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Hi P,
And Jesus told the Jews the Father was the one they called God[jn8.54]
Nothing has changed since Jesus taught us about his Father God.Hi PD
So is this your writings or is it the writings of another? It seems to like a quote from <a href="http://books.google.com/books?id=i4YVAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA178&lpg=PA178&dq=Because+there+is+no+evidence+to+prove+that+the+first+converts+to+Christianity+ever+incurre
d+the+imputation+of+idolatry+from+the+Jews,+as+they+must+have+done+had+they+believed+and+t
aught+that+the+Son,+as+well+as+the+Father,+is+Jehovah%3B+while+it+is+notorious+that+this+imputation+has+been+among+the+most+common+of+the+Jewish
+reproaches+against+Christians,+since+the+Trinity+became+a+doctrine+of+the+Church.&source=bl&ots=Kfmm8gYqWb&sig=eXtNTC87v-UUeCRU0e9t4JU8RQk&hl=en&ei=oAxAStSGF4eNtgfA4vm0Bg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1″ target=”_blank”>here…If your material is borrowed and edited, then isn't it fair to show the source and give credit where credit is due?
Hopefully this is not the case.
BTW thanks for your concern for my wife. But I did thank everyone for the prayers and gave a report of her progress after the surgery in the prayer thread. She is doing fine, but just sore.
Blessings WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 23 2009,11:21) Hi PD So is this your writings or is it the writings of another? It seems to like a quote from <a href="http://books.google.com/books?id=i4YVAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA178&lpg=PA178&dq=Because+there+is+no+evidence+to+prove+that+the+first+converts+to+Christianity+ever+incurre
d+the+imputation+of+idolatry+from+the+Jews,+as+they+must+have+done+had+they+believed+and+t
aught+that+the+Son,+as+well+as+the+Father,+is+Jehovah%3B+while+it+is+notorious+that+this+imputation+has+been+among+the+most+common+of+the+Jewish
+reproaches+against+Christians,+since+the+Trinity+became+a+doctrine+of+the+Church.&source=bl&ots=Kfmm8gYqWb&sig=eXtNTC87v-UUeCRU0e9t4JU8RQk&hl=en&ei=oAxAStSGF4eNtgfA4vm0Bg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1″ target=”_blank”>here…
If your material is borrowed and edited, then isn't it fair to show the source and give credit where credit is due?
Hopefully this is not the case.
BTW thanks for your concern for my wife. But I did thank everyone for the prayers and gave a report of her progress after the surgery in the prayer thread. She is doing fine, but just sore.
Blessings WJ
wouldn't it have been easier to simply dispute his post then to be concerned where he got it from since all the material is biblical?What I am saying is it is simply a collection of bible scriptures to prove the point.
Paladin……….Hard to imagine anyone seeing it any different. What more can be said?. IMO
Peace and love to you and yours brother…………………………..gene
Paladin said:
Quote BECAUSE JEHOVAH ESTABLISHES HIMSELF TO BE A FIRST-PERSON-SINGULAR IDENTITY
1) Gen 17:1
God establishes his identity for Abraham, as Moses recorded; “And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, {H} Jehovah [the LORD] appeared to Abram, and said unto him, {G} egw eimi o` theos sou ; walk before me, and be thou perfect.”[Gen 17:1]Egw is first-person-singular personal pronoun “I”
eimi is first-person-singular verb “am”And Abraham is addressed as a singular-person entity.
sou is second person-singular pronoun “you”Paladin accepts what he likes and throws out the rest of scripture. Jehovah also referred to Himself in the first person plural.
Quote And Jehovah said…Come, let US go down and there confuse their language (Gen. 11:5-7) Paladin should have checked the Greek Septuagint here.
