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Quote (Devolution @ Sep. 10 2012,21:16) SHOCKING! Forcibly married off at age six, nine-year-old Muslim child bride is hanged upside down, cut with a kinife, and doused with acid for being a bad housekeeper
PAKISTAN: This abuse was administered by her ‘in-laws’ but no information is provided about how she was likely raped repeatedly by her ‘husband.’Her father brings her to the hospital but he was the one who sold her into this ‘marriage’ in the first place. Disgusting.
YEMEN: Women protest 'in favor' of allowing girls to marry even at 8 years old or younger
This is sick. No, beyond sick, it is insanity. Yemeni women think it’s just fine for little girls to be forced to marry at any age because their holy book, the Qur’an, says so. The paedophile prophet Muhammad married Aisha when she was only 6. But waited until she was 9 to consummate it.Yemeni women take to the streets NOT to protest for what many consider common women’s rights, but for the right to marry as a child. Just another reason why Islam needs to be banned in all civilized countries.
LINK: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kTaWb6cWuvw&feature=player_embedded
Yemeni child bride bleeds to death after 'rough sex'
A 13-year-old Yemeni girl who was forced into marriage died five days after her wedding when she suffered a rupture in her sex organs and hemorrhaging after intercourse.
Ilham Mahdi al Assi died last Friday in a hospital in Yemen’s Hajja province, the Shaqaeq Arab Forum for Human Rights said in a statement quoting a medical report. She was wedded the previous Monday in a traditional arrangement known as a “swap marriage,” in which the brother of the bride also married the sister of the groom, it said.
“The child Ilham has died as a martyr due to the abuse of children’s lives in Yemen,” the non-governmental organization said. Her death was a “flagrant example” of the results of opposing the ban on child marriage in Yemen, which was leading to “killing child females,” it said. The marriage of young girls is widespread in Yemen, which has a strong tribal structure.
The death of a 12-year-old girl in childbirth in September illustrated the case of the country’s “brides of death,” many of whom were married off even before puberty.
Controversy heightened in Yemen recently over a law banning child marriage in the impoverished country through setting a minimum age of 17 for women and 18 for men. Thousands of conservative women demonstrated outside parliament last month, answering a call by Islamist parties opposing the law.
A lesser number of women rallied at the same venue a few days later in support of the law, the implementation of which was blocked pending a request by a group of politicians for a review. DAILY TELEGRAPH
BBC, Sky News silent over Hamas beating their reporters at mass wedding
by sheikyermami on March 11, 2012
Religion of Pedophiles
From the Elder:
BBC, Sky News silent over Hamas beating their reporters
From the International Press Institute, in a story I noted Thursday:
The Palestinian Journalists’ Syndicate has reported that three journalists reporting on a mass wedding of 500 couples in Gaza City were attacked.The mass wedding was organised by local charities in conjunction with Hamas, according to Ramallah-based Maan News.undefinedHamas thugs really don’t like it when pictures of their six-year old brides make the news in donor countries…..
LINK: BBC
Religiously Sanctioned Paedophilia
January 9, 2012 at 11:35 pm Maryam Namazie
aishaThe Director General of the Census Bureau in Hormozgan announced that there had been five marriages of girls under the age of 10 in the Iranian province. Latest national statistics for children ‘married’ under the age of 14 in Iran is 24,506 girls and 5, 519 boys. The total number of marriages from 10-18 years of age is 848,000.
But don’t be alarmed. A member of the Islamic Assembly (Majlis) and its ‘Judicial Commission’, Nayereh Akhavan (here’s a photo of her), has said that there can be no ban on child marriages because there are ten year olds who have reached ‘sexual and intellectual puberty’ and because it would ‘contradict sharia’. We know Islam’s prophet consummated his ‘marriage’ with Aisha when she was 9. And of course there is Ayatollah Khomeini ‘s book of sayings: ‘Tahrir al Wasilah’, where he says that a man can even have SEX with a BABY.
