Non-trinity believing church?

[Proclaimer]

Quote (jb2u @ Mar. 28 2013,09:07)

Oh Lightenup (please read all of my words)… “the gods that I believe exist” as you say are the same ones that God claims exists. Psalm 82 God refers to judges as “gods.” 1 Cor 8:5 God states “there be gods many, and lords many.” But we are talking about a belief in a trinity. Let's start at Deut 6:4 God states “Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord.” The word “one” hear is ehad (echad) in Hebrew. Remember what I said about the Bible being translated from the original inspired word of God? “One” can be one set or one thing/person/place, etc. How do we know if it is talking about one set or one person? Well, we have to look at the context of the verses. God clearly is stating that HE is One. He speaks of His and Him, not we and us!!! So, God is stating that HE is ONE. Mark 12:29 Jesus reaffirms Deut 6:4 by stating it is the first of all commandments!! How do we know that Jesus does not consider Himself as “part” of a triune God? Well, let's see what he says in scripture.. John 17:3 Jesus states, “That they may know YOU the ONE true GOD and Jesus Christ whom you have sent.” So Jesus is saying He is NOT the same as the one true GOD. Well that is interesting!! Mark 10:17-18 When someone addresses Jesus as good teacher. He asks why do you say that I am good? Only God is good. This person went on by just addressing Jesus as only teacher. Jesus did not take offense and say “why don't you call me good for I am God.” No, instead Jesus beheld him with love knowing the thing he lacked was not the knowledge that there is one God, but that he trusted in his riches and not in the ONE true God. 1 Cor 8:6 Do you believe the words of God? God says, “But to us there is but ONE God, the FATHER, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.” So God, the Father, claims that HE is the ONE true God and Jesus is Lord. Isaiah 11:2-3 God says that Jesus will fear the LORD. How can Jesus be a part of the triune God and fear the triune God? You have to at least think about this statement by God. Do you think that God knew that people would proclaim the trinity? Of course, and that is why He said over and over, there is but ONE God and I am Him, the Father alone!! What is God's nature? He is omnipotent and omniscient. Additionally, God can NOT lie. Can we agree here? Please answer!! Considering this… Mark 13:4-32 Jesus states that he does not know when the end will come, only the father knows. Now notice that He is making it clear who God is. It is the Father. He doesn't say God only knows, so that trinitarians can perverse His words. No, He declares that only the Father knows. Also notice that the Holy Spirit does not know either!! Now if Jesus does not know when he will come back THEN He is not the one true omniscient God. Right? If he is lying about not knowing, then he is NOT God because God can not Lie. Right? Now before you say that I am calling Jesus a liar, I am NOT. I believe every word that He said!! It is not me that is changing HIS words. If He says that He does not know when He is coming back then I believe it with all of my heart and mind!! Matt 20:20-23 Jesus when asked to put the two sons, one on his left and one on the right in the new kingdom. What does Jesus say? He says that The position of who is on the left and right hand is NOT His to give but it is His Father's decision. We could also make the same argument about Him needing to ask His Father for angels or that everything that He does is giving to him by His Father, God. We are back at a tough argument. We have to face the truth, as God is the truth. The Word of God is the truth. Right? OK…Now if Jesus does not have the power or authority to say who will be at his left and right side in the new kingdom THEN He is not the one true omnipotent God. Right? If he is lying, then he is NOT God because God can not Lie. Right? Again, I am not the one that claims that He is lying. That would be a trinitarian belief; and, as I have stated, I believe with all my heart exactly what the Bible says about God and Jesus. John 14:28 Jesus says “For my Father is greater than I.” Now if God is a triune God then how can Jesus being a part of the same ONE true triune God be lesser than any of the other parts of the one triune God. And again, Jesus left out a third part apparently, the Holy Spirit. Trinitarians will have us believe that they are all three Co-Eternal and Co-Equal!!!! 1 Cor 11:3 God states, “the head of Christ is God.” How can the head of Christ be the triune God when Christ is a part of the triune God? How can the head of Christ be the Father if they are Co-equal??? Maybe I am using too much scripture as proof!! Trinitarians want to say it is a “mystery” and yet the false religion in revelations is called “mystery.” I wonder if there is a connection? Anyway, trinitarians need to accuse Jesus as a liar in order to make their case be true; whereas, non-trinitarians can explain, using scripture how the word is being misinterpreted, such as when Jesus is called God by God. Well we know in Hebrew Jesus is being called “elohim” and we know that elohim means “mighty one” and well Jesus is a mighty one and so he is “elohim” but not the one true God. That being said, trinitarians have to say well when Jesus said that only his Father is the one true God, then he was not really being Honest. That is a scary, scary thing to say!! And you are worried that I am making a wrong turn!! Speaking of “turning”, let's consider when did what was taught by Jesus and his disciples “turn” to the trinity. Around the 4th century someone that was not even a born again Christian formed a Council and decided that God was a trinity. And, we KNOW that Bible verses have been CHANGED to try to “prove” that the trinity is real!! You know that the Jews do not believe that God is a trinity, right? And, if we read the Bible, we know that the Jews had some great debates about these teachings that Jesus was now teaching them. They debated about…should the law be followed, saved through belief not works, should the gentiles be preached to, etc. But notice never did these Jews say…what is this triune God that you now speak of??? Why is that? Because Jesus and the disciples never taught the trinity concept!!! Surely, that controversy would be in the Bible. Surely God, who wants us to know Him, would have made it clear. The one thing that He made clear is that there is ONE true God and that HE sent his Son so that we could know the Father, the one true God. Look, I do not doubt that you can make the case for the trinity using the Bible, but only IF you contradict certain parts of the Bible. As Jesus said, scripture can not be broken. Consider, scripture reveals scripture. No scripture in the dark reveals scripture in the light, but scripture in the light reveals scripture in the dark. Seek and ye shall find. He who looks to find the truth will find the truth. He who seeks to prove their point regardless of the truth will find untruth!! If I am right and the trinity is false doctrine, why would satan introduce this to the world? Well, maybe just maybe, he knows that Jesus told us that in order to have salvation we must believe in God and that He sent his only begotten Son to die for our sins. Now, I do not claim to know who is saved and who is not, BUT what if people that believe in the trinity, by default, do not believe that God sent His Son, as is necessary in order to be saved. What they believe is that God sent Himself to be sa crificed!! That is not really believing that He sent his only begotten Son. Does that mean you are not saved? Well, according to Jesus it does and that would explain why satan could have created this idea of the trinity. Furthermore, if Jesus is a part of this triune God, was he just pretending to be scared as He prayed to His Father in the garden before being taken to be crucified? Certainly not; but, we know God fears nothing. So, what does that say about Jesus? Was He just putting on a show that he was tempted in the wilderness? God is not tempted by nothing or no one. As Jesus said, “It is said, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.” Again, did Jesus just pretend (lie) to not know certain things? Did He just pretend that He had no power Himself, but only what the Father gave Him? Was He lying when He said that His Father was the one true God? I say NO. He is exactly who He said He was…the Son of God. His power was given to him by God, His Father and ours. Jesus was telling us the truth when he said the ONE true God is His FATHER!! The only ones denying His words are those that believe in a triune God!! I have asked you not to argue with me, but I thank you for leading me to share this with those that may be in the dark. I did not want this and no doubt those that are blind and have a hardened heart will not see what is right in front of their face, but blessed are those that see this and KNOW that there is but ONE GOD, the FATHER, and ONE LORD Jesus!!! Amen.

