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To All,
The New World Translation which is Arain indicates that the Messenger that manifested Himself to Hagar was “actually” Jehovah.Then she began to call the name of Jehovah who was speaking to her: “You are A God of sight,” for she said: “Have I here actually looked upon him who sees me“
The evidence is so compeling and so “in the face” that not even the anti-trinitarian New World Translators could get around it. Hagar said to the Messenger “You are a God of sight.” She said that she had “actually” seen God.
thinker
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Aug. 03 2009,22:16) Hi TT,
Lift your sights a little.
We are searching for useful knowledge.
Just as I figured. You have no reply Nick. All this time you have said that trinitarians hold to the traditions of men. Yet when your Arain traditions are disproven you yourself won't listen. It is staring you in the face.The Messenger said “I will multiply your seed.” Therefore, the Messenger was God. Moses said that the Messenger “who spoke with her” is “Jehovah.” And Hagar said “I have actually seen God.”
thinker
Thinker………So when Jesus said (NO) Man Has seen GOD at anytime , He was lying right?. You Trinitarians will grab any straw you can to try to prove your false doctrines. Amazing, Hagar meant She Had seen the Hand of GOD in Her life not the being , because GOD is not a Being, GOD is SPIRIT (INTELLECT). NO one has seen GOD at any time , But many did see Jesus, Who said no man has seen GOD. Another problem for trinitarians , who think Jesus was GOD. IMO
peace and love………………gene
Quote (Gene @ Aug. 03 2009,11:31) Thinker………So when Jesus said (NO) Man Has seen GOD at anytime , He was lying right?. You Trinitarians will grab any straw you can to try to prove your false doctrines. Amazing, Hagar meant She Had seen the Hand of GOD in Her life not the being , because GOD is not a Being, GOD is SPIRIT (INTELLECT). NO one has seen GOD at any time , But many did see Jesus, Who said no man has seen GOD. Another problem for trinitarians , who think Jesus was GOD. IMO peace and love………………gene
Hi GeneOK, so lets stick to your line of thought Gene.
Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, “HE HATH SEEN THE FATHER“. John 6:46
So now how will you explain away Jesus own words.
When did he see him Gene?
Wasn't it before he made this statement?…
What if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before! John 6:62
This is plain and clear words from Jesus own mouth. How will your appologetics explain them away?
If he is a mere man as you say then Jesus is a liar according to you! for he says he has seen the Father.
What say you?
It is you and the Arianistic and Gnostic teachings that builds the straws Gene!
WJ
Quote (Gene @ Aug. 04 2009,03:31) Thinker………So when Jesus said (NO) Man Has seen GOD at anytime , He was lying right?. You Trinitarians will grab any straw you can to try to prove your false doctrines. Amazing, Hagar meant She Had seen the Hand of GOD in Her life not the being , because GOD is not a Being, GOD is SPIRIT (INTELLECT). NO one has seen GOD at any time , But many did see Jesus, Who said no man has seen GOD. Another problem for trinitarians , who think Jesus was GOD. IMO peace and love………………gene
Gene,
Nonsense! Hagar did not mean the “hand” of God. She said that she saw God. Jacob also saw God face to faceQuote So Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: “For I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.” (Gen. 32:30)
Jacob named the place he wrestled with God “Peniel” because He had seen God face to face. And Hagar said “You are A God of sight,” for she said: “Have I here actually looked upon him who sees me“It says that she “actually looked” upon Jehovah. This wording is from an anti-trinitarinian translation!
When John said that no man has seen God he used a Greek word which may also refer to seeing with the mind and the understanding. John meant that no man has understood God. Then he added, “The only begotten Son who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.”
If men came to “see” God when Jesus explained Him, then they saw God with their comprehension.
Jacob named the place where he wrestled with God “Peniel” becausehe saw God face to face. You have a puny little God Gene. Your God cannot enter into our situatuion and become immanent.
