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Quote (thethinker @ Jan. 04 2010,19:23) Quote (Ed J @ Jan. 05 2010,10:37) Quote (thethinker @ Jan. 05 2010,03:05) Gene,
Is Jesus Christ YOUR “only Master and Lord” (Jude 4)?This is not a trick question man!
thinker
Hi ThinkingMan,It's not a trick question; it is a wrong question!
The word 'master' does NOT occur in Jude 4?
Ed J
Huh what?Verse 4 says that Jesus is the “only Master and Lord.” The word “master” is the Greek “despotes” and “lord” is the Greek “Kurios.”
I am giving you the benefit of the doubt that you lack good reading skills and that you are not deliberately lying.
thinker
JackRight again!!!
AT Robertson writes…
Our only Master and Lord (ton monon despothn kai kurion hmwn). For the force of the one article for one person see on “2Pe 1:1”. For despothn of Christ see 2 Peter 2:1 . Denying (arnoumenoi). So 2 Peter 2:1 . See also Matthew 10:33 ; 1 Timothy 5:8 ; Titus 1:16 ; 1 John 2:22 .
But even if it read “Only Lord” it is still the same thing and contradicts the Arian doctrine for they would have to confess more than “Only ONE Lord” which is a violation of the Shema.
Hear, O Israel: “The LORD our God is one LORD“: Deut 6:4
Blessings WJ
WJ………Do you see what you are doing , You say “but even if it reads “only Lord” it is still the same thing and contradicts the Arian doctrine for they would have to confess more than “only one Lord” which is a violation of Shema. When in FACT it say YAWH our GOD is ONE YAWH. The word LORD is a mistranslation and Should be Jehovah or YAWH. Jesus is a Lord , but YAWH or Jehovah Our GOD is ONE Jehovah or YAWH . kING DAVID A didn't think there was only on lord did he ” the LORD said unto my Lord sit on my right until i make your enemies your foot stool.”.
1 Cor 8:5 “for though there be that are called gods, whether iin heaven or in earth, as there be gods many, and lords many, But unto Us there is but one GOD, the FATHER of whom are (ALL) things, and we in him: (AND)(ONE) Lord Jesus Christ,
now please tell us how you change that to what you are saying it says.
Quote (thethinker @ Jan. 05 2010,11:23) Quote (Ed J @ Jan. 05 2010,10:37) Quote (thethinker @ Jan. 05 2010,03:05) Gene,
Is Jesus Christ YOUR “only Master and Lord” (Jude 4)?This is not a trick question man!
thinker
Hi ThinkingMan,It's not a trick question; it is a wrong question!
The word 'master' does NOT occur in Jude 4?
Ed J
Huh what?Verse 4 says that Jesus is the “only Master and Lord.” The word “master” is the Greek “despotes” and “lord” is the Greek “Kurios.”
I am giving you the benefit of the doubt that you lack good reading skills and that you are not deliberately lying.
thinker
Hi Thinker,What faulty version are you using?
[Κύριος] kü-rē-ŏs actually more correctly means Lord and is akin to the Hebrew word [אדני] Âdônây meaning Lord or Owner as well.
Once again the N.W.T. is translated correctly; it is your understand that is left wanting? It's lord, not master.
Jude 1:4 My reason is that certain men slipped in who have long ago been appointed by the Scriptures to this judgment, ungodly men,
turning the undeserved kindness of our God into an excuse for loose conduct and proving false to our only Owner and Lord, Jesus Christ.So what's wrong with their translation here?
Is it that you want it to say master, when it doesn't?
I don't consider you to be lying, only misinformed!Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 05 2010,12:08) Quote (thethinker @ Jan. 04 2010,19:23) Quote (Ed J @ Jan. 05 2010,10:37) Quote (thethinker @ Jan. 05 2010,03:05) Gene,
Is Jesus Christ YOUR “only Master and Lord” (Jude 4)?This is not a trick question man!
thinker
Hi ThinkingMan,It's not a trick question; it is a wrong question!
The word 'master' does NOT occur in Jude 4?
