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Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 15 2011,17:59) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 16 2011,09:40) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 15 2011,16:44) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 16 2011,07:22) Wow, so Jesus is not your Savour?
Hi Keith,Isaiah 19:20
It will be a sign and witness to the LORD Almighty in the land of Egypt. When they cry out to the LORD because of their oppressors, he will send them a savior and defender, and he will rescue them.Jesus is the vessel through whom his God chose to save us. Who is the savior: the king God sent to rout the enemy, or the God who sent him in the first place?
There are many saviors in the scriptures, including Saul, David, and Jesus. But although there are many saviors, there is but “one true Savior” – the One who sent and empowered each and every one of the other ones.
Jesus is one of the “other ones”, for he was clearly SENT by his God to be our savior.
mike
MikeJesus is not our Savour by proxy because it is by his own Blood and life that he saved us and redeemed us for himself.
You do see the difference don't you?
WJ
So, if God had decided to have Abraham actually kill Isaac as some sort of sacrifice to atone for us, then Isaac would have been God Almighty?
Jesus is the one who OBEYED the COMMAND of his God and came as a sacrificial lamb. God is the One who SACRIFICED something of His own………….His beloved Son. Jesus sacrificed something that was a given to him freely in the first place………….his life. (Please don't take this as me making light of Jesus' sacrifice…..I'm not. I'm only calling a spade a spade.)
Keith, were all the other lambs that were sacrificed by the Israelites over the years also God Almighty because THEIR blood was shed to atone for man's sins?
mike
How rediculous Mike?God didn't ask Isaac to give his life did he? And guess what, Abraham didn't ask Isaac to give his life either.
God asked Abraham to give his son as a sacrifice!
The scriptures says Jesus willingly left his place of Glory next to the Father and “emptied himself” by taking on the likeness of human flesh, the Word that was with God and was God.
How soon do we forget?
Besides the blood of Isaac or the lambs would not have saved “all mankind for themselves“, you do see the difference don't you Mike? Your carnal comparisons fall so short Mike.
Why do you insist on bringing Jesus down to the level of other men?
WJ
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 15 2011,17:52) Keith, how can YHVH be the “God OF gods” if there aren't any other gods?
Hi MikeOh You are calling them gods now and not leaders or rulers?
Well he is God of gods because all others are merely mortal men, or idols, who are worshipped and served as gods created in the hearts of carnal men who believe in other gods.
Thats why the translators render it god and not God, context Mike!
But YHVH says there are no other gods or “gods like him”, or none beside him, ah but wait there is Jesus who is in everyway like him and is seated at his right hand, not beneath him or above him, having all things and ruling with all judgment as God. Hello, lights on but nobody home?
WJ
Bump For Mike
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 15 2011,16:35) Quote (Kangaroo Jack Jr. @ Jan. 15 2011,08:27) BUMPED FOR MIKEBOLL: TO ALL:
Mikeboll has dogmatically claimed that Jesus is a god who “came into being” after YHWH. Keith has corrected Mike about this many times but Mike has given Keith a deaf ear. Isaiah 43:10 explicitly says that before and after YHWH there was no God “formed.” The LXX uses the Greek “ginomai” for “formed.” Note the word in bold in the Septuagint translation of Isaiah 43:10 below. It is the Greek “ginomai” which means “to come into being.”
43:10 γενεσθε μοι μαρτυρες καγω μαρτυς λεγει κυριος ο θεος και ο παις ον εξελεξαμην ινα γνωτε και πιστευσητε και συνητε οτι εγω ειμι εμπροσθεν μου ουκ εγενετο αλλος θεος και μετ' εμε ουκ εσται
No god came into being before or after YHWH. Therefore, Jesus did not come into being but was always “with God” (John 1:1). Mike's only option is to deny that Jesus is a god at all. This would be a step up for him. For denying that Jesus is a god at all is better than confessing Him as a god in the “same sense” as satan.
the Roo
But that's not REALLY what Isaiah 43:10 says, is it Jack?Isaiah 43:10 NET ©
You are my witnesses,” says the Lord, “my servant whom I have chosen, so that you may consider and believe in me, and understand that I am he. No god was formed before me, and none will outlive me.It would be illogical and untrue for God to say there would be no “els” formed after Him when scripture is full of “els” who were formed after him, right? How else can He be the “El of els” if there are no other els to be the El of?
mike
MikeOf course there will be no god to out live him because they are mortals and not gods at all.
