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Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 22 2013,14:11) So you're not far off from the Trinitarians then, 2B. They too believe God Almighty consists of a Father and a Son. So to you, Jesus is the Son of the Father AND Son? Wouldn't that make him the GRANDSON of God the Father – like Ed has pointed out?
That is silly, Mike.Jesus was conceived through the power of the Holy Spirit.
Adam was made through the power of the Holy Spirit.So what does that make Adam?
Adam is a Son of God, not a “grandson” of God.
My point (well, actually Ed's) exactly, 2B!
Adam is the SON of God. But if Adam was conceived by the Holy Spirit of God, who is already “the Son of God”, as you claim, then Adam would really be the GRANDSON of God.
Same with Jesus.
Quote (t8 @ Mar. 23 2013,01:15) Quote (2besee @ Mar. 23 2013,00:24) t8, We could never have the spirit as Jesus did.
We are sinners, Jesus was not a sinner.
I am far too tired to be posting at the moment.Later.
John 14:17
Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.Romans 8:11
But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.1 Corinthians 6-19
What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?1 John 4:4
Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.Good verses t8!
They answer part of the question, as did an earlier post of yours.And Kerwin's post about the “Cat” and Abe's verse were also good.
Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 21 2013,20:05) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 21 2013,19:39) Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 21 2013,10:19) Quote (t8 @ Mar. 21 2013,06:13) Certainly there is the reference that THE God is greater than the Word. Please show us this reference.
Well, Jesus is called “the Word of God” because he is God's spokesman, right? So who is greater Kathi, the spokesman, or the king for whom he speaks?Not to mention all the other scriptures that distinguish Jesus as lesser than his own God. (The fact that Jesus even HAS a God of his own should tell you that his God is greater than he is.
)
The Father is greater because of being the Father, not necessarily because He is the more powerful or wise of the two. What one has, the other has.
So then you've answered your own question to t8, right? The reference is in the fact that the god in part b is the Father, and the Father IS GREATER – even according to you.Add that to the fact that a spokesman is never as great as the one who sent him. (Jesus taught this same thought, right?)
And add that to the fact that Jesus even HAVING a God of his own should tell you he is not as great as the Father, who DOESN'T have a God of His own.
Oh, and you could throw in the scripture where Jesus point blank tells us that the Father is greater than he is.
Anyway, I believe it's not very hard to find a reference to the Father being greater than His servant, Jesus Christ.
Quote (t8 @ Mar. 23 2013,01:15) 2beese was inferring that Jesus was the Holy Spirit. Still don't see the evidence. I am open to hearing why.
t8, I don't have much time at the moment but…. We may occasionally speak through the Holy Spirit where Jesus had the spirit without measure and spoke through the Holy Spirit AS IF He WAS the Holy Spirit but in fact He was not the Holy Spirit but was flesh, man, sinless, the Messiah, the Christ, the anointed one. He was the chosen one, and the only way to the Father.Have you ever wondered WHY Jesus often spoke third person, such as saying “The Son of Man” in reference to Himself etc?
Or why He made a clear distinction between the Son of Man and the Holy Spirit?
I hope this is coherent, I don't have much time right now, and too much is going on around me.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 23 2013,12:26) My point (well, actually Ed's) exactly, 2B! Adam is the SON of God. But if Adam was conceived by the Holy Spirit of God, who is already “the Son of God”, as you claim, then Adam would really be the GRANDSON of God.
Same with Jesus.
No, Mike, it is not the same..And Ed would disagree, because His numbers probably don't match up
Quote (abe @ Mar. 22 2013,12:01) Hi T, Ps 138:8 The LORD will perfect that which concerneth me: thy mercy, O LORD, endureth for ever: forsake not the works of thine own hands.
WAS THE WRITER TALKING ABOUT SOMEONE TO COME OTHER THAN HIMSELF
WHAT YOU THINK,???
The LORD will perfect that which concerneth ME:
What do you think?
Peace brother..
abeyou did not answer my question is it yes or no
your answer that you Waite from me you may have it if you answered my question,
so please do
Quote (terraricca @ Mar. 21 2013,23:23) Quote (abe @ Mar. 22 2013,10:17) Quote (terraricca @ Mar. 21 2013,19:34) ………..if I was not born ,would i be in my father in reality NO, in allegorically yes,YOU MAY JUST SAY THE MINERAL ORE IN 2010, AS MY FORD PICKUP MODEL 2013 IN IT
Hi T,Jer,1:5 Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, And before you were born I consecrated you; I have appointed you a prophet to the nations.”