Paladin said:
Quote BECAUSE GOD ASSERTS HE IS A SINGLE PERSON BEING
2) Exo 3:14
A “being” who used “first-person-singular” pronouns to describe himself in Exo 3:14 –This has been answered several tmes already. In Genesis 1 we see that God speaks of Himself both in the singular and in the plural. He speaks about “Adam” in this way too. Here is another example from Scripture,
Quote Let Israel rejoice in His maker. Let the children of Zion be joyful in their king (Psalm 149:2) Israel is referred to both in the singular and in the plural. To deny the presence of plural unity in the Scriptures is deliberate.
thinker
Quote (bodhitharta @ June 22 2009,19:26) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 23 2009,11:21) Hi PD So is this your writings or is it the writings of another? It seems to like a quote from <a href="http://books.google.com/books?id=i4YVAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA178&lpg=PA178&dq=Because+there+is+no+evidence+to+prove+that+the+first+converts+to+Christianity+ever+incurre
d+the+imputation+of+idolatry+from+the+Jews,+as+they+must+have+done+had+they+believed+and+t
aught+that+the+Son,+as+well+as+the+Father,+is+Jehovah%3B+while+it+is+notorious+that+this+imputation+has+been+among+the+most+common+of+the+Jewish
+reproaches+against+Christians,+since+the+Trinity+became+a+doctrine+of+the+Church.&source=bl&ots=Kfmm8gYqWb&sig=eXtNTC87v-UUeCRU0e9t4JU8RQk&hl=en&ei=oAxAStSGF4eNtgfA4vm0Bg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1″ target=”_blank”>here…
If your material is borrowed and edited, then isn't it fair to show the source and give credit where credit is due?
Hopefully this is not the case.
BTW thanks for your concern for my wife. But I did thank everyone for the prayers and gave a report of her progress after the surgery in the prayer thread. She is doing fine, but just sore.
Blessings WJ
wouldn't it have been easier to simply dispute his post then to be concerned where he got it from since all the material is biblical?What I am saying is it is simply a collection of bible scriptures to prove the point.
Hi BDI do not have time to dispute it.
But why should I care if it is not his material!
Besides, none of the scripture mentioned in his post disproves the Trinitarian faith.
Phil 2:6:8 in light of all the scriptures he mentions explains them all.
And besides what his post doesn’t do is disprove the Unambiguous scriptures that call Jesus God, but simply says…
Quote (Paladin @ June 22 2009,18:24) BECAUSE OF MYSTERY, AND HIDDEN MEANING IN VERSES THAT CLAIM TO SUPPORT JESUS AS GOD.
99. Because, in a word, the supremacy of the Father, and the inferiority of the Son, is the simple, unembarrassed, and current doctrine of the Bible; whereas, that of their equality or identity is clothed in mystery, encumbered with difficulties, and dependent, at the best, upon few passages for support.
First of all Jesus plainly said that there were many other things that he wanted to tell his disciples but they were not able to bear it at that time.Secondly, because a thing may be mysterious to some doesn’t mean it isn't true. Paul speaks of the Mystery of Godliness as well as many mysteries. Do you think that Pd, you, or me or anyone else knows all the mysteries of an infinite God?
Besides all this, how many passages does it take for us to believe Jesus is God.
Titus 2:13 by itself shows unambiguously that Paul calls Jesus his Great God and Saviour. Not to mention the others that calls Jesus God.
PD is a Unitarian, and in fact it looks like the info he has posted here is almost word for word like the info that is found on my link which is a defense and almost a creed or confession of some sort for Unitarianism.
Therefore PD does not believe in the preexistence of Jesus Christ and that Jesus came in the likeness of sinful flesh, which according to John is the spirit of the antichrist.
Also just a couple of examples of the fallacy of the 100 reasons are…
Quote (Paladin @ June 22 2009,18:24)
BECAUSE GOD CANNOT SIT ON HIS OWN RIGHT HAND.