The problem you have with the verse is the Greek word for “before” is “paniym” which means face or presence.
The TWOT states… “
This particular word always occurs in the plural, perhaps indicative of the fact that the face is a combination of a number of features. As we shall see below, the face identifies the person and reflects the attitude and sentiments of the person. As such, “panim” can be a substitute for the self or the feelings of the self. In the Bible the “face” (along with the other parts of the body) is described not merely as an exterior instrument in one's physiology, but rather as being engaged in some form of behavioral pattern, and is thus characterized by some personal quality. It is only natural that the face was considered to be extraordinarily revealing vis-à-vis a man's emotions moods and dispositions.“
So in other words God's attitude is in his presence or before his face no god will be formed.
Mike, don't forget all the other scriptures that say there is no god but one, and non other beside him, and non other like him.
Blessings Keith
Keith said:
Quote Besides the blood of Isaac or the lambs would not have saved “all mankind for themselves”, you do see the difference don't you Mike? Your carnal comparisons fall so short Mike.
Keith,The anti-trins bring Christ down to the level of the type. The type was just the mere shadow. Christ is the substance. There can be no comparison.
All that the type was Christ was the TRUE.
Jack
Quote (Kangaroo Jack Jr. @ Jan. 19 2011,12:29) Mike said to Keith: Quote You say WE have “two gods”? We acknowledge that the scriptures are loaded with many who have been given the title “god” by one person or another.
Exactly Mike! They were GIVEN the TITLE God. That is, they were APPOINTED to rule over God's people. But there was no god “formed” besides God or that “came to be” after Him (Is. 43:10).Do you comprehend now?
Roo
JackIsa 43:10 is not speaking of gods being formed before him (in time) it it is the Hebrew word “paniym” which means face or presence.
Mike looses this one because like many other scriptures this one says there is “No God but One”. Its amazing how the Bible being a Monotheistic book about God has so many Polytheist that say they believe in it, (or them meaning other gods) or do they?
It goes like this “I believe in ONLY ONE TRUE GOD, but wait I do believe in other “True Gods”.
Amazing!Blessings Keith
Mike said;
Quote It would be illogical and untrue for God to say there would be no “els” formed after Him when scripture is full of “els” who were formed after him, right? How else can He be the “El of els” if there are no other els to be the El of?
Mike,You're such a shallow thinker. All other Els were APPOINTED as Els. There were no Els “formed” besides God or who “came to be” after Him. Therefore, Christ could not have been a “begotten” El as you say.
The NET translation is wrong and even the NET's footnote agrees with the Septuagint.
Train yourself to think Mike.
Jack
Quote (Kangaroo Jack Jr. @ Jan. 20 2011,04:36) Mike said to Keith: Quote Keith, is there more than one “powerful ruler” mentioned in the scriptures? Are they all YHVH God Most High?
But they were APPOINTED powerful rulers and not “formed” besides God or “came to be” after Him (Is. 43:10).Right Mike?
Jack
Wrong Jack. Deborah was formed after God Almighty. And she was also an elohim. Scripture says so.mike
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 20 2011,11:10) Quote (Kangaroo Jack Jr. @ Jan. 19 2011,12:29) Mike said to Keith: Quote You say WE have “two gods”? We acknowledge that the scriptures are loaded with many who have been given the title “god” by one person or another.
Exactly Mike! They were GIVEN the TITLE God. That is, they were APPOINTED to rule over God's people. But there was no god “formed” besides God or that “came to be” after Him (Is. 43:10).Do you comprehend now?
Roo
JackIsa 43:10 is not speaking of gods being formed before him (in time) it it is the Hebrew word “paniym” which means face or presence.
