; 1:3,4)
Therefore, there is truly only one Spirit in every soul that animates us all, but we do not inherently possess this Spirit, because our life is dependent upon the Son of God by whom all things consist (see Col. 1:17), and upholds all things (see Heb. 1:3).
While we did not have a choice to receive the breath of life, but each of us has a choice to receive the holiness of His Spirit if we would allow Christ to live in us by His Spirit (see Gal. 2:20), and not grieve it as did Ananias and his wife. Sapphira (see Acts 5:1-10).
People who are failing to understand that the Holy Spirit does not destroy the distinct personalities of God, and of Christ, WILL destroy the distinct personalities of God, and of Christ by imbibing a false concept like the Trinity from their pastors whom are also themselves victims of their seminaries that have become confusion by forming an idol in the minds of their students through the deviation from the perspectives of the authors of the Bible.
This is evident by the fact that pastors and ministers have preached from the pulpit claiming that Ananias and Saphirra have both lied against the Holy Ghost according to Peter in Acts 5:3, and by reading verse 4 which said that they lied “unto God,” have concluded that the Holy Ghost was God. Here is where their folly lies, because it’s so convenient to stop on this verse because it sounds so explicit that justifies the belief in the doctrine of the Trinity; however, if we continue to read what Peter said, we find in verse 9 that the Holy Ghost whom they lied to was the “Spirit of the Lord.” If we compare verses 3 and 4 with verse 9, we can understand that the Holy Ghost (v.3) was synonymous with the Spirit (v.9), and “God” (v.4) would be synonymous with “the Lord” (v.9), but what was Peter’s perspective regarding God? If you read on verses 29 and 30, Peter and also the other apostles said that God was the God of their forefathers, whom Peter said was the Father of Christ (see Acts 3:13) that raised Jesus up (see Acts 5:30); therefore, according to Peter’s perspective of the personality of God, he knew Him as the Father of Christ.
Moreover, Peter finally made it clear in verse 32 that the Holy Ghost, which was the “Spirit of the Lord” came from the Father; therefore, Ananias and Saphirra did lie to God (the Father) when they lied against His Spirit.
And I bid you God’s blessings if you received this reading with gladness.https://www.facebook.com/groups/HeavenlyTrioRevealed/permalink/786509665351222/
I didn’t read your whole post Berean because it is a bit long. But of what I did read, it looked pretty spot on.
I don’t think I have read that verse or studied it.
Besides that, we can say we have seen God when we see his image.
We can say what God is like to a degree when we look at what he has created.
We can say we have heard from God when we listen to the shepherd, the prophets, and anyone speaking by inspiration of the Spirit.
Yet many get very confused about God being invisible and men saying they have seen God.
Seeing is often comprehending too.
No man can see God. No man has seen God. You cannot see his form.
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