Myth of original sin vicarious atonement

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 22 2011,12:34)

Quote (Tim Kraft @ Feb. 21 2011,04:26)

The new way to God as revealed by Jesus, saves the believer from the destruction of believing they are unclean and unworthy.

14 “I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For all those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.”

Tim, which of the two mentioned in Jesus' parable most represents you? I am the sinner humbly asking for forgiveness.

peace and love,
mike

Mike: I am saddened to think that you perceive me this way.

As I have tried to show you before, I do not refer to “my own righteousness”!! I have no righteousness of my own!

I am trying to get accross to all others that its not “their righteousness either”. They can't be righteous on their own.

It is the righteousness by faith in Christ Jesus that is given freely to all WHO WILL BELIEVE AND ACCEPT apart from their own works/deeds/efforts!!!

How could perceive that I look down on others when I say all are equal. All have the same option to believe. No one is singled out. Its for WHOSOEVER will believe!!

Thats equality for all. Not looking down. I would pull down the haughty (preachers) that are rich (believe they know it all) in God and lift up those that think they are robbers, evildoers, and adulterers.

I tell you that you are clean and perfect in Jesus and you say I am a liar. You insist that you are in sin or have sin or do sin every day. If you believe you are a sinner/adulterer in your heart, then you are what you believe you are.

If you believe you have been cleansed by the words of Jesus from God, then you are clean, ordained, made whole, saved from sin, sinless! Its what you are by faith in HIS works.

You however believe that the works and deeds you do or don't do, which is following the law, are working out your own righteousness. Then it is you looking down on those who don't do as well as you think they should. That creates judgment. Then are some good and some evil. Equality is then gone.

Now which one is more humble. One that accepts his righteousness by faith in the righteous man Jesus and holding to his words from God himself?

Or one like yourself who is trying to act good. Attempting to be better and not sin and ask over and over for forgiveness for sin. God never told us to ask for forgiveness for sin. Forgiveness is a gift from God that you believe, receive and accept or you attempt to work for and thereby create your own righteousness.

I choose to be the one who knows his works for purification are as dirty rags compared to accepting the sacrifice of Jesus for purification. I was a sinner but I have been saved by Grace and I am in sin (wrong thinking of what sin is) no more. Jesus saved me completely. IMO, TK

February 22, 2011 at 11:14 am#236814

Participant

From what?

And was it so great a thing from which you needed saving that the immoral abdication of responsibility through the vicarious punishment by execution of another human was still the lesser wrong?

Stuart

February 22, 2011 at 12:14 pm#236816

Participant

Quote (Stu @ Feb. 22 2011,21:14)

From what?

And was it so great a thing from which you needed saving that the immoral abdication of responsibility through the vicarious punishment by execution of another human was still the lesser wrong?

Stuart

Stu: If the question was directed to me I say this.

Mankind needed to be save IMO from believing he was ever in sin in the first place! Sin, to me, is an “error of belief” that there was (at that time) good and evil.

Imo, there was only God/Source of life which was “good”. Man was warned by source not to accept from the “tree” of information the thoughts that there is good and evil.

The warning was if you accept evil you now have two Gods in your mind. Wholeness of mind was split. Then there was life and death to experience. God didn't curse man he told him what to expect from the choice he made to believe and thereby experience. The word sin was not even in the Garden of eden story.

Adam believed in evil. Therefore he would experience what he chose to believe. Yet he passed down his “error of thinking” to his sons and eventually all mankind. Evil was as illusion of thinking. Mankind proliferated evil/error thinking down through the generations. They were lost in misunderstanding.

Only a few strong partiarchs held fast to God by faith/believing in only God/Good. The masses fell further and further away from God in theirs minds by creating more and more rules, rituals, fasts, feasts, sacrifices etc.

All unecessary works created by mans distorted thought creations as way to seek and please God. God never went anywhere! Hes everywhere, where would he go?

That was the need for Jesus to come to enlighten mankind back to the truth, that God/Source/Life/the Kingdom/Jesus all dwell inside each human being. IMO, TK

February 22, 2011 at 10:06 pm#236876

bodhitharta

Participant

Quote (Tim Kraft @ Feb. 22 2011,07:51)

Bod: Absolutely, I agree. Do you find a supporting scripture where so called “Jews” were ever called by God as his people? How did they eventually head up the highest religious order of the time. Do you consider them as “self proclaimed” or where did God choose a “Jew”. Abraham was hebrew I believe. Was Melchizedek a “Jew”?