Good stuff jb2u.

I look forward to reading other posts from you.

[Proclaimer]

Quote (jb2u @ Mar. 28 2013,10:46)

Well I conceded that things can be one set or one thing. As for the Shema….the Jews believe that it clearly states that God is one and not one set!!! Now my point was not just that he used I, He, Him. Those were in addition to. The context of those verses that He wanted Israel to know is that God is One. That IS the context of those verses. Additionally he uses I, He, and Him. You can use singular pronouns to represent those in oneness such as Israel, but if you are using the word ONE with the singular pronoun then it means ONE. Note the same use of echad “one” is used for Adam and Eve…and THEY became echad (one). SEE, it does not say and He became ONE. No, it says, THEY became ONE; therefore, you know that they became one union and NOT one being. We know this because of the use of the pronoun THEY. It is good to be corrected, but only if it is accurate!!

May God bless you for this.

[jb2u]

Thank you Ed J and t8 for the welcome.

As I said, I really do not like to argue. My goal was really just to see if someone knows of a church that teaches the truth. Who knew it would lead to 11 pages!!

[kerwin]

Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 28 2013,02:12)

Kerwin, Jesus is both the Root and the Shoot…God and Man…and is worthy of my worship. Through Him I was created and redeemed from my sin. He sits on the white horse in Revelations and with His own arm and His own righteousness, He wins the final battle. Kerwin, are you to make a covenant to God through another god?

LU,

The new covenant is with Jehovah, Jesus is the pioneer and mediator of it.

There would be no need of a covenant if Jehovah was the mediator.

If you are going to call anyone but Jehovah, god then the pioneer and mediator is the one to call such.