You are the person who is grasping at straws.
thinker
WJ…..So what part of this you don't understand, Joh 1:18 ….> No MAN has seen GOD at (ANYTIME), the only begotten Son, which is (IN) the bosom of the FATHER, he hath declared him. Some translations say disclosed Him. Either way you and thinker seen to disagree with this right. If GOD is a SPIRIT as Jesus said he was, then How do you see Spirit, (Only one way in your minds eye). By GOD revealing Himself to a person. Jesus said…> “PETER WHO DO YOU SAY I AM , THOU ART THE (SON OF THE LIVING GOD) BLESSED ARE YOU SIMON BARJONA , BECAUSE (FLESH AND BLOOD) HAS (NOT) REVEALED THAT UNTO YOU BUT MY FATHER WHO IS (IN) HEAVEN HAS REVEALED IT UNTO YOU, AND I SAY UNTO YOU, YOU ARE PETER AND UPON (THIS ROCK) I SHALL BUILD THE CHURCH AND THE GATES OF HELL WILL NOT PREVAIL AGAINST IT”. Jesus said in other places He gave his disciples GODS words , he never said He was GOD , If he did Show it, surely something so GREAT would have to be declared by Jesus himself. He also said He came (Not to do HIS WILL) but the WILL of Him who sent Him, But you say He is GOD , and scripture says GOD does (ALL) things after the council of HIS (OWN WILL)> But Jesus did not do (HIS) WILL did HE. What you and thinker are giving us is pure Trinitarian delusion and you both are just drawing straws to push a false Doctrine taught by the apostate churches. IMO
peace and love…………….gene
Quote (Gene @ Aug. 03 2009,23:35) WJ…..So what part of this you don't understand, Joh 1:18 ….> No MAN has seen GOD at (ANYTIME), the only begotten Son, which is (IN) the bosom of the FATHER, he hath declared him. Some translations say disclosed Him. Either way you and thinker seen to disagree with this right. If GOD is a SPIRIT as Jesus said he was, then How do you see Spirit, (Only one way in your minds eye). By GOD revealing Himself to a person. Jesus said…> “PETER WHO DO YOU SAY I AM , THOU ART THE (SON OF THE LIVING GOD) BLESSED ARE YOU SIMON BARJONA , BECAUSE (FLESH AND BLOOD) HAS (NOT) REVEALED THAT UNTO YOU BUT MY FATHER WHO IS (IN) HEAVEN HAS REVEALED IT UNTO YOU, AND I SAY UNTO YOU, YOU ARE PETER AND UPON (THIS ROCK) I SHALL BUILD THE CHURCH AND THE GATES OF HELL WILL NOT PREVAIL AGAINST IT”. Jesus said in other places He gave his disciples GODS words , he never said He was GOD , If he did Show it, surely something so GREAT would have to be declared by Jesus himself. He also said He came (Not to do HIS WILL) but the WILL of Him who sent Him, But you say He is GOD , and scripture says GOD does (ALL) things after the council of HIS (OWN WILL)> But Jesus did not do (HIS) WILL did HE. What you and thinker are giving us is pure Trinitarian delusion and you both are just drawing straws to push a false Doctrine taught by the apostate churches. IMO peace and love…………….gene
Hi GeneJust as I thought, more apologetics without addressing Jesus words.
Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, “HE HATH SEEN THE FATHER“. John 6:46
When did he see him Gene?
Wasn't it before he made this statement?…
What if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before! John 6:62
WJ
Hi Gene
Quote (Gene @ Aug. 03 2009,23:35) Jesus said in other places He gave his disciples GODS words , he never said He was GOD If he did Show it, surely something so GREAT would have to be declared by Jesus himself.
He did, if you have ears to hear. Jesus spoke in parables many a times.He said he had many things to show them that they were not able to bear.
He has made it this way so that only those who have ears to hear and eyes to see what the Spirit is saying will know the truth of who he is.
“All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows who the Son is except the Father, and no one knows who the Father is except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.” Luke 10:22
Only the Father can reveal who the Son is and only the Son can reveal who the Father is.
Another statement of equality made by our Great God and Saviour, Jesus Christ!