Do you agree with the presentation above on “original sin”? What do you think? Thanks for your time. Bless you, TK

The children of Israel were chosen to spread the truth of God not because they were special but because God had assisted them so much in their survival and had promised Abraham that his seed would prosper which was not only the children of Isaac but also the children of Ishmael but God declared this fact:

Deuteronomy 9:5-7 (New International Version, ©2010) 5 It is not because of your righteousness or your integrity that you are going in to take possession of their land; but on account of the wickedness of these nations, the LORD your God will drive them out before you, to accomplish what he swore to your fathers, to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. 6 Understand, then, that it is not because of your righteousness that the LORD your God is giving you this good land to possess, for you are a stiff-necked people.

You see nothing special about the people only something especially wicked about the others around them so you are right obedience, submission and faith is what causes you to be someone chosen of God and nothing else

February 23, 2011 at 12:16 am#236891

Participant

Quote (Tim Kraft @ Feb. 22 2011,20:59)

Mike: I am saddened to think that you perceive me this way.

How could perceive that I look down on others when I say all are equal.

Hi Tim,

You look down on me,
for promoting God's laws!

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

February 23, 2011 at 2:22 am#237065

Participant

Quote (Tim Kraft @ Feb. 22 2011,20:59)

God never told us to ask for forgiveness for sin.

Hi Tim,

No? How do you interpret this verse…
1John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just
to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
…Is this yet another verse you choose to disregard in favor of 'new age philosophy'?

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

February 23, 2011 at 4:01 am#237079

Participant

Quote (Tim Kraft @ Feb. 22 2011,22:14)

Quote (Stu @ Feb. 22 2011,21:14)

From what?

And was it so great a thing from which you needed saving that the immoral abdication of responsibility through the vicarious punishment by execution of another human was still the lesser wrong?

Stuart

Stu: If the question was directed to me I say this.

Mankind needed to be save IMO from believing he was ever in sin in the first place! Sin, to me, is an “error of belief” that there was (at that time) good and evil.

Imo, there was only God/Source of life which was “good”. Man was warned by source not to accept from the “tree” of information the thoughts that there is good and evil.

All unecessary works created by mans distorted thought creations as way to seek and please God. God never went anywhere! Hes everywhere, where would he go?

That was the need for Jesus to come to enlighten mankind back to the truth, that God/Source/Life/the Kingdom/Jesus all dwell inside each human being. IMO, TK

I think my questions remain unanswered.

Stuart

February 23, 2011 at 5:15 am#237081

Participant

Quote (Stu @ Feb. 23 2011,14:01)

Quote (Tim Kraft @ Feb. 22 2011,22:14)

Quote (Stu @ Feb. 22 2011,21:14)

From what?

And was it so great a thing from which you needed saving that the immoral abdication of responsibility through the vicarious punishment by execution of another human was still the lesser wrong?

Stuart

Stu: If the question was directed to me I say this.

Mankind needed to be save IMO from believing he was ever in sin in the first place! Sin, to me, is an “error of belief” that there was (at that time) good and evil.

Imo, there was only God/Source of life which was “good”. Man was warned by source not to accept from the “tree” of information the thoughts that there is good and evil.

All unecessary works created by mans distorted thought creations as way to seek and please God. God never went anywhere! Hes everywhere, where would he go?

That was the need for Jesus to come to enlighten mankind back to the truth, that God/Source/Life/the Kingdom/Jesus all dwell inside each human being. IMO, TK

I think my questions remain unanswered.

Stuart

Hi Stuart,

He doesn't answer my questions either.
At least you attempt to answer most!

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

February 23, 2011 at 11:02 am#237111

Participant

Quote (Ed J @ Feb. 23 2011,12:22)

Quote (Tim Kraft @ Feb. 22 2011,20:59)

God never told us to ask for forgiveness for sin.

Hi Tim,

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

Ed: I do not look down on you. You teach what you know, I say what I believe with an open mind to be changed to the truth. You have opinions and I have opinions. You believe your truth your way but it is your way not the only way. With most people a predominance of scripture will alter or change their minds toward a more accurate truth of God. It can't happen to one who knows his truth. If the cup is full there is no room.