Ed J
Huh what?Verse 4 says that Jesus is the “only Master and Lord.” The word “master” is the Greek “despotes” and “lord” is the Greek “Kurios.”
I am giving you the benefit of the doubt that you lack good reading skills and that you are not deliberately lying.
thinker
JackRight again!!!
AT Robertson writes…
Our only Master and Lord (ton monon despothn kai kurion hmwn). For the force of the one article for one person see on “2Pe 1:1”. For despothn of Christ see 2 Peter 2:1 . Denying (arnoumenoi). So 2 Peter 2:1 . See also Matthew 10:33 ; 1 Timothy 5:8 ; Titus 1:16 ; 1 John 2:22 .
But even if it read “Only Lord” it is still the same thing and contradicts the Arian doctrine for they would have to confess more than “Only ONE Lord” which is a violation of the Shema.
Hear, O Israel: “The LORD our God is one LORD“: Deut 6:4
Blessings WJ
Hi WJ,N.W.T. Eph.4:6 One God and Father of all [persons], who is (YHVH) over all and through all and in all.
PSALM 117 “is” [The Bible's Center], AND the “[smallest chapter]” of the [LARGEST BOOK]!
You should get “Bible Truth”=117 from “The Bible”=63, the word of “YHVH”=63;
not the systems of religion and traditions of men?The systems of religion and traditions of men communicate
distortions of truth, confusion of mind, and distractions of spirit!I would rather here music; there's more “Truth” in music!
Coo, coo, ca-choo, Mrs Robinson
Jesus loves you more than you will know (Wo, wo, wo)
God bless you please, Mrs. Robinson
Heaven holds a place for those who pray
(Hey, hey, hey…hey, hey, hey)Witnessing to the world in behalf of…
117=יהוה האלהים YÄ-hä-vā hä ĔL-ō-Hêêm (JEHOVAH GOD)! (Psalm 45:17)
Ed J (AKJV Joshua 22:34 / Isaiah 60:14)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (Gene @ Jan. 05 2010,12:39) WJ………Do you see what you are doing , You say “but even if it reads “only Lord” it is still the same thing and contradicts the Arian doctrine for they would have to confess more than “only one Lord” which is a violation of Shema. When in FACT it say YAWH our GOD is ONE YAWH. The word LORD is a mistranslation and Should be Jehovah or YAWH. Jesus is a Lord , but YAWH or Jehovah Our GOD is ONE Jehovah or YAWH . kING DAVID A didn't think there was only on lord did he ” the LORD said unto my Lord sit on my right until i make your enemies your foot stool.”. 1 Cor 8:5 “for though there be that are called gods, whether iin heaven or in earth, as there be gods many, and lords many, But unto Us there is but one GOD, the FATHER of whom are (ALL) things, and we in him: (AND)(ONE) Lord Jesus Christ,
now please tell us how you change that to what you are saying it says.
Gene,Hear the word of God:
Revelation 19:6:
For the Lord God omnipotent reigns.”
Jude 4:
“…our only Master and Lord Jesus Christ.”
The Lord God reigns. Jesus Christ is our “only master and Lord.” Do the math dude!
thinker
Ed j said:
Quote What faulty version are you using? I am not using a “version.” I am using the Greek text:
τὸν μόνον δεσπότην καὶ κύριον ἡμῶν Ἰησοῦν Χριστὸν ἀρνούμενοι.
The Greek word highlighted in bold is “despotes” which is our word for “master.” But it makes no difference because Jesus is called the “only Lord” with or without the word “master.”
thinker
Quote (Gene @ Jan. 05 2010,12:39) WJ………Do you see what you are doing , You say “but even if it reads “only Lord” it is still the same thing and contradicts the Arian doctrine for they would have to confess more than “only one Lord” which is a violation of Shema. When in FACT it say YAWH our GOD is ONE YAWH. The word LORD is a mistranslation and Should be Jehovah or YAWH. Jesus is a Lord , but YAWH or Jehovah Our GOD is ONE Jehovah or YAWH . kING DAVID A didn't think there was only on lord did he ” the LORD said unto my Lord sit on my right until i make your enemies your foot stool.”. 1 Cor 8:5 “for though there be that are called gods, whether iin heaven or in earth, as there be gods many, and lords many, But unto Us there is but one GOD, the FATHER of whom are (ALL) things, and we in him: (AND)(ONE) Lord Jesus Christ,
now please tell us how you change that to what you are saying it says.
