Muslims

[WhatIsTrue]

bodhitharta,

First of all, I said nothing about my opinions on any of this until after you made your comments that included the image that you introduced into this discussion.

Secondly, how does “[it is] perverted and wrong for an older man to marry a child and the reason is 'sexual abuse'” equate to “the image of an older man banging on an underdeveloped infant“?  They are not even remotely the same statement.

And, by the way, I didn't even say anything about “sexual abuse” either.  If you want an honest, concise summary of what I actually said it is that child marriage equals slavery.

This is why debates with you are often pointless.  You can't even be honest about what it is we are discussing.

[bodhitharta]

Quote (Devolution @ Sep. 10 2012,21:16)

SHOCKING! Forcibly married off at age six, nine-year-old Muslim child bride is hanged upside down, cut with a kinife, and doused with acid for being a bad housekeeper PAKISTAN: This abuse was administered by her ‘in-laws’ but no information is provided about how she was likely raped repeatedly by her ‘husband.’ Her father brings her to the hospital but he was the one who sold her into this ‘marriage’ in the first place. Disgusting. YEMEN: Women protest 'in favor' of allowing girls to marry even at 8 years old or younger This is sick. No, beyond sick, it is insanity. Yemeni women think it’s just fine for little girls to be forced to marry at any age because their holy book, the Qur’an, says so. The paedophile prophet Muhammad married Aisha when she was only 6. But waited until she was 9 to consummate it. Yemeni women take to the streets NOT to protest for what many consider common women’s rights, but for the right to marry as a child. Just another reason why Islam needs to be banned in all civilized countries. LINK: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kTaWb6cWuvw&feature=player_embedded Yemeni child bride bleeds to death after 'rough sex' A 13-year-old Yemeni girl who was forced into marriage died five days after her wedding when she suffered a rupture in her sex organs and hemorrhaging after intercourse. Ilham Mahdi al Assi died last Friday in a hospital in Yemen’s Hajja province, the Shaqaeq Arab Forum for Human Rights said in a statement quoting a medical report. She was wedded the previous Monday in a traditional arrangement known as a “swap marriage,” in which the brother of the bride also married the sister of the groom, it said. “The child Ilham has died as a martyr due to the abuse of children’s lives in Yemen,” the non-governmental organization said. Her death was a “flagrant example” of the results of opposing the ban on child marriage in Yemen, which was leading to “killing child females,” it said. The marriage of young girls is widespread in Yemen, which has a strong tribal structure. The death of a 12-year-old girl in childbirth in September illustrated the case of the country’s “brides of death,” many of whom were married off even before puberty. Controversy heightened in Yemen recently over a law banning child marriage in the impoverished country through setting a minimum age of 17 for women and 18 for men. Thousands of conservative women demonstrated outside parliament last month, answering a call by Islamist parties opposing the law. A lesser number of women rallied at the same venue a few days later in support of the law, the implementation of which was blocked pending a request by a group of politicians for a review. DAILY TELEGRAPH BBC, Sky News silent over Hamas beating their reporters at mass wedding by sheikyermami on March 11, 2012 Religion of Pedophiles From the Elder: BBC, Sky News silent over Hamas beating their reporters From the International Press Institute, in a story I noted Thursday:    The Palestinian Journalists’ Syndicate has reported that three journalists reporting on a mass wedding of 500 couples in Gaza City were attacked.The mass wedding was organised by local charities in conjunction with Hamas, according to Ramallah-based Maan News.undefinedHamas thugs  really don’t like it when pictures of their six-year old brides make the news in donor countries….. LINK: BBC Religiously Sanctioned Paedophilia January 9, 2012 at 11:35 pm Maryam Namazie aisha The Director General of the Census Bureau in Hormozgan announced that there had been five marriages of girls under the age of 10 in the Iranian province. Latest national statistics for children ‘married’ under the age of 14 in Iran is 24,506 girls and 5, 519 boys. The total number of marriages from 10-18 years of age is 848,000. But don’t be alarmed. A member of the Islamic Assembly (Majlis) and its ‘Judicial Commission’, Nayereh Akhavan (here’s a photo of her),  has said that there can be no ban on child marriages because there are ten year olds who have reached ‘sexual and intellectual puberty’ and because it would ‘contradict sharia’. We know Islam’s prophet consummated his ‘marriage’ with Aisha when she was 9.  And of course there is Ayatollah Khomeini ‘s book of sayings: ‘Tahrir al Wasilah’, where he says that a man can even have SEX with a BABY. He says: ‘A man can have sexual pleasure from a child as young as a baby. However, he should not penetrate vaginally, but SODOMIZING the CHILD is ACCEPTABLE. If a man does penetrate and damage the child then, he should be responsible for her subsistence all her life. This girl will not count as one of his four permanent wives and the man will not be eligible to marry the girl’s sister… It is better for a girl to marry at such a time when she would begin menstruation at her husband’s house, rather than her father’s home. Any father marrying his daughter so young will have a permanent place in heaven.’ There’s more on sex with animals and placing penises between the thighs of weaning babes if you have the stomach to read on. The book in English is very inappropriately called Ruhollah Khomeini, Sayings of the Ayatollah Khomeini: Political, Philosophical, Social, & Religious (“The Little Green Book”) [Bantam Books, September 1985, New York/London. ISBN 0553140329] by the moral relativist brigade. Yes I know the ‘moderates’ will say Aisha was what 40 when Mohammad had sex with her (but still playing with dolls?), that child marriages were the norm at the time, that girls matured faster than they do today in western society, blah blah blah. Bollocks. This is religiously sanctioned paedophilia. Full Stop. And it’s happening to countless children today. Discussion with a Muslim about how to sexually enjoy your baby wife Notice how the Muslim doesn’t deny that Islam allows you to marry a baby girl, it just tells you not to have intercourse until the girl reaches puberty. But touching all her private parts is just fine and dandy. LINK:Discussion with a Muslim about how to sexually enjoy your baby wife