WJ
WJ………So Jesus said (NO) man Knows the FATHER except the Son (AND) those to who the SON chooses to (REVEAL) HIM TO. So then we can KNOW the FATHER even as the SON DOES , if the son has revealed Him to you. But interestingly we still can not (physically see HIM ) neither can Jesus if you believe He (really) reveals Him to you, what make you think his revelation to us is any different then His revelation IS. The text you quoted does not make (ANY) difference between His and OURS. So the text you quoted does (NOT) prove that Jesus is GOD or that He has any different view of GOD then we who have the Spirit of GOD in them. Forcing text to meet Trinitarian Theology doesn't work WJ. IMO
Peace and love to you and yours………………….gene
Quote (Gene @ Aug. 04 2009,11:58) WJ………So Jesus said (NO) man Knows the FATHER except the Son (AND) those to who the SON chooses to (REVEAL) HIM TO. So then we can KNOW the FATHER even as the SON DOES , if the son has revealed Him to you. But interestingly we still can not (physically see HIM ) neither can Jesus if you believe He (really) reveals Him to you, what make you think his revelation to us is any different then His revelation IS. The text you quoted does not make (ANY) difference between His and OURS. So the text you quoted does (NOT) prove that Jesus is GOD or that He has any different view of GOD then we who have the Spirit of GOD in them. Forcing text to meet Trinitarian Theology doesn't work WJ. IMO Peace and love to you and yours………………….gene
Hi GeneYou dont get it.
Only Jesus can reveal who God is!
Thats equality, for a man to say that would be blasphemous to the Hebrew and a violation of the Shema because Jesus is placing himself between man and God and is still true even after his ascension!
Yes Jesus by flesh was a man, but Jesus by Sprit is God!
The Word that was with God was God!
Praises be to my Great God and Saviour, Jesus Christ!
WJ
Hi WJ,
But Jesus was not always of the Spirit of God any more than his followers always were.
He died but now is yet alive with the prophets in the Spirit of God.WJ……..Where does it say (ONLY) Jesus can reveal GOD, Jesus said to Peter (flesh and Blood) did not reveal that Jesus was the son of GOD to Peter , remember Jesus was flesh and Blood, so Jesus did not reveal that unto Peter, But the FATHER who was (IN) Heaven revealed it to Peter. Also if you read the first part of revelation you will find it was the FATHER that is Revealing things to Jesus , not Jesus revealing them from himself. I also agree with Nick on this Jesus was (exactly) like we in (every) way. WJ we must identify ourselves with Jesus in every way. WE are His brothers not His creation, we are heirs and Joint heirs with him, He 100% one of Us Humans in every way. The teaching of the Trinity clouds all of this and separates Jesus from our identity and our true likeness. IMO
peace and love to you and yours…………………..gene
Quote (Gene @ Aug. 06 2009,15:35) WJ……..Where does it say (ONLY) Jesus can reveal GOD, Jesus said to Peter (flesh and Blood) did not reveal that Jesus was the son of GOD to Peter , remember Jesus was flesh and Blood, so Jesus did not reveal that unto Peter, But the FATHER who was (IN) Heaven revealed it to Peter. Also if you read the first part of revelation you will find it was the FATHER that is Revealing things to Jesus , not Jesus revealing them from himself. I also agree with Nick on this Jesus was (exactly) like we in (every) way. WJ we must identify ourselves with Jesus in every way. WE are His brothers not His creation, we are heirs and Joint heirs with him, He 100% one of Us Humans in every way. The teaching of the Trinity clouds all of this and separates Jesus from our identity and our true likeness. IMO peace and love to you and yours…………………..gene
Gene,
Hear the scriptures,Quote No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only, who is at the Father's side, has made him known (John 1:18) and,
Quote All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him. (Matthew 11:37) The statement in John 1:18 says that the Son makes God known. The verse in Matthew says that the Son chooses those to whom He will reveal the Father.
Do you read the Bible?
thinker
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Aug. 07 2009,07:31) Hi WJ,
So if the Spirit of God is the opener of eyes how does that make God a trinity?
Nick,
Your question is not well thought out. If the Father reveals the Son, and the Son reveals the Father and the Spirit reveals all truth, then….Ta Da! You have a trinity. No rocket science degree needed Nick.
thinker
Quote (thethinker @ Aug. 06 2009,18:09) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Aug. 07 2009,07:31) Hi WJ,
So if the Spirit of God is the opener of eyes how does that make God a trinity?
Nick,
Your question is not well thought out. If the Father reveals the Son, and the Son reveals the Father and the Spirit reveals all truth, then….Da Da! You have a trinity. No rocket science degree needed Nick.
thinker
Hi JackAmen!
NH, I have already asked you this…
Does the Father live inside of you?
Does Jesus live inside of you?
Have you recieved the Comforter the Holy Spirit?
Which one of these are a no?
If you are a believer then you have a Trinity living in you according to the scriptures!
WJ
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