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@ DT
5For a child has been born to us, a son given to us, and the authority is upon his shoulder, and the wondrous adviser, the mighty God, the everlasting Father, called his name, “the prince of peace.” הכִּי־יֶ֣לֶד יֻלַּד־לָ֗נוּ בֵּן נִתַּן־לָ֔נוּ וַתְּהִ֥י הַמִּשְׂרָ֖ה עַל־שִׁכְמ֑וֹ וַיִּקְרָ֨א שְׁמ֜וֹ פֶּ֠לֶא יוֹעֵץ֙ אֵ֣ל גִּבּ֔וֹר אֲבִי־עַ֖ד שַׂר־שָׁלֽוֹם:
6To him who increases the authority, and for peace without end, on David’s throne and on his kingdom, to establish it and to support it with justice and with righteousness; from now and to eternity, the zeal of the Lord of Hosts shall accomplish this.לְםַרְבֵּ֨ה) הַמִּשְׂרָ֜ה וּלְשָׁל֣וֹם אֵֽין־קֵ֗ץ עַל־כִּסֵּ֚א דָוִד֙ וְעַל־מַמְלַכְתּ֔וֹ לְהָכִ֚ין אֹתָהּ֙ וּֽלְסַֽעֲדָ֔הּ בְּמִשְׁפָּ֖ט וּבִצְדָקָ֑ה מֵֽעַתָּה֙ וְעַד־עוֹלָ֔ם קִנְאַ֛ת יְהֹוָ֥ה צְבָא֖וֹת תַּֽעֲשֶׂה־זֹּֽאת
https://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/15940/jewish/Chapter-9.htm
DT wrote
Explain why Ahaz would have needed to know about a messiah figure 700 years into the future when he’s about to be invaded. Wouldn’t death and captivity be a little more pressing? The christian belief doesn’t hold water and 9:6 isn’t a prophecy of a coming “messiah”; it’s about an immediate king who would lead and deliver them.
me
If it is a question of an immediate king who would lead and deliver them, and if this king,
according to Isaiah:authority rests on his shoulder; the wonderful counselor, the mighty God, the eternal Father, has called him by the name “Prince of Peace.”
THIS KING CERTAINLY DID NOT GO UNNOTICED.IT’S SURPRISING THAT YOU DON’T MENTION HIM.
IF WE READ VERSE 6
6To him who increases his authority and peace without end, on the throne of David and over his kingdom, to establish and uphold it with justice and righteousness, from this time forth and forevermore, the zeal of the Lord of hosts will accomplish this.
There is talk of 👉peace without end… To establish the kingdom of David and to uphold it with law and justice, now and forever.
Who then is this extraordinary king you never mention, whom Isaiah describes?
🙏
You may want to read the last sentence of what I wrote; I explicitly state the king I’m speaking of and give passages for one to read concerning this king, the son of king Ahaz.
Since you went to chabad.org to get the verses in question, did you read the commentary?
Can you answer why Ahaz would need to hear about a “messiah” (for clarity, going back to chapter 7) 700 years into the future when his kingdom (Judah) is about to be invaded? What comfort would there be in knowing of this distant future “messiah”?
Is Hezekiah the child foretold in Isaiah 9:6-7?
I would say that he don’t fulfills Isaiah 9:5-7. This prophecy is so glorious in its wording:
“The authority is upon his shoulder, and the wondrous adviser, the mighty God, the everlasting Father, called his name, ‘the prince of peace.'”
Hezekiah was a good king, yes, but the wording of the prophecy is so excellent that it cannot be attributed to Hezekiah.
And then there’s verse 7:…establish and uphold it (David’s kingdom) with justice and righteousness, 👉from this time forth and forevermore…👈
Manasseh proves the opposite.