83. Because it is said, that, when he was received up into heaven, he “sat on the right hand of God,” Mark 16:19.
Most Translations use the term “Sat at the right hand of God”.This means “Equality with God”, for he is not above him nor beneath him but at his right hand, all power and authority given to him. In fact at this time it seems that Jesus is not even subject to the Father and will not be until all things are subject to him (Jesus) and then Jesus will subject himself to the Father that God may be all in all. Yet at this time Jesus is all in all. 1 Cor 15:24-28
Jesus has equality in nature with the Father for he is Omnipotent, and Omnipresent. These attributes of Gods nature are unique to God alone.
But as usual, Unitarians and Arians deny these facts and find pleasure in reducing Jesus to just being another mere man or anointed prophet. By this they fail to give the Son the same honour as they give the Father.
Quote (Paladin @ June 22 2009,18:24)
BECAUSE IF JESUS IS GOD SCRIPTURE IS FALSE
21) no man hath seen God at any time John 1:18
Then If Jesus is not God then scripture is false…No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; “only he has seen the Father“.
Just when did Jesus see the Father? It was before he came in the flesh and was born as a man.
Now watch for a huge attempt at apologetics to explain Jesus plain words away. Non-trinitarians are experts at explaining away scriptures like John 1:1, 18, 20:28, Acts 20:28, 2 Peter 1:1, Titus 2:13, Heb 1:9, Isa 9:6, rather than accepting them as they are. This is only a few without even mentioning the implied scriptures of his deity. Trinitarians do not have to explain away scriptures that say the Father is God and Jesus is God and the Holy Spirit is God. We take all the scriptural data as it is written.
Again, none of the scriptures PD or a Unitarian brings up is in conflict with the Trinitarian faith. We just accept them all without all the special pleading and inferences and explaining away what they say.
Either all the scriptures are true or you will find yourself on a slippery slope and begin accusing the translations and translators of corruption. If that is true then why do we even bother? For I can always claim bias or corruption when they do not agree with me. It would just be a waste of time.
Blessings WJ
Paladin said:
Quote BECAUSE GOD CANNOT SIT ON HIS OWN RIGHT HAND.
83. Because it is said, that, when he was received up into heaven, he “sat on the right hand of God,” Mark 16:19.Paladin's reasoning is circular. He assumes that God cannot be a plural unity and then proceeds from that assumption and concludes that God cannot sit on the right hand of God. But Psalm 110:5 unambiguously says otherwise,
Quote The LORD said to my Sovereign, “Sit at My right hand until I make Your ememies Your footstool”….The Lord (adonai) is at Your right hand (Psalm 110:1,5) Now there it is! David recoginized his Sovereign to be “Adonai” which the proper name for God. It means, “God is at your right hand. I can have a “man to man” discussion with Paladin. So God can have a God to God discourse, “Let US make man in OUR image.”
A man may have a man sit at his right hand. So God may have God sit at His right hand. And Psalm 110:5 says that this is the case,
Quote God (adonai) is at your right hand It is clear!
thinker
WorshippingJesus said:
Quote This means “Equality with God”, for he is not above him nor beneath him but at his right hand, all power and authority given to him. In fact at this time it seems that Jesus is not even subject to the Father and will not be until all things are subject to him (Jesus) and then Jesus will subject himself to the Father that God may be all in all. Yet at this time Jesus is all in all. WJ,
Exactly! The position at the right hand is equality and the unitarians won't accept this. Jesus said that He has ALL authority now.thinker
Quote (thethinker @ June 23 2009,13:03) WorshippingJesus said: Quote This means “Equality with God”, for he is not above him nor beneath him but at his right hand, all power and authority given to him. In fact at this time it seems that Jesus is not even subject to the Father and will not be until all things are subject to him (Jesus) and then Jesus will subject himself to the Father that God may be all in all. Yet at this time Jesus is all in all. WJ,
Exactly! The position at the right hand is equality and the unitarians won't accept this. Jesus said that He has ALL authority now.thinker
Hi thethiker and WJ:Quote 1Cr 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman [is] the man; and the head of Christ [is] God. Quote 1Ti 2:3 For this [is] good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
1Ti 2:5 For [there is] one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;Quote 1Cr 15:27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under [him, it is] manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
1Cr 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.Quote Jhn 15:1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
Jhn 15:2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every [branch] that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.Quote Psa 110:1 [[A Psalm of David.]] The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool. Love in Christ,
MartyMarty,
Is the woman less than the man? And it is Adonai at God's right hand (Psalm 110:5). Adonai is the proper name for God.thinker
Quote (thethinker @ June 23 2009,13:03) WorshippingJesus said: Quote This means “Equality with God”, for he is not above him nor beneath him but at his right hand, all power and authority given to him. In fact at this time it seems that Jesus is not even subject to the Father and will not be until all things are subject to him (Jesus) and then Jesus will subject himself to the Father that God may be all in all. Yet at this time Jesus is all in all. WJ,
Exactly! The position at the right hand is equality and the unitarians won't accept this. Jesus said that He has ALL authority now.thinker
Thinker,You believe in 2 Gods. If one thing equals another than there are two things.