Peace brother…
abeyou really do not show me anything…………
Sorry Abe, but I was kind of thinking the same thing. Pierre just got done saying that ALLEGORICALLY, God could say He already “knew” Pierre's 2013 Ford Pickup Truck when it was nothing but some iron ore that was mined in 2010. But that allegorical statement would not mean that Pierre's 2013 truck was LITERALLY existing within that iron ore in 2010, right?And right after he gave this example, you quoted a scripture where God said he knew someone before they were in the womb. But that allegorical statement doesn't mean Jeremiah LITERALLY was a being who already existed before he was in his mother's womb, right?
Or do you take that statement LITERALLY, and believe Jeremiah DID exist in another state before being born?
Quote (2besee @ Mar. 22 2013,17:39) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 23 2013,12:26) My point (well, actually Ed's) exactly, 2B! Adam is the SON of God. But if Adam was conceived by the Holy Spirit of God, who is already “the Son of God”, as you claim, then Adam would really be the GRANDSON of God.
Same with Jesus.
No, Mike, it is not the same..
So tell me why not, 2B. Here's what I'm hearing from you:1. There exists God the Father.
2. There exists the Holy Spirit of God the Father, who happens to not only be God the Father's Son, but also a part of the being of God the Father. So God consists of a Father and a Son, but both are only ONE God.
3. There exists the man Jesus Christ, who was conceived by the SON part of God the Father (the Holy Spirit).
To me, this all adds up to God the Father having a Son called “the Holy Spirit”. And that “Holy Spirit Son of God the Father” is the one who conceived Jesus Christ. And to me, that means Jesus is the Son of the “Holy Spirit Son of God”, but the GRANDSON of the Father part of God.
Remember, I am concluding this from YOUR teachings. I'm just trying to put them all together in a logical fashion. How am I doing so far?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 22 2013,15:26) My point (well, actually Ed's) exactly, 2B! Adam is the SON of God. But if Adam was conceived by the Holy Spirit of God, who is already “the Son of God”, as you claim, then Adam would really be the GRANDSON of God.
Same with Jesus.
Hi Mike,Is the Spirit of God the same as the Holy Spirit?
Please Yes or No?
Peace brother..
Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 22 2013,17:02) Quote (t8 @ Mar. 22 2013,16:09) Quote (2besee @ Mar. 22 2013,23:52) Quote (t8 @ Mar. 22 2013,22:23) how can Jesus be a man only, and also be the Holy Spirit. Please explain it simply.
The Holy Spirit was IN HIM, speaking THROUGH Him. Was that simple enough? The two became as if one.
Agreed.
So when the Holy Spirit speaks through me what is happening. Am I the Spirit? Is this the point?
T8,And T8 spoke and said “let the cat out.”
And the Spirit spoke and said “let the cat out.”
And Yawheh spoke and said “let the cat out.”“Let the cat out” was said once and then from the mouth of t8's flesh.
kerwinso if millions of people say “let the cat out “” they then would also all have the holy spirit right
??yes or no
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 23 2013,13:07) Quote (2besee @ Mar. 22 2013,17:39) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 23 2013,12:26) My point (well, actually Ed's) exactly, 2B! Adam is the SON of God. But if Adam was conceived by the Holy Spirit of God, who is already “the Son of God”, as you claim, then Adam would really be the GRANDSON of God.
Same with Jesus.
No, Mike, it is not the same..
So tell me why not, 2B. Here's what I'm hearing from you:1. There exists God the Father.
2. There exists the Holy Spirit of God the Father, who happens to not only be God the Father's Son, but also a part of the being of God the Father. So God consists of a Father and a Son, but both are only ONE God.
3. There exists the man Jesus Christ, who was conceived by the SON part of God the Father (the Holy Spirit).
To me, this all adds up to God the Father having a Son called “the Holy Spirit”. And that “Holy Spirit Son of God the Father” is the one who conceived Jesus Christ. And to me, that means Jesus is the Son of the “Holy Spirit Son of God”, but the GRANDSON of the Father part of God.