The only way to make a covenant with the god is through the god that was given authority over all things in heaven and on earth. He was not given authority over or made equal the one god.

[kerwin]

Quote (jb2u @ Mar. 28 2013,04:40)

Thank you Ed J and t8 for the welcome. As I said, I really do not like to argue. My goal was really just to see if someone knows of a church that teaches the truth. Who knew it would lead to 11 pages!!

jb2u,

There is nothing wrong with reasoning as God's servants often do it.

[Ed J]

Quote (jb2u @ Mar. 28 2013,09:40)

Thank you Ed J and t8 for the welcome. As I said, I really do not like to argue. My goal was really just to see if someone knows of a church that teaches the truth. Who knew it would lead to 11 pages!!

Hi JB2U,

WE  “are the church”  you are looking for.
Here's some inspirational Pastors for you:  (Link)

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[mikeboll64]

Quote (jb2u @ Mar. 27 2013,13:07)

I have asked you not to argue with me, but I thank you for leading me to share this with those that may be in the dark.

Hey t8,

Does that sound familiar?    Without the impetus (Kathi), those brilliant words would have never been written by jb.

jb, I very rarely read long posts.  I just skim over them quickly.  But I was glued to your posts and read every word slowly.  You write well, and display a well-founded knowledge of what the scriptures teach.  And best of all, you actually provide scriptural support for everything you claim.

Well done.  I'm with t8 in that I hope to read more of your insights.  Don't consider it “arguing”.  Instead, consider it sharing your light with those who are in the dark.  And who knows, with time and a little effort, even Kathi may someday come to realize that she has been in the dark for a long time. (Although there is no guarantee, there has to be more of a chance of her seeing the light WHEN we post things like you posted, than there is if we remain silent. So keep speaking up. You are helping other children of God when you do.)

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Jeremy @ Mar. 26 2013,20:43)

I was in a wilderness all alone which was how I was feeling, the mountains where all the different churches in the world and then the paths where all straight paths which would have lead me straight to one of the church`s, but not one path was different to the other, but then I was told without a word being said look up you dont have to go down any path come straight to me.

Thanks for sharing that testimonial, Jeremy. Powerful stuff!

[david]

Quote (Ed J @ Mar. 28 2013,12:11)

Quote (jb2u @ Mar. 28 2013,09:40) Thank you Ed J and t8 for the welcome. As I said, I really do not like to argue. My goal was really just to see if someone knows of a church that teaches the truth. Who knew it would lead to 11 pages!! Hi JB2U, WE  “are the church”  you are looking for. Here's some inspirational Pastors for you:  (Link) God bless Ed J (Joshua 22:34) http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

Hi Ed,

He is looking for a church that teaches the truth.

How can “we” be that church when “we” disagree about what is truth?

There are thousands of pages that bear witness to that fact. He most certainly doesn't think everything I believe is truth and he most certainly doesn't think everything you believe is truth. So, how could “we” (those who post here) ever be a church that teaches truth? Thousands of pages of disagreement and disunity and division in thought show that “we,” as a group, do not teach truth.

There is no actual church that teaches exactly what this person wants to believe.

David.

[david]

From page 7:

T8, the reason I first stepped onto this website was that I was wanting to know who else believed the trinity teaching was false.

Over the years, I've seen at least 5 or 6 others come on here and ask the very question raised about a church that doesn't believe in the trinity.

T8, Although you have stated it numerous times, I don't know if there is a thread devoted to the idea that the body of Christ is a diverse group of believers that don't all believe the same things, that aren't united in belief, or action, or attitude, but only really united by the fact that they believe in Jesus. This is a very politically correct idea, but I don't see how it can be true given what scripture says. Any kingdom divided, falls. If true Christians believe pretty much anything, and have very different standards of conduct, and do very different things, how can it really be said that they are all following Christ? Jesus of course said there would be weeds, false Christians.

I'm wondering if you could create a thread devoted to this idea of the body of Christ, the true church, being individual Christian, found in Babylon the great.

(I'm not looking for you to ad hominem me, or attack what you think my beliefs are, as if that would prove you right. I'm simply looking for you to make your case)

[david]

“I love the church environment.”–jb2u

hi Jb.

You will find almost no one on this forum who loves the church environment. I would say this forum is 95% anti-church, and perhaps, rightfully so.

But really, the word translated “church” just means “congregation,” and a congregation is a congregated people, not a building. People can gather anywhere, even on an Internet site. But, I am trying to figure out how some can think that a very divided group, some believing the trinity, some teaching against, some believing in hellfire, and some against, etc, can be “the true church,” teaching truth.

David.