I see you didn’t read anything and are still smashing the “Ellen White Believe Button”; please provide a single passage in the NT where the Jesus is called any of these titles “wondrous adviser, the mighty God, the everlasting Father” OR the “prince of peace.” Additionally 9:7 says that there will be no end of the government of this person, and no end to the peace. How can this refer to Jesus –what earthly government did he establish when he was here and what peace did he bring while he was here? Even your the Jesus said he wasn’t bringing peace but to divide (Luke 12:49-56); the Jesus was to tear apart families over the belief in him and this is your “god.”
Let’s look at another Hebrew translation:
For a child has been born to us, A son has been given us. And authority has settled on his shoulders. He has been named “The Mighty G-d is planning grace; The Eternal Father, a peaceable ruler”— In token of abundant authority And of peace without limit Upon David’s throne and kingdom, That it may be firmly established In justice and in equity Now and evermore. The zeal of the lord of Hosts Shall bring this to pass.
Again, it speaks in the present of a king who has been given authority to lead and as you read these names applied to this king, they are a reference to G-d. It is G-d who brought peace to Israel during the reign of Hezekiah and we find this out with the last phrase of verse 7 “the zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.”
Why make it so difficult???
@DT
I didn’t mention Jesus in my last post.
I’m simply saying that the text of Isaiah prophesies something magnificent, more magnificent than the kingship of Hezekiah, something that will last 👉for eternity.
5For a child has been born to us, a son given to us; and the authority is upon his shoulder, and the wondrous adviser, the mighty God, the everlasting Father, called his name, “the prince of peace.”
6To him who increases the authority, and for peace without end, on David’s throne and on his kingdom, to establish it and to support it with justice and with righteousness; 👉from now and👉 to eternity, the zeal of the Lord of Hosts 👉shall accomplish this.Is there something wrong with this Bible version?
Why are you quoting from a Hebrew translation? This translation destroys how king Jimmy translates it.
Did you finally leave the shackles of E. G. White?
Who do you think it speaking of if it isn’t Hezekiah or the Jesus?
What does the “now and to eternity” mean; are you understanding it with modern language or with the understanding of the time it was written?
Bathsheba “May my master, King David, live forever!”
Nehemiah “said unto the king, May the king live forever”
Daniel “said unto the king, May the king live forever”
Daniel “replied to the king, “O king, live forever!”
Daniel “to the king and said to him, “O King Darius, live forever!”
Does “forever” in these contexts have the same meaning as the modern definition of being for eternity? This is a sign of reverence to David, Artaxerxes, Nebuchadnezzar, and Darius – none of which lived forever.
Let’s keep it simple…
6To him who increases the authority, and for peace without end, on David’s throne and on his kingdom, to establish it and to support it with justice and with righteousness; 👉from now and👉 to eternity, the zeal of the Lord of Hosts 👉shall accomplish this.
And for you, FOR how long should this last?
A few years, a few centuries, endless???the zeal of the Lord of Hosts 👉shall accomplish this.
And for you, FOR how long should this last? A few years, a few centuries, endless???
You aren’t helping your cause as I have already answered your question thru examples. Again, this king spoken of in the previous verse canNOT be the Jesus (christian belief, including yours) as there is a starting point of “now”, in Isaiah’s time; the Jesus didn’t show up for another 700 years. The “forever” is the lifetime of the one spoken of in the previous verse (child/son). I even gave scriptural examples of “forever” being used and it was used out of reverence, referring to the lifetime of the individual it addressed. Did you really not understand this or are you being obtuse?
When this passage is placed in the greater context, starting in chapter 7 and what’s happening in Judah, it is G-d who will accomplish all from appointing a righteous king to protecting Judah from invasion to bringing peace to the nation.
Did you read any of the chapters about Hezekiah (II Kings 16-20, II Chron 28-32, and Isa 36-39)?
You’ve avoided my question, who do you think it’s speaking of if it isn’t Hezekiah or the Jesus?
Can you explain why this verse is never referenced in the NT as being supportive of the Jesus?