Devolution

Show your scriptures if you are defending a Christian viewpoint the Bible condones child Marriage but it is not in the Quran. I keep telling you stop mixing cultures with your ideas of religion it just makes you look dishonest.

[bodhitharta]

Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Sep. 14 2012,01:18)

bodhitharta, First of all, I said nothing about my opinions on any of this until after you made your comments that included the image that you introduced into this discussion. Secondly, how does “[it is] perverted and wrong for an older man to marry a child and the reason is 'sexual abuse'” equate to “the image of an older man banging on an underdeveloped infant“?  They are not even remotely the same statement. And, by the way, I didn't even say anything about “sexual abuse” either.  If you want an honest, concise summary of what I actually said it is that child marriage equals slavery. This is why debates with you are often pointless.  You can't even be honest about what it is we are discussing.

Hi What is true

You are correct somehow I was believing that you and Devolution were in complete agreement so if I skewed
your own opinions I sincerely apologize to you.

As your own view that Child Marriage equals Slavery
how could it equal slavery anymore than any other type of Marriage?

[WhatIsTrue]

Quote (bodhitharta @ Sep. 14 2012,02:25)

As your own view that Child Marriage equals Slavery how could it equal slavery anymore than any other type of Marriage?

I define slavery as involuntary servitude – emphasis on involuntary.

It is a fact that the vast majority of these child marriages are forced arrangements, (i.e. the child has no say in it whatsoever).  Furthermore, the child is unable to leave the relationship voluntarily.  Combine that with the fact that these girls are clearly subservient to their much older husbands, and you have a perfect recipe for enslavement.

A normal marriage, (i.e. one that does not equal slavery), is a voluntary agreement between two consenting adults – extra emphasis on both consenting and adults.

Do you really not see the difference?

[bodhitharta]

Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Sep. 14 2012,15:02)

Quote (bodhitharta @ Sep. 14 2012,02:25) As your own view that Child Marriage equals Slavery how could it equal slavery anymore than any other type of Marriage? I define slavery as involuntary servitude – emphasis on involuntary. It is a fact that the vast majority of these child marriages are forced arrangements, (i.e. the child has no say in it whatsoever).  Furthermore, the child is unable to leave the relationship voluntarily.  Combine that with the fact that these girls are clearly subservient to their much older husbands, and you have a perfect recipe for enslavement. A normal marriage, (i.e. one that does not equal slavery), is a voluntary agreement between two consenting adults – extra emphasis on both consenting and adults. Do you really not see the difference?

Many arranged marriages all over the world are between adults in-fact in Royalty circumstances this has always been the case. You simply do not understand the facts of culture so instead you place it in the category of religion which is completely misleading.

I'm still not sure why you think that “forcing” certain circumstances are forms of slavery, why do we “force our children to go to school” Should we wait until they decide they want to go to school? Why do we force children to do chores, eat certain foods, come home on demand ….?

