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@DT
Exodus 33:20
And he said, “You cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live.”
13] I saw in the visions of the night, and behold, one like a son of man came with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence.
14] To him was given dominion, glory, and a kingdom, that all peoples, nations, and languages should serve him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that shall not pass away, and his kingdom one that shall never be destroyed.
Based on this text, we can believe that “the one who was like the Son of Man” survived by being near the Ancient of Days.
Why do you think that is?
What enabled him to survive before God?
Not following your passage comparison of Exodus and Daniel; one speaks of man not being able to fully see G-d’s glory and the other is a vision/dream. You still haven’t explained how this would be about the Jesus.
What enabled him to survive before God?
It was a dream.
The bigger and only question one must ask, did the Jesus fulfill what was spoken about the Messiah in the Tanakh? The Tanakh is the foundation for everything in the NT and therefore MUST be how the true Messiah is determined in the NT. The Messiah is to unite the world and “all peoples, nations, and languages should serve him” (your Daniel passage). When the Jesus was here, he only spoke to the Jews and had a small population of the region following him; since you believe he is yet to return, what portion of the population will serve the Jesus…only those he has determined worthy – depart from me, I do not know you; even though they thought they were serving the Jesus, he tells them they aren’t good enough…WOW!!!!!
If the Jesus is going to be selective at the end, it doesn’t sound like “ALL peoples, nations, and languages.” The Jesus even says he didn’t come to bring peace, but division (Luke 12:51); explain how this is a fulfillment of what the Tanakh says using your Daniel 7:14 passage.
@DT
I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
[14] And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.Since you do not believe that the One described in Daniel 7:13 is the Christ Jesus, who then is he to you?
Because
“there was given 👉him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.”I already said who the one that “looks like the son of man” is. It IS a reference to the Messiah; it IS NOT a reference to the Jesus. Can you prove the Jesus is the true Messiah spoken of in the Tanakh; did the Jesus fulfill all that was said the Messiah was to do when he was here; if the Jesus missed a single requirement spoken about the Messiah, can he be considered the true Messiah? Can you list the requirements of the Messiah spoken of in the Tanakh?
Please reread what I just wrote today in my response to you:
The bigger and only question one must ask, did the Jesus fulfill what was spoken about the Messiah in the Tanakh? The Tanakh is the foundation for everything in the NT and therefore MUST be how the true Messiah is determined in the NT. The Messiah is to unite the world and “all peoples, nations, and languages should serve him” (your Daniel passage). When the Jesus was here, he only spoke to the Jews and had a tiny, tiny, tiny, tiny population of the world following him; since you believe he is yet to return, what portion of the population will serve the Jesus…only those he has determined worthy – depart from me, I do not know you; even though they thought they were serving the Jesus, he tells them they aren’t good enough…WOW!!!!! If the Jesus is going to be selective at the end, it doesn’t sound like “ALL peoples, nations, and languages.” The Jesus even says he didn’t come to bring peace, but division (Luke 12:51); explain how this is a fulfillment of what the Tanakh says using your Daniel 7:14 passage.
You’re not answering my question.
Who is this Son of Man to you? Yes, the Messiah, OK, but what name do you give him?
You’re not answering my question.
Who is this Son of Man to you? Yes, the Messiah, OK, but what name do you give him?
How can I name someone who hasn’t come yet!??!!?? I suppose we could call him “Bob”; but the wouldn’t be very Jewish.
When the Jesus was here, he only spoke to the Jews and had a tiny, tiny, tiny, tiny population of the world following him; since you believe he is yet to return, what portion of the population will serve the Jesus…only those he has determined worthy – depart from me, I do not know you; even though they thought they were serving the Jesus, he tells them they aren’t good enough…
in Luke 5.8, Peter says to Jesus, “Depart from me, for I am a sinful man” which is simply an expression of awe and unworthiness. It has nothing to do with being cast away from God forever. When Jesus says it, he is also not always talking about the final judgement.