Mike looses this one because like many other scriptures this one says there is “No God but One”. Its amazing how the Bible being a Monotheistic book about God has so many Polytheist that say they believe in it, (or them meaning other gods) or do they?
It goes like this “I believe in ONLY ONE TRUE GOD, but wait I do believe in other “True Gods”.
Amazing!Blessings Keith
Keith,I did not say that Isaiah 43:10 says that there were no gods formed before God. I said that it says that there were no gods formed besides God.
Mike loses on two counts. The first count is as you say. There is no god but one which is our God. The second is that Mike thinks that the word “god” when applied to others refers to their ontological existence when it actually has reference to their being appointed as “gods.”
There were gods that were appointed to be gods. But there is none who were “formed” besides Him or that “came to be” after Him.
Jack
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 20 2011,10:56) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 15 2011,17:52) Keith, how can YHVH be the “God OF gods” if there aren't any other gods?
Hi MikeOh You are calling them gods now and not leaders or rulers?
Well he is God of gods because all others are merely mortal men, or idols, who are worshipped and served as gods created in the hearts of carnal men who believe in other gods.
Thats why the translators render it god and not God, context Mike!
But YHVH says there are no other gods or “gods like him”, or none beside him, ah but wait there is Jesus who is in everyway like him and is seated at his right hand, not beneath him or above him, having all things and ruling with all judgment as God. Hello, lights on but nobody home?
WJ
Really? Then who are the gods with God in the assembly of gods in Psalm 82:1? Who are the gods that David sings the praises of God to in Psalm 138:1?Why does Paul say there are many who are called gods?
Oh, that's right. Because the word elohim didn't always refer to God Almighty. And since the word COULD refer to those who were neither God Almighty nor “false elohim”, then you have NO PROOF WHATSOEVER to say that when the same word was use of Jesus, it meant HE was God Almighty.
You have IMAGINATION because you want so badly for it to be so. But that is all.
Face it boys. God said no elohim existed before He existed, nor will any elohim outlive Him. For it to mean anything else would mean that the other elohim mentioned in scripture, like Deborah, didn't really exist. Yet we know she did exist. We know she was “formed” by God, like every other living thing in existence. So face it, it MUST be the way NETNotes translates it or we have a scriptural contradiction.
And knowing from SCRIPTURE that one who was called “elohim” didn't have to be God Almighty, then there is absolutely no way you can prove Jesus is God Almighty simply because he was called “elohim”. You'll have to do better, boys. What else ya got?
peace and love,
mikeQuote (Kangaroo Jack Jr. @ Jan. 20 2011,11:13) Train yourself to think Mike.
How many years have you been studying scritpure, Jack? It's been 2 and a half for me. Yet I “outthink” you on a daily basis. For example:If others besides God Almighty were called “elohim”, then that ABSOLUTELY means that being called “elohim” did not dictate that you were God Almighty. So when Jesus is called “elohim”, while one could GUESS that he is being called God Almighty, there is no PROOF of such a thing.
So you go ahead and GUESS until the cows come home. And I'll be right here waiting for the PROOF.
peace and love,
mikeMike
What are you spamming post now? Context Mike. Why don't you address my post about none formed in his “presence or face”?
You and others are Polytheist face it boys! The Bible teaches there is “ONLY ONE TRUE GOD AND NONE BESIDE HIM OR LIKE HIM”!
The Bible is not a book of gods.
WJ
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 19 2011,19:27) If others besides God Almighty were called “elohim”, then that ABSOLUTELY means that being called “elohim” did not dictate that you were God Almighty. So when Jesus is called “elohim”, while one could GUESS that he is being called God Almighty, there is no PROOF of such a thing.
MikeContext! Tell us in what sense is Jesus “Not God Almighty” since all the authority and power of an infinite God including all judgment is in his hands.
Is Jesus “Elohim”, “Theos” and Almighty or not?
It can't be just because you say so Mike, please give us a reason why he is not since “God” can mean God Almighty?
