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Quote (thethinker @ July 01 2009,11:36) bodhitharta said: Quote All though it was tampered with, God even protected it enough to not even mention the words TRINITY, TRIUNE and other words that would have been almost impossible to discredit if they were allowed to get them in there and yet you think it is the most important thing of all to tell people and God does not even let it get in there once. bd,
You said that Paul used guile and decit and I even bragged about it. Therefore, you cannot appeal to Paul. You say that God protected it enough not to mention the words “trinity” or “triune.” How do you know? the Scriptures were tampered with as you say, then maybe the words “trinity” and “triune” were in the Bible but were removed by biased people. Can't you see that your reasoning is circular? You can't say the Bible was protected from certain words. For if it was tampered with then the words you mention may have been in the Bible and then deleted.You cannot invoke “proof texts” for your beliefs from a document which you say has been tampered with unless It's that simple. If the Bible has been tampered with, the whole document must be trashed?
thinker
Actually a tampered document can be used to prove itself keep in mind to tamper with something means a little here and a little there because a massive change would bo immediately noticeable. But look above in your quote and see if you cannot determine that your post was tampered with and at the same time can prove itself.Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 30 2009,11:58) Hi TC,
Scripture says he was anointed with the Holy Spirit and power.[Acts 10.38]
It says there too that God was with him but you think that verse is untrue?
Nick,Here is where you use your logic. You think that because the Bible says that God was in Christ and was with Christ, it is impossible for Christ to be God. That logic would work if you were not referring to GOD. Jesus can be God at the same time as having God in and with Him. GOD IS MORE POWERFUL THEN A HUMAN. Just because we cannot be all those things at once doesn't mean God can't be. You limit God.
TC27
Hi TC,
Do you think weak greek logic can be admixed with the words of God and still be truth?
No let all mankind be silent and let scripture speak.Nick,
You twist the Scriptures to fit your beliefs. So you speak more than you let Scripture speak. You cannot seem to understand a simple verse that calls Jesus God and Savior. (Titus 2:13)
*By the way, you never did tell me how I misunderstand that verse, or can you?
Hi TC,.
You say I twisted Acts 10.38?
Then please, to substantiate you case against me, would you kindly expound this verse for us.Nobody who espouses trinity on this site will go near it.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 30 2009,19:52) Hi TC,.
You say I twisted Acts 10.38?
Then please, to substantiate you case against me, would you kindly expound this verse for us.Nobody who espouses trinity on this site will go near it.
Nick,I have already explained this, but for you I will do it again.
Acts 10:38:
“how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power, who went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with him.”
So no one will go near it huh? Well I will go inside it for you. We can all agree that Jesus was anointed. We see in Hebrews that God can anoint himself, but even if we didn't, Jesus was fully God and fully man. Therefore, he could be anointed. Now, because God has three persons, each one performs a different task (this does not in any way say that God cannot work without three persons, but that it is his choice of nature to do so). Therefore, because each person performs a different task, each one needs to so something different. God the Father had the responsibility of fulfilling his promise by sending a perfect sacrifice to earth to pay for the sins of his people. Since only God is perfect, he had to anoint a part of himself to pay the price because a human was not good enough. Therefore, Because God is all-powerful, he had the ability to do this with success. But just sending Jesus to do the work was still not enough because people would not understand the sacrifice. That is when God sent his Spirit to minister to the hearts of believers and give them understanding. So you see, God sent his perfect self to die, his Spirit to aid in understanding, and the Father was there WITH them because where else would he be if not with the parts that make him who he is? God can be with AND of because he is God.
TC27
Quote (TrinitarianCalvinist27 @ July 01 2009,16:12) Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 30 2009,19:52) Hi TC,.
You say I twisted Acts 10.38?
Then please, to substantiate you case against me, would you kindly expound this verse for us.Nobody who espouses trinity on this site will go near it.
Nick,I have already explained this, but for you I will do it again.
Acts 10:38:
“how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power, who went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with him.”
