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Quote (2besee @ Mar. 20 2013,00:07) t8, I thought that you were an Arian? The “Early Church Fathers” were not Arians but were Trinitarians. If you read their writings, you will get confused. I know that I did. They were inconsistent in what they wrote. All that you need is in the scriptures — and then there are other writings which were considered canon by the earliest Church. Trust them.
2besee, the reason they confuse you is because you do not understand the usage of theos in Greek and elohim in Hebrew.If you believe that both words can only apply to the Most High God, then you err. And hence why you think they are Trinitarian.
Theos is applied to the Father, Son, Angels, Council of God. Same with Elohim or El. Even earthquakes can be described as elohim.
When you understand the truth as to how scripture uses these words, you will then see clearly that these guys taught that there was one uncreated God who is the source of all things, even the source of the son and the Word.
Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 20 2013,05:02) Quote (t8 @ Mar. 19 2013,01:51) Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 19 2013,17:52) This 'article theology' argument falls flat on its back for two reasons:
1. It is inconsistent since there are two other verses in John 1 alone that have the word 'God' in them but NO ARTICLE and they refer to God who is unseen.2. The article is not there in order to indicate that 'God' is not the subject of the clause but instead-the predicate nominative. Go to the above link and get educated.
LU, even many Trinitarian scholars agree that if it was implying that the Word was THE God even though for grammatical reasons it doesn't have THE, it still could not mean that the Word was God because if it did, it would be saying that to the detriment/exclusion of the Father.
The trinitarian's belief that the Son of God is very God of very God, doesn't do any detriment to the Father as God. This truth is made to the glory of the Father.
Babble all you like. I know that the Word became flesh and that the Word was with God and that the Word is also part of God. Like Wisdom. It is an attribute of God, and yet wisdom was brought forth and God created all with Wisdom as the workman by his side.Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. And the Word that was with God did not divest the Word that is in God. The Word then came to the lost.
I am not here to attack or agree with your attacks as to who Jesus is. Jesus identity is the foundation of the Church and Peter explains who he is to us in scripture.
Kathi says, “You are YHWH, one person of the Binity God”.
Peter said, “You are the Christ, the son of the living God”.
Jesus said, “blessed are you Peter…. Upon this rock I will build my Church and the Gates of Hell shall not prevail.You obviously have a warped view of things Kathi if you think we would ever consider abandonment of the truth about Jesus for your view. And if the Gates of Hell cannot prevail against the Church that is built on the truth that Peter uttered, then what chance do you have of prevailing against it. I say no chance.
Might was well give it up Kathi, you will only injure yourself fighting the truth. You attack Jesus by lying about him. Your offense and fight is with him.
Quote (t8 @ Mar. 20 2013,10:59) Quote (2besee @ Mar. 20 2013,00:07) t8, I thought that you were an Arian? The “Early Church Fathers” were not Arians but were Trinitarians. If you read their writings, you will get confused. I know that I did. They were inconsistent in what they wrote. All that you need is in the scriptures — and then there are other writings which were considered canon by the earliest Church. Trust them.
2besee, the reason they confuse you is because you do not understand the usage of theos in Greek and elohim in Hebrew.
If you believe that both words can only apply to the Most High God, then you err. And hence why you think they are Trinitarian.
Theos is applied to the Father, Son, Angels, Council of God. Same with Elohim or El. Even earthquakes can be described as elohim.
When you understand the truth as to how scripture uses these words, you will then see clearly that these guys taught that there was one uncreated God who is the source of all things, even the source of the son and the Word.
t8, I am not Arian any longer. So when you say that there is one God uncreated and then the Son (created)…. ?. I believe in one God consisting of the Father and the eternal Spirit, also called the Son, God's active spirit in creation and in the world. Jesus was a man/son of God/perfect man/savior of the world, from the tribe of Judah, though He is not a man any longer and could rightly be called GOD (though not THE God), and Lord, so yes I do understand, I just have a different understanding of what was.The “Early Church Fathers” are completely inconsistent in what they wrote, IMO. And also why did only their writings survived all of the burnings? I would not trust them at all, and 'yes', I have read them.
Just saying,
Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 20 2013,02:13) Quote (2besee @ Mar. 19 2013,16:07) t8, I thought that you were an Arian? The “Early Church Fathers” were not Arians but were Trinitarians. If you read their writings, you will get confused. I know that I did. They were inconsistent in what they wrote. All that you need is in the scriptures — and then there are other writings which were considered canon by the earliest Church. Trust them.
2beesee,I do not even trust Scripture which has been in the hands of corrupt and ignorant men.
There is but one to trust.
