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Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 04 2010,13:52) Hi barley, Whoo Hoo! FINALLY A RESPONSE TO WHAT THIS THREAD IS ACTUALLY ABOUT!
You said:
Quote It reminds me of the question, “Are you still beating your wife?”
A very simple answer would be, “I have never beaten my wife sir, so your question is invalid.”
You said:
Quote 1. For instance, “If he WAS in human form ” What is with the word “IF”? Jesus Christ is, IS human, there is no if.
Well, since the “wife beating” question apparently threw you for a loop, I guess I should have been clearer with my question. Let's change it to, “Since you assert that Jesus WAS already in human form……”You said:
Quote 2. Likewise, “WAS”. Jesus Christ is, even now, in the present, in human form.
Okay, again I'll clarify. We'll change it to, “Since you assert that Jesus WAS already on earth in human form…….”You said:
Quote 3. Likewise, “If he WAS in human form while he was “in the form of God” Likewise,, Philippians does not say “Who was in the form of God.” It says, “Who, being in the form of God” the word, “being” is present tense, not past tense. Another false premise.
I assure you, they are not “false premises, just maybe not written clearly enough for you to understand what I meant. And even though the Greek word “huparcho” means “to begin”, and therefore the verse actually reads, “Who beginning in the form of God…..”, we'll change it to, “while being in the form of God……” just to keep you happy.You said:
Quote 4. Then you say, “make himself nothing”. Where does it say in Philippians that he “make himself nothing”? Yes, in the NIV, it says made himself nothing. What a “dungfilled” version. Other versions say, made himself of no reputation”, KJV. Or, “But stripped himself [of all privileges and rightful dignity],” Amplified. “but emptied himself” NAS.
Okay, let's go with “…..emptied himself…..”. Because while the Greek word “kenoo” does actually mean…….
1) to empty, make empty 2) to make void 2a) deprive of force, render useless, of no effect
……..its first definition is “to empty”, and you apparently like that one better.
You said:
Quote 5. Likewise, “being made in human form”? Again, a false premise. Philippians does not say, “being made in human form.” It says,” was made in the likeness of men”. We'll split the difference on this one. The Greek word “anthropos” does actually mean “a human being”. So let's keep the “human being”, but change the “being made” to “was made”, because the “being” and “was” is just added for the benefit of the English readers anyway.
So what did we end up with? Here is my new, revised, bolded question that I would love for ANY of you to actually answer directly now that barley has set me straight on my grammar skills:
Since you assert that Jesus was already on earth in human form while “being in the form of God”, how is it that he emptied himself and was made in the likeness of a human being?
Before I post my second DIRECT question that nobody answered, let me repost the verses with some other, equally valid definitions of the Greek words.
Who, beginning in the form of God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, but emptied himself, and took on the form of a slave, and was begotten in the likeness of a human being.”
Now every word I used above is a valid definition of the actual Greek word used. Knowing this, please answer my second question DIRECTLY.
IS THERE ANY SCRIPTURAL REASON THAT THE GREEK WORDS COULD NOT POSSIBLY MEAN WHAT I UNDERSTAND THEM TO MEAN? YES OR NO. If the answer is “NO”, please tell me why it is IMPOSSIBLE.
mike
Mikeboll64,Your question is again, unsupported by scripture. I will leave it to you to figure out why.
barley
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 05 2010,02:54) Mike………..Paul was talking about a (existence of a past event) when Jesus existed on earth before his assent He existed in the (form or nature ) of God because God was (IN) Him , but he did not try to be equal with Him because he was a man and not a GOD and He Know that even though GOD was (IN) HIM. So he took the position as a Servant because that what he was, He did not seek an equality with GOD and thereby (ROBBING) GOD of his Glory, Just as it says “I HAVE GLORIFIED (YOU) ON THE EARTH” < NOT HIMSELF. When are you going to accept these things, you are holding on tho a preconceived Ideology fostered by preexistences and is not scripturally factual. You trying it use this as some proof text is in error brother.
You have lost this one now go on the the next text to support your beliefs in Jesus preexistence brother.
peace and love to you and yours Mike…………………………..gene
Here Gene,Let me make it REALLY clear what I have been asking and what you guys can't answer.
Since you assert that Jesus was already on earth in human form while “being in the form of God”, how is it that he emptied himself and was made in the likeness of a human being?
Do you hear what I'm yelling? He was “begotten” in the form of a human being after he emptied himself. How is that possible if he already WAS a human being at the time?
Who, beginning in the form of God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, but emptied himself, and took on the form of a slave, and was begotten in the likeness of a human being.”
Now every word I used above is a valid definition of the actual Greek word used. Knowing this, please answer my second question DIRECTLY.
IS THERE ANY SCRIPTURAL REASON THAT THE GREEK WORDS COULD NOT POSSIBLY MEAN WHAT I UNDERSTAND THEM TO MEAN? YES OR NO. If the answer is “NO”, please tell me why it is IMPOSSIBLE.