He says: ‘A man can have sexual pleasure from a child as young as a baby. However, he should not penetrate vaginally, but SODOMIZING the CHILD is ACCEPTABLE. If a man does penetrate and damage the child then, he should be responsible for her subsistence all her life. This girl will not count as one of his four permanent wives and the man will not be eligible to marry the girl’s sister… It is better for a girl to marry at such a time when she would begin menstruation at her husband’s house, rather than her father’s home. Any father marrying his daughter so young will have a permanent place in heaven.’
There’s more on sex with animals and placing penises between the thighs of weaning babes if you have the stomach to read on.
The book in English is very inappropriately called Ruhollah Khomeini, Sayings of the Ayatollah Khomeini: Political, Philosophical, Social, & Religious (“The Little Green Book”) [Bantam Books, September 1985, New York/London. ISBN 0553140329] by the moral relativist brigade.
Yes I know the ‘moderates’ will say Aisha was what 40 when Mohammad had sex with her (but still playing with dolls?), that child marriages were the norm at the time, that girls matured faster than they do today in western society, blah blah blah.
Bollocks. This is religiously sanctioned paedophilia. Full Stop. And it’s happening to countless children today.
Discussion with a Muslim about how to sexually enjoy your baby wife
Notice how the Muslim doesn’t deny that Islam allows you to marry a baby girl, it just tells you not to have intercourse until the girl reaches puberty. But touching all her private parts is just fine and dandy.LINK:Discussion with a Muslim about how to sexually enjoy your baby wife
The interesting thing about you is you keep confusing cultures with RELIGION there is nothing in Islam that allows any type of abuse and it was Islam that expanded human rights in the first place you don't know history at all.In the South here in the USA if you judged the southern culture as representative of all America only 50 years ago you would believe that all Americans were racist murderers that hated all non whites but that wasn't true.
Many cultures have practiced many things that were not condoned by their religion and this is why your arguments are anti-intellectual.
Muhammad never told anyone to treat their wives badly so this is where you assert your lies because you have no witness of this and in this way you violate the Commandment of God “Thou shall not bear false witness”
Hi BD,
Islam is abusive to human rights as it condones slavery
and is abusive to the desires of women. (see Daniel 11:37)עד (Joshua 22:34) Ed (Witness)
Quote (bodhitharta @ Sep. 11 2012,00:28) There is nothing to condone or condemn the fact is it is not forbidden in the Bible and in-fact the Bible suggests it is fine. Numbers 31:18
But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.This is not in the Quran so you see any true BIBLE BELIEVER cannot dispute this.
So what do you say about this? and if you disagree with the Bible and are an atheist what grounds can an atheist have on morality if you believe in nature and evolution no animal on the planet waits to reach adulthood before it engages in intercourse
Since you refuse to give a simple “yes”, or “no”, I will assume that the highlighted statement above indicates that you think that child marriage, in this day and age, is an appropriate practice.To that, I say: Shame on you!
Earlier you said:
Quote The problem here is you are thinking of sex and not marriage, marriage and sex are two different things entirely and as far as sex goes two children are married and they decided to have sex how is that wrong? No, the problem here is any kind of marriage involving children. Children who can not decide for themselves, and are not at an age where they are capable of making such life altering decisions, should not be put in such situations. To do so is child abuse, plain and simple.
Who in their right mind thinks that two 8 yr olds should be able to get married and have sex (which apparently you think is reasonable)? Now, much worse, who thinks that a 40 yr old should be able to marry an 8 yr old and have sex with her?
You pretend like it's not about sex but the defining characteristic of a marriage relationship is the sexual nature of it (versus the platonic nature of all other “friendships”).
You also wrote earlier:
Quote Once again it is your imagination of an adult brute banging on an underdeveloped infant, this has more to do with your own lusts and desires than anything in reality. That image never even crossed my mind. Why did it cross yours?
My objection has nothing to do with whether or not the sex act is physically non-damaging. It has to do with the inherent abuse of subjecting a child to such very adult decisions, along with the psychological damage that will come along with that decision.