Man and woman are a pair, right?
There unity is not in number.
Quote (thethinker @ June 23 2009,13:28) Marty,
Is the woman less than the man? And it is Adonai at God's right hand (Psalm 110:5). Adonai is the proper name for God.thinker
No, thethinker, the woman is not less than the man, but the Word of God is what we are obeying. Jesus is the head of the church, and was given that authority by God. He is not seeking to do his own will but the will of the Father.Quote Eph 4:4 [There is] one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; Eph 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who [is] above all(including Jesus), and through all, and in you all.
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (942767 @ June 23 2009,14:04) Quote (thethinker @ June 23 2009,13:28) Marty,
Is the woman less than the man? And it is Adonai at God's right hand (Psalm 110:5). Adonai is the proper name for God.thinker
No, thethinker, the woman is not less than the man, but the Word of God is what we are obeying. Jesus is the head of the church, and was given that authority by God. He is not seeking to do his own will but the will of the Father.Quote Eph 4:4 [There is] one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; Eph 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who [is] above all(including Jesus), and through all, and in you all.
Love in Christ,
Marty
Marty,
Unfortunately for you the parenthetical “(including Jesus)” is not in the text. In Colossians 3:11 Paul said that “Christ is ALL IN ALL.” Your reference to “one Lord” establishes the trinitarian faith for Paul said that every tongue must confess that Jesus is Lord.”If God is Lord and Jesus is Lord and there is only ONE Lord, then God is a plural unity. The Father and the Son constitute one Lord.
thinker
Quote (thethinker @ June 23 2009,13:03) WorshippingJesus said: Quote This means “Equality with God”, for he is not above him nor beneath him but at his right hand, all power and authority given to him. In fact at this time it seems that Jesus is not even subject to the Father and will not be until all things are subject to him (Jesus) and then Jesus will subject himself to the Father that God may be all in all. Yet at this time Jesus is all in all. WJ,
Exactly! The position at the right hand is equality and the unitarians won't accept this. Jesus said that He has ALL authority now.thinker
Quote (942767 @ June 22 2009,21:25) Hi thethiker and WJ: 1Cr 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman [is] the man; and the head of Christ [is] God.
Is the woman less human than the man? Bingo!Jesus took on the role of a servant to the Father when he subjected himself to being found in fashion as a man. Phil 2:6-8 But his Spirit is still the “Word”, God. John 1:1 In fact it is that same Spirit that dwells in us!
Quote (942767 @ June 22 2009,21:25) 1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
1Ti 2:5 For [there is] one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
Seriously Marty, look close at the scripture you quote. Do you see that Paul says in verse 3 God is our Saviour, now look in the same breath he says Jesus is the mediator, (or our Saviour).Now check your concordance and see how many times Paul call Jesus his Saviour and then compare with Titus 2:13 where Paul calls Jesus both his Great God and Saviour, which is unambiguous! Jesus said he and his Father are One, this is why they wanted to stone him. John 10
Quote (942767 @ June 22 2009,21:25) 1Cr 15:27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under [him, it is] manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
1Cr 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
Again Marty, look real close. Notice it says…“And when all things shall be subdued unto him (Jesus), THEN shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.”