So no one will go near it huh? Well I will go inside it for you. We can all agree that Jesus was anointed. We see in Hebrews that God can anoint himself, but even if we didn't, Jesus was fully God and fully man. Therefore, he could be anointed. Now, because God has three persons, each one performs a different task (this does not in any way say that God cannot work without three persons, but that it is his choice of nature to do so). Therefore, because each person performs a different task, each one needs to so something different. God the Father had the responsibility of fulfilling his promise by sending a perfect sacrifice to earth to pay for the sins of his people. Since only God is perfect, he had to anoint a part of himself to pay the price because a human was not good enough. Therefore, Because God is all-powerful, he had the ability to do this with success. But just sending Jesus to do the work was still not enough because people would not understand the sacrifice. That is when God sent his Spirit to minister to the hearts of believers and give them understanding. So you see, God sent his perfect self to die, his Spirit to aid in understanding, and the Father was there WITH them because where else would he be if not with the parts that make him who he is? God can be with AND of because he is God.
TC27
So God fully died? The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit?Hi TC,
God anoints Himself?
From Hebrews?The God of Jesus, ……THY GOD, ….anointed him.
He is our God too if you are joined with Jesus.
If not why go it alone like BD?Quote (Paladin @ July 01 2009,11:04) Quote (TrinitarianCalvinist27 @ June 30 2009,02:19) Quote (Paladin @ June 29 2009,04:38) Quote (TrinitarianCalvinist27 @ June 29 2009,08:59) Hello everyone! I am new to this site, and I have been reading the conversation about whethor or not Christ is God. I will say this. To deny that Christ is God, is to deny Christianity. There are many places in Scripture that specifically show us that Christ and the Father are one. To deny this is to deny Christ's true identity.
Example # 1:
Isaiah 60:16 states: “You will drink the milk of nations and be nursed at royal breasts. Then you will know that I, the LORD, am your Savior, your Redeemer, the Mighty One of Jacob.”
Titus 1:4 states: “To Titus, my true son in our common faith: Grace and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Savior.”
~The key word in these two verses is “Savior.” In the Isaiah verse, God the Almighty is being referred to as Savior. However, Jesus Christ is called Savior in the Titus verse. How then can there be two saviors if there is only one God. This can only mean that Jesus is God because the Bible would otherwise contradict itself. Jesus is God existing in a different person to fulfill a different purpose.
Example # 2:
Genesis 49:24 states: “But his bow remains steady, his strong arms stayed limber, because of the hand of the Mighty One of Jacob, because of the Shepherd, the Rock of Israel.”
John 10: 11, 16 states : “I [Jesus] am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep. I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd.”
~ They key word in these passages is “shepherd.” In the John verse, Jesus clearly states that he is the good shepherd and that there is to be only ONE shepherd. However, we see that God is referred to as the Shepherd in Genesis. Either the Bible is lying when it says that there is to be one shepherd, or Jesus is God.Example #3:
Exodus 3:14 states: “God said to Moses, 'I AM WHO I AM.' This is what you are to say to the Israelites, 'I AM has sent me to you.' “
John 8:58 states:” 'I tell you the truth,' Jesus answered, 'before Abraham was born, I am!' “
~ Here we see the key words being “I AM.” God calls himself by the same name in Genesis, that Jesus calls himself in John. Also, if Jesus was fully man and not God at all, how could he possibly have existed before the time of Abraham? The verse in John clearly states that he existed BEFORE the time of Abraham which can only mean he is God because a man would not live that long, especially since we know the human birth of Jesus took place long after the death of Abraham. Jesus existed outside of the human body in which he came to Earth.
These are just a few examples that I pulled together, and there are MANY more in Scripture that support the true identity of Christ, which is God.
TC27
Hello TC27;So while aknowledging “Christ” you ignor what the name means?
Christ means “anointed.” Jesus was the anointed prophet of God, raised from among his brethren.
Two things trinitarians ignore completely.
God anoints men.
God is not anointed.
Paladin,You say that God only anoints men. Correct. Trinitarians do not deny that Christ was fully man. He was fully God AND fully man. So your point does not change anything.
TC27
He cannot be fully man, who is mortal, and fully God who is immortal. It is a contradiction.He is called the seed of Woman, [Gen 3:15]
seed of Abraham, [Gal 3:16]
seed of David, [Rom 1:3]
he is NOT called seed of God.Saints ARE called seed of God.
John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.1 Peter 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the logos [word] of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his [sperma] seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
1 John 4:7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.
1 John 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.
1 John 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
1 John 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.
Saints are not God. They are children of God, begotten by the logos of God.
The saints are fully man, and fully seed of God. That doesn't make us God.
