Myth of original sin vicarious atonement

[gollamudi]

Original Sin in the Bible?
(A Christian Creation and Imposition on the Jewish Scriptures)

The first mention of the concept of Original Sin is found, not in Genesis, where the fatal event was supposed to happen, but in the fifth chapter of Romans, written by Paul. According to Paul, humanity was cursed because Adam sinned when he ate of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. As Paul puts it:

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned
(Rom. 5:12).
…or as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive
(1 Cor. 15:22).
(Also note Rom. 5:17-19).
Despite these clear claims on the part of Paul, where are we to find the basis for them in Genesis? In that text, God pronounces all sorts of condemnations and curses upon Adam, Eve and the nefarious Serpent – working for their food, pain in childbirth, being stepped on, etc. Here is the relevant passage for reference:

The Lord God said to the serpent, Because you have done this, cursed are you among all animals and among all wild creatures; upon your belly you shall go, and dust you shall eat all the days of your life. I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; he will strike your head, and you will strike his heel.” To the woman he said, I will greatly increase your pangs in childbearing; in pain you shall bring forth children, yet your desire shall be for your husband, and he shall rule over you.” And to the man he said, Because you have listened to the voice of your wife, and have eaten of the tree about which I commanded you, You shall not eat of it, cursed is the ground because of you; in toil you shall eat of it all the days of your life; thorns and thistles it shall bring forth for you; and you shall eat the plants of the field. By the sweat of your face you shall eat bread until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken; you are dust, and to dust you shall return.”
(Genesis 3:14-19)
At no point do we see anything that might qualify as a curse of “Original Sin” to be handed down to all of Adam’s descendants. Sure, their lives are supposed to become much more difficult than what they had heretofore experienced; but where in all of that is the “Sin” being passed along?

Even more importantly, where is there any indication that this sin must be “redeemed” eventually by Jesus? Christianity is anxious to portray itself as the logical and theological progeny of Judaism, but if Christianity simply invents a concept and tacks it on to Jewish stories, it’s hard to see how that goal is accomplished.

The rest of the Old Testament is of no help to Christian theology in this area: from this point in Genesis all of the way through the ending of Malachi, there isn’t the slightest hint of there being any sort of Original Sin inherited by all humans through Adam. There are plenty of stories of God getting angry at humanity in general and at the Jews in particular, thus offering many opportunities for God to point out how everyone is “sinful” because of Adam. Yet we read nothing about that.

Furthermore, there is nothing about how everyone who isn’t “right” with God will go to hell and be tormented – another staple of Christian theology closely connected to Original Sin, since it is this sin which automatically condemns us. You’d think that God would have had enough heart to mention something this important, right?

Instead, God’s punishments are all physical and temporal in nature: they apply here and now, not in the hereafter. Not even Jesus is quoted as having been concerned with Adam and Original Sin. By all appearances, Paul’s interpretation is not really warranted by the actual story — a problem, since if this interpretation is not right, the whole Christian scheme of salvation falls apart.
Source: http://atheism.about.com/od/thebible/a/originalsin.htm

Hi All,
Here is another Topic where you can have heated arguments and debates on fact or fiction of Christian doctrines. Please share your views. I personally don't believe this doctrine of Christianity which is not based on Hebrew scriptures. It was purely invented by Paul and other N.T writers.
Hope you will all share on this new thread.
Thank you
Adam

[Ed J]

Hi Adam,

How can we reason together,
until we define Bible terms?
What do 'you think' sin is?

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[gollamudi]

Quote (Ed J @ Dec. 16 2010,20:21)

Hi Adam, How can we reason together, until we define Bible terms? What do 'you think' sin is? God bless Ed J (Joshua 22:34) http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

Hi brother Ed,
Thanks for your first post on this thread. Yes I can define 'Sin' as the violation of any of the divine commandments. Sin is an act not a state of being.

Peace to you
Adam

[Baker]

Adam

1Jo 3:4 ¶ Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

What law?

Jhn 14:15 ¶ If ye love me, keep my commandments.

Jhn 15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.

“LOVE”, is the new commandment, if we love each other, then we wont do any of the 6 commandments to each other; and, if we show love to each other, we show love to God who loves all of us.

