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Nick,
As I stated previously I have not looked into all the witnesses you have mentioned. You have asked some good questions.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 20 2012,08:31) Hi KW Mt 17
1And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,2And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.
3And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.
4Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.
So Peter made the offer before any cloud was recorded as being there.
It was not accepted and probably came from his human view.Jesus was filled with light-the same is promised to us.
HOW DID THEY RECOGNISE THE PROPHETS?
Quote HOW DID THEY RECOGNISE THE PROPHETS? LOL!
Good get!
Indeed, Jesus NEVER validated the apostles personal opinion or assumption about who these celestial beings were that Jesus was conversing with. They just assumed they knew. Jesus neither confirmed nor denied.
We now know from the Urantia revelation who the beings were:
“When the three had been fast asleep for about half an hour, they were suddenly awakened by a near-by crackling sound, and much to their amazement and consternation, on looking about them, they beheld Jesus in intimate converse with two brilliant beings clothed in the habiliments of the light of the celestial world. And Jesus’ face and form shone with the luminosity of a heavenly light. These three conversed in a strange language, but from certain things said, Peter erroneously conjectured that the beings with Jesus were Moses and Elijah; in reality, they were Gabriel and the Father Melchizedek. The physical controllers had arranged for the apostles to witness this scene because of Jesus’ request.” UB 1955
Colter
Kerwin…………Scriptures say non have risen except Jesus. I believe Nick is right in this brother. A vision or dream can be mistaken for an actual event and remember Jesus had Just a few day before said there were some who would not see death until the see the Kingdom of God coming with glory. This event that took place was just a preview of what will happen in the future. IMO
peace and love to you and yours……………………………………………….gene
Hi GB,
There were several witnesses confirming the event. Men do not share dreams or visions.
Peter was very taken by what happened and mentioned it in his second letter.Colter the book of folly you offer cannot correct the wisdom of God.
Quote (kerwin @ April 19 2012,14:13) Deuteronomy 34
King James Version (KJV)5So Moses the servant of the LORD died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the LORD. 6And he buried him in a valley in the land of Moab, over against Bethpeor: but no man knoweth of his sepulchre unto this day. 7And Moses was an hundred and twenty years old when he died: his eye was not dim, nor his natural force abated.
Mosses died, was buried, but his tomb was not found, even though they knew where he was buried.
Jude 1
King James Version (KJV)9Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.
The Devil and a servant of God contended over the body; not the soul; of Moses.
Matthew 17
King James Version (KJV)1And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,
2And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.
3And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.
4Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.Peter offered to build a tabernacle each for Jesus, Moses, and Elijah in response to something said. Ghosts do not require shelters.
John 3:13
King James Version (KJV)
13And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.This passage is hard to understand and so confuses many. For example the Son of man is both in heaven and has come down from heaven. How can one man be physically in two places? Since one man cannot it is obvious not speaking of the physical side of Jesus. Instead it is speaking of the spiritual side which is simultaneously in heaven and on earth for Jesus is in Yahweh, and Yahweh is in Jesus. In the same manner it is speaking of the spiritual side of man ascending and not the physical. Who does not acknowledge that Jesus is the way to God?
Even Moses had to go through Jesus to get to God, though unlike us he looked forward to a time to come. The body of Moses was physically caught up to heaven after Satan’s attempt to keep it on earth where its burial place would be known. It was transformed to a spiritual body of flesh and bone when God freed it of its bondage to decay. Moses’ soul returned to his new superior body in which he appeared later to Jesus.
Hi KW,
So you ASSUME Because the body of Moses has not been found on earth IT IS NOT HERE?You ASSUME because Michael contested the ownership of the body of Moses with the devil that it was taken to HEAVEN?
Why do you rely so much on ASSUMPTION?
Nick,
I believe when the Word of God states Moses' grave was not found on earth then it was not found on earth.
Enoch and Elijah were not found.
Both Satan and Michael wanted possession of Moses body. This World is Satan's while Michael is of heaven.
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ April 20 2012,19:34) Kerwin…………Scriptures say non have risen except Jesus. I believe Nick is right in this brother. A vision or dream can be mistaken for an actual event and remember Jesus had Just a few day before said there were some who would not see death until the see the Kingdom of God coming with glory. This event that took place was just a preview of what will happen in the future. IMO peace and love to you and yours……………………………………………….gene
Gene,You mis-remember John 3:13. Perhaps we should go over it.
Kerwin……….If Jesus was not the FIRST one RAISED from the DEAD into the KINGDOM of GOD then we all have been lied to RIGHT? Being First eliminates all others Kerwin. Remember “HE IS THE firstborn of “MANY” Brethern” Now you can't be FIRST is there are already other who have Been Right? .
peace and love Kerwin……………………………………………gene
Quote (kerwin @ April 21 2012,12:42) Nick, I believe when the Word of God states Moses' grave was not found on earth then it was not found on earth.
Enoch and Elijah were not found.
Both Satan and Michael wanted possession of Moses body. This World is Satan's while Michael is of heaven.
Hi KW,
Adding assumptions to assumptions does not clarify matters.Quote (Gene Balthrop @ April 21 2012,11:38) Kerwin……….If Jesus was not the FIRST one RAISED from the DEAD into the KINGDOM of GOD then we all have been lied to RIGHT? Being First eliminates all others Kerwin. Remember “HE IS THE firstborn of “MANY” Brethern” Now you can't be FIRST is there are already other who have Been Right? . peace and love Kerwin……………………………………………gene
Gene,Don't forget who God is as even the angels of God were subjected to Jesus and Jesus became their way to God; just as the Spirit of Christ has always been the only way.