Is there any scripture that tells you directly that MY UNDERSTANDING of what Phil 2 means is IMPOSSIBLE? Please answer this Gene! I need to either see the scripture that makes my understanding IMPOSSIBLE, or I need you to acknowledge that the words COULD ACTUALLY MEAN WHAT I THINK THEY DO.
ONE OR THE OTHER PLEASE. IF YOU CANNOT DIRECTLY ANSWER THE QUESTIONS, DON'T BOTHER POSTING YOUR OPINIONS TO ME. EITHER ANSWER THE QUESTIONS I'VE ASKED, OR DON'T POST TO ME AT ALL.
You see Gene, I completely understood your first flawed opinion that Paul was saying Jesus NOW exists in the form of God. But you realized that one didn't add up with the rest of the scripture, so you dropped it.
And I also completely understand your assertion that Paul was saying Jesus could have “lorded it over” people that he was God's “special” Son, but chose not to. That one is actually plausible if you reach far enough and use the exact combination of definitions of the Greek words to make it fit. But it is a FAR REACH to come to that understanding based on those Greek words; especially when you have to find a way to do away with the “was made in the likeness of a human being” part.
On the other hand, my blue translation above lists actual definitions of the Greek words in that passage, and it is not a reach at all to see it says Jesus pre-existed. And compared with the other 15 or so scriptures that support this fact, it is a no-brainer for any intelligent person.
So again, I will ask you and any other non-preexister to show me a scripture that makes it very plain that Jesus ABSOLUTELY did not pre-exist his flesh, or acknowledge that my understanding of Phil 2 is at least “viable”.
mike
Quote (barley @ Aug. 05 2010,11:02) Mikeboll64, Your question is again, unsupported by scripture. I will leave it to you to figure out why.
barley
Hi barley,On the contrary, it is DIRECTLY supported by not only Phil 2, but about 15 other scriptures. So, you can either make another vain attempt at discrediting how I worded my question, so I can again adjust it to your liking while ending up the same basic question…….. or I can take this flippant comment you made as a sign of surrender.
mike
Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 03 2010,15:34) Marty, You make a statement that is either true or untrue depending on what you mean by “extraordinary” human being. You state that Jesus is an “extraordinary” human being because he is the “Only Begotten Son of the Living God”. If you mean “extraordinary” in the same sense that any President of the U.S. would be considered to be “extraordinary” compared with the ordinary non-President of the U.S. then I agree. Jesus was the “Only Begotten Son of the Living God” because God elected him to be just like the citizens of the U.S. elects their Presidents. That is why he is called the Chosen One in Luke 23:35 by those who did not believe it was so. If you also want to state that Jesus despite being tempted just as any other human being had an extraordinary character or spirit and so resisted all that temptation then I also agree. I also am convinced that we can get that same character/spirit by obeying all Jesus’ teachings and so entering and living according to the dictates of the new covenant.
It is my belief that the evil one has thrown the meaning of the clause “the Only Begotten Son of the Living God” into dispute and thus I believe we need to be clear what we mean by it. I though, am but a student and so not fully educated in the word of God so all I can state is what I believe at this time is correct. I believe that the clause “The Only Begotten Son of the Living God” means that Jesus Is the exact representation of God’s righteousness and holiness in the human race because he loves as God loves and thus never sinned though tempted by evil just like other human beings. There is no other human being that can claim that honor.
To support my point those who receive and live according to the Spirit are called sons of God and according to scripture no one living by the spirit will sin even when tempted by evil. In other words to sin you must stop living by the spirit even if you stop temporarily. This is true though in the past all human beings but Jesus have sinned.
Edited because I previously posted another post to this thread instead of the apropriate thread and I did not want to waste space.
Hi Kerwin:He is the “Only person who was ever conceived by the Holy Ghost in the womb of a woman” and also, he is the “only person who can claim to be God's Christ”. In his position as God's Christ, he had the authority to forgive sins, but he did not let his position of authority go to his head, but he humbled himself and became like just like any one of us in this world subjected to all the temptations in the world. He is the only man who can claim to have obeyed God without sin even unto death, and he is the only one who can claim to be my master, and so, is that extra-ordinary or not?
We also who are born again as we are led by the Spirit of God can overcome sin as we learn to apply the Word of God, the commandments that have come from God through him, but no, we will make mistakes, and so, without the blood to wash our sins away when we fall short of perfect obedience we could not over come. The scripture to which you refer in 1 John which states that those who are born of him cannot sin means that we cannot practice sin wilfully.
This is what the scripture states about some in this last day:
Quote Daniel 11:35
And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed.Quote # Revelation 7:14
And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.# Revelation 12:11
And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the deathLove in Christ,
MartyQuote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 02 2010,04:18) Quote (942767 @ Aug. 01 2010,14:04) By the authority that God had given him as His Son and His Christ, he was in the “form of God”, but he did not let this “go to his head”. The scripture states that “he made himself not reputation”, but became like us in every way allowing himself to be tempted in every way in order that he might overcome sin, and so,
Hi Marty,I wish at least one of you guys would just answer to the scripture. The last five words say he WAS MADE in human likeness. The Greek word used is “ginomai”, which is the root of the “genes” part of “monogenes”. And “monogenes” means “only begotten”.
