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Quote (Lightenup @ April 20 2013,17:51) Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 19 2013,19:42) Oh, and don't forget that the nation of Israel was also “called by the name of YHWH”. Does that make THEM “YHWH Himself”? Kathi, stop looking for specks and ignoring the planks.
The speck is that Israel is called BY the name of YHVH. All of us, if we are truly Christians are called by the name of YHVH. That doesn't mean we have YHVH as our personal name but Jesus does as the 'Root.'
Hi LU,(Quote)
The speck is that Israel is called BY the name of YHVH.Ex.4:22 “Then you shall say to Pharaoh, 'Thus says the LORD, “Israel is My son, My firstborn.
Peace sister.
Hi abe,
Acts 15
14Simeon has related how God first visited the Gentiles, to take from them a people for his name.Quote (kerwin @ April 20 2013,10:14) Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 20 2013,06:56) Quote (kerwin @ April 18 2013,22:41) The rabbinical understanding of the “Holy Spirit” has a certain degree of personification, but it remains, “a quality belonging to God, one of his attributes”.
Bravo! I couldn't have worded it better myself. I'm going to save that one.But Kerwin, do you suppose God's “son” is merely one of His “qualities”, or “attributes”?
Mike,The relationship between God and the Spirit is like the relationship between a father and his son, even his heir. It is a known 1st Century Jewish way of speech. The Greeks and other people may have used it as well.
God's “Son” the Spirit is one of his attributes.
Oh brother!
Quote (Lightenup @ April 20 2013,19:40) Mike,
These other elohim came through Jesus and not directly from the Father. Do you agree?
Absolutely. God created Jesus' spirit brothers through His firstborn Son, Jesus.Quote (Lightenup @ April 20 2013,19:45) Mike,
From what I can tell, the Angel of the LORD is one of Jesus' titles but He was not an angel being but instead theos, John 1:1.
The fact that he was called “god” is irrelevant, since many of God's angels were called “god” – Satan included.So that part is the speck. The PLANK is that Jesus is an angel of YHWH – a scriptural fact that you've argued against up until now.
I'm glad that you've come over to the truth of this matter.
Quote (Lightenup @ April 20 2013,19:48) He was a heavenly messenger and in that sense He was called an angel at times but the Bible confirms Him as YHVH.
And how about the angel in the burning bush? He was addressed as “YHWH”. Was that Jesus in the bush?How about all the other ones? Were the angels who were addressed as “YHWH” all Jesus? Doesn't matter. The fact that you've now admitted Jesus is an angel OF YHWH makes my heart glad. It makes me think there is still hope for you.
Quote (Lightenup @ April 20 2013,19:51) Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 19 2013,19:42) Oh, and don't forget that the nation of Israel was also “called by the name of YHWH”. Does that make THEM “YHWH Himself”? Kathi, stop looking for specks and ignoring the planks.
The speck is that Israel is called BY the name of YHVH. All of us, if we are truly Christians are called by the name of YHVH. That doesn't mean we have YHVH as our personal name but Jesus does as the 'Root.'
Jehovah said about the angel He sent ahead of the Israelites: I have put MY name in him.Now since it's Jesus we're talking about here, you'll naturally read something into that statement, and insist it means something different than “we are called by the name of YHWH”, right?
Kathi, I can agree that Jesus, as the representative of his and our God, could have been called “YHWH”. In that culture, representatives were often addressed as if they were the one who sent them. (There are instances of this that don't have to do with Jesus in the OT. I could try to find them in the NET Bible again if you'd like. In fact, I can't remember the scriptures, but the footnotes said almost exactly what I just said. I believe they also said that this practice was not limited to the Bible.)
So yes, I can see Jesus being one of God's representatives who was addressed as “YHWH”. And I've always known from scripture that Jesus is one of God's many angels.
The only part I have a problem with is Heb 1:1-2. That passages makes me think that perhaps God DIDN'T speak to anyone through His servant Jesus until “these last days”.
What do you think?
Quote (Lightenup @ April 20 2013,19:55) The only begotten God would have a God of His own,
Why? Fathers beget, God creates. If Jehovah literally begot me, He would be my FATHER – but why would He be my GOD?Quote (Lightenup @ April 20 2013,19:55) His Father who is theos would by default be theos to the only begotten theos.
Why? If I was an equally eternal, equally mighty “part of” this God who begot me, why would He be “my God”?Quote (Lightenup @ April 20 2013,19:55) That in no way negates the possibility of the eternal existence of both and unity as Jehovah who is BOTH God of gods and Lord of lords.