Hi Kerwin.I trust the scriptures and God can lead us through them, and if there is anything not right, God shows us.
I like to take each day at a time, and I listen to God and pray. We are all human beings among so many human beings, just a speck of dust compared to the other planets…. Sorry, not meaning to get preachy!!
Anyway, just giving my ten cents ont his thread, and now I am gone!!
God bless.
Quote (2besee @ Mar. 20 2013,04:37) Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 20 2013,02:13) Quote (2besee @ Mar. 19 2013,16:07) t8, I thought that you were an Arian? The “Early Church Fathers” were not Arians but were Trinitarians. If you read their writings, you will get confused. I know that I did. They were inconsistent in what they wrote. All that you need is in the scriptures — and then there are other writings which were considered canon by the earliest Church. Trust them.
2beesee,I do not even trust Scripture which has been in the hands of corrupt and ignorant men.
There is but one to trust.
Hi Kerwin.I trust the scriptures and God can lead us through them, and if there is anything not right, God shows us.
I like to take each day at a time, and I listen to God and pray. We are all human beings among so many human beings, just a speck of dust compared to the other planets…. Sorry, not meaning to get preachy!!
Anyway, just giving my ten cents ont his thread, and now I am gone!!
God bless.
2beeQuote I trust the scriptures and God can lead us through them, and if there is anything not right, God shows us. God shows us ;;HOW
Quote (2besee @ Mar. 20 2013,12:16) t8, I am not Arian any longer. So when you say that there is one God uncreated and then the Son (created)…. ?
I believe as they did that the son was brought forth/begotten/came directly from God. Creation is thus defined as all that is made from God and through his son.Someone had to be first right? This is what makes him special. He was the first and came from the only thing in existence, God. Whereas we are made from that which was made. Although we are born again into sonship too. This is the promise.
Quote (2besee @ Mar. 20 2013,12:16) The “Early Church Fathers” are completely inconsistent in what they wrote, IMO. And also why did only their writings survived all of the burnings? I would not trust them at all, and 'yes', I have read them.
It is this misunderstanding of their words that has led to the Trinity. If you understand the usage of theos and elohim in scripture as well as their writings, things become clear and any scripture or writing used to promote the Trinity is easily seen as wrong.At some point of course some writings went wayward. I believe this was misunderstanding based on these Church fathers that eventually became the Trinity Doctrine as we know it today. Of course this is to be expected. Paul warned us of deceivers and deception that would come after he (Paul) died.
Quote (abe @ Mar. 18 2013,21:09) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 18 2013,18:40) Quote (abe @ Mar. 17 2013,11:05) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 16 2013,17:04) Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 16 2013,07:57) T8 and all, Adam was THE Adam is right.
Adam was adam is right.
Okay Kerwin,In the beginning was Cain. And Cain was with THE adam, and Cain was adam.
Is this also correct?
ABE, this question is also for you.
Hi Mike,Gen.1:1 In the beginning God created
Jn.1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Before God created the word, what is the word?
Peace brother.
Abe,I believe I have a question awaiting an answer from you. AFTER you answer MY question, I'll happily answer yours.
peace,
mike
Hi Mike,I just answered your question.
Peace brother.
I don't believe you did, Abe. I want to know if, in the bolded, supersized part of my post above, “adam” in part c is “THE Adam” from part b.In other words, was Cain THE very Adam he was with? YES or NO?
Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 18 2013,21:59) Mike,
I am glad that you can see that I make a point. The point that I made destroys the foundation of the argument that Origen was building so I see no need to bother with the conclusions that he built on top of a foundation made of sand.
“Destroys the foundation of the argument”?Are you saying that John COULDN'T HAVE BEEN distinguishing between “THE god”, and the “god” who was with “THE god”?
Don't you agree with me, Origen, and Irenaeus that “THE god”, in part b, refers to the Father, while “god”, in part c, refers to a DIFFERENT god who was WITH the Father?
Because I thought you DID agree to the fact that 1:1 speaks of TWO gods, one of whom was with the other. Have you changed your mind now?
Quote (t8 @ Mar. 19 2013,00:51) LU, even many Trinitarian scholars agree that if it was implying that the Word was THE God even though for grammatical reasons it doesn't have THE, it still could not mean that the Word was God because if it did, it would be saying that to the detriment/exclusion of the Father.
And even the 25 TRINITARIAN scholars who produced NETNotes acknowledge:The construction in John 1:1c does not equate the Word with the person of God (this is ruled out by 1:1b, “the Word was with God”)
To me, these things just seem like simple, God-given common sense. But I've noticed that those who attempt to force the words of scripture to support their own, man-made doctrines, often do so at the expense of common sense.
Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 19 2013,07:20) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 19 2013,08:44) (2) He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. 2) This part tells me that Origen believes “THE theos” of part b is the “uncreated cause of all things”, while “the Word” is NOT.
Do you believe the “god” in part b is the Father God Almighty, Creator of the Universe?
Mike,No, as theos is used to mean Jehovah in certain passages.
A perfect example of what I just said in my last post.
What do you mean “NO”, Kerwin?
Who then DO you suppose the “god” in part b is – if not the Father?Quote (t8 @ Mar. 19 2013,15:56) Did. Do. Will do in the future. 
(Thanks for the Irenaeus quote. I will break that one down like I did the Origen quote you posted……… when I get the time.
)Quote (2besee @ Mar. 19 2013,16:16) He is not a man any longer and could rightly be called GOD (though not THE God), and Lord, so yes I do understand…………
See 2B? This is why I call you out whenever you post Isaiah 44, and try to imply that there LITERALLY exists only ONE god. You KNOW that isn't the scriptural fact of the matter because, like you said in the quote box above, you do understand.You understand that the scriptures teach of only ONE uncreated cause of all things, but of MANY gods. You even understand that Jesus is one of these lesser gods.
I know that you understand these things, because you have posted them before in the other thread. So I don't understand why you often try to use Is 44 as proof against the things you have already acknowledged as scriptural truth.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 19 2013,16:30) Quote (abe @ Mar. 18 2013,21:09) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 18 2013,18:40) Quote (abe @ Mar. 17 2013,11:05) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 16 2013,17:04) Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 16 2013,07:57) T8 and all, Adam was THE Adam is right.
Adam was adam is right.
Okay Kerwin,In the beginning was Cain. And Cain was with THE adam, and Cain was adam.
Is this also correct?
ABE, this question is also for you.
Hi Mike,Gen.1:1 In the beginning God created
Jn.1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Before God created the word, what is the word?
Peace brother.
Abe,I believe I have a question awaiting an answer from you. AFTER you answer MY question, I'll happily answer yours.
peace,
mike
Hi Mike,I just answered your question.
Peace brother.
I don't believe you did, Abe. I want to know if, in the bolded, supersized part of my post above, “adam” in part c is “THE Adam” from part b.In other words, was Cain THE very Adam he was with? YES or NO?
Hi Mike,Cain was Adam, before Cain was born.
I have other verses for you on Wisdom.
Lk.11:47 Woe unto you! for ye build the sepulchres of the prophets, and your fathers killed them. 48Truly ye bear witness that ye allow the deeds of your fathers: for they indeed killed them, and ye build their sepulchres. 49Therefore also said the wisdom of God, I will send them prophets and apostles, and [some] of them they shall slay and persecute: 50That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation;
Wisdom Calls Aloud
Pr.1:20 Wisdom cries without; she utters her voice in the streets:
21 She cries in the chief place of concourse, in the openings of the gates: in the city she utters her words, saying,
22How long, you simple ones, will you love simplicity? and the scorners delight in their scorning, and fools hate knowledge?
23Turn you at my reproof: behold, I will pour out my spirit to you, I will make known my words to you.
24Because I have called, and you refused; I have stretched out my hand, and no man regarded;
25But you have set at nothing all my counsel, and would none of my reproof:
26I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear comes;
27When your fear comes as desolation, and your destruction comes as a whirlwind; when distress and anguish comes on you.
28Then shall they call on me, but I will not answer; they shall seek me early, but they shall not find me:
29For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the LORD:
30They would none of my counsel: they despised all my reproof.
31Therefore shall they eat of the fruit of their own way, and be filled with their own devices.
32For the turning away of the simple shall slay them, and the prosperity of fools shall destroy them.
33But whoever listens to me shall dwell safely, and shall be quiet from fear of evil.
2:1 My son, if you will receive my words, and hide my commandments with you;
2So that you incline your ear to wisdom, and apply your heart to understanding;
3Yes, if you cry after knowledge, and lift up your voice for understanding;
4If you seek her as silver, and search for her as for hid treasures;
5Then shall you understand the fear of the LORD, and find the knowledge of God.
6For the LORD gives wisdom: out of his mouth comes knowledge and understanding.
7He lays up sound wisdom for the righteous: he is a buckler to them that walk uprightly.
8He keeps the paths of judgment, and preserves the way of his saints.
9Then shall you understand righteousness, and judgment, and equity; yes, every good path.