[WhatIsTrue]

bodhitharta,

You continue to amaze me – not in a good way!

Are you really incapable of seeing the difference between a marriage that is forced on a child – a permanent choice that the child will have to endure for the rest of her life! – and making your child go to school so that she will one day become independent of you?

Let me spell it out for you.

In America, parenting ends at age 18.  At that point, the child, who is now considered an adult, is under no obligation to do anything that the parent wants them to do.  (Even prior to turning 18, there are limits to the “force” that you are allowed to use with a child.)

Now what happens when we introduce child marriage into the picture?

At age 18, the child, who is still subservient to her much older husband, is still under the same obligation that was placed on her when she was a child.  She is not free to leave the marriage.  She is not free to choose to do something else with her life.  And, there is no point in her life when the obligation will be removed.

It's permanent.  It's involuntary.  It's slavery.

Now, if you want to continue to misunderstand this issue.  That's fine, but I am done here.  Personally, I am disgusted that I had to spend this much time explaining basic ethics to someone who should know better.

I mean, child marriage?  Really?  You are really sitting here defending that?

Like I said, you continue to amaze me, bodhitharta, and not in a good way.

[bodhitharta]

Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Sep. 17 2012,13:20)

bodhitharta, You continue to amaze me – not in a good way! Are you really incapable of seeing the difference between a marriage that is forced on a child – a permanent choice that the child will have to endure for the rest of her life! – and making your child go to school so that she will one day become independent of you? Let me spell it out for you. In America, parenting ends at age 18.  At that point, the child, who is now considered an adult, is under no obligation to do anything that the parent wants them to do.  (Even prior to turning 18, there are limits to the “force” that you are allowed to use with a child.) Now what happens when we introduce child marriage into the picture? At age 18, the child, who is still subservient to her much older husband, is still under the same obligation that was placed on her when she was a child.  She is not free to leave the marriage.  She is not free to choose to do something else with her life.  And, there is no point in her life when the obligation will be removed. It's permanent.  It's involuntary.  It's slavery. Now, if you want to continue to misunderstand this issue.  That's fine, but I am done here.  Personally, I am disgusted that I had to spend this much time explaining basic ethics to someone who should know better. I mean, child marriage?  Really?  You are really sitting here defending that? Like I said, you continue to amaze me, bodhitharta, and not in a good way.

Ts is why I said you are not talking about Islam because in Islam any wife can divorce her husband so it is as I said you are onfusing culture with religion and I wish you understood the difference. So I will tell you again so you will have actual knowledge A WOMAN IS ALLOWED IN ISLM TO DIVORCE HER HUSBAND.

Instructions
1

Say or write the words, “I divorce you,” or some variation thereof, if you are a man. This is the first step for a man to initiate a divorce in Islam. This can be done for any reason, from simply being unhappy to just not wanting to be married to the woman anymore.

2

Prove there is a reason for the divorce, if you are a woman. A woman must prove, in court, that her husband treated her poorly, is financially incapable of supporting her or is sexually impotent. If none of these reasons applies, she can still divorce, but she doesn't have any financial rights.

3

Wait three months. After a divorce is final, the couple must live together for three months. The wife is financially dependent upon her husband during this time, and he is responsible for her welfare and caring for her in general. The main reason for this is to verify that the woman is not pregnant. It also serves as a cooling-off period and a reconciliation period, giving the couple the chance to make amends.

4

Continue waiting if expecting. If the wife is pregnant, the couple must wait until after the baby is born to complete the divorce. During that time, the woman must continue living with her husband, and reconciliation is still possible.

5

Care for the children. Children typically stay with the mother after the divorce is finalized, while the father must continue to financially support the children.

Read more: How to Get a Divorce in Islam | eHow.com http://www.ehow.com/how_2313204_divorce-islam.html#ixzz26h5cxF53

[WhatIsTrue]

Fine.  Under Islamic law child marriage may not be slavery, but in practice, (i.e. culturally speaking), it generally is.

However, even if divorce is allowed, subjecting a child to a sexual relationship is still inherently abusive, because a child is not mature enough to be in a sexual relationship with anyone – much less a much older male.

(If you can't understand this, imagine an adult tricking a child out of keeping a twenty dollar bill in favor of getting two shiny silver dimes.  That's in essence what child marriage is.)

And now, I really am done.

If you truly think that child marriage is acceptable, we are on two completely different planets, ethically speaking, but given that you have also defended slavery in the past, I can't say that I am surprised.