Gene,
Your statements show how uneducated you are. The word YHWH is translated into Greek as “Kurios” which is translated into English as “Lord.” For instance, in the Septuagint Deuteronomy read thus:6:4 και ταυτα τα δικαιωματα και τα κριματα οσα ενετειλατο κυριος τοις υιοις ισραηλ εν τη ερημω εξελθοντων αυτων εκ γης αιγυπτου ακουε ισραηλ κυριος ο θεος ημων κυριος εις εστιν
I highlighted the Greek word “Kurios” in bold which is translated into English simply as “Lord.”
You prove only how uneducated you are of the biblical languages. I have exhorted you to acquire some education and you won't listen. Your online knowledge is insufficient. You need to enroll in some courses that will give you textbook knowledge of the original languages.
thinker
Quote (Gene @ Jan. 04 2010,20:39) WJ………Do you see what you are doing , You say “but even if it reads “only Lord” it is still the same thing and contradicts the Arian doctrine for they would have to confess more than “only one Lord” which is a violation of Shema. When in FACT it say YAWH our GOD is ONE YAWH. The word LORD is a mistranslation and Should be Jehovah or YAWH. Jesus is a Lord , but YAWH or Jehovah Our GOD is ONE Jehovah or YAWH . kING DAVID A didn't think there was only on lord did he ” the LORD said unto my Lord sit on my right until i make your enemies your foot stool.”. 1 Cor 8:5 “for though there be that are called gods, whether iin heaven or in earth, as there be gods many, and lords many, But unto Us there is but one GOD, the FATHER of whom are (ALL) things, and we in him: (AND)(ONE) Lord Jesus Christ,
now please tell us how you change that to what you are saying it says.
GeneThe Hebrew Tetragammation “YHWH” is translated in the Greek LXX as “kyrios” the same word used in refering to Jesus almost invariably in the NT.
The context of Jude 1:4, 5 shows that Jesus is the “Only Master and Lord” “kyrios”, and the one “…having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not. Jude 1:5
Jesus also in refering to the Shema used the Greek word “kyrios”…
And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; “The Lord (kyrios), our God is one Lord (kyrios), “: Matt 12:29
Hear, O Israel: “The LORD (Yĕhovah)our God is one LORD (Yĕhovah): Deut 6:4
So how many Lords do you serve Gene?
Click here for more information
WJ
Quote (Ed J @ Jan. 04 2010,21:10) [The systems of religion and traditions of men communicate
distortions of truth, confusion of mind, and distractions of spirit!
Hes looking in the mirror again! And singing wordly songs at that.
BTW, ED, how many Masters and Lords do you have and serve?
Would you say the Father is not your Master and Lord? Hello?
Has the light of Jude 1:4, 5 come on yet for you?
WJ
Quote (Gene @ Jan. 04 2010,20:39) The word LORD is a mistranslation and Should be Jehovah or YAWH.
Thank you Gene! Since the Greek equivalent for YHWH is “Kyrios” then that would mean that when you see the word Lord “kyrios”, then you should read it as YHWH which is proof that Jesus is YHWH!
WJ
Quote (Ed J @ Jan. 04 2010,20:42) Jude 1:4 My reason is that certain men slipped in who have long ago been appointed by the Scriptures to this judgment, ungodly men,
turning the undeserved kindness of our God into an excuse for loose conduct and proving false to our **ONLY** Owner and Lord, Jesus Christ.So what's wrong with their translation here?
It doesn't help you or the NWT at all because of the little word “ONLY”!So is Jesus your “ONLY OWNER and LORD”?
So the Father is not Lord and Owner?