To say that Christ is God is to deny that the Father is the only true God; denies God is greater than the son, which Jesus affirms; denies that Jesus was a form of God, which is affirmed by Paul [Phil 2:6]; denies Jesus emptied himself and demands that equality with God Jesus did not think was his by right of plunder [Phil 2:6].
Paladin……..You have rightly stated it , its amazing that no one has counterdcted what you have posted, Here, The truth is always powerful, so it easer for them to just aviod the issues tehn deal with them brother. IMOpeace and love to you and yours…………………gene
If God can give us life after our bodies die than I would imagine he could do the same for himself if he wanted to. Face it the abilities of God go far beyond our comprehension so why do you chase your tails trying to figure out exactly how, what, where, when, and why God is. It’s all about faith.
Quote Does that mean we're not supposed to pray to him but only to God through him?
Are there any scriptures that suggest praying to “Jesus?”Quote what about the Holy Spirit? Why does he seem to play such a minor role in the New Testament? THE HOLY SPIRIT HAS NO THRONE (like Jesus or Jehovah)
SECONDARY POSITION IN THE SCRIPTURES / GREETINGS…“May you have undeserved kindness and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.” (Romans 1:7) This is Paul’s standard greeting in his letters to the congregations, as well as individuals to whom he wrote.
In Romans through Thessalonians, the Apostle Paul sends personal greetings from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. The holy spirit is always left out of these greetings— an unbelievable and unexplainable oversight if it were indeed a person or entity coequal with God the Father and Christ!1 CORINTHIANS 1:3
“May YOU have undeserved kindness and peace from God our Father and [the] Lord Jesus Christ.”
2 CORINTHIANS 1:2
“May YOU have undeserved kindness and peace from God our Father and [the] Lord Jesus Christ.”
GALATIANS 1:3
“May YOU have undeserved kindness and peace from God our Father and [the] Lord Jesus Christ.”
EPHESIANS 1:2
“May YOU have undeserved kindness and peace from God our Father and [the] Lord Jesus Christ.”
PHILIPPIANS 1:2
“May YOU have undeserved kindness and peace from God our Father and [the] Lord Jesus Christ.”
COLOSSIANS 1:2
“to the holy ones and faithful brothers in union with Christ at Co·lośsae: May YOU have undeserved kindness and peace from God our Father.”
1 TIMOTHY 1:2
“to Timothy, a genuine child in the faith: May there be undeserved kindness, mercy, peace from God [the] Father and Christ Jesus our Lord.”
2 TIMOTHY 1:2
“May there be undeserved kindness, mercy, peace from God [the] Father and Christ Jesus our Lord.”
TITUS 1:4
“May there be undeserved kindness and peace from God [the] Father and Christ Jesus our Savior.”
James, Peter, and John used similar phrases in the introduction to their letters where they likewise do not mention the holy spirit. Why? Because they were not Trinitarians either.If “the holy spirit” were an integral and personal part of a triune Godhead, then why does “He” not send “His” personal greetings as well?
If there were a third person involved, wouldn’t Paul have surely known about it and included “Him” in his greetings to the congregations?
NO DISTINCTIVE NAME, UNLIKE JEHOVAH AND JESUS, AND EVERYONE ELSELOVE–WE ARE COMMANDED TO LOVE JEHOVAH AND JESUS. WHAT OF THE HOLY SPIRIT?
LOVE–BETWEEN FATHER AND SON. WHAT OF THE HOLY SPIRIT?
LOVE–THE FATHER AND SON, LOVE MAN. WHAT OF THE HOLY SPIRIT?
The holy spirit certainly is portrayed differently than either Jehovah or Jesus.
While many people assert that Jesus is called “god” somewhere between 3-9 times in the Bible and Jehovah is called “God” a thousand times, where is the holy spirit called God?
? Expressions we find in the Bible:
Jehovah your God–455 times
Jehovah the God of–204 times
Jehovah our God–105 times
Jehovah God–50 times
Jehovah their God–39 times
Jehovah my God–40 times
Jehovah his God–29 times
Jehovah the [true] God–8 times.
the [true] God Jehovah–4 times
Jehovah is a God–7 times
Jehovah a God–1 time
Jehovah is in truth God–1 time
Jehovah is God–1 time
Jehovah is my God–1 time
Jehovah is our God–1 timeDoes the Bible ever say: “the holy spirit is my God,” or “holy spirit the God” or “the holy spirit my God”?