WJ
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 20 2011,11:13) Quote (Kangaroo Jack Jr. @ Jan. 20 2011,04:36) Mike said to Keith: Quote Keith, is there more than one “powerful ruler” mentioned in the scriptures? Are they all YHVH God Most High?
But they were APPOINTED powerful rulers and not “formed” besides God or “came to be” after Him (Is. 43:10).Right Mike?
Jack
Wrong Jack. Deborah was formed after God Almighty. And she was also an elohim. Scripture says so.mike
No Mike! It says that YHWH “raised up” (quwm) judges (2:16). It does not say that YHWH 'formed' (yatsar) judges.Think Mike! Think!
Jack
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 20 2011,11:33) The Bible teaches there is “ONLY ONE TRUE GOD AND NONE BESIDE HIM OR LIKE HIM”!
Yeah, that's true Keith. Remind me, WHO, SPECIFICALLY do the scriptures say that One IS?mike
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 19 2011,20:07) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 20 2011,11:33) The Bible teaches there is “ONLY ONE TRUE GOD AND NONE BESIDE HIM OR LIKE HIM”!
Yeah, that's true Keith. Remind me, WHO, SPECIFICALLY do the scriptures say that One IS?mike
MikeI believe they are One, even Jesus said so. But you have to have or believe in “other gods” to fit your theoloy don't you?
WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 20 2011,11:38) Context! Tell us in what sense is Jesus “Not God Almighty” since all the authority and power of an infinite God including all judgment is in his hands.
Look Keith,It is YOU who goes against common sense by asserting a son can be the same being as the father who begat him…….among many other things.
But now you want me to prove the negative too?
Okay, but just this once. How do the scriptures say Jesus came upon this “authority and power”? How did he get it?
How's that for proving a negative? Jesus can't be God Almighty because God Almighty would have already HAD all power and authority so no one would ever have to GIVE it to him. Plus, because we know it was HIS GOD who GAVE it to him, there's a double whammy for ya! Because God Almighty doesn't have a God. Jesus does. He says it's the same God we all have.
peace and love,
mikeQuote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 19 2011,20:15) Okay, but just this once. How do the scriptures say Jesus came upon this “authority and power”? How did he get it?
MikeSo you answer a question with a question?
He left it all, remember? John 1:1-14 – Phil 2:6-8
He left his previous Glory that he shared with the Father in the beginning and was co-creator of all things that were created for himself.
The fact that the Father gave it back to him proves nothing. He already had it as the Word that was with God and was God.
Now once again prove in what sense is Jesus not God and not Almighty!
WJ
Keith,
Does scripture say God GAVE Jesus “power and authority”? Does scripture say that Jesus already had this much power and authority before he emptied himself? No. So that's just a guess on your part, right?
mike
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 19 2011,20:23) Keith, Does scripture say God GAVE Jesus “power and authority”? Does scripture say that Jesus already had this much power and authority before he emptied himself? No. So that's just a guess on your part, right?
mike
MikeIt should be enough for you that he was co-creator with the Father as the Word that was with God and was God in John 1:1-3.
All things were made by him and for him! If he is not God and Almighty then what is he?
Blessings Keith
Quote (Kangaroo Jack Jr. @ Jan. 20 2011,11:40) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 20 2011,11:13) Quote (Kangaroo Jack Jr. @ Jan. 20 2011,04:36) Mike said to Keith: Quote Keith, is there more than one “powerful ruler” mentioned in the scriptures? Are they all YHVH God Most High?
But they were APPOINTED powerful rulers and not “formed” besides God or “came to be” after Him (Is. 43:10).Right Mike?
Jack
Wrong Jack. Deborah was formed after God Almighty. And she was also an elohim. Scripture says so.mike
No Mike! It says that YHWH “raised up” (quwm) judges (2:16). It does not say that YHWH 'formed' (yatsar) judges.Think Mike! Think!
Jack
So Deborah was the only human being in existence that was formed by someone OTHER THAN God?God formed the universe and EVERYTHING in it.
Think, Jack, think!
mike
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