You also wrote:
Quote Yet, everyday you give thumbs up to the 40 year old that catches a 19 year old prize of a wife it's really interesting and you wouldn't even care if the 40 year old married the 19 year old. No, I don't.
While it's none of my business what two adults decide to do, I think that a 40 yr old married to a 19 yr old is silly and very unlikely to work out long term.
You asked:
Quote What is the appropriate age difference to you in marriage? Depends on the two people involved, but as long as they are both adults, it's up to them to figure out what makes sense.
You also asked:
Quote By the way is it appropriate for you to be friends with a five year old child? If by “friend” you mean a peer who plays with the 5 yr old at the 5 yr olds level, then no. Adults are not children, and when they form relationships with children that are more peer-to-peer than mentor-to-peer, it's creepy and highly suspicious.
If on the other hand, by “friend”, you mean a friendly influence in the child's life who understands that he is not on the same level as the child and maintains appropriate boundaries, then yes.
Please don't tell me that you treat relationships with 5 yr olds the same as you would treat your relationships with other adults.
Quote So what do you say about this? and if you disagree with the Bible and are an atheist what grounds can an atheist have on morality if you believe in nature and evolution no animal on the planet waits to reach adulthood before it engages in intercourse First of all, animals at least wait until they reach puberty, but we're talking about children under 11 here!
Secondly, as I have explained to you before, all morality is relational. The first principle of relational ethics is not to do physical or mental harm to another human being, and child marriage represents both a physical and a mental harm. It's also a form of slavery since these kinds of relationships are generally involuntary on the child's part and often result in a permanent inability of the child to be able to choose how to live her life.
It's the worst kind of throwback to 15th century thinking: 40 yr old men can decide for 8 yr old girls what they will do and be for the rest of their lives. If you don't see a problem with that, then that explains a lot about why you cherish the teachings of the bible and the koran so much.
Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Sep. 11 2012,09:12) Quote (bodhitharta @ Sep. 11 2012,00:28) There is nothing to condone or condemn the fact is it is not forbidden in the Bible and in-fact the Bible suggests it is fine. Numbers 31:18
But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.This is not in the Quran so you see any true BIBLE BELIEVER cannot dispute this.
So what do you say about this? and if you disagree with the Bible and are an atheist what grounds can an atheist have on morality if you believe in nature and evolution no animal on the planet waits to reach adulthood before it engages in intercourse
Since you refuse to give a simple “yes”, or “no”, I will assume that the highlighted statement above indicates that you think that child marriage, in this day and age, is an appropriate practice.To that, I say: Shame on you!
Earlier you said:
Quote The problem here is you are thinking of sex and not marriage, marriage and sex are two different things entirely and as far as sex goes two children are married and they decided to have sex how is that wrong? No, the problem here is any kind of marriage involving children. Children who can not decide for themselves, and are not at an age where they are capable of making such life altering decisions, should not be put in such situations. To do so is child abuse, plain and simple.
Who in their right mind thinks that two 8 yr olds should be able to get married and have sex (which apparently you think is reasonable)? Now, much worse, who thinks that a 40 yr old should be able to marry an 8 yr old and have sex with her?
You pretend like it's not about sex but the defining characteristic of a marriage relationship is the sexual nature of it (versus the platonic nature of all other “friendships”).
You also wrote earlier:
Quote Once again it is your imagination of an adult brute banging on an underdeveloped infant, this has more to do with your own lusts and desires than anything in reality. That image never even crossed my mind. Why did it cross yours?
My objection has nothing to do with whether or not the sex act is physically non-damaging. It has to do with the inherent abuse of subjecting a child to such very adult decisions, along with the psychological damage that will come along with that decision.
You also wrote:
Quote Yet, everyday you give thumbs up to the 40 year old that catches a 19 year old prize of a wife it's really interesting and you wouldn't even care if the 40 year old married the 19 year old. No, I don't.