Quote (kerwin @ April 21 2012,19:35) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ April 21 2012,11:38) Kerwin……….If Jesus was not the FIRST one RAISED from the DEAD into the KINGDOM of GOD then we all have been lied to RIGHT? Being First eliminates all others Kerwin. Remember “HE IS THE firstborn of “MANY” Brethern” Now you can't be FIRST is there are already other who have Been Right? . peace and love Kerwin……………………………………………gene
Gene,Don't forget who God is as even the angels of God were subjected to Jesus and Jesus became their way to God; just as the Spirit of Christ has always been the only way.
Kerwin………..Cant you see how you are adding another perspective to what i said and have not dealt with what i have wrote brother. Jesus could not have been the first raised from the dead to eternal life if others were already. IMOpeace and love to you and yours Kerwin…………………………..gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ April 21 2012,20:06)
Kerwin………..Cant you see how you are adding another perspective to what i said and have not dealt with what i have wrote brother. Jesus could not have been the first raised from the dead to eternal life if others were already. IMOpeace and love to you and yours Kerwin…………………………..gene
Gene,Jesus is not the first raised to raised to eternal life; he is the one by whom all others are raised to life. A few, like the angels, entered beforehand by faith in him, and then subjected themselves to Jesus when he came into the world.
God decided to that mercy to those few, just as he showed it later to Jesus. Their purpose is demonstrate that whether alive or dead; those that please God inherit eternal life.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 21 2012,14:43) Hi KW,
The angels of God need a way to God?
Nick,Though they are sons they also submitted themselves to Jesus. God and Jesus are in them and they are in God and Jesus just as is true with believers. They had no need to repent but were told to submit themselves to him when he came into the world.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 21 2012,11:42) Quote (kerwin @ April 21 2012,12:42) Nick, I believe when the Word of God states Moses' grave was not found on earth then it was not found on earth.
Enoch and Elijah were not found.
Both Satan and Michael wanted possession of Moses body. This World is Satan's while Michael is of heaven.
Hi KW,
Adding assumptions to assumptions does not clarify matters.
Nick,I merely laid out the facts and did not make any conclusions except stating that I believe Scripture is God breathed. Which of those facts do you dispute.
Quote (kerwin @ April 22 2012,18:04) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ April 21 2012,20:06)
Kerwin………..Cant you see how you are adding another perspective to what i said and have not dealt with what i have wrote brother. Jesus could not have been the first raised from the dead to eternal life if others were already. IMOpeace and love to you and yours Kerwin…………………………..gene
Gene,Jesus is not the first raised to raised to eternal life; he is the one by whom all others are raised to life. A few, like the angels, entered beforehand by faith in him, and then subjected themselves to Jesus when he came into the world.
God decided to that mercy to those few, just as he showed it later to Jesus. Their purpose is demonstrate that whether alive or dead; those that please God inherit eternal life.
Kerwin……….Brother cant you see that if Jesus was the firstborn from the dead into eternal life as scriptures say he was , then no other human being could have been raised from the grave before him? this is simple to understand brother. IMOpeace and love to you and yours Kerwin………………………gene
Kerwin………….This might help…….>Acts 2:28..> Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both “DEAD” and “BURIED” and his SEPULCHER is with us unto this day.
Now Kerwin if anyone would have been resurrected it would have been David the Apple of GOD eye Right?. But no he was and is still dead.
Another passing point Kerwin about the soul still living after a person is dead.
Acts 2:26……> Therefore did my heart rejouce and my tongue was glad; moreover also NOW NOTICE THIS Kerwin, my “FLESH” shall rest in hope: verse 27, Because thou wilt not leave my “SOUL in HELL or grave. ……>
Kerwin did you notice it does not say his soul was apart from his flesh but indicates they we in fact one connected together even in the grave. and we also now it say the dead know nothing there thought are perished in the grave. Just thought that might help brother.
Peace and love to you and yours brother……………….gene
Hi:
It appears that the purpose of the transfiguration was to confirm to the disciples what God had revealed to them in Matthew 16, that is, “that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the Living God”. After this episode, God left them no doubt as to Jesus Identity, and that he would rise from the dead.
In Matthew 16 Jesus was asking the disciples:
Quote Mat 16:13 ¶ When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am? And they responded:
Quote Mat 16:14 And they said, Some [say that thou art] John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets. But after God spoke from the cloud saying, “this is my beloved Son hear ye him”, we have the following:
Quote Mat 17:9 And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead. Mat 17:10 And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come?
Mat 17:11 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things.
Mat 17:12 But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.
Mat 17:13 Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist.
Love in Christ,
MartyHi:
But Jesus also stated that this was a vision, and so, to show that Moses, who represents those under the Law, and Elijah who represents era of the prophets would be transfigured along with him after the resurrection? This was not something that had already occured.He said:
Quote Mat 17:9 And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead. I am not sure what Jude is referring when he speaks about the disputation concerning the body of Moses. There does not seem to be enough scripture to draw any firm conclusions.
Love in Christ,
Marty
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