Let the personal attacks begin.

[2besee]

Quote (Ed J @ Mar. 28 2013,14:11)

Quote (jb2u @ Mar. 28 2013,09:40) Thank you Ed J and t8 for the welcome. As I said, I really do not like to argue. My goal was really just to see if someone knows of a church that teaches the truth. Who knew it would lead to 11 pages!! Hi JB2U, WE  “are the church”  you are looking for. Here's some inspirational Pastors for you:  (Link) God bless Ed J (Joshua 22:34) http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

Hi Ed,
By “We” you are seriously not meaning that this forum is some type of a Church, right? lol.

It does not feel that good, that is for sure.

[jb2u]

Thank you for the kind comments. Any revelation from me is from God only. Like I said, I am no Bible scholar, but I love the word of God.

Yes, I know that the we are the church. 1 Cor 12:27

And I know that where ever two or more of His people are gathered, there He is. Matt 18:20

And I know that Christ is not in a building that we built with our hands. Hebrews 9:24

David…
What I meant by “I love the church environment” is that I love hearing the word of God. I love being with like minded Christians. I love singing Hymns. I can't sing. I sound horrible, but in church I can sing open and proudly!! I love seeing new people find salvation in Jesus Christ!

Mike…
I apologize for the long posts. I understand not wanting to read long posts!! I thank you for the comments and for reading, though.

[terraricca]

Quote (david @ Mar. 28 2013,11:19)

“I love the church environment.”–jb2u hi Jb. You will find almost no one on this forum who loves the church environment.  I would say this forum is 95% anti-church, and perhaps, rightfully so. But really, the word translated “church” just means “congregation,” and a congregation is a congregated people, not a building.  People can gather anywhere, even on an Internet site.  But, I am trying to figure out how some can think that a very divided group, some believing the trinity, some teaching against, some believing in hellfire, and some against, etc, can be “the true church,” teaching truth. David. Let the personal attacks begin.

Hi David

Was this not like that in Corintia .??? In Paul ,s time,

[terraricca]

Quote (jb2u @ Mar. 28 2013,15:32)

Thank you for the kind comments. Any revelation from me is from God only. Like I said, I am no Bible scholar, but I love the word of God. Yes, I know that the we are the church. 1 Cor 12:27 And I know that where ever two or more of His people are gathered, there He is. Matt 18:20 And I know that Christ is not in a building that we built with our hands. Hebrews 9:24 David… What I meant by “I love the church environment” is that I love hearing the word of God. I love being with like minded Christians. I love singing Hymns. I can't sing. I sound horrible, but in church I can sing open and proudly!! I love seeing new people find salvation in Jesus Christ! Mike… I apologize for the long posts. I understand not wanting to read long posts!! I thank you for the comments and for reading, though.

Same here ,love God,and his words,God his my spiritual father ,and his son is like my elder brother,they both are my closest family ,of cause then comes my family in the flesh,

[kerwin]

Quote (david @ Mar. 28 2013,11:19)

“I love the church environment.”–jb2u hi Jb. You will find almost no one on this forum who loves the church environment.  I would say this forum is 95% anti-church, and perhaps, rightfully so. But really, the word translated “church” just means “congregation,” and a congregation is a congregated people, not a building.  People can gather anywhere, even on an Internet site.  But, I am trying to figure out how some can think that a very divided group, some believing the trinity, some teaching against, some believing in hellfire, and some against, etc, can be “the true church,” teaching truth. David. Let the personal attacks begin.

David,

I simply view us all as students whose goal should be seeking the true gospel of Christ.

The church as recorded in Scripture had differences in its members.

[Lightenup]

Quote (jb2u @ Mar. 27 2013,15:46)

Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 28 2013,07:28) 3. You say that one 'set' of something doesn't have singular personal pronouns to go with it. I disagree completely. The church is a 'she.' Israel is 'my,' 'I,' even in the Shema, Israel is singular and 'hear' is the singular verb with it yet Israel is one as a 'set' as you call it. Example: Numbers 21:2 And Israel vowed a vow to the LORD and said, “If you will indeed give this people into my hand, then I will devote their cities to destruction.” Here a compound unity called “Israel” uses singular pronouns such as 'my' and 'I.' So, you need to stop right there and start over because I have just proven that argument as inaccurate. Sorry, but being corrected is a good thing. Ttyl! Well I conceded that things can be one set or one thing. As for the Shema….the Jews believe that it clearly states that God is one and not one set!!! Now my point was not just that he used I, He, Him. Those were in addition to. The context of those verses that He wanted Israel to know is that God is One. That IS the context of those verses. Additionally he uses I, He, and Him. You can use singular pronouns to represent those in oneness such as Israel, but if you are using the word ONE with the singular pronoun then it means ONE. Note the same use of echad “one” is used for Adam and Eve…and THEY became echad (one). SEE, it does not say and He became ONE. No, it says, THEY became ONE; therefore, you know that they became one union and NOT one being. We know this because of the use of the pronoun THEY. It is good to be corrected, but only if it is accurate!!

jb2u,
Jehovah is one…plurality in unity. And I have shown you that a unity uses singular personal pronouns and singular verbs at times. A unity also uses plural pronouns and plural verbs at other times.