While it's none of my business what two adults decide to do, I think that a 40 yr old married to a 19 yr old is silly and very unlikely to work out long term.
You asked:
Quote What is the appropriate age difference to you in marriage? Depends on the two people involved, but as long as they are both adults, it's up to them to figure out what makes sense.
You also asked:
Quote By the way is it appropriate for you to be friends with a five year old child? If by “friend” you mean a peer who plays with the 5 yr old at the 5 yr olds level, then no. Adults are not children, and when they form relationships with children that are more peer-to-peer than mentor-to-peer, it's creepy and highly suspicious.
If on the other hand, by “friend”, you mean a friendly influence in the child's life who understands that he is not on the same level as the child and maintains appropriate boundaries, then yes.
Please don't tell me that you treat relationships with 5 yr olds the same as you would treat your relationships with other adults.
Quote So what do you say about this? and if you disagree with the Bible and are an atheist what grounds can an atheist have on morality if you believe in nature and evolution no animal on the planet waits to reach adulthood before it engages in intercourse First of all, animals at least wait until they reach puberty, but we're talking about children under 11 here!
Secondly, as I have explained to you before, all morality is relational. The first principle of relational ethics is not to do physical or mental harm to another human being, and child marriage represents both a physical and a mental harm. It's also a form of slavery since these kinds of relationships are generally involuntary on the child's part and often result in a permanent inability of the child to be able to choose how to live her life.
It's the worst kind of throwback to 15th century thinking: 40 yr old men can decide for 8 yr old girls what they will do and be for the rest of their lives. If you don't see a problem with that, then that explains a lot about why you cherish the teachings of the bible and the koran so much.
First of all I did answer your question but you did not tell me what you think of the Biblical verse that condones it.There is no such shame on me and you haveyet to prove anything shameful about Marriage(Any Marriage) in and of itself.
You are simply asserting what “You Feel” not anything substantial. If you say that no wife of any age should be abused then we agree but if you say that Marriage has to only take place according to a certain age I say you have not shown why that would be the case other than your opinion and your appeal to Modernity in which Homosexuality is accepted as legitimate Marriage and most likely you agree or at least your argument supports Gay Marriage because it is 21st century thinking.
Then you lied and said the image of an older man banging on an underdeveloped infant never crossed your mind and of course it did if it didn't you wouldn't assume it to be the case.
I asked you the appropiate ages and you backed off and said as long as they are adults well is 13 an adult? In Jewish Culture that is the age a boy becomes a man so is it okay for two 13 year old children to be married?
Quote (bodhitharta @ Sep. 11 2012,10:01) First of all I did answer your question but you did not tell me what you think of the Biblical verse that condones it.
The bible is no better than the Koran. What difference does it make what either one of them says about ethical matters?Quote There is no such shame on me and you haveyet to prove anything shameful about Marriage(Any Marriage) in and of itself. I think that I clearly explained that child marriage is both abusive and a form of slavery. Involuntary marriage is slavery. You may dispute my reasoning on that, but I think that I was pretty clear on what I find shameful about it.
Of course, you have expressed support for slavery in the past … .
Quote You are simply asserting what “You Feel” not anything substantial. If you say that no wife of any age should be abused then we agree but if you say that Marriage has to only take place according to a certain age I say you have not shown why that would be the case other than your opinion and your appeal to Modernity in which Homosexuality is accepted as legitimate Marriage and most likely you agree or at least your argument supports Gay Marriage because it is 21st century thinking. I stated quite clearly that children are not of an age where they can make such life altering decisions for themselves, and in many cases, they aren't even given the choice, (i.e. child marriage = slavery). That is why I said that it is inherently abusive for adults to impose such things on children.
Quote Then you lied and said the image of an older man banging on an underdeveloped infant never crossed your mind and of course it did if it didn't you wouldn't assume it to be the case. Before you accuse someone of lying, you better be damned sure of what you are saying.
Show me where I mention anything about this until after you brought it up. If you can't, you should be ashamed of yourself for such careless slander, and you should publicly correct your mistake.
