Pre-Nicene Writings – The Trinity Doctrine

[Lightenup]

@Danny Dabbs

Hi Danny,

Thank you for your reply. You said:

There are manuscripts that calls Jesus with the article “THE only begotten God” in John 1.18.
And some without the article.
Does this make any difference?
Well, I have to study that a little bit more.

I wouldn’t build a doctrine around the article whether it is present or not in a verse. For instance, in the verse John 1:18, there is no article for the invisible God yet in other verses there is. The same when Jesus is “theos” in the verse, sometimes there will be a definite article and sometimes not. Sometimes it is purely a nuance of Greek grammar. Anyway, there is a definite article in John 1:18 in connection with the Only Begotten God. Btw, it wasn’t uncommon in the early church father’s writings for them to distinguish between the Father and the Son with the words “unbegotten God” for the Father and “begotten God” for the Son.

You asked:

Do you believe that Jesus is Almighty God or a lesser God?

I believe that the One Almighty God is two persons, the Father and the Son. Of course, I also believe in the Holy Spirit, I just don’t understand the Bible to be saying that the Holy Spirit is a third person but instead, I see the Holy Spirit as the Father and Son’s individual Spirit united as one Spirit that has omnipresent potential and brings us their presence that extends from them and dwells within believers as well as unites the believers into one body, the church. I may be wrong since so many speak of the Holy Spirit as a third person. I just see it more inline with the scriptures as the united omnipresence of two persons.

I’m not sure you are interested in all that but if you have any questions, please ask. I will add that while I believe in One Almighty God who is two persons as one God in the FULLest sense, there is a sense where each is God in essence. The NT commonly distinguishes the two as God and Lord, YHVH is both God and Lord.

Anyway, you said that you believe that Jesus is the only begotten God. I do believe the greater question, then, is this: does the Father identify the Son as YHVH who laid the foundation of the earth and the heavens are the works of His hands in Heb. 1?

[Proclaimer]

@t8

Hi Proclaimer,

I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

But the question is if He is also God or just a god?

He’s divine.

Greek doesn’t have an indefinite article (a, an).

In English we have both indefinite and definite articles.

So when we say, “you are an angel”, you could be saying you are an actual angel or have the nature or attributes of an angel.

The Word was theos just means that the Word is divine, not ‘a divine’.

‘The Divine’ is God.

[Berean]

All things were made by him(“THE WORD); and without him was not any thing made that was made.

[Lightenup]

Proclaimer said:

The Word was theos just means that the Word is divine, not ‘a divine’.

The Father identifies the “Word” as YHVH, Heb 1:10-12 here:

10And:

“In the beginning, O Lord (YHVH), You laid the foundations of the earth,

and the heavens are the work of Your hands.

11They will perish, but You remain;

they will all wear out like a garment.

12You will roll them up like a robe;

like a garmenth they will be changed;

but You remain the same,

and Your years will never end.”i

[Proclaimer]

@berean

All things were made by him(“THE WORD); and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Is this a contradiction then?

The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For in Him all things were created, things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities. All things were created through Him and for Him.

He was with God in the beginning. Through Him all things were made, and without Him nothing was made that has been made. In Him was life, and that life was the light of men.…

Tell me Berean. Was Jesus Christ the creator or were all things made THROUGH him?

[Berean]

Hi Proclaimer

Tell me Berean. Was Jesus Christ the creator or were all things made THROUGH him? 

I believe that Jesus is the CREATIVE AGENT OF THE FATHER, HIS GREAT WORKER.
THE FATHER IS THE DESIGNER (CREATOR) AND THE SON IS THE EXECUTOR.

JESUS IS FROM GOD (THE FATHER) OMNIPOTENT
YES OMNIPOTENT

WOULD YOU BE AMAZED BY THIS?

[Proclaimer]

So all things were NOT made THROUGH him?