So it basically says that he WAS in the form or nature of God, but emptied himself to be BEGOTTEN in human likeness.
This is one clear example of what the passage COULD ACTUALLY MEAN. No matter how you slice and dice the Greek words, you cannot escape the fact that it COULD ACTUALLY MEAN what I've just posted.
So what it all boils down to for you guys is because you DON'T WANT IT TO MEAN THIS for your own selfish reasons of Christ having to be exactly like us, you won't even entertain the POSSIBILITY THAT IT COULD MEAN THIS.
And that's nothing but denial, considering the other scriptures that support this very meaning of Phil 2.
One question to all of you: IS THERE ANY SCRIPTURAL REASON THAT THE GREEK WORDS COULD NOT POSSIBLY MEAN WHAT I UNDERSTAND THEM TO MEAN? YES OR NO.
I am very aware that they also could have a different meaning, and I've called this thread a stalemate in an effort to move on to some of the many other scriptures that support my understanding. But you won't let this one go. So now I ask for each and every one of you for your honesty. Could the Greek words POSSIBLY mean my understanding of Phil 2? If not, show why it is IMPOSSIBLE.
mike
No, Mike, you can try to make this mean that but it cannot possibly mean that because Jesus was concieved of the Holy Ghost.How can this possibly mean that he gave the permission to be Begotten of human flesh?
And so, that is my answer to your question.
No, no no. Period.
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (942767 @ Aug. 05 2010,14:31) No, Mike, you can try to make this mean that but it cannot possibly mean that because Jesus was concieved of the Holy Ghost. How can this possibly mean that he gave the permission to be Begotten of human flesh?
And so, that is my answer to your question.
No, no no. Period.
Let me get this straight Marty,God, who could raise children of Abraham from rocks, could not have begotten a Son before the ages, then used His holy spirit to impregnate Mary with the “essence” of that Son so he could be born as a man?
Is that what you're saying…….that this thing would be impossible for God to do?
mike
Hey Marty,
Can you answer this question DIRECTLY for me?
Since you assert that Jesus was already on earth in human form while “being in the form of God”, how is it that he emptied himself and was made in the likeness of a human being?
Do you hear what I'm yelling? He was begotten in the form of a human being after he emptied himself. How is that possible if he already WAS a human being at the time?
Thanks in advance,
mikeAlso, Mike, as I have already stated, and Barley also stated, the scripture states: “being in the form of God”, that is present tense, and also, if this is to mean that “he existed in the form of God prior to being born of human flesh”, how is that to be an example to us of humility for me to follow as his disciple?
The Apostle Paul was teaching the church about humility, and Jesus is our example. The scripture states: “let this mind be in you which also was in Christ Jesus”. When was he Christ Jesus, Mike?
Also, if you need help with the Greek word, maybe Jack or Kieth can help, since they are the Greek scholars. I don't believe that I need the Greek to figure out what the Apostle Paul meant by this scripture.
Love in Christ,
MartyMarty,
I agree with almost everything you stated in your first paragraph as I actually believe I previously stated it myself. The exception is when you state that Jesus is the only one engendered in his mother’s womb by the Spirit of God. The Greek word translated “conceived “can be translated to several English words but I feel “engendered” fits the context of Matthew 1:20 best. Anyways my objection is rather a technicality and is that since everyone is created by God, the Spirit of God can be said to have engendered us all. That is not what you meant since I believe that you meant a miraculous conception that did not involve the desires of a human being. That certainly narrows the field since the only other two exceptions I am aware of are Adam and Eve. You can narrow that farther by insisting location is important but that would be a very weak point. Looking at that and given you the point that Jesus’ formation is extra-ordinary I suppose you can say he is extra-ordinary in the same sense that a hero or anyone that has had an extra-ordinary event happen to them is extra-ordinary.
We will make mistakes, given you mean sin and not accidents, is an untrue statement. Scripture clearly states “if we sin” which means we either commit a sin or we do not commit a sin, 1 John 2:1. Scripture would have stated “when” if it was certain we would sin.
You speak of practicing sin willfully but from what I understand according to Jesus all sins are willful as they come from the heart, Matthew 15:18-20. I did find where the NIV translated the Hebrew word “zed” to “willful” in speaking of sins but I believe the KJV “presumptuous” is a better fit for the context, Psalms 19:13.
Just in case you are speaking of accidents which all men do commit I will address that issue. Human beings have limits and due to these limits unintended occur as a result of our actions. Sometimes those actions are sinful but not always. The determining factor is the desires of our heart. If we intend good and the desires of our heart were righteous then the accident even if it harms someone is not a sin and therefore does not transgress the law of love your neighbor as yourself. Of course you can sin in response to an accident that was not caused by a sin as Satan is always setting his snares for the unwary and the corrupt.
