Philippians 2.5-7

[gollamudi]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 25 2008,02:58)

Quote (t8 @ June 24 2008,23:42) Equality? Two humans could be considered as equal in nature but not in rank or position. e.g., A citizen of the USA and the president of the USA are both human, but not equal in national authority. We even hear talk about equality among people, but some people obtain a better position even though they are still human. If Jesus existed in the form of God or possessed/partook of God's nature, then he would be equal to God in that they both have divine nature, but certainly not in position or rank as scripture is clear that God is greater than his son. God is no1, he is the only one who has existed forever. God is the Father and Jesus is only considered as a father in the sense that Abraham is a father. But God is the Father of all (good) and the Father of all (good) spirits. All good things come down from the Father of lights and Jesus even said “why call me good? Only God is good”. I believe what Jesus said. That all good comes from his Father who is God and who am I to argue with Jesus? t8 Quote (t8 @ June 24 2008,23:42) If Jesus existed in the form of God or possessed/partook of God's nature, then he would be equal to God in that they both have divine nature, but certainly not in position or rank as scripture is clear that God is greater than his son. So then I suppose that we are equal to God because we have “partaken” of his divine nature? Can you possibly give us some scripture that says Yeshua “partook of God's nature”? Is there a scripture preincarnation or Philipians 2 that says the Father is greater than Yeshua? When did God form Yeshua to be equal to him in nature? Can God begat a god equal to him in nature? There is a lot more inference here than you claim the Trinitarian view has. How can any being be equal to God and not be God?

Hi WJ,
Those are right questions to T8. He is almost going in line with historical Arians who believe Jesus as demi-god, a spirit being in nature of God. Nick also believes this by quoting Phil 2:6.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (gollamudi @ June 25 2008,03:12)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 25 2008,02:58) Quote (t8 @ June 24 2008,23:42) Equality? Two humans could be considered as equal in nature but not in rank or position. e.g., A citizen of the USA and the president of the USA are both human, but not equal in national authority. We even hear talk about equality among people, but some people obtain a better position even though they are still human. If Jesus existed in the form of God or possessed/partook of God's nature, then he would be equal to God in that they both have divine nature, but certainly not in position or rank as scripture is clear that God is greater than his son. God is no1, he is the only one who has existed forever. God is the Father and Jesus is only considered as a father in the sense that Abraham is a father. But God is the Father of all (good) and the Father of all (good) spirits. All good things come down from the Father of lights and Jesus even said “why call me good? Only God is good”. I believe what Jesus said. That all good comes from his Father who is God and who am I to argue with Jesus? t8 Quote (t8 @ June 24 2008,23:42) If Jesus existed in the form of God or possessed/partook of God's nature, then he would be equal to God in that they both have divine nature, but certainly not in position or rank as scripture is clear that God is greater than his son. So then I suppose that we are equal to God because we have “partaken” of his divine nature? Can you possibly give us some scripture that says Yeshua “partook of God's nature”? Is there a scripture preincarnation or Philipians 2 that says the Father is greater than Yeshua? When did God form Yeshua to be equal to him in nature? Can God begat a god equal to him in nature? There is a lot more inference here than you claim the Trinitarian view has. How can any being be equal to God and not be God? Hi WJ, Those are right questions to T8. He is almost going in line with historical Arians who believe Jesus as demi-god, a spirit being in nature of God. Nick also believes this by quoting Phil 2:6.

GM

HMMM!

demi-god

1 : a mythological being with more power than a mortal but less than a god
2 : a person so outstanding as to seem to approach the divine
Source.

You may have a point there.

Since he will not admit Yeshua is “a god”.

[NickHassan]

Hi GM,
What do you have to fear from reading and believing scripture as written?

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 25 2008,06:48)

Hi GM, What do you have to fear from reading and believing scripture as written?

NH

Fear? What you think because I believe there is only One divine being and  “no other” that I am afraid to believe in Polytheism?

Is that what you are getting at?

Really NH, if you believe in other gods then you should fear.

Isa 44:6
Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

Was a preexisting begotten god beside him?

Isa 44:8
Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.