To him who increases the authority, and👉 for peace 👉without end, on David’s throne👈 and on his kingdom, to establish it and to support it with justice and with righteousness; from now and to eternity, the zeal of the Lord of Hosts shall accomplish this.
Did Hezekiah’s reign bring about peace WITHOUT END? Yes or no?
This is the passage you posted and have been using during our conversation.
5For a child has been born to us, a son given to us, and the authority is upon his shoulder, and the wondrous adviser, the mighty God, the everlasting Father, called his name, “the prince of peace.”
6To him who increases the authority, and for peace without end, on David’s throne and on his kingdom, to establish it and to support it with justice and with righteousness; from now and to eternity, the zeal of the Lord of Hosts shall accomplish this.
Apparently you agree verse 5 is in the past tense (shame on the king Jimmy for corrupting it) and speaks of a child who will become king…fantastic! From the words written we can also finally put to rest the glorious titles are a reference to G-d and NOT the Jesus…Beautiful!!
You also understand the phrase “from now and to eternity/forever” as being the individuals lifetime and NOT the end of time itself, because you just shifted to another phrase in the verse – “for peace without end.” Peace has been given to this king, which there will be no end, for he had peace on all his sides, and this “end” is not an expression of an end to eternity, but there will be no boundaries. On the throne of the kingdom of David shall this peace be justice and righteousness that Hezekiah performed.
To answer your question, “Did Hezekiah’s reign bring about peace WITHOUT END?” Yes, with the above understanding; after the defeat of Assyria, peace was in the land of Judah until he died. You have to understand the concept of forever as it is applied in their day, with their understanding.
Another great example to help with the “forever” concept is in I Sam 1:22 “But Hannah did not go up, for she said to her husband: Until the child is weaned, then I shall bring him, and he shall appear before the Lord, and abide there forever.” This child is Samuel and is he still alive today, obviously no; but he did serve G-d his entire life.
Who do you say this passage is about?
For me, endless peace is an eternal peace that will never end.
This has not yet happened on this earth.
But
Daniel 7: tells us
13] I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like👉 the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came 👉to the Ancient of days👈, and they brought him (son of man) near before him.(Ancient of day)
[14] And there was given him(son of man)👈 dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, 👉should serve him(son of man): 👈his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.[27] And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an 👉everlasting kingdom👈, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.
Who is this son of man?
Who do you say the Isa 9:5-6 passage is about? Let’s finish this goal before we move it.
This isn’t about moving on; it’s still the central issue.
The Prince of Peace in Isaiah 9 IS THE SON OF THE MAN IN DANIEL 7.
That’s what I believe.
Which is whom!!!!
Me
This is the One who is in the fiery furnace with the three faithful Hebrews.(Daniel 3:25)
Nothing like continuing to evade and dodge the question; are you afraid to say the name of the Jesus? Are you ashamed to proclaim his name? Is it because you know none of the verses support that belief when placed in the context they are written? So sad!
Isaiah is speaking of a son that has already been born…Hezekiah and NOT the Jesus, sorry to burst your bubble. Reread what I wrote earlier.
Your Daniel passage (son of man chapter 7) IS referring to the true Messiah, just NOT the Jesus (christian messiah).
Your other Daniel passage (chapter 3) referencing “like a son of gods”, “like the Son of G-d”, “like a son of the gods”, “resembles the son of a god”, “ like a son of the gods”, or “like that of a god.” The fourth person in the furnace wasn’t the Jesus, it was an angel. Let’s take king Jimmy’s translation, where he says “like the Son of G-d” (capital “G”, all others small “g”); this is in the singular, because there was one additional person seen in the furnace. If there was more than one, it would have read “Sons of G-d”; if one where to look up the phrase “Sons of G-d”, it would be found in Job 1:6, 2:1, and 38:7. In each of these passages it is a direct reference to angels (more corruption of king Jimmy?). OR Nebuchadnezzar was making a comparison as there was no other way to explain what he was seeing; who can live in a furnace that is seven times hotter than it should be unless there was a “divine” intervention. So the fourth person in the furnace was an angel and NOT the Jesus; this is a christian creation and isn’t supported by the Tanakh.