No. Why?
DID JESUS FOLLOWERS WORSHIP THE HOLY SPIRIT AS GOD?
No. He told them to worship the Father….God.
If “God” is worthy of worship, and “God” exists in three persons, then shouldn’t each “God” person be worthy of worship? Then why is this idea not found in the Scripture?
WHY DOESN’T THE HOLY SPIRIT KNOW WHAT GOD KNOWS? (Luke 10:22; mark 13:32)
How could the holy spirit be kept in the dark about this very important prophetic event? Are we to believe that it is possible for one member of the Godhead to keep a secret from another member while sharing the same eternal and divine “essence” of “Godself”?A PERSON CAN BE PORTRAYED BY THE IMAGE OF A PERSON–AS JEHOVAH AND JESUS ARE, YET FOR SOME REASON….
Even though we see visions of God as sitting on a throne and Jesus, such representations of God’s holy spirit are never given AND WHENEVER WE LOOK AT SUCH VISIONS, THE HOLY SPIRIT SEEMS TO BE MISSING…FOR SOME REASON.
Daniel, Stephen and John in visions saw representations of the Father and the Son, but never one of the holy spirit.
STEPHEN’S VISION
Acts 7:55, 56 reports that Stephen was given a vision of heaven in which he saw “Jesus standing at God’s right hand.” But he made no mention of seeing the holy spirit.
No holy spirit is mentioned in this vision because it was not any third person of a Trinity.
DANIEL’S VISION
In Daniel chapter 7 Daniel describes a wonderful vision Jehovah gave to him: “the Ancient of Days” on his heavenly throne, with a multitude of angels ministering to him. Daniel saw also “someone like a son of man [Jesus],” who was given “rulership and dignity and kingdom, that the peoples, national groups and languages should all serve even him.” (Daniel 7:9, 10, 13, 14) What, though, about the holy spirit? It is not mentioned as a person in this celestial scene.
JOHN’S VISION
The final book of the Bible—Revelation, (which means: “unveiling, uncovering)—describes other remarkable heavenly visions. The Supreme Being, Jehovah, is depicted there on his throne, and the Lamb, Jesus Christ, is with him. But, again, the holy spirit is not mentioned as a distinct person. (Revelation, chapters 4–6)
And again in Revelation chapter 21, we again see the Father and Christ, but holy spirit is once again not seen.
So even the final Bible book does not reveal that there are three persons in one god. Jesus repeatedly mentioned being at his Father’s right hand. No one is mentioned as being at his Father’s left hand. And nowhere are three divine persons pictured together in scripture.
If “the holy spirit” is a “co-eternal” member of a triune Godhead, it is strange indeed that he seems to have no seat of authority on the final throne.
In contrast to God the Father and Jesus Christ, who are consistently compared to human beings in their form and shape, the holy spirit is consistently represented, by various symbols and manifestations, in a completely different manner—such as wind (Acts 2:2), fire (Acts 2:3; 1 Thes 5:19), water (John 4:14; 7:37-39), oil (Psalm 45:7; compare Acts 10:38; Matthew 25:1-10), a dove (Matthew 3:16) and an “earnest,” or down payment, on everlasting life (2 Corinthians 1:22; 5:5; Ephesians 1:13-14, KJV).
So not only is the holy spirit not seen in vision with Jesus and Jehovah, represented in human form with a throne, crown, etc, instead, the holy spirit, when it is portrayed, is compared to completely impersonal things.
These depictions are difficult to understand, to say the least, if the holy spirit is a person.
It seems whenever there are visions or images given of the Father and Son, for some reason the holy spirit is not seen or represented and definitely not portrayed as a person. Why is that?Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 01 2009,16:18) Hi TC,
God anoints Himself?
From Hebrews?The God of Jesus, ……THY GOD, ….anointed him.
He is our God too if you are joined with Jesus.
If not why go it alone like BD?
How is it that I go alone when I do believe in Jesus I just don't worship him, I worship God.The scripture says that Jesus would be a light unto the gentiles and because I believe what the scriptures say you accuse me of what?
Jesus was sent from God to glorify God and I glorify God in what other way am I supposed to believe in Jesus?