[bodhitharta]

Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Sep. 17 2012,15:30)

Fine.  Under Islamic law child marriage may not be slavery, but in practice, (i.e. culturally speaking), it generally is. However, even if divorce is allowed, subjecting a child to a sexual relationship is still inherently abusive, because a child is not mature enough to be in a sexual relationship with anyone – much less a much older male. (If you can't understand this, imagine an adult tricking a child out of keeping a twenty dollar bill in favor of getting two shiny silver dimes.  That's in essence what child marriage is.) And now, I really am done. If you truly think that child marriage is acceptable, we are on two completely different planets, ethically speaking, but given that you have also defended slavery in the past, I can't say that I am surprised.

You have twisted it around again. I said clearly that child Marriage is not a practice of ISLAM it is has been a cultural practice of people all over the world it is not a religious matter.

Therefore I am saying you are using it a a nonsequitor to attack Islam.

It doesn't matter if I don't find child marriage acceptable or if you do not find it acceptable or even if we both found it to be acceptable our opinions would not be based on anything found in the Quran so your Islamic references fall short.

Now let me ask you this if a little child was an orphan and the country you lived in had no such thing as social services or adoption, with that in mind they also said any female that lived with any male must be married if it is not his immediate relative and you had the finances to take care of this little girl and knew that if left on her own she would surely perish would you marry the little girl or would you let her perish?

[WhatIsTrue]

If you don't think child marriage is morally acceptable, then we have been wasting a lot of time here.  My goal was not to attack Islam.  It was to attack the idea that child marriage could ever be legitimate.  In my opinion, it can never be.

Quote

Now let me ask you this if a little child was an orphan and the country you lived in had no such thing as social services or adoption, with that in mind they also said any female that lived with any male must be married if it is not his immediate relative and you had the finances to take care of this little girl and knew that if left on her own she would surely perish would you marry the little girl or would you let her perish?

Really?  Given the choice between two bad outcomes, which would I choose?

I'd choose the bad outcome.  

Now here's one for you.  If you were being held captive, and your captors were torturing bunny rabbits, cute cuddly puppies, and small children, and your captors say that the only way for you to make the torture stop would be for you to eat bacon, what would you do?

Just so you know, if you chose to eat the bacon, I wouldn't think any less of you.  

p.s. For the record, choosing to do something that's wrong just because you don't have any other viable option doesn't suddenly make that something less wrong.  It just makes the whole situation an ethical nightmare.

[bodhitharta]

Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Sep. 18 2012,15:34)

If you don't think child marriage is morally acceptable, then we have been wasting a lot of time here.  My goal was not to attack Islam.  It was to attack the idea that child marriage could ever be legitimate.  In my opinion, it can never be. Quote Now let me ask you this if a little child was an orphan and the country you lived in had no such thing as social services or adoption, with that in mind they also said any female that lived with any male must be married if it is not his immediate relative and you had the finances to take care of this little girl and knew that if left on her own she would surely perish would you marry the little girl or would you let her perish? Really?  Given the choice between two bad outcomes, which would I choose? I'd choose the bad outcome.   Now here's one for you.  If you were being held captive, and your captors were torturing bunny rabbits, cute cuddly puppies, and small children, and your captors say that the only way for you to make the torture stop would be for you to eat bacon, what would you do? Just so you know, if you chose to eat the bacon, I wouldn't think any less of you.   p.s. For the record, choosing to do something that's wrong just because you don't have any other viable option doesn't suddenly make that something less wrong.  It just makes the whole situation an ethical nightmare.

I would of course eat Bacon a person can eat bacon in Islam if there is no other choice or it is the wisest choice based upon need and they are hungry. This is what I am saying you have no idea about what Islam is.

I don't agree with child marriage simply because the culture I was raised in finds it unacceptable so it never even entered my mind but Strapping a bomb to my chest or being a coma cozi never entered my mind either but to be fair I don't believe in “Black Power” or “White Power” either I simply was not raised that way so these are foreign sentiments to me.

[princess]

I have to re word this no other choice in the matter

Instructions
1

if you are a man
This is the first step for a man to initiate a divorce in Islam
Say or write the words, “I divorce you,” or some variation thereof, . .
This can be done for any reason,
from simply being unhappy to
just not wanting to be married to the woman anymore.

2

if you are a woman
Prove there is a reason for the divorce,.
A woman must prove, in court,
that her husband treated her poorly,
is financially incapable of supporting her or is
sexually impotent.
If none of these reasons applies, she can still divorce,
but she doesn't have any financial rights.