The bigger and only question one must ask, did the Jesus fulfill what was spoken about the Messiah in the Tanakh?
If you take the entire Bible as true, then all genuine messianic prophecies in the Tanakh are considered fulfilled in Jesus either in his first coming or at his future return. Some prophecies are seen as already fulfilled, while others such as universal peace, worldwide knowledge of God, and the full restoration of Israel are awaiting completion when he returns.
From only a Jewish viewpoint as seen from the Tanakh and history, several major prophecies have not been fulfilled by Jesus. Because these have not occurred, Judaism concludes that Jesus did not meet the Tanakh’s messianic expectations. But as I said before, there is a second coming of the messiah according to the New Testament.
Once as the lamb of God who was sacrificed for mankind’s sins. And returns as a reigning king to setup the Kingdom of God on earth.
So you await the messiah, and we await the messiah that has already fulfilled a good portion of the prophecies. But using the Tanakh alone, this is how some will treat the messiah which perhaps you yourself may be included:
- no beauty that we should desire him
- despised and rejected
- not esteemed
- The stone the builders rejected has become the chief cornerstone.
- They will look on me whom they have pierced and mourn for him.
Many recognise the Messiah today, even though he was largely rejected during his earthly ministry. Over time, God’s purpose has continued to unfold, and ultimately everyone will acknowledge that he is Lord. This will happen according to God’s timing, and the full fulfilment of prophecy naturally takes time, for with God a day is like a thousand years.
Revelation 11.15
“The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he shall reign for ever and ever.”Oh really? He’s not born yet!
The true Messiah may well be born today. When will we know?
How do you know he’s not born yet? Can you prove it with the Tanack?
A better question would be has he been revealed; his birth isn’t the focal point in the Tanakh, what he will do and what will happen when he arrives is. Please read again what I wrote in an earlier post:
The following is what the Messiah is to do or be when he arrives:
He must be Jewish
“…you may appoint a king over you, whom the L-rd your G-d shall choose: one from among your brethren shall you set as king over you.” (Deuteronomy 17:15)He must be a member of the tribe of Judah
“The staff shall not depart from Judah, nor the sceptre from between his feet…” (Genesis 49:10)To be a member of the tribe of Judah, the person must have a biological father who is a member of the tribe of Judah.
He must be a direct male descendant of King David and King Solomon, his son
“And when your days (David) are fulfilled, and you shall sleep with your fathers, I will set up your seed after you, who shall issue from your bowels, and I will establish his kingdom. He shall build a house for my name, and I will make firm the throne of his kingdom forever…” (2 Samuel 7:12 – 13)The genealogy of Joseph states he is not the biological father of the Jesus. The other genealogy is through Nathan and not Solomon.
He must gather the Jewish people from exile and return them to Israel
“And he shall set up a banner for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.” (Isaiah 11:12)Are all Jews living in Israel? Have all Jews EVER lived in Israel since the time of the Jesus?
He must rebuild the Temple in Jerusalem
“…and I will set my sanctuary in their midst forever and my tabernacle shall be with them..” (Ezekiel 37:26 – 27)At last check, there is NO Temple in Jerusalem. And worse, shortly after the Jesus died the Temple was destroyed! Just the opposite of this prophecy!
He will rule at a time of world-wide peace
“…they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks; nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war anymore.” (Micah 4:3)Are we living in a state of complete world peace? Has there ever been peace since the time of the Jesus? There definitely wasn’t peace in the first century.
He will rule at a time when the Jewish people will observe G-d’s commandments
“My servant David shall be king over them; and they shall all have one shepherd. They shall follow My ordinances and be careful to observe My statutes.” (Ezekiel 37:24)
The Torah is the Jewish guide to life, and its commandments are the ones referred to here. Do all Jews observe all the commandments? Christianity, in fact, often discourages observance of the commandments in Torah, in complete opposition to this prophecy.
He will rule at a time when all people will come to acknowledge and serve one G-d
“And it shall come to pass that from one new moon to another and from one Sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before Me, says the L-rd” (Isaiah 66:23)It says “all flesh” will worship G-d; not a few who believe in the Jesus. AND what about all those who existed before the Jesus walked this planet?