10When wisdom enters into your heart, and knowledge is pleasant to your soul;
11Discretion shall preserve you, understanding shall keep you:
12To deliver you from the way of the evil man, from the man that speaks fraudulent things;Pr.3:19 The LORD by wisdom has founded the earth; by understanding has he established the heavens.
Pr.8:1 Does not wisdom cry? and understanding put forth her voice?
2 She stands in the top of high places, by the way in the places of the paths.
3She cries at the gates, at the entry of the city, at the coming in at the doors.
4To you, O men, I call; and my voice is to the sons of man.
5O you simple, understand wisdom: and, you fools, be you of an understanding heart.
6Hear; for I will speak of excellent things; and the opening of my lips shall be right things.
7For my mouth shall speak truth; and wickedness is an abomination to my lips.
8All the words of my mouth are in righteousness; there is nothing fraudulent or perverse in them.
9They are all plain to him that understands, and right to them that find knowledge.
10Receive my instruction, and not silver; and knowledge rather than choice gold.
11For wisdom is better than rubies; and all the things that may be desired are not to be compared to it.
12 I wisdom dwell with prudence, and find out knowledge of witty inventions.
13The fear of the LORD is to hate evil: pride, and arrogance, and the evil way, and the fraudulent mouth, do I hate.
14Counsel is mine, and sound wisdom: I am understanding; I have strength.
15By me kings reign, and princes decree justice.
16By me princes rule, and nobles, even all the judges of the earth.
17 I love them that love me; and those that seek me early shall find me.
18Riches and honor are with me; yes, durable riches and righteousness.
19 My fruit is better than gold, yes, than fine gold; and my revenue than choice silver. See Rev.22:2.
20I lead in the way of righteousness, in the middle of the paths of judgment:
21That I may cause those that love me to inherit substance; and I will fill their treasures.
22The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.
23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.
24When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water.
25Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth:
26While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of th
e world.
27When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass on the face of the depth:
28When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep:
29When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth:
30Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him;
31Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men.
32Now therefore listen to me, O you children: for blessed are they that keep my ways.
33Hear instruction, and be wise, and refuse it not.
34Blessed is the man that hears me, watching daily at my gates, waiting at the posts of my doors.
35For whoever finds me finds life, and shall obtain favor of the LORD.
36But he that sins against me wrongs his own soul: all they that hate me love death.Peace brother…..
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 20 2013,14:46) To me, these things just seem like simple, God-given common sense. But I've noticed that those who attempt to force the words of scripture to support their own, man-made doctrines, often do so at the expense of common sense.
Agreed. It still surprises me when people argue against common sense. This proves to me that something is blocking that function in the person because by default God endowed all mankind with the ability to understand common sense. Things like demons, brainwashing, and false doctrinal beliefs are powerful enough to blind people from even the most basic of common sense.Quote (abe @ Mar. 19 2013,21:27) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 19 2013,16:30) In the beginning was Cain. And Cain was with THE adam, and Cain was adam. I want to know if, in the bolded, supersized part of my post above, “adam” in part c is “THE Adam” from part b.
In other words, was Cain THE very Adam he was with? YES or NO?
Hi Mike,Cain was Adam, before Cain was born.
I'm not sure what that even means, Abe. And I am vaguely interested in hearing you explain that statement……….. BUT……………. I STILL want a DIRECT answer to my question.Please answer ONLY the question I asked above – and do so in a DIRECT and HONEST manner.
peace,
mikeQuote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 19 2013,19:36) Quote (abe @ Mar. 19 2013,21:27) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 19 2013,16:30) In the beginning was Cain. And Cain was with THE adam, and Cain was adam. I want to know if, in the bolded, supersized part of my post above, “adam” in part c is “THE Adam” from part b.
In other words, was Cain THE very Adam he was with? YES or NO?
Hi Mike,Cain was Adam, before Cain was born.
I'm not sure what that even means, Abe. And I am vaguely interested in hearing you explain that statement……….. BUT……………. I STILL want a DIRECT answer to my question.Please answer ONLY the question I asked above – and do so in a DIRECT and HONEST manner.
peace,
mike
Hi Mike and T8,In the Beginning God created;
Everything in the Beginning was created
Cain was created in the Beginning, Adam I take it you are using for God? Before Adam bore Cain, Cain was Adam. Or before God created the Word. The Word was God… Why is this so difficult?Peace brothers……
Quote (abe @ Mar. 19 2013,21:58) Before Adam bore Cain, Cain was Adam. Why is this so difficult?
Hmmm…………… You may have to explain this to us, Abe.But no matter what it means, it doesn't address my question. My question is based on Adam and Cain both being alive, and with each other. It does not have to do with BEFORE Cain was born.
So please DIRECTLY answer it for me.
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