I am not addressing knowingly and unknowingly sinning at this time though you perhaps were calling knowingly sinning, willfully sinning.
I am going to address the idea of our sins being cleansed by the blood of the Anointed. It is because of that blood we enter the new covenant that is sealed with that blood, Hebrews 9:11-28. The gift of the new covenant is the spirit of righteousness, Acts 2:38, and if we live by that spirit we will not sin and thus obey all God commands, Galatians 5:16. God told us through Ezekiel that those who turned from their life of sinning to obey all his commands would be forgiven all the sins they committed beforehand, Ezekiel 18:21-22, and God does not lie. So in conclusion Jesus’ blood does cure us of giving into temptation and thus does wash our sins away, Hebrews 9:14, which leads to forgiveness of the sins that occurred beforehand, Romans 3:25.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 04 2010,07:54) Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Aug. 02 2010,20:41) Mike,
I think it means he existed before flesh.
That was the topic right? nothing further?
Hi Dennison,And I agree. Do you have any supporting words WHY you think what you think?
It's okay if you don't.
mike
wow we agree on something, thats Great. =)Scriptures are clear.
LET me state this right, im not willing to argue this at all, if you cannot believe this, than i have really nothing to say to you about it, than to Ask God.
so honestly any more than that i have nothing to really say, because i mean its pointless to argue.
How can you not believe that Jesus existed before flesh, and read the bible.
I dont know.
To be honest, from here i have nothing to really say, i havent read the arguements i have seen here. im going to take a peek later, and probably respond.
Much love,
Quote (942767 @ Aug. 05 2010,09:00) Also, Mike, as I have already stated, and Barley also stated, the scripture states: “being in the form of God”, that is present tense, and also, if this is to mean that “he existed in the form of God prior to being born of human flesh”, how is that to be an example to us of humility for me to follow as his disciple? The Apostle Paul was teaching the church about humility, and Jesus is our example. The scripture states: “let this mind be in you which also was in Christ Jesus”. When was he Christ Jesus, Mike?
Also, if you need help with the Greek word, maybe Jack or Kieth can help, since they are the Greek scholars. I don't believe that I need the Greek to figure out what the Apostle Paul meant by this scripture.
Love in Christ,
Marty
Hi Numbers/marty,It seems that your debating with Mike, I just wanted to be nosy and jump in and make an unoffical tag team.
How can you agrue present tense and have any sense Numbers?
look Numbers, if thats true than this verse is also present tense7But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.So his obediance to the cross is also present tense?
how do you presently make no reputation?
obviously this is all past tense, at any tense of sense.You Said:
Quote how is that to be an example to us of humility for me to follow as his disciple?
IT was not part of his example of humility, but part of the discription of Christ's Gospel. This is about who Christ is period.
he talked about the beginning of Christ, the middle and the End which results in this verse.11And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
thats the conclusion.5Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God
When Paul mentioned WHO-WHOM, it was a manner of describing facts about Jesus, not about humility.
The mind of what is in Christ, is the gospel, the Word. Humility is part of that, not the whole picture.Just like this for example, “We should strive to be like the president WHOM grew up in a poor neighborhood and no matter what came his way, he worked hard to become the president.”
Quote (942767 @ Aug. 05 2010,15:00) Also, Mike, as I have already stated, and Barley also stated, the scripture states: “being in the form of God”, that is present tense, and also, if this is to mean that “he existed in the form of God prior to being born of human flesh”, how is that to be an example to us of humility for me to follow as his disciple?
Hi Marty,Thank you for “kind of” answering the bolded question. I was actually more concerned with what you thought about the last part, “was begotten in the likeness of a human being”.
But we can start here. You, barley and sometimes Gene think the “being” is referring to “after Jesus was raised”. If that is the case, your first problem is the next few words.
Who, being in the form of God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
To keep the tense flowing, the “did” will have to be “does”. Do you see what I mean? Let me paraphrase it:
Jesus, who is now in the form of God DOES not consider equality with God something to be grasped.
Can you see the two thoughts are related? The “considering equality” is directly related to the fact he “was/is in the form of God”. They are linked together to form one thought.
The sole statement “Jesus didn't consider equality with God something to be grasped” would be “out of nowhere” for Paul to say if not linked with the first part about being in the form of God. So they are either both past tense, or both present tense. And these first two thoughts actually link to the rest of the past tense passage, but we can just keep it to verse 6 for now.
So, could the “existing” actually mean “existed” in the Greek? Sure, and I'll show you that right after I point out this next fun fact.
The Greek word rendered “existing” and “being” actually has “beginning” as it's first definition.
huparcho 1) to begin below, to make a beginning 1a) to begin 2) to come forth, hence to be there, be ready, be at hand 3) to beSo, if we kept that word in the present tense, it would make sense as, “Who, beginning in the form of God………emptied himself……..and was made in the likeness of a human being.” Hmmmm…..that's how it probably should be translated – then there wouldn't even be any non-preexisters.