Can the true Messiah miss any one of these and still be called the Messiah? The obvious answer is NO he can’t, because according to G-d this is what the Messiah will do and will do everything G-d has outlined him to do. Can you give the passages that state, when the Jesus returns, he will accomplish all of this?
Prove the Jesus is the true Messiah; the evidence listed, shows he isn’t!
I cannot prove anything that hasn’t happened yet, but I can show you scriptures that state Jesus will do in the future which match scripture in the Old Testament relating to the messiah.
These are not exact matches, but the events overlap. I could also get more accurate by quoting multiple scriptures to get a better match, but let’s start here.
Isaiah 2:2 to 4
And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the Lords house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills, and all nations shall flow unto it.
And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the house of the God of Jacob, and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths, for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.
And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people, and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks, nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.Revelation 19:11, 15
And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse, and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations, and he shall rule them with a rod of iron, and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.Jeremiah 31:33 to 34
But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel, After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts, and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord, for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord, for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.Romans 11:25 to 27
For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits, that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
And so all Israel shall be saved, as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob,
For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.Zechariah 14:9
And the Lord shall be king over all the earth, in that day shall there be one Lord, and his name one.
Revelation 11:15
And the seventh angel sounded, and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ, and he shall reign for ever and ever.
Psalm 72:8, 11
He shall have dominion also from sea to sea, and from the river unto the ends of the earth.
Yea, all kings shall fall down before him, all nations shall serve him.Philippians 2:10 to 11
That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth,
And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.Daniel 7:13 to 14
I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him, his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.Matthew 25:31 to 34
When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory.
And before him shall be gathered all nations, and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats,
And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.in Luke 5.8, Peter says to Jesus, “Depart from me, for I am a sinful man” which is simply an expression of awe and unworthiness. It has nothing to do with being cast away from God forever. When Jesus says it, he is also not always talking about the final judgement.
Not the verse I was referencing I was speaking on Matt 7:21-23 where the Jesus is speaking.
21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will tell me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, didn’t we prophesy in your name, in your name cast out demons, and in your name do many mighty works?’ 23 Then I will tell them, ‘I never knew you. Depart from me, you who work iniquity.’
Here the Jesus is definitely speaking of the “final judgment” and condemning those who thought they were doing what the Jesus taught, but apparently didn’t meet his expectations and are thus condemned. How does one know if they are truly doing “the will of my Father”? Because if you aren’t, you’re condemned.
In fact, the Jesus tells us in John 14:12
12 Most certainly I tell you, he who believes in me, the works that I do, he will do also; and he will do greater works than these, because I am going to my Father.
Yet, these who are doing these “greater works”, the Jesus says he doesn’t know. By the way, when was the last time you raised someone from the dead, caste out a demon, or healed someone? According to the Jesus you should be able to do this and more or maybe you just don’t believe in the Jesus enough.
Are we thinking yet???
He must rebuild the Temple in Jerusalem
“…and I will set my sanctuary in their midst forever and my tabernacle shall be with them..” (Ezekiel 37:26 – 27)At last check, there is NO Temple in Jerusalem. And worse, shortly after the Jesus died the Temple was destroyed! Just the opposite of this prophecy!
Just because Ezekiel mentions the temple “in the midst of them” does not imply “the building of a third temple, not at all.
The word of God in Revelation 7 tells us this speaking of the great Multitude
of the redeemed:
9] After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
[10] And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sits upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
[11] And 👉all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshiped God,
[12] Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honor, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.
[13] And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, 👉What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
[14] And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, 👉These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
[15] Therefore👉 are they before👉 the throne of God,👉 and serve him day and night👉 in his temple:👈 and 👉he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.👈
[16] They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.