Hi David
Quote (david @ July 01 2009,01:11) Are there any scriptures that suggest praying to “Jesus?” Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all “that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours: 1 Cor 1:2
While they were stoning him, “Stephen prayed, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.” Acts 7:59
We proclaim to you what we have seen and heard, so that you also may have fellowship with us. “And our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son“, Jesus Christ. 1 John 1:3
Tell me how you can have fellowship with him without praying to him?
If you have any encouragement from being united with Christ, if any comfort from his love, “ any fellowship with the Spirit any tenderness and compassion, Phil 2:1
May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and “the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all“. 2 Cor 13:14
You cannot have fellowship with the Father or the Son apart from having fellowship with the Spirit. It is the Spirit that leads us and guides us into all truth. It is the Spirit that comforts us and sheds abroad the Love of God in our hearts. It is the Spirit that brings us to Jesus!
The Spirit of God is subservient to the Father and the Son and he wonderfully flows to us from the Father and the Son and in fact lives in us!
“And hope does not disappoint us, because God has poured out his love into our hearts by the Holy Spirit, whom he has given us“. Rom 5:5
A mere power or force does not Love with Gods love, for God is Spirit and God is Love!
Blessings WJ
WJ, I'm curious how someone such as yourself would understand these words:
EPHESIANS 5:20
“in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ giving thanks always for all things to our God and Father.”COLOSSIANS 3:17
“And whatever it is that YOU do in word or in work, do everything in the name of the Lord Jesus, thanking God the Father through him.”How do you understand the above? How do you apply them in your life or actions?
“If you ask anything in my name, I will do it.” The asking is addressed to Jehovah God—but in Jesus’ name. (John 14:13, 14; 15:16) We petition God that His Son, Jesus, apply his great power and authority in our behalf.
Quote (david @ July 01 2009,01:49) WJ, I'm curious how someone such as yourself would understand these words: EPHESIANS 5:20
“in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ giving thanks always for all things to our God and Father.”COLOSSIANS 3:17
“And whatever it is that YOU do in word or in work, do everything in the name of the Lord Jesus, thanking God the Father through him.”How do you understand the above? How do you apply them in your life or actions?
“If you ask anything in my name, I will do it.” The asking is addressed to Jehovah God—but in Jesus’ name. (John 14:13, 14; 15:16) We petition God that His Son, Jesus, apply his great power and authority in our behalf.
Hi DavidI am curious as to why you don't address the scriptures I quote in response to your question?
Quote (david @ July 01 2009,01:11) “Are there any scriptures that suggest praying to “Jesus?” So you bring up a whole new set of scriptures?
Well as you know David, none of the scriptures you quote contradicts the Trinitarian view. In fact I agree with all of them.
Our fellowship is with the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit!
Do you find that unscriptural?
Blessings WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 01 2009,17:55) Quote (david @ July 01 2009,01:49) WJ, I'm curious how someone such as yourself would understand these words: EPHESIANS 5:20
“in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ giving thanks always for all things to our God and Father.”COLOSSIANS 3:17
“And whatever it is that YOU do in word or in work, do everything in the name of the Lord Jesus, thanking God the Father through him.”How do you understand the above? How do you apply them in your life or actions?
“If you ask anything in my name, I will do it.” The asking is addressed to Jehovah God—but in Jesus’ name. (John 14:13, 14; 15:16) We petition God that His Son, Jesus, apply his great power and authority in our behalf.
Hi DavidI am curious as to why you don't address the scriptures I quote in response to your question?
Quote (david @ July 01 2009,01:11) “Are there any scriptures that suggest praying to “Jesus?” So you bring up a whole new set of scriptures?
Well as you know David, none of the scriptures you quote contradicts the Trinitarian view. In fact I agree with all of them.
Our fellowship is with the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit!
Do you find that unscriptural?
Blessings WJ
WJ,
I will answer your curiosity as to why David did not anwer the set of scriptures you gave. It is called being SELECTIVE. Anti-trinitarians pit the scriptures against themselves.thinker
Quote (Christian Biker @ July 01 2009,16:27) If God can give us life after our bodies die than I would imagine he could do the same for himself if he wanted to. Face it the abilities of God go far beyond our comprehension so why do you chase your tails trying to figure out exactly how, what, where, when, and why God is. It’s all about faith.
CB,
Amen brother! Those who say that God cannot do something are called Gnostics. They were a monkey on the backs of the first Christians and they remain a pain in the tush today. Jesus said they do not comprehend the power of God.thinker
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