But here's the info on the present tense “existing” or “being”:
5774 Tense – Present
The present tense represents a simple statement of fact or reality viewed as occurring in actual time. In most cases this corresponds directly with the English present tense. Some phrases which might be rendered as past tense in English will often occur in the present tense in Greek. These are termed “historical presents,” and such occurrences dramatize the event described as if the reader were there watching the event occur. Some English translations render such historical presents in the English past tense, while others permit the tense to remain in the present.I'll await your response.
Btw, you saying this……..
if this is to mean that “he existed in the form of God prior to being born of human flesh”, how is that to be an example to us of humility for me to follow as his disciple?
…….does not in any way refute what the scripture actually says. It just voices your reason as to why you want the scripture to say something different than it does.
peace and love,
mikeQuote (SimplyForgiven @ Aug. 05 2010,18:26) It seems that your debating with Mike,
No, no, no……..by all means, speak out. This is not a debate thread, and Irene and I are outnumbered. We need you! Good logical points, btw.
mike
Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 05 2010,16:53) Marty, I agree with almost everything you stated in your first paragraph as I actually believe I previously stated it myself. The exception is when you state that Jesus is the only one engendered in his mother’s womb by the Spirit of God. The Greek word translated “conceived “can be translated to several English words but I feel “engendered” fits the context of Matthew 1:20 best. Anyways my objection is rather a technicality and is that since everyone is created by God, the Spirit of God can be said to have engendered us all. That is not what you meant since I believe that you meant a miraculous conception that did not involve the desires of a human being. That certainly narrows the field since the only other two exceptions I am aware of are Adam and Eve. You can narrow that farther by insisting location is important but that would be a very weak point. Looking at that and given you the point that Jesus’ formation is extra-ordinary I suppose you can say he is extra-ordinary in the same sense that a hero or anyone that has had an extra-ordinary event happen to them is extra-ordinary.
We will make mistakes, given you mean sin and not accidents, is an untrue statement. Scripture clearly states “if we sin” which means we either commit a sin or we do not commit a sin, 1 John 2:1. Scripture would have stated “when” if it was certain we would sin.
You speak of practicing sin willfully but from what I understand according to Jesus all sins are willful as they come from the heart, Matthew 15:18-20. I did find where the NIV translated the Hebrew word “zed” to “willful” in speaking of sins but I believe the KJV “presumptuous” is a better fit for the context, Psalms 19:13.
Just in case you are speaking of accidents which all men do commit I will address that issue. Human beings have limits and due to these limits unintended occur as a result of our actions. Sometimes those actions are sinful but not always. The determining factor is the desires of our heart. If we intend good and the desires of our heart were righteous then the accident even if it harms someone is not a sin and therefore does not transgress the law of love your neighbor as yourself. Of course you can sin in response to an accident that was not caused by a sin as Satan is always setting his snares for the unwary and the corrupt.
I am not addressing knowingly and unknowingly sinning at this time though you perhaps were calling knowingly sinning, willfully sinning.
I am going to address the idea of our sins being cleansed by the blood of the Anointed. It is because of that blood we enter the new covenant that is sealed with that blood, Hebrews 9:11-28. The gift of the new covenant is the spirit of righteousness, Acts 2:38, and if we live by that spirit we will not sin and thus obey all God commands, Galatians 5:16. God told us through Ezekiel that those who turned from their life of sinning to obey all his commands would be forgiven all the sins they committed beforehand, Ezekiel 18:21-22, and God does not lie. So in conclusion Jesus’ blood does cure us of giving into temptation and thus does wash our sins away, Hebrews 9:14, which leads to forgiveness of the sins that occurred beforehand, Romans 3:25.
Hi Kerwin:What does the following scripture mean to you in light of your discussion?
John 3:16 states: “For Gode so loved the world, that he gave HIS ONLY BEGOTTEN SON”
Jesus body is “God's own flesh and blood”. We who are born again have been baptized into this body by the Holy Spirit of God. We are members of that body by the Spirit of adoption.
Jesus stated that “out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, adultries, fornications etc, but he did not address by this willful or not wilfull sin. There is some sin that is pre-meditated, and there may be a sin that is committed in a moment of anger.
But what I said is that a born again Christian does not “practice sin wilfully”, but it is possible for a Christian to sin. If not, what is the reason for the Lord's instruction in the following scriptures?
Quote 15Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. 16But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.
17And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican
Or why would he say to the Apostle Peter that we must forgive 70X7?
There is a difference between being tempted and committing a sin and practicing sin wilfully. The consequence of sinning wilfulluy would be the following:
Quote Hebrews 10:26For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
28He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
The blood does not cure us from temptation to sin, it washes our sin away when we do sin when we repent, and keeps us in the state of holiness.
I hope that I have addressed your questions.