[Berean]

@ Proclaimer

John 5:26
For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;

Live in Himself 

In this “life in Himself” There IS the POWER To created “ALL THINGS”

IN HIM(The Word) WAS LIFE (Zoé)

So The Son has received the POWER TO CREATE ALL THINGS(WHEN He WAS BEGOTTEN BY the FATHER  in eternity past…

AND THE WORD WAS GOD

IN HIM WAS LIFE

IN HIM WAS OMNIPOTENT POWER

TO CREATE THE UNIVERSE.

Do You beleive THAT, Proclaimer?

 

 

[GeneBalthrop]

To all……Your using the word “firstborn”,  to mean first created.
Born is completely different then “created “.
Jesus is the first human being “born of the womb of a women, to enter into the kingdom of God.” He is also given by God that firstborn status of them who will also exactly like him will enter into the Kingdom of God also,   but none of that ever made him a God of any kind.  He has a God and it certainly is not himself , that is if you “truly believe Jesus”.  Many here say the believe him, but lie, because if they “truly” believed him,  then they would believe what he said right’?

 

Who here “TRULY “believes this… JOHN 17; 2-3……..”As you have given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as “YOU”  have give hm,  and this is life eternal,  that they might know “YOU” the “ONLY ”  true GOD,  and Jesus Christ who you have sent.”
So, who here “truly” believes what Jesus said? Or who here takes the word “ONLY” out of what Jesus said?   Those are the liars here because they profess Jesus but don’t believe what he said. 

peace and love to you all and yours…………gene

 

 

[Danny Dabbs]

@t8

Hi Proclaimer,

I finally got it.
God is not a nature. He is an identity.
Thanks for making that clear.
It’s very hard to think clear sometimes because of
the things we were being indoctrinated in our past.

[Danny Dabbs]

@Lightenup

Hi LU,

If Jesus is Yahweh, then that would contradict Isaiah 45:5.

“I am Yahweh, and there is no one else.
Besides me, there is no God.” Isaiah 45:5

The Bible is a harmony.
So Hebrews 1 has to fit with Isaiah 45:5

If you disagree, then please tell me who is speaking in Isaiah 45:5?
If you say the Father and the Son together, then what about the personal pronouns I and Me?
Yahweh is the Father of Jesus Christ Acts 3:13

“The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Son Jesus” Acts 3:13

[Berean]

Danny

The Son of God share the divine NAME OF His FATHER: YHWH

BECAUSE THE SON IS OF THE SAME SUBSTANCE AS THE FATHER

Who being(the Son) the brightness of his glory, and the EXPRESS image of his PERSON(substance), and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; (HEB.1:3)

PERSON

5287

upostasiV
hupostasis
hoop-os’-tas-is
from a compound of upo – hupo 5259 and isthmi – histemi 2476; a setting under (support), i.e. (figuratively) concretely, essence, or abstractly, assurance (objectively or subjectively):–confidence, confident, person, substance.

[Proclaimer]

To all……Your using the word “firstborn”,  to mean first created.

Not so. Creation is defined for us. It is all that was made by God through the Word.

Nothing was created outside of this.

Thus, the Word is not created.

The Word was WITH God in the beginning though.

Thus, the Word was begotten directly by God.

From that, all things were created by God through THE Word. (Yes, that is a definite article.)

[Proclaimer]

@dannyd

Hi Proclaimer,
I finally got it.
God is not a nature. He is an identity.
Thanks for making that clear.
It’s very hard to think clear sometimes because of
the things we were being indoctrinated in our past.

Hey that is awesome. It really isn’t that difficult, but as you say, when you have been taught otherwise it is. We need to unlearn somethings or better, learn truth and it flushes away the misunderstandings and lies. Like light shines through darkness.

As for the definite article and identity vs nature. One of the best examples of this is Adam and Eve.

Note: in English we use a capital letter to denote the definite article.

So ‘THE Theos’ is translated ‘God’ vs ‘god or gods’.