My interpretation of that scripture would be keyed on the word translated “confess”. It is interpreted just as accurately as “acknowledge” or “recognize”. If we recognize our need for cleansing from sin, he is faithful and just to relieve us, cleanse us from, not take into account, not hold against us the error of our beliefs.

You attempt to entrap me (not really learn, you couldn't care less) with a scripture and though I honor the request you tag your inquiry with a nasty quip about some philosophy. If New Age means New Testament maybe you should learn what they say!!
The end, please! TK

February 23, 2011 at 11:15 am#237112

Participant

Quote (Tim Kraft @ Feb. 23 2011,21:02)

Quote (Ed J @ Feb. 23 2011,12:22)

Quote (Tim Kraft @ Feb. 22 2011,20:59)

God never told us to ask for forgiveness for sin.

Hi Tim,

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

Hi Tim,

Are you telling us you have no room for “Bible Truth”,
because 'your truth' has filled up your mind?

Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

February 23, 2011 at 11:44 am#237114

Participant

Quote (Stu @ Feb. 23 2011,14:01)

Quote (Tim Kraft @ Feb. 22 2011,22:14)

Quote (Stu @ Feb. 22 2011,21:14)

From what?

And was it so great a thing from which you needed saving that the immoral abdication of responsibility through the vicarious punishment by execution of another human was still the lesser wrong?

Stuart

Stu: If the question was directed to me I say this.

Mankind needed to be save IMO from believing he was ever in sin in the first place! Sin, to me, is an “error of belief” that there was (at that time) good and evil.

Imo, there was only God/Source of life which was “good”. Man was warned by source not to accept from the “tree” of information the thoughts that there is good and evil.

All unecessary works created by mans distorted thought creations as way to seek and please God. God never went anywhere! Hes everywhere, where would he go?

That was the need for Jesus to come to enlighten mankind back to the truth, that God/Source/Life/the Kingdom/Jesus all dwell inside each human being. IMO, TK

I think my questions remain unanswered.

Stuart

Stu: I will say to you what I will probably catch hell for from Ed and some others, but this is as I tend to see the execution of Jesus.

Mankind had fallen (believed incorrectly) from pure mind of God into an illusion of truth/darkness when he accepted or created the illusion evil.

This became a belief of man that separated his mind further and further from the truth. The more man created untruth or evil in his mind, the further man fell or believed he was separated from God. Sin was an error of thinking. Sin was thinking anything you could do could separate you from source. Sin was believing that there even was sin.

Man was going down the tube. God/Source never moved, source is everywhere. Where could source go. God never left man, man left God believing incorrectly.

Bottom line man could have turned back to God and some of the patriarchs did, by faith. The only connection we have to God/Source is Faith. Believing God is there is your only connection. Always was always will be. Bloodlines did not exist, faith only has been the connection between God and man. Therefore if a man doesn't believe he is connected then to him he is not. God will not ever usurp our free will.

Trying to get to the end. Jesus came to a dark, dying world with good news of faith to reconnect. The masses were religiously bound to laws, rules, rituals, tithes, sacrifices, more and more control from religious men full of greed. Just like religion today.
Jesus offered his life even having done no wrong to paint a picture in the religious hearts of the last sacrifice for perfection unto God. Jesus himself said, this is my life, I pick it up or lay it down, NO ONE takes it from me, I lay it down.
That great love has helped to cleanse the minds of multitudes of people who believed that the end of the law would have a final sacrifice over thousands of years.

Interesting how the religious world who was under the law that said, thou shalt not kill, instagated and insisted on the death of Jesus which he allowed to save the masses from their ignorance. To much, to little space, probably failed again. Sorry, this is my opinion today. TK

February 23, 2011 at 11:48 am#237115

Participant

Stu: Of coarse bloodlines existed, God did not pass through bloodlines. God always passed through mankind by faith/believing. No respector of persons, no chosen group. TK