Can you see it Marty? Jesus is not subject to the Father yet because all things are not under his feet yet.
Seems like a Parodox doesn't it? Well it is to the nontrinitarian.
Quote (942767 @ June 22 2009,21:25) Jhn 15:1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
Jhn 15:2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
Different roles in the Godhead, just as the Spirit has a different role.Is the Husbandman (Father) one with the Vine?
Quote (942767 @ June 22 2009,21:25) Psa 110:1 [[A Psalm of David.]] The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool. Love in Christ,
Marty
I think Jack has been over this one with you!Blessings WJ
Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 23 2009,03:30) No Paradox WJ,
God is one and Jesus is His Son.
No trinity
Hi NHOh, then you can explain why Jesus is not subject to the Father until all his enemies are under his feet, right?
Jesus has all Authority and Power NH. It seems you are not to happy about that but would rather see him as you and I are, just a mere man.
WJ
God is all that exists. Everything that is came from God the source of all. There can only be ONE! Jesus said he was ONE with God and prayed that we all would rise up through the Truth into ONENESS with them. Where there is ONE there is not two.There are billions of aspects of ONE but only ONE source of life! We are all in and from God finding the light of Truth to go home in God. We never left God. Only in our mind can we believe that for some reason you could be separated from God. Yet in Truth, everything is inclusive. There is no time or distance in the spirit. No up or down just an interconnection with the mind of God and returning to the source of love where we all came from. Higher and lower thought waves. Rising up is partaking of higher thought transfers in different dimensions. We all came from the top. Can we return? Peace, TK
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 23 2009,11:21) Hi PD So is this your writings or is it the writings of another? It seems to like a quote from <a href="http://books.google.com/books?id=i4YVAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA178&lpg=PA178&dq=Because+there+is+no+evidence+to+prove+that+the+first+converts+to+Christianity+ever+incurre
d+the+imputation+of+idolatry+from+the+Jews,+as+they+must+have+done+had+they+believed+and+t
aught+that+the+Son,+as+well+as+the+Father,+is+Jehovah%3B+while+it+is+notorious+that+this+imputation+has+been+among+the+most+common+of+the+Jewish
+reproaches+against+Christians,+since+the+Trinity+became+a+doctrine+of+the+Church.&source=bl&ots=Kfmm8gYqWb&sig=eXtNTC87v-UUeCRU0e9t4JU8RQk&hl=en&ei=oAxAStSGF4eNtgfA4vm0Bg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1″ target=”_blank”>here…
If your material is borrowed and edited, then isn't it fair to show the source and give credit where credit is due?
Hopefully this is not the case.
BTW thanks for your concern for my wife. But I did thank everyone for the prayers and gave a report of her progress after the surgery in the prayer thread. She is doing fine, but just sore.
Blessings WJ
Don't go totally phony on me WJ.I have been developing my own work for over sixty years. Why would you expect all Monotheists to post different position references when trinitarians all copy from the same source?
Which of your position posts is from original work? Which of the original manuscripts did you interpret and translate for your post? Where is your post where you determined originally for yourself, which books of the bible are authentic, and which are bogus?
Get real.
And no, I did not copy my work from anyone else. You really should quit with your wild accusations which have nothing to do with reality but are simply a blatant attempt to discredit me without having to respond to the post issues.
If you have any brains at all, you will begin with point one, and show from scripture why it can't be so. Otherwise, quit bellyaching. If you can't rebutt the issues, get off the thread.
I am tired of your constant attempt to discredit through slander. You have NO REASON for your constant discrediting attitude, other than your own inability to cope with the issues.
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