Was a born god beside him? And what about “there is no God I know not any.”

Isa 45:5
I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:

No born god here.

Isa 45:14
… Surely God is in thee; and there is none else, there is no God.

Needs no comment.

Jer 2:11
Hath a nation changed their gods, which are yet no gods? but my people have changed their glory for that which doth not profit.[/quote]

Agrees with Paul that they are no gods at all.

They changed their gods which are yet no gods.

YHWH also says…

And in all things that I have said unto you be circumspect: and make no mention of the name of other gods, neither let it be heard out of thy mouth. Ex 23:13

[NickHassan]

Hi WJ,
No I believe you may have embraced it suggesting we should worship also the Son of God
Psalm 136:2
O give thanks unto the God of gods: for his mercy endureth for ever.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 25 2008,09:18)

Hi WJ, No I believe you may have embraced it suggesting we should worship also the Son of God Psalm 136:2 O give thanks unto the God of gods: for his mercy endureth for ever.

NH

So if you interpret that scripture to mean that God has other gods then you have a contradiction.

God is God of gods because he alone is god.

Jer 2:11
Hath a nation changed their gods, which are yet no gods? but my people have changed their glory for that which doth not profit.

This agrees with Paul that says they are not gods at all.

So then, about eating food sacrificed to idols: We know that an idol is nothing at all in the world and that there is no God but one.
For even if there are so‑called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”), 1 Cor 8:4,5

They changed their gods which are yet no gods.

YHWH also says…

And in all things that I have said unto you be circumspect: and make no mention of the name of other gods, neither let it be heard out of thy mouth. Ex 23:13

Why do you keep insisting there are other gods.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 25 2008,09:18)

Hi WJ, No I believe you may have embraced it suggesting we should worship also the Son of God Psalm 136:2 O give thanks unto the God of gods: for his mercy endureth for ever.

NH

Scriptures show the Son being worshipped!

[NickHassan]

Hi WJ,
Is that enough to make a doctrine?

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 25 2008,09:53)

Hi WJ, Is that enough to make a doctrine?

NH

Apparently not for you.

In fact while you are holding onto your doctrine I imagine you will be a spectator in heaven while all of creation worships him and gives him glory and honour due his name.

Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing. And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever. Rev 5:12, 13

[NickHassan]

Hi WJ,
Not enough for Jesus either.
We follow him.

[gollamudi]

Hi Nick,
Angels will worship Jesus and we have to worship Jesus as Son of God. Don't you worship the king of kings and Lord of Lords. “Kiss the son otherwise he will be angry”
Please take care
Adam

[NickHassan]

Hi GM,

Indeed all will bend the knee to their appointed master and Lord.

Heb1
6And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship[4352] him.

Number 4352
Transliteration:
proskuneo {pros-koo-neh'-o}
Word Origin:
from 4314 and a probable derivative of 2965 (meaning to kiss, like a dog licking his master's hand)
TDNT:
6:758,948
Part of Speech:
verb
Usage in the KJV:
worship 60

Total: 60
Definition:
to kiss the hand to (towards) one, in token of reverence
among the Orientals, esp. the Persians, to fall upon the knees and touch the ground with the forehead as an expression of profound reverence
in the NT by kneeling or prostration to do homage (to one) or make obeisance, whether in order to express respect or to make supplication
used of homage shown to men and beings of superior rank
to the Jewish high priests
to God
to Christ
to heavenly beings
to demons
1
Ps2
10Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth.

11Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling.

12Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.

But that is not the worship in spirit and truth towards God our master Jesus taught us about is it?

[Not3in1]

Nick you have a valid point.

We serve a jealous God!  He will not give his glory to another (including Jesus).

Jesus deserves honor and glory as being the only begotten Son.  But the Father alone is the one to be praised as the Most high God!

[Worshipping Jesus]

Hi all

What scriptures do show us is this…

And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands; Rev 5:11

Do you see Yeshua listed here with the rest around the throne?

No here is what you see…

Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing. And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever. And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever. Rev 5:12, 13

Do you not say “worthy are you Yeshua, to recieve glory and honour and power and strength and blessing and wisdom”?