February 24, 2011 at 9:00 am#237229

Participant

Quote

Stu: I will say to you what I will probably catch hell for from Ed and some others, but this is as I tend to see the execution of Jesus. Mankind had fallen (believed incorrectly) from pure mind of God into an illusion of truth/darkness when he accepted or created the illusion evil. This became a belief of man that separated his mind further and further from the truth. The more man created untruth or evil in his mind, the further man fell or believed he was separated from God. Sin was an error of thinking. Sin was thinking anything you could do could separate you from source. Sin was believing that there even was sin. Man was going down the tube. God/Source never moved, source is everywhere. Where could source go. God never left man, man left God believing incorrectly. Bottom line man could have turned back to God and some of the patriarchs did, by faith. The only connection we have to God/Source is Faith. Believing God is there is your only connection. Always was always will be. Bloodlines did not exist, faith only has been the connection between God and man. Therefore if a man doesn't believe he is connected then to him he is not. God will not ever usurp our free will. Trying to get to the end. Jesus came to a dark, dying world with good news of faith to reconnect. The masses were religiously bound to laws, rules, rituals, tithes, sacrifices, more and more control from religious men full of greed. Just like religion today.
Jesus offered his life even having done no wrong to paint a picture in the religious hearts of the last sacrifice for perfection unto God. Jesus himself said, this is my life, I pick it up or lay it down, NO ONE takes it from me, I lay it down. That great love has helped to cleanse the minds of multitudes of people who believed that the end of the law would have a final sacrifice over thousands of years. Interesting how the religious world who was under the law that said, thou shalt not kill, instagated and insisted on the death of Jesus which he allowed to save the masses from their ignorance. To much, to little space, probably failed again. Sorry, this is my opinion today. TK Stu: Of coarse bloodlines existed, God did not pass through bloodlines. God always passed through mankind by faith/believing. No respector of persons, no chosen group. TK

TK I appreciate you taking time to respond. I still think you have failed to answer the question of how vicarious punishment, where someone dies so you can be absolved of your responsibilities, is a moral action.

I am also no wiser about the thing from which you claim to need saving. Perhaps this list contains those things, but I would suggest they are just religious platitudes:

Quote

truth/darkness
accepted or created the illusion evil
the truth
separated from God
Man was going down the tube
God/Source never moved, source is everywhere
man left God
The only connection we have to God/Source is Faith
God will not ever usurp our free will
a dark, dying world
the last sacrifice for perfection unto God
God always passed through mankind by faith/believing

It may be unkind to suggest it but they are exactly the kinds of things that people of limited critical capacity will repeat once told by someone they see as an authority.

Unless you can say in what way “man was going down the tube” or it was a “dark dying world” then I think it’s pretty clear that these phrases mean nothing even though they were written to appear impressive.

As for these:

Quote

“Sin was an error of thinking.”
“cleanse the minds of multitudes”
“No respector of persons”

What is the difference between this and Orwell’s Thought Police?

I don’t feel very much respect for your worldview or the god you appear to worship. They each look indistinguishable from the bluff, the bluster and some of the reality of the cold war.

Is this religion you follow supposed to make you happy? You don’t appear very happy. Is it really supposed to save you? It appears to make you look like you are in constant danger of sinking.

Isn’t life too complicated already for all this fantasy sophistry to be taken seriously?

Stuart

February 24, 2011 at 11:02 am#237232

Participant

Well I failed my point again. Let me sum it up. Man needed to be saved from his own ignorance! IMO, the sin of mankind was believing there was sin! When man made his first choice of belief of good and evil it was the first time he had ever felt fear. They ran and hid. This tells me that they felt as though they had lost connection with God, and part of them had. God did not condemn them as having done something wrong. God told them more explicitly what their choice would bring into their lives. God did not say mankind would be condemned for their choice. They believed they had done wrong. Adam and Eve set in motion the belief that God was angry.

They began to make offerings to God. They tried to appease God by different acts of appeasement. These things were not required by God as nearly as I can tell. These actions and more and more actions of appeasement passed down through generations as religion. Mans ideas about God. The true connection in the mind became covered more and more wrong thinking. Man was leaving/falling away from God in his mind. Believing incorrectly was the sin. Wrong thinking that one is good or bad. At that time there was no evil actions.

They created the evil they believed in. There was no law or rules that would make an action good or bad. Looking closely at Gods anger toward mankind that came, he was angered with mans evil heart. Mans evil thoughts. Mans destructive contemplations, ponders, dreams, visions, general thinking. Man was built as a creator like his father. Creation comes from the mind/thoughts first and is then manifested in the physical world. We all think what we are going to do before we do it. Or its best we do. This is some of my opinion from over 30 years outside the chruch structure. It is a work in progress and an obsession of my soul.