Definite article

THE Adam = the first man.

No article or indefinite article

adam = Hebrew word for ‘mankind’ which is a group of beings defined by nature.

So Eve is NOT Adam (That was her husband.)
But Eve is adam. (God created adam (man) male and female. Genesis 1:27.)

So, Eve is in nature man, but she is not THE Man or The Adam.

Likewise, we know that the Word was theos means the Word was divine as there is no definite article in John 1:1c.

[Proclaimer]

How do you get that he created all things from ‘Zoe’?

I googled it and this came up which I thought was interesting.

In the third century, Alexandrian Jews translated the Hebrew name Eve to its Greek equivalent, Zoe. The name became popular with early Christians, who associated its meaning of “life” with eternal life.

So Adam and Eve could be a bit like God and the Word.

That is, one is the originator and all to follow comes through the other.

Just thinking out loud here.

[GeneBalthrop]

Proclaimer……Tell us was Adan born or created,  you false assumption of them being the same is wrong, because “born”,  “ALWAYS”, implies a “BIRTH” process, while a creation does not.   Adam and eve were “CREATED”, not “born”,  The first person “BORN” was “CAIN”.  

Therefore Jesus said unto them,  “you are of your father (the devil),, because the Devil was a liar from the beginning, and was “in” Cain, who also became  a liar in the beginning, and lied to God, (I know not, am I my brothers keeper” ),   God also told Cain. “Sin” lied at the door (of his heart) JUST AS IT DID WITH THOSE PHARISEES HE WAS TALKING TO. And they did the same thing to Jesus as Cain did to his brother, they killed him.

Peace and love to you and yours…………gene

 

[Berean]

The SON OF GOD (named by John“THE WORD”) WAS WITH THE GOD IN THE BIGINNING AND HE WAS GOD.

ALL THINGS WERE MADE BY HIM ; AND WITHOUT HIM WAS NOT ANY THING MADE THAT WAS MADE.

 

[gadam123]

Likewise, we know that the Word was theos means the Word was divine as there is no definite article in John 1:1c.

Hi Proclaimer, I keep on hearing this from the mouth of many non-trinitarians. I wonder how they differentiate ‘the word’ from ‘word’? Similarly how divine is different from God? So you want to differentiate your self from Trinitarians stating that Jesus is not God but he is divine? This is the problem with NT it is diversity on Christology and not unity.

[Danny Dabbs]

@t8

Hi Proclaimer,

You: Likewise, we know that the Word was theos means the Word was divine as there is no definite article in John 1:1c.

Me: I agree.

“the Logos was divine” – The Bible: James Moffatt Translation, by James Moffatt.
“and the Word was divine” – The Bible: An American Translation, by John M. P. Smith and Edgar J. Goodspeed, Chicago.
“so the Word was divine” – The Authentic New Testament, by Hugh J. Schonfield, Aberdeen.

[carmel]

Hi Gene,

YOU: Many here say they believe him, but lie, because if they “truly” believed him,  

then they would believe what he said right’?
 

ME: Enjoy Gene, the truth:

18Hereupon therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he did not only break the sabbath, but also said God was his Father,

making himself equal to God.

23That all men may honour the Son, as they honour the Father.

He who honoureth not the Son, honoureth not the Father, who hath sent him.

30 I and  THE Father ARE ONE.

33The Jews answered him: For a good work we stone thee not,

but for blasphemy; and because that thou,

being a man, maketh THYSELF God.

38But if I do, though you will not believe me,

believe the works: that you may know and believe that

the Father is in me, and I in the Father.

John 14:7 If you had known me,

you would without doubt have known my Father also:

and from henceforth you shall know him,

and you have seen him.

9Jesus saith to him: Have I been so long a time with you;

and have you not known me?

Philip, he that seeth me seeth the Father also.

How sayest thou, Shew us the Father? 10Do you not believe,

that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? 

 

Peace and love in Jesus Christ

 

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