Remember, I am concluding this from YOUR teachings. I'm just trying to put them all together in a logical fashion. How am I doing so far?
Mike,
How exactly do you believe Jesus was conceived without an earthly Father (I am not actually asking).Was it not by a miracle, through the power of God? Yes.
The world (and everything in it) was made through the power of the Holy Spirit so scriptures (and books such as Hermes and Wisdom) tell us.
So, Jesus was conceived through the power of the Holy Spirit – so two books of the Bible also tell us.
What is the difference in the world being created through the power of the Spirit and Jesus being created through the power of the spirit of God? The first created trees, and Adam, and the animals etc were not “God” or “part God” were they, just because they were created through the power of the Holy Spirit.
Mike, you will have to excuse me from this thread for a while. Sometimes I need 'time out'.
God bless.
Quote (terraricca @ Mar. 23 2013,06:55) Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 22 2013,17:02) Quote (t8 @ Mar. 22 2013,16:09) Quote (2besee @ Mar. 22 2013,23:52) Quote (t8 @ Mar. 22 2013,22:23) how can Jesus be a man only, and also be the Holy Spirit. Please explain it simply.
The Holy Spirit was IN HIM, speaking THROUGH Him. Was that simple enough? The two became as if one.
Agreed.
So when the Holy Spirit speaks through me what is happening. Am I the Spirit? Is this the point?
T8,And T8 spoke and said “let the cat out.”
And the Spirit spoke and said “let the cat out.”
And Yawheh spoke and said “let the cat out.”“Let the cat out” was said once and then from the mouth of t8's flesh.
kerwinso if millions of people say “let the cat out “” they then would also all have the holy spirit right
??yes or no
T,If spirit said “let the cat out” through 1 million human mouths then those humans would be saying “let the cat out.
If 1 million human said “let the cat out” but it was not the spirit speaking then their words would be of men.
In the first case the answer is that yes the million people are carried along by the Spirit.
In the second case the answer is no the million people are not carried along by the Spirit.
Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 23 2013,18:08) Quote (terraricca @ Mar. 23 2013,06:55) Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 22 2013,17:02) Quote (t8 @ Mar. 22 2013,16:09) Quote (2besee @ Mar. 22 2013,23:52) Quote (t8 @ Mar. 22 2013,22:23) how can Jesus be a man only, and also be the Holy Spirit. Please explain it simply.
The Holy Spirit was IN HIM, speaking THROUGH Him. Was that simple enough? The two became as if one.
Agreed.
So when the Holy Spirit speaks through me what is happening. Am I the Spirit? Is this the point?
T8,And T8 spoke and said “let the cat out.”
And the Spirit spoke and said “let the cat out.”
And Yawheh spoke and said “let the cat out.”“Let the cat out” was said once and then from the mouth of t8's flesh.
kerwinso if millions of people say “let the cat out “” they then would also all have the holy spirit right
??yes or no
T,If spirit said “let the cat out” through 1 million human mouths then those humans would be saying “let the cat out.
If 1 million human said “let the cat out” but it was not the spirit speaking then their words would be of men.
In the first case the answer is that yes the million people are carried along by the Spirit.
In the second case the answer is no the million people are not carried along by the Spirit.
but you have no clue how to see which one of the two groups would be true to the spirit rightQuote (2besee @ Mar. 23 2013,02:33) The world (and everything in it) was made through the power of the Holy Spirit so scriptures (and books such as Hermes and Wisdom) tell us.
I would say the world and all other things were made by the power of God Himself. The Holy Spirit of God is not an entity in and of itself, that it should have it's own “power”.I believe the JWs have put it correctly when they say the Holy Spirit of God is God's “active force”, with which God accomplishes His many purposes.
Quote (t8 @ Mar. 22 2013,00:18) Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 22 2013,18:02) t8,
The Hebrew word ha-adam has the article 'ha' and refers to one person no matter what their proper name is. If the proper name is meant 'Adam' there is no 'ha' with it. That is what the article is saying. It is also saying that adam without the article refers to mankind in general. So 'the adam' can refer to Seth, or Noah, or Moses.