Maybe if you turn you head you will not have to look at or hear the truth!
Psst, just forget that Jude 1:4, 5 is in your Bible, maybe that will help!
“But they refused to hearken, and pulled away the shoulder, and stopped their ears, that they should not hear. Zech 7:11
WJ
Quote (thethinker @ Jan. 05 2010,14:38) Ed j said: Quote What faulty version are you using? I am not using a “version.” I am using the Greek text:
τὸν μόνον δεσπότην καὶ κύριον ἡμῶν Ἰησοῦν Χριστὸν ἀρνούμενοι.
The Greek word highlighted in bold is “despotes” which is our word for “master.” But it makes no difference because Jesus is called the “only Lord” with or without the word “master.”
thinker
Hi ThinkingMan,I believe it does make a difference.
Why should we trust your brand of 'truth',
when most people here on this forum see inconsistencies?'Using' and “reading with comprehension” are two different things?
Are you telling everybody here you can read Greek?It seems you have “the word” God (Θεός Thēŏs) missing?
I looked for the word δεσπότην,
but could not find that word?The word “Master”(Jude 1:4) is not in the English AKJV nor the N.W.T. Bible; the title of 'your thread'?
What gives; please explain?
Ed J
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 05 2010,18:41) Quote (Ed J @ Jan. 04 2010,20:42) Jude 1:4 My reason is that certain men slipped in who have long ago been appointed by the Scriptures to this judgment, ungodly men,
turning the undeserved kindness of our God into an excuse for loose conduct and proving false to our **ONLY** Owner and Lord, Jesus Christ.So what's wrong with their translation here?
It doesn't help you or the NWT at all because of the little word “ONLY”!So is Jesus your “ONLY OWNER and LORD”?
So the Father is not Lord and Owner?
Maybe if you turn you head you will not have to look at or hear the truth!
Psst, just forget that Jude 1:4, 5 is in your Bible, maybe that will help!
“But they refused to hearken, and pulled away the shoulder, and stopped their ears, that they should not hear. Zech 7:11
WJ
Hi WJ,Why do you choose to portray me as your enemy?
What purpose does that serve?I told you before, it is you who wants yourself to be right, and others to be (falsely) wrong.
I only want you to see the big picture.
But is seems you have closed your mind?I guess I'll just have to wait a bit, till your worn out fighting an unwinable useless battle?
Yours in Christ, Jesus
Ed JQuote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 05 2010,18:23) OOPs! Thanks Jack I didn't know you had posted!
Amen!
No problem Keith. Gene needs it repeated to him anyway.Jack
ED J said:
Quote It seems you have “the word” God (Θεός Thēŏs) missing? I looked for the word δεσπότην,
but could not find that word?ED J,
I use the Critical Greek text which is the standard text used in theological seminaries all over the world. You say the absence of the word “despotes” makes a difference but you did not explain how. So how?
btw, you came here claiming that you have bridged the gap between trinitarianism and anti-trinitarianism. Yeah right! You have been pushed completely over to the anti-trinitarian side thus proving WJ's assertion that the bridge cannot be gapped.
thinker
Quote (thethinker @ Jan. 05 2010,22:39) ED J said: Quote It seems you have “the word” God (Θεός Thēŏs) missing? I looked for the word δεσπότην,
but could not find that word?ED J,
I use the Critical Greek text which is the standard text used in theological seminaries all over the world. You say the absence of the word “despotes” makes a difference but you did not explain how. So how?
btw, you came here claiming that you have bridged the gap between trinitarianism and anti-trinitarianism. Yeah right! You have been pushed completely over to the anti-trinitarian side thus proving WJ's assertion that the bridge cannot be gapped.
thinker
Hi ThinkingMan,You have not identified which word that is?
Don't you think that should make a difference?Of a truth there is a bridge, but you are not ready yo cross it yet?