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (SimplyForgiven @ Aug. 05 2010,18:26) Quote (942767 @ Aug. 05 2010,09:00) Also, Mike, as I have already stated, and Barley also stated, the scripture states: “being in the form of God”, that is present tense, and also, if this is to mean that “he existed in the form of God prior to being born of human flesh”, how is that to be an example to us of humility for me to follow as his disciple? The Apostle Paul was teaching the church about humility, and Jesus is our example. The scripture states: “let this mind be in you which also was in Christ Jesus”. When was he Christ Jesus, Mike?
Also, if you need help with the Greek word, maybe Jack or Kieth can help, since they are the Greek scholars. I don't believe that I need the Greek to figure out what the Apostle Paul meant by this scripture.
Love in Christ,
Marty
Hi Numbers/marty,It seems that your debating with Mike, I just wanted to be nosy and jump in and make an unoffical tag team.
How can you agrue present tense and have any sense Numbers?
look Numbers, if thats true than this verse is also present tense7But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.So his obediance to the cross is also present tense?
how do you presently make no reputation?
obviously this is all past tense, at any tense of sense.You Said:
Quote how is that to be an example to us of humility for me to follow as his disciple?
IT was not part of his example of humility, but part of the discription of Christ's Gospel. This is about who Christ is period.
he talked about the beginning of Christ, the middle and the End which results in this verse.11And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
thats the conclusion.5Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God
When Paul mentioned WHO-WHOM, it was a manner of describing facts about Jesus, not about humility.
The mind of what is in Christ, is the gospel, the Word. Humility is part of that, not the whole picture.Just like this for example, “We should strive to be like the president WHOM grew up in a poor neighborhood and no matter what came his way, he worked hard to become the president.”
Hi SF:First of all, I am not debating anyone. Mike asked me a question, and I have given him my understanding, and I am not debating you either, but I will also give you my understanding.
Present tense from the standpoint of the Apostle referring to the ministry of Jesus while he was here on earth.
And I can't see how you can say that the point of these scriptures was not that the Apostle Paul was teaching the church of humility. Of course, there is much more to the gospel or the example of Christ to born again believers. We as born again believers are supposed to be following in his footsteps.
However, in these particular scriptures the Apostle Paul was teaching the church about humility.
Quote Phil2:3Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; butin lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves. 4Look not every man on his own things, but every man also on the things of others.
5Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:(Also, please don't ignore this question. When was he Christ Jesus? This most definitely identifies what follows in the verses following to mean his ministry on earth)
6Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 05 2010,14:51) Hey Marty, Can you answer this question DIRECTLY for me?
Since you assert that Jesus was already on earth in human form while “being in the form of God”, how is it that he emptied himself and was made in the likeness of a human being?
Do you hear what I'm yelling? He was begotten in the form of a human being after he emptied himself. How is that possible if he already WAS a human being at the time?
Thanks in advance,
mike
Hi Mike:I have already answered this, and so, I don't see any point in going over the same thing again, and to answer your other post prior to this one, God can do anything that He chooses, but He will not do anything contrary to His Word.
Oh, I know, “All things are possible to those who believe”, and so, go on believing what you will, Mike, but there is no scripture to support what you are indicating “that Jesus submitted himself to be begotten of human flesh”.
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (942767 @ Aug. 06 2010,08:26) Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Aug. 05 2010,18:26) Quote (942767 @ Aug. 05 2010,09:00) Also, Mike, as I have already stated, and Barley also stated, the scripture states: “being in the form of God”, that is present tense, and also, if this is to mean that “he existed in the form of God prior to being born of human flesh”, how is that to be an example to us of humility for me to follow as his disciple? The Apostle Paul was teaching the church about humility, and Jesus is our example. The scripture states: “let this mind be in you which also was in Christ Jesus”. When was he Christ Jesus, Mike?
Also, if you need help with the Greek word, maybe Jack or Kieth can help, since they are the Greek scholars. I don't believe that I need the Greek to figure out what the Apostle Paul meant by this scripture.
Love in Christ,
Marty
Hi Numbers/marty,It seems that your debating with Mike, I just wanted to be nosy and jump in and make an unoffical tag team.
How can you agrue present tense and have any sense Numbers?
look Numbers, if thats true than this verse is also present tense7But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.So his obediance to the cross is also present tense?
how do you presently make no reputation?
obviously this is all past tense, at any tense of sense.You Said:
Quote how is that to be an example to us of humility for me to follow as his disciple?
IT was not part of his example of humility, but part of the discription of Christ's Gospel. This is about who Christ is period.
he talked about the beginning of Christ, the middle and the End which results in this verse.11And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
thats the conclusion.5Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God
When Paul mentioned WHO-WHOM, it was a manner of describing facts about Jesus, not about humility.
The mind of what is in Christ, is the gospel, the Word. Humility is part of that, not the whole picture.Just like this for example, “We should strive to be like the president WHOM grew up in a poor neighborhood and no matter what came his way, he worked hard to become the president.”
Hi SF:First of all, I am not debating anyone. Mike asked me a question, and I have given him my understanding, and I am not debating you either, but I will also give you my understanding.
Present tense from the standpoint of the Apostle referring to the ministry of Jesus while he was here on earth.