Not agreeing with me does not bother me nearly as much as you saying I sound sad. For that I failed. I am the most free person on this site. I have no qualifying rules, restrictions, rituals, hymns, sabbaths, food restrictions, drink restrictions, health restrictions et.al.! I am 59 years old, have no doctor, I am over 300 lb,. weight lifter for 25 years. I love all people with a pure love of acceptance no matter what they believe. It is their choice! We are all on a path to enlightenment or destruction, life or death its our choice IMO. I am a believer in live and let live. If what I have found as truth for me is non-truth it matters not, I am totally free. Jesus said the truth will make me free. My total freedom allows me to love and accept all humanity, including gays. Jesus condemned no one for their actions.

Yet he highly disliked the pharisees and religious leaders. I have no respect for different colors, races or creeds. As long as I don't infringe on my brothers territory, I am totally free. The only hell I am concerned with is if I give out hell I will reap that which I sow. TK

February 24, 2011 at 11:34 am#237233

TimothyVI

Participant

Hi Tim,
Please do not take this as a negative view of you.
I like the way you think on many subjects, as well as your willingness to share your thoughts with the forum.

But it seems to me as if you have created your own god and religion with which you are happy. Much like all of the other, over 3,000 denominations of Christianity.

Tim

February 24, 2011 at 2:58 pm#237237

Participant

Quote (TimothyVI @ Feb. 24 2011,21:34)

Hi Tim,
Please do not take this as a negative view of you.
I like the way you think on many subjects, as well as your willingness to share your thoughts with the forum.

But it seems to me as if you have created your own god and religion with which you are happy. Much like all of the other, over 3,000 denominations of Christianity.

Tim

Tim V6: I probably shouldn't have written that post.Now nobody will read what I write. I set out about a year ago to investigate what sin really was and where did it start. I knew that to come to God in the NT it was by faith and not works, but all I heard from others was if you “do this” or “don't do that” it is a sin. One or the other is wrong. If you come to God by faith in the words of Jesus you can only leave God by unbelief or disbelieving the same.

If you can do good works to get to God then bad works can take you away. The two ways are completely different. When looked at real closely, sin is always in the mind. The defilment of man comes out of his heart/mouth. Jesus said it is not what goes in but what comes out and then lists, adulteries, fornications, hatreds, etc. that come from within.

The forth chapter of Gen. is the first time the word sin is used in the Bible. One offering was chosen over the other offering. Then the one boy was extremely wrothful at the other because his offering was accepted. Sin, then, was at the door (of his heart?).

It may be that SIN IS AN ERROR OF THOUGHT THAT THERE REALLY IS SIN! A mistaken belief perpetrated and proliferated by religion for decades. Please show me where is says what sin is. If you can wash away sin with the truth, it can't be an action. Jesus took away our sin, (wrong thinking) he didn't take away our actions.

Sin seems to be a destructive thought or thoughts, within the human heart, that if pondered and incubated will produce evil fruit outside eventually. Thats why we must clean the cup inside first, then the outside will take care of itself. This is why I find sin as evil thinking that will produce as an evil manifestation.

Hopefully, no matter what I write it will always align with Jesus' teaching in the NT of the God most high of Love. If I am corrected by the words of Jesus I will submit & repent.

I can take any correction when presented in the kind way you presented. I own nothing of truth myself. I only want to know the truth of Jesus.

Even though I agree there are 3k denominations of Christianity I have found many truthes that are commonly accepted by all of them that are not scripturally sound.

One main truth to ponder is if God is everywhere, and no matter where you are, God is there to hear you, and comfort you then how can there be sin? There is no sin in God!! Sin and darkness and hell, and evil are not in God!! Is God everywhere? Just a thought. God Bless you for reading, TK

February 25, 2011 at 8:10 am#237336

Participant

Quote

If we put aside the issue of religious platitudes, I am left wondering what any of this has to do with reality. You appear here to be disagreeing with Judeo-christian scripture, for example you are suggesting that at least one point sin did not involve a standard set by its god. How far are you prepared to reject the bible? Not far down that road you eliminate the only collection of documents that claim Jesus even existed.

Quote

OK, fair play to you. I didn’t say you were sad, rather that this did not appear to make you happy. I accept your denial of that observation.

I take it you are not bothered by the idea that vicarious punishment would appear to many to be an immoral concept, which frees you from things that you should not expect freedom from if we all take responsibility for our actions?

Stuart

February 25, 2011 at 8:11 am#237337

Participant

Tim and TK

I believe a recent count put the number of christian cults at more like 39,000.

Stuart

February 25, 2011 at 10:51 am#237350