You refuse to see the big picture?Ezek.13:2 Son of man, prophesy against the prophets of Israel that prophesy,
and say thou unto them that prophesy out of their own hearts, Hear ye
the word of the LORD; Thus saith the Lord GOD; Woe unto the foolish prophets,
that follow their own spirit, and have seen nothing! O Israel, thy prophets
are like the foxes in the deserts. Ye have not gone up into the gaps,
neither made up the hedge for the house of Israel to stand in the battle
in the day of the LORD. They have seen vanity and lying divination,
saying, The LORD saith: and the LORD hath not sent them: and they have
made others to hope that they would confirm the word. Have ye not seen a vain vision,
and have ye not spoken a lying divination, whereas ye say, The LORD saith it; albeit I have not spoken?Ezek.3:26-4:3 And I will make thy tongue cleave to the roof of thy mouth,
that thou shalt be dumb, and shalt not be to them a reprover: for they are a rebellious house.
But when I speak with thee, I will open thy mouth, and thou shalt say unto them,
Thus saith the Lord GOD; He that heareth, let him hear; and he that forbeareth,
let him forbear: for they are a rebellious house. Thou also, son of man, take thee a tile,
and lay it before thee, and portray upon it the [Holycity=117], even [New Jerusalem]: (Rev.21:2-3)
And lay siege against it, and build a fort against it, and cast a mount against it;
set the camp also against it, and set battering rams against it round about.
Moreover take thou unto thee an iron pan, and set it for a wall of iron
between thee and the [HolyCty=117]: and set thy face against it, and it shall be besieged,
and thou shalt lay siege against it. This shall be a sign to the house of Israel.Ed J (Isaiah 60:13-14)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.comQuote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 05 2010,18:41) Quote (Ed J @ Jan. 04 2010,20:42) Jude 1:4 My reason is that certain men slipped in who have long ago been appointed by the Scriptures to this judgment, ungodly men,
turning the undeserved kindness of our God into an excuse for loose conduct and proving false to our **ONLY** Owner and Lord, Jesus Christ.So what's wrong with their translation here?
It doesn't help you or the NWT at all because of the little word “ONLY”!So is Jesus your “ONLY OWNER and LORD”?
So the Father is not Lord and Owner?
Maybe if you turn you head you will not have to look at or hear the truth!
Psst, just forget that Jude 1:4, 5 is in your Bible, maybe that will help!
“But they refused to hearken, and pulled away the shoulder, and stopped their ears, that they should not hear. Zech 7:11
WJ
Quote (Ed J @ Jan. 05 2010,04:41) Why do you choose to portray me as your enemy?
What purpose does that serve?
It is you that makes the following quotes against me and Jack while you sing a worldly song of victory in a taunting fashion! So when we call you on a particular passage and ask you a question then instead of answering you resort to this diversion rather than dealing with the text! This is proof that what you say of me is true of you, that you make yourself right and Jack and I wrong!Quote (Ed J @ Jan. 04 2010,21:10) [The systems of religion and traditions of men communicate
distortions of truth, confusion of mind, and distractions of spirit!
But then you say…Quote (Ed J @ Jan. 05 2010,04:41)
I told you before, it is you who wants yourself to be right, and others to be (falsely) wrong.
Circular!Quote (Ed J @ Jan. 05 2010,04:41)
I only want you to see the big picture. But is seems you have closed your mind?
Circular and condescending!Quote (Ed J @ Jan. 05 2010,04:41)
I guess I'll just have to wait a bit, till your worn out fighting an unwinable useless battle?
Thats all you have done since you have been here! My fight is not against you personally, but against the wordly doctrines of Arianism and Unitarianism.Why not deal with the scripture and stop creating all these diversions?
WJ
Quote (Ed J @ Jan. 05 2010,07:28) Quote (thethinker @ Jan. 05 2010,22:39) ED J said: Quote It seems you have “the word” God (Θεός Thēŏs) missing? I looked for the word δεσπότην,
but could not find that word?ED J,
I use the Critical Greek text which is the standard text used in theological seminaries all over the world. You say the absence of the word “despotes” makes a difference but you did not explain how. So how?
btw, you came here claiming that you have bridged the gap between trinitarianism and anti-trinitarianism. Yeah right! You have been pushed completely over to the anti-trinitarian side thus proving WJ's assertion that the bridge cannot be gapped.
thinker
Hi ThinkingMan,You have not identified which word that is?