[17] For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.and Rev.21
[1] And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
[2] And I John saw the holy city,👉 new Jerusalem👉, coming down from God out of heaven👈, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
[3] And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold,👉 the tabernacle of God is with men, and👉 he will dwell with them,👈 and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
[4] And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
[5] And👉 he that sat upon the throne said, Behold,👉 I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
[6] And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
[7] He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.This is the Holy City, the Heavenly Jerusalem, which will descend from heaven to settle on Earth, which will be renewed and inhabited by the saints of the Most High.
And God will dwell with them; He will be their God, and they will be His people for eternity.
Rev.22
[1] And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
[2] In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
[3] And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:
[4] And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.
[5] And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.Unfortunately the Jesus fails on being a member of the tribe of Judah; biologically he isn’t connected to the line of David because the spirit is the one who fathered him (Luke 1:26-35, Matt 1:18). It is of the seed of David the Messiah is to be born of (2 Sam 7:12-17, I Chron 11-14). Lineage is associated with the father and not the mother (Num 1:2,18); so Luke’s genealogical account is irrelevant as it points to Mary and Matthew’s is beyond messed up by including Jeconiah in the lineage.
Even if the Jesus did/does everything else the Messiah is to do, by missing the mark on being from the tribe of Judah, how can he be the true Messiah spoken of in the Tanakh? He didn’t fulfill exactly what G-d said the Messiah was to be and do.
You mentioned if I take the entire Bible as true, then all the prophecies written in the Tanakh are considered fulfilled. I no longer consider the “christian bible” as truth. I have found the NT to be lacking in everyway; from the misappropriation of prophecy by the writer of Matthew to the twisting of passages quoted from the Tanakh to lies of Paul, each of these I have gone into depth on in the past.
I’m still waiting for someone…anyone…to explain what the Jesus meant by “must happen soon” and “I come quickly”; passages quoted from the first and last chapter of Revelation from the mouth of the Jesus. I would also like some insight into more words the Jesus spoke when he told his disciples “Most certainly I tell you, there are some standing here who will in no way taste of death, until they see the Son of Man coming in his Kingdom.” Yet, everyone of those standing before the Jesus died and never saw his return. Which reminds me of how to tell if someone is a false prophet “21 Now if you say to yourselves, ‘How can we tell that a message is not from the LORD?’ 22 whenever a prophet speaks in my name and the prediction is not fulfilled, then I have not spoken it; the prophet has presumed to speak it, so you need not fear him.” (Deut 18:22)
Prove the Jesus is the Messiah prophesied in the Tanakh. I’ve already given a list the Messiah it to do a couple post back that the Jesus never fulfilled and to say the messiah is to come twice, still waiting for that passage too. You have a belief system that is unverifiable and have to rely on “faith” that everything taught is truth.
Continuing on:
Once as the lamb of God who was sacrificed for mankind’s sins. And returns as a reigning king to setup the Kingdom of God on earth.
What verse states the Messiah was to die for the sins of mankind from the Tanakh? I believe I asked you this question once before and never received a response.
Read Exodus 32:30-35, where Moses was going to take on the sins of the people and G-d said NO; they would be responsible for what they did against G-d and brought a plague on them.
Read Duet. 24:16 “The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.”
Read Jer 31:29-30 “29 In those days they shall say no more, The fathers have eaten a sour grape, and the children’s teeth are set on edge. 30 But every one shall die for his own iniquity: every man that eateth the sour grape, his teeth shall be set on edge.”
Read ALL of Ezekiel 18 and find where G-d says someone can take on the sins of another!
It was G-d who said no one can take on the sins of someone else, the innocent are NOT responsible for the guilty; did our unchanging G-d suddenly change? So the innocent Jesus couldn’t take on the sins of mankind and if he does, that makes G-d a liar, HE said no one could take on the sins of another.
When did G-d say human sacrifice was good and acceptable? Lev 18:21 “You shall not give any of your children to offer them to Molech, and so profane the name of your God: I am the LORD.” Or in Jer 7:31 “And they have built the high places of Topheth, which is in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, which I did not command, nor did it come into my mind.” But you’re going to tell me it’s acceptable to G-d for HIS “son” because he offered his body as a sacrifice, even though G-d commanded against it.