And I can't see how you can say that the point of these scriptures was not that the Apostle Paul was teaching the church of humility. Of course, there is much more to the gospel or the example of Christ to born again believers. We as born again believers are supposed to be following in his footsteps.
However, in these particular scriptures the Apostle Paul was teaching the church about humility.
Quote Phil2:3Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; butin lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves. 4Look not every man on his own things, but every man also on the things of others.
5Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:(Also, please don't ignore this question. When was he Christ Jesus? This most definitely identifies what follows in the verses following to mean his ministry on earth)
6Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
Love in Christ,
Marty
Hi Numbers,Debating- discussing, whatever its the same thing.
You make a point, than you refute it, blah blah blah, the same.
How can you mention the standpoint of the Apostle, are you THE Apostle Paul? Who said it was here on earth?Show me where in this passage says the word humility? or earth?
Im saying that the teachings of being Christlike INCLUDES humility, that the center of his teachings is not humility, its an attribute that is part of his character but not his only characteristic.
I can disprove your philoshpy easily.
verse one and two of philipians 2 talk about what? THE SAME ACCORD.
AN AGREEMENT BETWEEN ONE AND ANOTHER.lets repeats its very clear.
until verse 3 being ” lowliness of mind ” (not humility) is expressed.
verse 4? let a man not only worry about his things but the things of others.
obviously the first 4 verses of this scripture is not TALKING ABOUT HUMILITY.
but talking about being CHRISTLIKE.
dont desire to be humble, desire to be christlike WHO IS HUMBLE.
humility is the result of following christ.
this is why he said let this MIND (not humility, not lowliness of mind) be in you, which was the same mind that was in Christ.
WHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
WHOMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM
which continued in giving historical FACTS about Jesus and his testimony which is the GOSPEL.the whole intent of Paul message was this
1:27Only let your conversation be as it becometh the gospel of Christ: that whether I come and see you, or else be absent, I may hear of your affairs, that ye stand fast in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel;
BEING ONE! BEING ON ONE ACCORD! HUMBLING TO EACHOTHER!
This is what happens when you SKIP scriptures because you forget the actual intent and context of the scriptures.
To answer your Question:
Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.
Ill let the scriptures end your nonsense.answer this question do you follow Christ Jesus?
If so?
If he is presently christ Jesus, does that also mean he was christ Jesus when he was flesh?
If so?
Who is to say he wasnt before,
Did his personality change in any sense before?Isnt it true that Christ Jesus is the creator of this world according to Collossians?
Thats clear.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 06 2010,07:44) Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Aug. 05 2010,18:26) It seems that your debating with Mike,
No, no, no……..by all means, speak out. This is not a debate thread, and Irene and I are outnumbered. We need you! Good logical points, btw.
mike
Hey mike,I saw, im like whats going on in here…my gosh…
Thank you! same to you.
D
Marty,
Jesus’ spirit is directly of heaven and of God and thus Jesus is God’s Son. Through entering the new covenant those that believe receive and live by the same spirit which comes through Jesus are declared to be son’s of God. It is the spirit of righteousness that makes one a son of God, Romans 8:15 & Galatians 4:6, though the children of Israel were credited with that status, Deuteronomy 14:1, even though no human being has the spirit outside the new covenant, Jeremiah 31:33. Jesus being the mediator is the only exception and I am not sure you can say that he was ever outside the new covenant.
It seems you and I are going by different definition of willful since I do not regard “premeditated” as a synonym of “willful”. My definition is a sin is willful when it is done on purpose even if it is not planned in advance. A sin that is not willful is one done without intent and I do not see how you can choose to give into temptation without intending to. I can see one giving into sin without knowing they are but that is not the same thing as not intending. The spirit reveals all truths. In addition one can know they are giving into sin but give into sin because their will and/or faith are weak. In the former case either they do not have the spirit of the Anointed or they are attempting to achieve by human effort what can only be done by the spirit and the latter case speaks for itself.
You are correct that that the goal of those who seek God is to be like him in true righteousness and holiness and thus they will not premeditate a sin unless they fall away from him. It is also true that a follower of the Anointed may commit a sin showing they are not yet completely refined. In that case they must repent and confess their sins to God so that he can cleanse them of the desire to give into temptation, 1 John 1:9, even though the evil one will still tempt them as he tempted Jesus.
Thanks for mentioning Hebrews 10:26-29 as I was looking for where willful sins were spoken of in scripture yesterday and did not notice that passage. The Greek word translated into “willful” in verse 26 of the KJV is only used one other place in the New Testament and that is in 1 Peter 5:2. It is used there in opposition to the word “constraint”. “Constraint” according to the New King James Version is a synonym of “compulsion” as the English language has changed over time.