Georg

[Ed J]

Quote (gollamudi @ Dec. 16 2010,22:21)

Quote (Ed J @ Dec. 16 2010,20:21) Hi Adam, How can we reason together, until we define Bible terms? What do 'you think' sin is? God bless Ed J (Joshua 22:34) http://www.holycitybiblecode.org Hi brother Ed, Thanks for your first post on this thread. Yes I can define 'Sin' as the violation of any of the divine commandments. Sin is an act not a state of being. Peace to you Adam

Hi Adam,

OK; so we both completely agree what sin is; an action!
Then isn't that exactly what Adam and his wife Eve ‘did’
(in the Garden), that wrought negative consequences?

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[gollamudi]

True brother Ed J. So they were given a punishment by God.

[Ed J]

Quote (gollamudi @ Dec. 17 2010,00:02)

True brother Ed J. So they were given a punishment by God.

Hi Adam,

Before YHVH told them what the consequences of their sin would be,
what exactly happened to them as a result of eating of the forbidden fruit?
In other words: what was their condition prior to their receiving punishment?

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[gollamudi]

Quote (Baker @ Dec. 16 2010,23:35)

Adam 1Jo 3:4 ¶ Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.   What law? Jhn 14:15 ¶ If ye love me, keep my commandments.   Jhn 15:12   This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you. “LOVE”, is the new commandment, if we love each other, then we wont do any of the 6 commandments to each other; and, if we show love to each other, we show love to God who loves all of us. Georg

Hi brother Georg,
Thank you very much for your post on this new thread. I agree with you on the definition of sin and also on Law of God. Hope you will share more on this topic Original Sin and Vicarious atonement as claimed by Christianity.

Thanks and love to you
Adam

[Ed J]

Quote (Ed J @ Dec. 17 2010,00:14)

Quote (gollamudi @ Dec. 17 2010,00:02) True brother Ed J. So they were given a punishment by God. Hi Adam, Before YHVH told them what the consequences of their sin would be, what exactly happened to them as a result of eating of the forbidden fruit? In other words: what was their condition prior to their receiving punishment? God bless Ed J (Joshua 22:34) http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

Adam, you didn't answer this question?

[gollamudi]

Quote (Ed J @ Dec. 17 2010,00:14)

Quote (gollamudi @ Dec. 17 2010,00:02) True brother Ed J. So they were given a punishment by God. Hi Adam, Before YHVH told them what the consequences of their sin would be, what exactly happened to them as a result of eating of the forbidden fruit? In other words: what was their condition prior to their receiving punishment? God bless Ed J (Joshua 22:34) http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

Yahweh warned them that on the day they eat the forbidden fruit they will die. After eating the forbidden fruit their eyes were opened and they found themselves naked and shameful. Then God cursed them with individual curses including the ground from which Adam was taken.

That's what I understand from Genesis 1-3.

[Ed J]

Quote (gollamudi @ Dec. 17 2010,02:20)

After eating the forbidden fruit their eyes were opened and they found themselves naked and shameful.

Hi Adam,

OK; here is what I was after.
Adam and Eve put on fig leaves,
but it was no help in covering them.

How did YHVH(YÄ-hä-vā) clothe them?

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[gollamudi]

The Yahweh Elohim made garments of skin for Adam and his wife and clothed them (Gen 3:21)

[Ed J]

Quote (gollamudi @ Dec. 17 2010,02:45)

The Yahweh Elohim made garments of skin for Adam and his wife and clothed them (Gen 3:21)

Hi Adam,

How does one go about to get animal skins?

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[gollamudi]

Kill the animal and poach the skin. Do you think God intended this to be vicarious atonement of Jesus? But no Jew will agree with this view.

[Ed J]

Quote (gollamudi @ Dec. 17 2010,02:54)

Kill the animal and poach the skin. Do you think God intended this to be vicarious atonement of Jesus? But no Jew will agree with this view.