Here is another example:

Rev 19:7
“Let us rejoice and be glad and give the glory to Him, for the marriage of the Lamb has come and His bride has made herself ready.”

Bride-singular
herself-singular
made ready-singular verb

Now I ask you, is the bride just one person??? Normally that is the way we think about brides…a bride is just one person.
This bride is different though.

Plurality in unity!

Shall we talk about the church being one body???

1 Corinthians 10:17 Because there is one loaf, we, who are many, are one body, for we all share the one loaf.

we – plural
are – plural
one body – singular

Plurality in unity.

So there you have the church as singular:
bride
herself
making ready

but in another context the church as plural pronouns and a plural verb.
we
many
are
one body

Plurality in unity!

Romans 12:5

so we, though many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another.

we
are
one

And Jesus said:
John 17:22 I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one— 23I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete unity.

we
are
one

“that they may be one…even as…we are one!!”
they may be one…AS…we are one

How are 'they' one? Plurality in unity!
How are the Father and Son one? Plurality in unity!

Jehovah, the eternal unity…
Deut 10:17 For the LORD your God is God of gods and Lord of lords, the great, the mighty, and the awesome God, who is not partial and takes no bribe.

Jesus=the Lord of lords

1 Cor 8:6
yet for us there is one God , the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord , Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.

The church sees Jehovah as one God and one Lord together with the Holy Spirit.

Plurality in unity!

People here have left the church because they don't understand the plurality in unity of Jehovah.

Jehovah has plurality in unity.

His chosen people have plurality in unity…Israel as one nation.

His church has plurality in unity as the bride and body of Christ.

Most Christians have no problem with accepting Jehovah as plurality in unity. It is a theme throughout the Bible…God's Word.

BTW, the Jews understood there were two powers to Jehovah, they called the YHVH that appeared and spoke to them,'the Word of YHVH.' Check out the Targums.
for some info in case you want to be 'sharpened:'
https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….;t=4388

I know jb2u, you just want to find a church that doesn't see the plurality in unity of Jehovah and that is why you are here. So why do you keep the discussion going if you don't really want to be challenged?

I say, go back to church where there is plurality in unity in the body just as there is plurality in unity in the Godhead. Seek out those who know Hebrew and Greek. Find a Christian Hebrew ministry to Israel and ask your questions to the Hebrew scholars. You might be amazed how much you really don't know and how much Jesus looks like the Jehovah of the OT.

You will find more help doing that than being here where Job's friends are 'advising' him. (Job's friends talked very big too but ended up with mud in their face.)

[Proclaimer]

Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 28 2013,13:21)

Quote (jb2u @ Mar. 28 2013,04:40) Thank you Ed J and t8 for the welcome. As I said, I really do not like to argue. My goal was really just to see if someone knows of a church that teaches the truth. Who knew it would lead to 11 pages!! jb2u, There is nothing wrong with reasoning as God's servants often do it.

I agree.

It is useless arguments that we need to avoid.

But it is important to refute false doctrine as testified here.

Titus 1:9
He must hold firmly to the trustworthy message as it has been taught, so that he can encourage others by sound doctrine and refute those who oppose it.

Arguing over genealogies and the like is fruitless, but debates are healthy especially when there is so much lies to contend with. And with 2000 years of men changing the truth of God into a lie, we need to test all things to see if they are so.

[Proclaimer]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 28 2013,16:08)

jb, I very rarely read long posts. I just skim over them quickly. But I was glued to your posts and read every word slowly. You write well, and display a well-founded knowledge of what the scriptures teach. And best of all, you actually provide scriptural support for everything you claim.

I am with you there Mike.
A long post, but worth the read.

[jb2u]

Lightenup…
So you do not answer the questions that I asked and did not understand the use of “one”.

The bride is many, but where is the word “one”?
Now we know “one” here is “one set” because we see the “we”.

“That they may be one as we are one.
Do you see it? WE, so again, they are one set, NOT one God!

WE though many, are “one” body in Christ.

[Author]

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