My problem with the concept of sinning by compulsion is that the Holy Spirit is the power of God to overcome sin and God is not weaker than an irresistible persistent desire to sin. Of course if you regard such a sin as a lack of maturity in the Anointed then it is only a matter of growing in faith and so getting the power of God to work for you.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 05 2010,11:54) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 05 2010,02:54) Mike………..Paul was talking about a (existence of a past event) when Jesus existed on earth before his assent He existed in the (form or nature ) of God because God was (IN) Him , but he did not try to be equal with Him because he was a man and not a GOD and He Know that even though GOD was (IN) HIM. So he took the position as a Servant because that what he was, He did not seek an equality with GOD and thereby (ROBBING) GOD of his Glory, Just as it says “I HAVE GLORIFIED (YOU) ON THE EARTH” < NOT HIMSELF. When are you going to accept these things, you are holding on tho a preconceived Ideology fostered by preexistences and is not scripturally factual. You trying it use this as some proof text is in error brother.
You have lost this one now go on the the next text to support your beliefs in Jesus preexistence brother.
peace and love to you and yours Mike…………………………..gene
Here Gene,Let me make it REALLY clear what I have been asking and what you guys can't answer.
Since you assert that Jesus was already on earth in human form while “being in the form of God”, how is it that he emptied himself and was made in the likeness of a human being?
Do you hear what I'm yelling? He was “begotten” in the form of a human being after he emptied himself. How is that possible if he already WAS a human being at the time?
Who, beginning in the form of God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, but emptied himself, and took on the form of a slave, and was begotten in the likeness of a human being.”
Now every word I used above is a valid definition of the actual Greek word used. Knowing this, please answer my second question DIRECTLY.
IS THERE ANY SCRIPTURAL REASON THAT THE GREEK WORDS COULD NOT POSSIBLY MEAN WHAT I UNDERSTAND THEM TO MEAN? YES OR NO. If the answer is “NO”, please tell me why it is IMPOSSIBLE.
Is there any scripture that tells you directly that MY UNDERSTANDING of what Phil 2 means is IMPOSSIBLE? Please answer this Gene! I need to either see the scripture that makes my understanding IMPOSSIBLE, or I need you to acknowledge that the words COULD ACTUALLY MEAN WHAT I THINK THEY DO.
ONE OR THE OTHER PLEASE. IF YOU CANNOT DIRECTLY ANSWER THE QUESTIONS, DON'T BOTHER POSTING YOUR OPINIONS TO ME. EITHER ANSWER THE QUESTIONS I'VE ASKED, OR DON'T POST TO ME AT ALL.
You see Gene, I completely understood your first flawed opinion that Paul was saying Jesus NOW exists in the form of God. But you realized that one didn't add up with the rest of the scripture, so you dropped it.
And I also completely understand your assertion that Paul was saying Jesus could have “lorded it over” people that he was God's “special” Son, but chose not to. That one is actually plausible if you reach far enough and use the exact combination of definitions of the Greek words to make it fit. But it is a FAR REACH to come to that understanding based on those Greek words; especially when you have to find a way to do away with the “was made in the likeness of a human being” part.
On the other hand, my blue translation above lists actual definitions of the Greek words in that passage, and it is not a reach at all to see it says Jesus pre-existed. And compared with the other 15 or so scriptures that support this fact, it is a no-brainer for any intelligent person.
So again, I will ask you and any other non-preexister to show me a scripture that makes it very plain that Jesus ABSOLUTELY did not pre-exist his flesh, or acknowledge that my understanding of Phil 2 is at least “viable”.
mike
Mikeboll64,You don't get, do you?
It is funny.
you have not figured out, and/or
you do not care to figure out.
you are beating a dead horse.
Why would anyone want to answer such an question?
You have ignored and left out the very answer that you seek.
You have left out nine essential words that answer your own question.
And they are:
“and took upon him the form of a servant”
count them. nine. Why do you ignore these words?
Why do you think they are between, “but made himself of no reputation” and “was made in the likeness of men”?
The reason that they are there is because God wanted them there.
For you to ignore them is foolish. It is unbridled ego.
I wish I could be more loving and gentle and more kind with you, but you would miss it and ignore it. Just like you miss the context and ignore those nine words.
They do not support your preconceived notion, therefore you choose to delete them.
The reason is clear. You ignore these words because you ignore the context of these verses.
Lowliness of mind,
humility,
let nothing be done through strife or vainglory,
he humbled himself and became obedient unto death,
I understand your problem, because I've been there.
See Proverbs 15:33, “The fear of the Lord is the instruction of wisdom; and before honor is humility.”
Acts 20:19, “Serving the Lord with all humility of mind….”
Colossians 3:12, “Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;”
Matthew 23:12, “And whosoever shall exalt himself, shall be abased, and he that humble himself shall be exalted.”
You think you have something on us?
You keep repeating:
Since you assert that Jesus was already on earth in human form while “being in the form of God”, how is it that he emptied himself and was made in the likeness of a human being?
You need to learn to listen, out of humility to God and His words.
Humble yourself and God will exalt you,
Exalt yourself and you shall be humbled.
I Peter 5:6, “Humble yourself under the mighty hand of God, that He may exalt you in due time”
barley
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