Hi Adam,

Excellent Job Adam; you walked through the steps perfectly!
Can you NOT see this as 'a shadow picture' of the “Gospel”?
Without shedding of blood is no remission of sins. (Heb:9:22)

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[GeneBalthrop]

EDJ……….Sorry for butting in, but have you ever looked up the Word used for Shedding and what it can mean? It can also mean to take off as one sheds his coat or sweater. Perhaps man must get shed of blood to cease completely from sin, just a thought , not trying to make a doctrine or anything out of this brother.

peace and love to you and yours………………………………..gene

[gollamudi]

Quote (Ed J @ Dec. 17 2010,03:02)

Quote (gollamudi @ Dec. 17 2010,02:54) Kill the animal and poach the skin. Do you think God intended this to be vicarious atonement of Jesus? But no Jew will agree with this view. Hi Adam, Excellent Job Adam; you walked through the steps perfectly! Can you NOT see this as 'a shadow picture' of the “Gospel”? Without shedding of blood is no remission of sins. (Heb:9:22) God bless Ed J (Joshua 22:34) http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

Hi brother Ed,
Thanks for your agreement so far. But I can't agree on the age old interpretation of Christianity thinking God killed an animal as an atonement for sins of Adam & Eve which is not there in the scriptures.

This is where I differ with you.
Peace to you
Adam

[kerwin]

Adam,

You atheistic source is not creditable as unbelievers cannot understand the word of God and so cannot use it to make judgment nor in judgment of it.  

If you read the Old Testament instead of the fantasy of unbelievers then you would know that the children suffer for the sins of their parents on many occasions.  Offhand I can mention the son of David and Bathsheba who died because of their sin.  Anyone can see for themselves that Adam’s sin subjected creation including his descendants to corruption.  There is no real debate here except for what original sin means.

In addition contrary to the claims of unbelievers Gahanna is mentioned in the Old Testament as is speaks of those who’s “worm never dies”.  It is in Isaiah 66.

[gollamudi]

Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 17 2010,16:44)

Adam, You atheistic source is not creditable as unbelievers cannot understand the word of God and so cannot use it to make judgment nor in judgment of it.   If you read the Old Testament instead of the fantasy of unbelievers then you would know that the children suffer for the sins of their parents on many occasions.  Offhand I can mention the son of David and Bathsheba who died because of their sin.  Anyone can see for themselves that Adam’s sin subjected creation including his descendants to corruption.  There is no real debate here except for what original sin means. In addition contrary to the claims of unbelievers Gahanna is mentioned in the Old Testament as is speaks of those who’s “worm never dies”.  It is in Isaiah 66.

Hi brother Kerwin,
Thanks for your reply on this thread. Question is not about the credibility of the source. I have brought forth here arguments of people who question the doctrines of Christian religion. I don't think you should be afraid of such questions. We are here to debate the sanctity of certain Christian concepts which are not so clear in our Bible. That is why I always bring such controversial issues which generally not discussed by fundamentalists. For which I personally don't possess sufficient answers.

The basic question is about Original sin that belongs to first man and woman whether this was the reason for all others to become sinners and is there a necessity of vicarious atonement as claimed by Christianity? Your quoting from O.T about inheriting curse of fathers nothing to do with Adamic sin or original sin. God even declares in Ezk 18:20 “the soul that sins will die.” but no roiginal sin here. Deut 24:16 says “Fathers shall not be put to death for their children, nor children put to death for their fathers; each is to die for his own sin.” Again there is no Adamic original sin as Christianity claims.

As you are claiming Isa 66:24 to be of Hell or Gehenna but it certainly is not about Christian hell my brother it is about punishment of God of the wicked on this earth as a physical death not as some eternal torment as you imagine. Here it is even in your NIV that you quote always to support your views:

“And they will go out and look on the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; the worms that eat them will not die, the fire that burns them will not be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind.”

Does it speak of your so called man-made doctrines of hell or Gehenna? No No my brother. It is your bias towards Christianity causing you to repel by my arguments. You can not see truth on the other side if you are sticking to your ideas.

I am sorry to say that.
Peace to you
Adam

[kerwin]

Adam,

Unbelievers are fond of strawmen arguments where they misinterpret a scripture than tear down the lie they made. You can do this multiple times with multiple scriptures. Opposing such tactics is simply a waste of time as either a person choose to believe God or they do not. If they choose to believe God then they will believe the true interpretation of scripture.

In short all I have to do is let them hear the true interpretation of scripture and hear it myself. I doubt that I will hear such from an unbeliever.

The same idea is written with different words. The final punishmment of the wicked is outside of the city where the fires of Gehannah reside. I believe Revelations also states something similar to Isaiah 66. Gehannah is a Jewish belief.

[Author]

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