True because THE Adam is identifying a particular man, whereas adam is not. Is that not what I have been saying all along now you have finally come around to my view.When I was talking about Adam the man, was I not giving an example and was the example wrong. No it was not.
I was using Adam and Eve in particular to show how the definite article works. When talking about Adam the man we say THE Adam and when talking about mankind, we don't use the definite article. If you say it works equally as well for Seth or anyone else then thank you for that, because that supports what I have said, that it is a particular man and Seth and Noah are particular men. But it changes not my view that the definite article preceding adam or theos identifies rather than qualifies. However, I never thought to use that to identify Seth or Noah. So thanks for that. But it makes sense because it is just saying THE Man rather than mankind which I have taught all along.
So if the Word was THE God, then it identifies the Word as God himself. But the text is not doing that even according to what you have just posted.
So let's take your words:
“It is also saying that adam without the article refers to mankind in general”And now apply this understanding to John 1:1
“It is also saying that theos without the article refers to 'theoskind' in general”.theoskind, godkind surely is talking about nature just as mankind is. That is why 'divine' works well.
So yay, we made progress. How long did that take to admit that. You could have known this to be the case years ago if you weren't so obstinate.
My guess is now that you have admitted that the lack of article means that John 1:1c, doesn't support your view anymore, will you do an about turn for prides sake? I would like to be proven wrong on this, but my heart tells me otherwise.
t8,
It seems to me, before this post of yours, you were making a case that said only the first man created and known as 'Adam' would be 'the adam' and nobody else. Do you deny this? Although you have admitted that Jesus is also 'the adam' as the second Adam.Quote (t8 @ Mar. 22 2013,00:18) Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 22 2013,18:02) t8,
The Hebrew word ha-adam has the article 'ha' and refers to one person no matter what their proper name is.……….adam without the article refers to mankind in general. So 'the adam' can refer to Seth, or Noah, or Moses.
True because THE Adam is identifying a particular man, whereas adam is not. Is that not what I have been saying all along now you have finally come around to my view.
Hi Kathi,When I read your post, a part of which is in the quote box above, I thought the same thing t8 said, ie: Isn't that what I've been saying all along?
It seems that we all now agree that the definite article distinguishes one particular “adam”, or “theos”. And the lack of the article generally refers to “adam” qualitatively, or “theos” qualitatively – and not to one particular “adam” or “theos”.
Are we all in agreement on this?
Quote (abe @ Mar. 23 2013,06:52) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 22 2013,15:26) My point (well, actually Ed's) exactly, 2B! Adam is the SON of God. But if Adam was conceived by the Holy Spirit of God, who is already “the Son of God”, as you claim, then Adam would really be the GRANDSON of God.
Same with Jesus.
Hi Mike,Is the Spirit of God the same as the Holy Spirit?
Please Yes or No?
Peace brother..
abedo not mix up,the fact that GOD almighty HIS a spirit BEING an entity on his own ,
so his spirit or holy spirit his not his being but his will,mind,plan,etc;
what GOD want that is what will happen ,and he as the power to do it ,
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 23 2013,13:30) Quote (t8 @ Mar. 22 2013,00:18) Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 22 2013,18:02) t8,
The Hebrew word ha-adam has the article 'ha' and refers to one person no matter what their proper name is.……….adam without the article refers to mankind in general. So 'the adam' can refer to Seth, or Noah, or Moses.
True because THE Adam is identifying a particular man, whereas adam is not. Is that not what I have been saying all along now you have finally come around to my view.
Hi Kathi,When I read your post, a part of which is in the quote box above, I thought the same thing t8 said, ie: Isn't that what I've been saying all along?
It seems that we all now agree that the definite article distinguishes one particular “adam”, or “theos”. And the lack of the article generally refers to “adam” qualitatively, or “theos” qualitatively – and not to one particular “adam” or “theos”.
Are we all in agreement on this?
Mike,
I don't think it is that simple. Adam, by itself-without the article, can be adam (as a kind) or Adam, the proper noun. Also, there is this grammar thing about when two words in one sentence/clause are both in the nominative case, one of them has the article to distinquish which one is the subject of the clause and which one is the predicate. In that instance the one without the article can be a particular theos or not.So, since theos in John 1:1c is written in the nominative case and not as an adjective or a noun that is not written in the nominative case, we can't say that is must not be one particular God.
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