Don't you think that should make a difference?Of a truth there is a bridge, but you are not ready yo cross it yet?
You refuse to see the big picture?Ezek.13:2 Son of man, prophesy against the prophets of Israel that prophesy,
and say thou unto them that prophesy out of their own hearts, Hear ye
the word of the LORD; Thus saith the Lord GOD; Woe unto the foolish prophets,
that follow their own spirit, and have seen nothing! O Israel, thy prophets
are like the foxes in the deserts. Ye have not gone up into the gaps,
neither made up the hedge for the house of Israel to stand in the battle
in the day of the LORD. They have seen vanity and lying divination,
saying, The LORD saith: and the LORD hath not sent them: and they have
made others to hope that they would confirm the word. Have ye not seen a vain vision,
and have ye not spoken a lying divination, whereas ye say, The LORD saith it; albeit I have not spoken?Ezek.3:26-4:3 And I will make thy tongue cleave to the roof of thy mouth,
that thou shalt be dumb, and shalt not be to them a reprover: for they are a rebellious house.
But when I speak with thee, I will open thy mouth, and thou shalt say unto them,
Thus saith the Lord GOD; He that heareth, let him hear; and he that forbeareth,
let him forbear: for they are a rebellious house. Thou also, son of man, take thee a tile,
and lay it before thee, and portray upon it the [Holycity=117], even [New Jerusalem]: (Rev.21:2-3)
And lay siege against it, and build a fort against it, and cast a mount against it;
set the camp also against it, and set battering rams against it round about.
Moreover take thou unto thee an iron pan, and set it for a wall of iron
between thee and the [HolyCty=117]: and set thy face against it, and it shall be besieged,
and thou shalt lay siege against it. This shall be a sign to the house of Israel.Ed J (Isaiah 60:13-14)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.com
SeeThere you go again.
Instead of dealing with Jacks points you quote scriptures implying that he is a false Prophet and speaking lies!
Do you expect to bridge gaps by insinuating such things?
WJ
ED J said:
Quote You have not identified which word that is?
Don't you think that should make a difference?
ED,I gave you the Greek text. Here it is again,
4 παρεισέδυσαν1 γάρ τινες ἄνθρωποι, οἱ πάλαι2 προγεγραμμένοι3 εἰς τοῦτο τὸ κρίμα4, ἀσεβεῖς5, τὴν τοῦ θεοῦ ἡμῶν χάριτα μετατιθέντες6 εἰς ἀσέλγειαν7 καὶ τὸν μόνον δεσπότην8 καὶ κύριον ἡμῶν Ἰησοῦν Χριστὸν ἀρνούμενοι.
παρεισδύ(ν)ω, verb, creep in unawares (1-1)
πάλαι, adverb, long ago, any while, a great while ago, old, in time past, of old (7-1)
προγράφω, verb, write, write aforetime, write afore, evidently set forth, before ordain (4-1)
κρίμα, noun, judgment, damnation, condemnation, be condemned, go to law , avenge (27-1)
ἀσεβής, adjective, ungodly, ungodly men (9-3)
μετατίθημι, verb, translate, carry over, remove, change, turn (6-1)
ἀσέλγεια, noun, lasciviousness, wantonness, filthy (10-1)
δεσπότης, noun, Lord, master (10-1)I underlined the word “despotes” (master) in the text. The lexical meaning of the word is given by the source immediately above (in bold). Click on the link below.
The Critical text is an older manuscript and thought to be more reliable because it would be closer to the original. It is the text used in theological seminaries throughout the world for required courses in New Testament Greek.
The words “Lord God” are not in the Critical Text. And it does not make a theological difference whether “despotes” is present or absent. You have asserted two times now that it makes a difference and have not demonstrated why? So again I ask you why or how does it matter? Jesus Christ is OUR LORD either way.
The debate has to do with which text is more reliable. No one thinks that it makes a theological difference.
thinker
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