What else does G-d say about human sacrifice Deut 12:31 “You must not do so toward Yahweh your God, because of every detestable thing they have done for their gods Yahweh hates, for even their sons and their daughters they would burn in the fire to their gods.” G-d says this form of worship is detestable. To tell mankind human sacrifice is wrong, but then to “sacrifice his son” is a double standard.
In Deut 18:10 “There shall not be found among you one who makes his son or his daughter go through the fire…” This is human sacrifice and none among Israel was to practice the act.
Continuing on:
using the Tanak alone, this is how some will treat the messiah which perhaps you yourself may be included:
no beauty that we should desire him
despised and rejected
not esteemed
The stone the builders rejected has become the chief cornerstone.
They will look on me whom they have pierced and mourn for him.The first three are from Isa 53; not about the Jesus. This is the last of four “Servant Songs” and the “servant” (no “suffering” servant) spoken of is Jacob and Israel. We find this by reading the previous chapters instead of parachuting onto one chapter and claim it for the Jesus.
The four phrase is from Ps 118:22; did you read the entire Psalm and put this verse in context it was written? The psalmist describes the way in which God’s deliverance reversed his circumstances. This has nothing to do with the Jesus and it isn’t pointing to the future; it’s speaking of the distressing moments the psalmist is going thru, even though he was like a discarded stone used in building, G-d restored him as the buildings cornerstone. It’s a metaphor for how important you are to G-d.
The fifth phrase is from Zech 12:10; you need to finish the passage, “as one wails over an only child, and they will grieve bitterly over him as one grieves bitterly over a firstborn.” Did the city, as the verse states, mourn the death of the Jesus? The imagery given in the NT makes it sound like it was the city who demanded his death; from the people demanding the release of Barabbas to the scorning the Jesus received on the way to being crucified. Once again, nothing to do with the Jesus.
None of these passages you sited are a reference to the Jesus so I have no concern of them applying to me in a negative sense as to how I would/will treat the Messiah. What I would find interesting, if we are still alive when the Messiah does come and the world suddenly is united, how many christians would reject him calling him the antichrist.
To say that Mary’s Son isn’t a biological descendant of David because He didn’t have a biological father isn’t reasonable. The child was to be the seed of the woman and from a virgin.
LU
To say that Mary’s Son isn’t a biological descendant of David because He didn’t have a biological father isn’t reasonable. The child was to be the seed of the woman and from a virgin.
Unfortunately the Jesus fails on being a member of the tribe of Judah; biologically he isn’t connected to the line of David because the spirit is the one who fathered him (Luke 1:26-35, Matt 1:18). It is of the seed of David the Messiah is to be born of (2 Sam 7:12-17, I Chron 11-14). Lineage is associated with the father and not the mother (Num 1:2,18). Thus making EXTREMELY reasonable the Jesus ISN’T of the line of David and Solomon and therefore ISN’T the true Messiah.
Does the woman have a seed???? To be born of a virgin and impregnated by a god/spirit would make the Jesus a demigod…not to Greek or Roman is it??
Just because Ezekiel mentions the temple “in the midst of them” does not imply “the building of a third temple, not at all.
You may want to read Ezk chapters 40-48; sounds to me like a physical temple.
This is the Holy City, the Heavenly Jerusalem, which will descend from heaven to settle on Earth, which will be renewed and inhabited by the saints of the Most High.
And God will dwell with them; He will be their God, and they will be His people for eternity.
Once again you are quoting from Revelation, a book where the time frame that it was written has been brought into question and some are finding it was most likely written before the destruction of the second Temple and not late in the first century. Never mind it was written by a person who was expecting the Jesus to return in their lifetime.
Read Rev 11:1-2, it sounds like John is speaking of the second Temple as the outer courtyard has been given over to the gentile (where could the gentile go…that’s right the outer courtyard) OR there’s a third temple!
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