This kind of stuff really shows your character.
Quote I asked you the appropiate ages and you backed off and said as long as they are adults well is 13 an adult? In Jewish Culture that is the age a boy becomes a man so is it okay for two 13 year old children to be married? If you notice, in all of my posts, I have referred to children who are pre-pubescent, because they are clearly still children. I am not of the opinion that there is an exact age when one becomes an adult. Once an individual gets through puberty, there are a number of factors that contribute to when they truly become an adult, but that's not really relevant here since we have been discussing 8 yr olds throughout this conversation.
You, on the other hand, seem to think it's perfectly reasonable for an 8 yr old to be having sex, and you have the temerity not to be ashamed of that opinion.
Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 11 2012,00:59) Hi BD, Islam is abusive to human rights as it condones slavery
and is abusive to the desires of women. (see Daniel 11:37)
The same could be said of Christianity and the bible. (See Leviticus 25:45-46 and 1 Corinthians 14:34.)Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Sep. 12 2012,02:18) Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 11 2012,00:59) Hi BD, Islam is abusive to human rights as it condones slavery
and is abusive to the desires of women. (see Daniel 11:37)
The same could be said of Christianity and the bible. (See Leviticus 25:45-46 and 1 Corinthians 14:34.)
Now we are getting somewhere as you are making it clear that your argument is not a religious one, so what Moral base are you launching your attack from if there is no God then surely there are no Moral absolutes and if you say there are where do they originate from? If you say society then you have alreadu clearly admitted that there are societies that find child marriage to be Moral so exactly where is your point of view originating from?By the way WIT
This is in the debate forum exactly who are you debating with because you can formally debate me, let's get er done.
Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Sep. 12 2012,02:18) Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 11 2012,00:59) Hi BD, Islam is abusive to human rights as it condones slavery
and is abusive to the desires of women. (see Daniel 11:37)
The same could be said of Christianity and the bible. (See Leviticus 25:45-46 and 1 Corinthians 14:34.)
Hi WIT,Preventing outbursts in an assembly is hardly abusive, why would you think otherwise?
Do you know of any accounts of Israelis owning slaves, or this just another irrelevant post against Christianity?
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)bodhitharta,
Nice try, but you need to address the following before we continue discussing anything.
You wrote:
Quote Then you lied and said the image of an older man banging on an underdeveloped infant never crossed your mind and of course it did if it didn't you wouldn't assume it to be the case. I responded:
Quote Before you accuse someone of lying, you better be damned sure of what you are saying. Show me where I mention anything about this until after you brought it up. If you can't, you should be ashamed of yourself for such careless slander, and you should publicly correct your mistake.
Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 12 2012,16:08) Preventing outbursts in an assembly is hardly abusive, why would you think otherwise?
Preventing outbursts or silencing women?If this passage is about “prevent outbursts”, why does it read, “Let your women keep silent…” as opposed to, “Let no one speak out of turn …”, or something along those lines?
You're not fooling anyone, Ed.
Quote Do you know of any accounts of Israelis owning slaves, or this just another irrelevant post against Christianity? First of all, Leviticus 25:45-46 alone is enough evidence that Israelis owned slaves, but just for good measure, let's add in a line from the Holy Wikipedia:
Quote Like their Christian and Muslim neighbors, Jews owned slaves and participated in the slave trade. Oh, and how about one more from a news article:
Quote The US State Department divides countries into three tiers. Tier 1 is for countries that have successfully implemented measures to control trafficking (most Western countries fall into this category). Tier 2 is for countries that are trying to eradicate this modern day slavery but still fail to meet the necessary standards. Tier 3 is reserved for countries that have not addressed the issue at the most basic level. In 2006, Israel was on the US State Department's Watch List for people trafficking.
“This position falls between Tier 2 and Tier 3. The US applies economic sanctions to those countries which fall into Tier 3, but as we have a strong economic relationship with the US, Israel was given a warning and placed in a slightly higher category,” said Lewkowicz.