So BD, you will stand behind a 40 year old woman marring a 14 year old boy right?

[bodhitharta]

Quote (princess @ Sep. 23 2012,14:03)

I have to re word this no other choice in the matter Instructions 1 if you are a man This is the first step for a man to initiate a divorce in Islam Say or write the words, “I divorce you,” or some variation thereof, . . This can be done for any reason, from simply being unhappy to just not wanting to be married to the woman anymore. 2 if you are a woman Prove there is a reason for the divorce,. A woman must prove, in court, that her husband treated her poorly, is financially incapable of supporting her or is sexually impotent. If none of these reasons applies, she can still divorce, but she doesn't have any financial rights. So BD, you will stand behind a 40 year old woman marring a 14 year old boy right?

It doesn't matter what I prefer, you haven't shown how it is wrong.

Do you think a 50 year old woman sjould marry a 24 year old man? The age span is the same

[princess]

Quote

It doesn't matter what I prefer, you haven't shown how it is wrong.

I don't need to, you do a fine job of that yourself by closing your mind, heart and eyes to the matter.

Quote

Do you think a 50 year old woman sjould marry a 24 year old man? The age span is the same.

BD, back during the black plague children made up a song most likely to try to help them cope in some way of the reality that surrounded them. You remind me of such by using some form of twisted coping mechanism to soothe the reality of your religion away.

[Ed J]

Hi Princess, the sad fact is:

BD believes everything 'the false prophet' says;
that is, everything except what's in the Hadiths.

עד (Joshua 22:34) Ed (Witness)

[princess]

Hello Edj
Putting aside messiah's or prophets. BD cannot see the forest through the trees. When someone that holds religion as their first then that person should be capable of knowing to err is human. Religion is more of an ego trip then anything else, the god that is chosen fits the needs of the person. It is human nature to do such. Water takes the easiest route.

Just because it seems so easy does not make it the safest route.

[bodhitharta]

Quote (princess @ Sep. 23 2012,22:06)

Quote It doesn't matter what I prefer, you haven't shown how it is wrong. I don't need to, you do a fine job of that yourself by closing your mind, heart and eyes to the matter. Quote Do you think a 50 year old woman sjould marry a 24 year old man? The age span is the same. BD, back during the black plague children made up a song most likely to try to help them cope in some way of the reality that surrounded them. You remind me of such by using some form of twisted coping mechanism to soothe the reality of your religion away.

Excuse me how is this a religious issue? The Quran does not even mention any of this neither does the Bible so how is this a religious issue?

[bodhitharta]

Quote (princess @ Sep. 24 2012,00:04)

Hello Edj Putting aside messiah's or prophets. BD cannot see the forest through the trees. When someone that holds religion as their first then that person should be capable of knowing to err is human. Religion is more of an ego trip then anything else, the god that is chosen fits the needs of the person. It is human nature to do such. Water takes the easiest route. Just because it seems so easy does not make it the safest route.

Yu haven't even presented a religious question or argument nor have I defended religion in regards to your statement you have never shown this to be a religious argument.

[bodhitharta]

Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 23 2012,22:54)

Hi Princess, the sad fact is: BD believes everything 'the false prophet' says; that is, everything except what's in the Hadiths. עד (Joshua 22:34) Ed (Witness)

E

Can you show me a biblical argument for or against what age people should get married? If you cannot what is the argument really about because the Quran does not suggest even in the slightest “Child Marriage” or for that matter”Elderly Marriage”

[Ed J]

Quote (bodhitharta @ Sep. 24 2012,05:46)

Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 23 2012,22:54) Hi Princess, the sad fact is: BD believes everything 'the false prophet' says; that is, everything except what's in the Hadiths. עד (Joshua 22:34) Ed (Witness) E Can you show me a biblical argument for or against what age people should get married? If you cannot what is the argument really about because the Quran does not suggest even in the slightest “Child Marriage” or for that matter”Elderly Marriage”

Hi BD,

Evil polygamists prey on children to multiply wives unto themselves.
Children can be susceptible to abuse, as right and wrong is not so
easily (in their own minds) defined at the early stages of their life.

The bible clearly teaches against:

1. Adultery
2. Fornication
3. Multiple marriages

There is absolutely nothing wrong with a man having one wife;
and the only excuse for a man to divorce his wife is infidelity.
I would, however, suggest that a couple wait until the age
of 19 for a child, that's when a girl's body is fully mature.

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)

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