If this is not worship but simply honour, would you say this to any other being besides the Father, like the Angels or men or Kings or Lords or Apostles or Prophets?

Could you give this kind of worship to any other?

And why would Yeshua be getting this kind of worship at the same time the Father is being worshipped with the very same words?

[GeneBalthrop]

WJ….> I think you might be tweaking that Just a little It doesn't really say they were worshiping the Lamb specifically but i could see how you might see it that way. There is a scripture that says that every knee should bow to Jesus, but if you check it out it says (MAY) it's kind of inferring if you do bow to Jesus, it must be to the Glory of God the Father. This could be whats going on in the scripture you quoted also.

imo………gene

[gollamudi]

Amen to that post brother WJ. God demands honour and reverence through His Son Jesus for the glory of God the Father. Because Son is only tangible in divinity whom we can see and feel. If you honour the Son you also honour the Father.

[Not3in1]

David,

The conversation regarding Philippians is better suited to this thread – don't you think? Let's discuss it here instead of the Preexistence thread.

I'll respond here later this evening to your queries of this scripture.

Thanks,
Mandy

[Not3in1]

Quote (942767 @ June 04 2007,10:42)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 04 2007,09:57) Quote (942767 @ June 04 2007,08:36) Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 04 2007,08:22) Quote (942767 @ June 03 2007,00:53) Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 02 2007,22:23) Quote (942767 @ June 02 2007,16:26) Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 02 2007,16:15) Hi 94, It could but was the son of Man in the form of God on earth? No rather he was in our image so we can follow him. No Nick: To me this means that He was God's Only begotten Son and his Christ, and so he was in the “form of God” but this indicates present tense, and so the scripture reads: Phil 2:5 * Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:  (that is when he was in his ministry on earth) Hi 94, Just show me when it is written as happening on earth. When did he empty himself and why is this written as before it says he was found as a man? Hi Nick: Was he “Christ Jesus” any where else? Hi 94, Jesus Christ CAME IN THE FLESH.[1Jn 4. 2Jn] Hi Nick: I agree Jesus God's Only Begotten Son and His Christ came in the flesh. Hi 94, To come in the flesh is to exist and then come. Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever. Hi Nick: The scripture says that he was conceived of the Holy Ghost.  Please show me by scripture how he existed before this took place. Thanks

And then no one answered him…….

A few typical verses were given (“…before Abraham I am…”) but nothing was hashed out regarding the various interpretations of that verse as it related to the topic at hand.

Reviewing this thread and the various opinions of Nick, Isaiah, 94, WJ and other's leads me to believe that THERE IS NOTHING NEW UNDER THE SUN regarding the understanding of this so-called “watershed” passage of scriptures.

Sigh……

I'm wondering, seriously, if I want to waste my time delving into it at all? I'll think about it today and see if I want to pursue this tonight. I really do have other things going on during this time of the year. I would hate to disappoint you, David, but as you can see from this thread……it has all been said before.

Thanks,
Mandy

[malcolm ferris]

Quote

WJ….> I think you might be tweaking that Just a little It doesn't really say they were worshiping the Lamb specifically but i could see how you might see it that way. There is a scripture that says that every knee should bow to Jesus, but if you check it out it says (MAY) it's kind of inferring if you do  bow to Jesus, it must be to the Glory of God the Father. This could be whats going on in the scripture you quoted also. imo………gene

Hi Gene

This brought to mind the old testament type of Joseph and Pharoah. Everyone had to bow the knee to Joseph and he was Pharoahs' right hand his chief administrator…
Notice in the verses you refer to in Ephesians it goes on to say that they will do so to the glory of God the Father.
God loses no preeminence at all in this as the story in Genesis shows us.
IMHO

[GeneBalthrop]

Malcolm ferris…. i agree with you, We are told to have NO other God besides God himself, nor to bow down and serve them , But when we bow to Jesus (TO) the GLORY OF GOD we are really serving GOD, the FATHER, and the same with the people of Egypt, when they bowed down to Joseph they were really bowing down to Pharaoh himself. Good post brother.

love and peace to you and yours…………gene

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