As of yet, there is no reason for anyone to “negate” your claim, because you haven't proven it to start with. Kathi, you took the fact that YHWH is both a Lord of other lords AND a God of other gods, and tried to use it as some kind of “proof” that Jesus is part of “God Almighty”.But the simple fact that THE FATHER is BOTH a God over other gods AND a Lord over other lords is enough to assume that the Father (ALONE) is the one being described in that verse. I know you want to IMAGINE that two are being discussed there, but there isn't one shred of evidence to support that imagination.
Look at it this way, Kathi: Your understanding is that the Father is the “God part” of the unity, and Jesus is the “Lord part”, right? Why then is the Father also a Lord, and Jesus also a god? Now the whole thing gets jumbled up until we don't know which “Lord” or “God” we're talking about anymore, right?
When you come up with something besides personal wishes to support your claim, it will be time for the rest of us to “negate” it even further than I just did. Until then, you are just making UNSUPPORTED claims that you WANT to be true.
It is not up to us to “negate” things that you can't even prove in the first place.
Quote (Lightenup @ April 21 2013,07:56) Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 19 2013,19:52) Quote (Lightenup @ April 18 2013,21:48) Let's not forget that fathers naturally have a position higher than their sons.
And let's not forget that gods naturally have a higher position than those they are the god of.
So Jesus is lesser than his God and Father on at least two counts. And even though Jesus is “a god”, he is not “The Most High God”………. so make that three counts.
I could go on until I reached about 100 counts – but I think you get the point.
Jehovah is the most High. Jehovah is BOTH God of gods AND Lord of lords, Father and Son!
KathyNo ,Christ the son his NOT GOD OF GODS ,IF SO SHOW YOUR SCRIPTURE
?Quote (Lightenup @ April 20 2013,19:56) Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 19 2013,19:52) Quote (Lightenup @ April 18 2013,21:48) Let's not forget that fathers naturally have a position higher than their sons.
And let's not forget that gods naturally have a higher position than those they are the god of.
Jehovah is the most High. Jehovah is BOTH God of gods AND Lord of lords, Father and Son!
Everything about your statement is true – up until the words “and Son”.Kathi, if Jesus is also “Most High”, then he would not have “The Most High” as his own God, would he?
“God” is greater than Jesus, and Jesus is lesser than “God”. Can you admit that?
Quote (Lightenup @ April 20 2013,22:06) Jesus was a theos being, not an angel being, Mike. Get it straight.
Show me the difference in the scriptures, Kathi. Show me how the angel “Jesus” is a “god BEING”, while the other “gods” in Ps 82 are not “god BEINGS”.What SCRIPTURE tells us that the angel/god Jesus Christ is a different kind of BEING than those other angels/gods.
Quote (Lightenup @ April 20 2013,22:22) Mike,
Do you think God is an angel?
An angel of WHO, Kathi? Who is it that sends Almighty YHWH to deliver his message?Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 20 2013,23:38) Quote (Lightenup @ April 20 2013,22:06) Jesus was a theos being, not an angel being, Mike. Get it straight.
Show me the difference in the scriptures, Kathi. Show me how the angel “Jesus” is a “god BEING”, while the other “gods” in Ps 82 are not “god BEINGS”.What SCRIPTURE tells us that the angel/god Jesus Christ is a different kind of BEING than those other angels/gods.
The others were not perfect, Jesus was. Only God beings are perfect and must be perfect and uncreated.Mike
you askedQuote Why? Fathers beget, God creates. If Jehovah literally begot me, He would be my FATHER – but why would He be my GOD? Because He is God.
If the President of the U.S. begat you, he would be your father and your president. Right? That President, if he only had one child, would only be both the President and father to one person. He would just be the president to everyone else in the U.S. not their father too.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 20 2013,23:40) Quote (Lightenup @ April 20 2013,22:22) Mike,
Do you think God is an angel?
An angel of WHO, Kathi? Who is it that sends Almighty YHWH to deliver his message?
Is that a no?Quote (terraricca @ April 20 2013,23:32) Quote (Lightenup @ April 21 2013,07:56) Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 19 2013,19:52) Quote (Lightenup @ April 18 2013,21:48) Let's not forget that fathers naturally have a position higher than their sons.
And let's not forget that gods naturally have a higher position than those they are the god of.So Jesus is lesser than his God and Father on at least two counts. And even though Jesus is “a god”, he is not “The Most High God”………. so make that three counts.
I could go on until I reached about 100 counts – but I think you get the point.
Jehovah is the most High. Jehovah is BOTH God of gods AND Lord of lords, Father and Son!
KathyNo ,Christ the son his NOT GOD OF GODS ,IF SO SHOW YOUR SCRIPTURE
?
Ah, but He is Lord of lords. Jehovah is Lord of lords.
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