Have anymore guesses you want me to shoot down?!? When will anyone begin verifying what they have been told is truth?!?!!?
No, I am not ashamed of Jesus Christ. I only show you that pre-incarnate Jesus is very present in OT time and it is he who came to save the three faithful Hebrews.
The KJ Bible is faithful.It’s not a problem that you believe the fourth man is an angel. Nebuchadnezzar says so too, but he also specifies:
HIS ANGEL
28] Then Nebuchadnezzar spoke, and said, Blessed be the God of Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, who hath sent 👉his angel, and delivered his servants that trusted in him
His Angel is the Angel of the Lord, He is God and has the power of God
👇
Genesis 16
10] And the angel of the Lord said unto her, 👉I will multiply thy seed 👈exceedingly, that it shall not be numbered for multitude
I only show you that pre-incarnate Jesus is very present in OT time
What you’ve shown is your belief; you have given no proof, just religious doctrine and interpretation. Christianity teaches the Jesus is the “angel of the Lord” spoken of in the Tanakh; so who where all the other angels in heaven if they weren’t the Lord’s angels?
In nothing you wrote did you explain or support the inference of the Jesus in Isa 7:14, 9:6, Daniel 3:28, 7:13; religion made these assumptions and you believe it. Can you prove these passages are about the Jesus?
Is the fear of “hell” that great it keeps you believing the words of man over the words of G-d?Hi, I’ve been busy and will be busy for a couple of weeks for the holidays. I just have time for a couple of comments. I believe that the translation of NASB1995 is the most accurate and is what I use. I also believe that Isa 9:6 should be translated as in the NASB1995:
Isa 9:6 For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us;
And the government will [fn]rest on His shoulders;
And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.
Isa 9:7 There will be no end to the increase of His government or of peace,
On the throne of David and over his kingdom,
To establish it and to uphold it with justice and righteousness
From then on and forevermore.
The zeal of the LORD of hosts will accomplish this.And finally, you left Christianity two years ago, would you compare yourself to a Pharisee?
LU
I believe that the translation of NASB1995 is the most accurate and is what I use. I also believe that Isa 9:6 should be translated as in the NASB1995:
So, because you “believe” the 1995 NAS translation is the more accurate translation, it is?!!? What about the the Hebrew; is it less accurate? I would reason the Hebrew would be the most accurate as it’s the original language the Tanakh was written in (except Daniel).
In the Hebrew, Isa 9:6 is translated in the past tense, pointing to an existing child. So everything after that would have to be a reference to that child; never mind the context this passage is written in. You need to site the passages (NOT interpretations or inferences) in the NT where the Jesus is called “Wonderful Counselor, Mighty G_d, Eternal Father, or Prince of Peace.” Can you prove this is a reference to the Jesus in Isaiah or is this also a “belief” thing?
The reality is everything we discuss is moot until you can answer the most important question, is the Jesus the true Messiah and can you prove it according to the Tanakh? Did the Jesus fulfill what was spoken about the Messiah? If he did, what exactly did he fulfill and if the Jesus misses just one “criteria” can he still be considered the Messiah? If he didn’t fulfill all that was spoken, he couldn’t be the Messiah.
you left Christianity two years ago, would you compare yourself to a Pharisee?
Is this the Pharisee of the first century or the christian version? I’ve already said I would lean more to Noahide; you have yet to say what faith you identify with. Please explain how Noah was righteous, what did Abraham do to be called righteous and G-d’s friend, why was Job blameless and upright, Enoch never saw death and didn’t they have a “mediator” or the “law” to come before G-d? Let’s not forget the city of Nineveh, where they cried out to G-d and where forgiven, no mediator or “law.” In short, why would I or anyone need the Jesus when we can come before our creator. Do your children have to go thru someone to speak to you? Make the connection and turn back to G-d. It really is that simple!
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