Yes, Ed, the bible condones slavery, and anyone who isn't simply blindly defending the bible at all costs, (like you are), can see that quite clearly.
Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 12 2012,21:08) Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Sep. 12 2012,02:18) Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 11 2012,00:59) Hi BD, Islam is abusive to human rights as it condones slavery
and is abusive to the desires of women. (see Daniel 11:37)
The same could be said of Christianity and the bible. (See Leviticus 25:45-46 and 1 Corinthians 14:34.)
Hi WIT,Preventing outbursts in an assembly is hardly abusive, why would you think otherwise?
Do you know of any accounts of Israelis owning slaves, or this just another irrelevant post against Christianity?
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
Hi WIT,It is also written: “there is made of necessity a change also of the law.” (Heb 7:12)
עד (Joshua 22:34) Ed (Witness)
Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 13 2012,02:02) Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 12 2012,21:08) Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Sep. 12 2012,02:18) Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 11 2012,00:59) Hi BD, Islam is abusive to human rights as it condones slavery
and is abusive to the desires of women. (see Daniel 11:37)
The same could be said of Christianity and the bible. (See Leviticus 25:45-46 and 1 Corinthians 14:34.)
Hi WIT,Preventing outbursts in an assembly is hardly abusive, why would you think otherwise?
Do you know of any accounts of Israelis owning slaves, or this just another irrelevant post against Christianity?
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
Hi WIT,It is also written: “there is made of necessity a change also of the law.” (Heb 7:12)
עד (Joshua 22:34) Ed (Witness)
Thirteenth Amendment to the United States ConstitutionEd,
Got it.
The bible is filled with bad laws that made it necessary to amend it, just like the US Constitution needs amendments to correct the mistakes and oversights of the men who originally wrote it.
Hhhmm, I wonder if that means the laws in the bible were really just written by ancient men with an ancient understanding of morality?
Nah, it's more likely that “God” just made a bunch of mistakes.
Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Sep. 13 2012,02:53) Ed, Got it.
The bible is filled with bad laws that made it necessary to amend it, just like the US Constitution needs amendments to correct the mistakes and oversights of the men who originally wrote it.
Hhhmm, I wonder if that means the laws in the bible were really just written by ancient men with an ancient understanding of morality?
Nah, it's more likely that “God” just made a bunch of mistakes.
Hi WIT,Have you not considered that it was the correct law for that time in Earths history?
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)Ed,
OK, I'll consider it.
According to the bible, Israel was intended to be a shining light on a hill for all the world to see how good “God's” ways were versus the “ways of man”. If slavery was part of that shining example – and it was – then I'd have to mark the whole thing down as a really bad example of how a “godly” society should behave, regardless of the time period.
Also, there is never a time in our history when making a rape victim spend the rest of her life with her rapist could have possibly been right.
This concludes my time of consideration.
By the way, Ed, are you suggesting that morals are relative and not absolute, (e.g. allowing for different ethical standards in different time periods)?
Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Sep. 13 2012,07:22) By the way, Ed, are you suggesting that morals are relative and not absolute, (e.g. allowing for different ethical standards in different time periods)?
Hi WIT,Morality comes from YHVH.
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)Quote Morality comes from YHVH. Who apparently can't make up his mind from one generation to the next about what is right and what is wrong.
Oh well. Perfection is so hard to maintain!
Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Sep. 13 2012,01:37) bodhitharta, Nice try, but you need to address the following before we continue discussing anything.
You wrote:
Quote Then you lied and said the image of an older man banging on an underdeveloped infant never crossed your mind and of course it did if it didn't you wouldn't assume it to be the case. I responded:
Quote Before you accuse someone of lying, you better be damned sure of what you are saying. Show me where I mention anything about this until after you brought it up. If you can't, you should be ashamed of yourself for such careless slander, and you should publicly correct your mistake.
You indeed did say that you found it perverted and wrong for an older man to marry a child and the reason is “sexual abuse” according to you so what did you mean by sexual abuse unless you imagined what it would be?
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